*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (7 Viewers)

[Abraham]

The way to curtail this movement is to allow a team to add a year to the contract for every two years the player was with them. And to eliminate sign and trades.

 

[Abraham]

The problem is the recent trend where they build a winner and the player leaves anyway.

Go ahead and name me all the superstar players that forced their way off of teams after they won a championship, or even made it to the NBA finals. I'm pretty sure it's a very, very short list. You put a legit championship contender together, guys aren't clamoring to leave.Anyway I don't know what you want here, no free agency? Free agency, but FAs can only sign with downtrodden teams unless they're the Lakers, Celtics, Knicks and Heat?

What's funny is, nobody on the Lakers is there on a sweetheart deal, it's not like they're getting bargains. Hell I don't recall too many shedding a ton of tears when Shaq forced his way out of L.A. But I guess that wouldn't support this nonsensical little guy argument.

They dont leave because they are already in Los Angeles, Boston, or Miami. Dirk resigned with Dallas because they could give him the most money. But chandler bolted. Horace grant left the bulls.

Grant and Chandler are superstars? Also, I was under the impression that Cuban wasn't going to pay market for Chandler anyway, why would he stay there?

Good point. To answer your question, no, Michael Jordan, Kobe, shaq, dincan, wade, and Hakeem never demanded trades. That covers the last twenty years of superstars who were champions, right?

 

[Captain Quinoa]

But that Cle one was just one of several. Like I said, they turned down some other deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable.

please list the impact, superstar, Lebron-saving players that did not come to Cleveland because Danny Ferry refused to trade DELONTE F###ING WEST.come on man.

p and s don't forget the Cavs getting screwed by Carlos See You Next Tuesday Boozer.

I don't have time now to go back over the NBA threads from seasons past, I'll try and dig it up eventually, but the Delonte West stuff is all documented in there.

take your time

Here you go: but I guess 2009 Shaq doesn't count. Since they landed him afterward and didn't win anything.

Cleveland Cavaliers and Phoenix Suns talking about Shaquille O'Neal trade again

by Brian Windhorst

Cleveland Plain Dealer

Sunday June 14, 2009According to a source, a sticking point was the Suns' interest in Delonte West, who at this point is nearly untouchable for the Cavs.

I don't get this. I'm not saying West sucks, and maybe he has a decent contract, but still - there's no rational world in which this guy is nearly untouchable if you think it's going to help you win a championship.

Still, the words Delonte West and untouchable are used in conjunction, which is the kind of poor management decision I'm talking about.

So your evidence that the Cavs and I quote "turned down some other ('several' even!) deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable" is that they did not want to include him in a trade for Shaq, a trade which they were able to consummate a whole ELEVEN DAYS later without including West - who was, per 'a source'- nearly untouchable. Wow.Good day, Sir.

 

[Gr00vus]

no, Michael Jordan, Kobe, shaq, dincan, wade, and Hakeem never demanded trades. That covers the last twenty years of superstars who were champions, right?

You forgot Dirk, Scotty probably counts too.

 

[mlball77]

Kings sign Marcus Thornton 5/$40M

it's difficult to gauge what constitutes a good contract in this new economy but locking up thornton is a good move by the Kings. he's a good scorer and bloomed for them as a starter.

As a Kings fan, I'm not bothered by this contract. It's the city of Sacramento and a struggling franchise that needs an arena built or will be moving... not an easy sell to FA's. -Anyway, after the draft, Westphal talked about using Evans, Thornton and Fridette in a 3-guard rotation (at the 1 and 2). I think that trio coulud be fun to watch.On another note, as rumored, the Kings have agreed to terms with Chuck Hayes (Sac Bee reports 4 years for $21 million).

 

[tommyGunZ]

Rumors that the Union told the NBA that if a CP3 trade isn't worked out by Monday, they will litigate.

 

[Abraham]

no, Michael Jordan, Kobe, shaq, dincan, wade, and Hakeem never demanded trades. That covers the last twenty years of superstars who were champions, right?

You forgot Dirk, Scotty probably counts too.

Dirk had just signed a new deal. Scotty left a year after winning his 6th ring.

 

[Gr00vus]

So your evidence that the Cavs and I quote "turned down some other ('several' even!) deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable" is that they did not want to include him in a trade for Shaq, a trade which they were able to consummate a whole ELEVEN DAYS later without including West - who was, per 'a source'- nearly untouchable. Wow.

The turned down a deal because they felt West was untouchable. That along with considering that the deal in question, which they did eventually complete, was one they probably shouldn't have pursued in the first place is indeed evidence supporting my contention that management wasn't all it could be at that point. Does that make you feel better now?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Gary Forbes to the Raps? Suck it, Groovus.

Pietrus and Forbes in the same day

 

[Captain Quinoa]

So your evidence that the Cavs and I quote "turned down some other ('several' even!) deals that would have helped because Delonte West was untouchable" is that they did not want to include him in a trade for Shaq, a trade which they were able to consummate a whole ELEVEN DAYS later without including West - who was, per 'a source'- nearly untouchable. Wow.

The turned down a deal because they felt West was untouchable. That along with considering that the deal in question, which they did eventually complete, was one they probably shouldn't have pursued in the first place is indeed evidence supporting my contention that management wasn't all it could be at that point. Does that make you feel better now?

I said good day!

 

[scoobygang]

Rumors that the Union told the NBA that if a CP3 trade isn't worked out by Monday, they will litigate.

I don't see how Paul has much of a case. The Hornets own his contract. He has no right to be a Laker in 2011. Even if this were some antitrust violation, he'd lack antitrust standing. The Lakers and the Rockets have a much better case, IMO.

 

[Gr00vus]

no, Michael Jordan, Kobe, shaq, dincan, wade, and Hakeem never demanded trades. That covers the last twenty years of superstars who were champions, right?

You forgot Dirk, Scotty probably counts too.

Dirk had just signed a new deal. Scotty left a year after winning his 6th ring.

So they didn't leave then. Got it, thanks.

 

[Gr00vus]

Gary Forbes to the Raps? Suck it, Groovus.

Pietrus and Forbes in the same day

XMas has come early to Toronto.

 

[Max Power]

looks like the Bulls are about to swing a trade for a Shooting guard. Possibly Crawford.

 

[Daywalker]

Rumors that the Union told the NBA that if a CP3 trade isn't worked out by Monday, they will litigate.

I don't see how Paul has much of a case. The Hornets own his contract. He has no right to be a Laker in 2011. Even if this were some antitrust violation, he'd lack antitrust standing. The Lakers and the Rockets have a much better case, IMO.

The owners as a group are dictating Paul's market value. Saying where he can go. They have usurped control to even offer him an extension at this point. This could cost Paul million's all because owners as a group are acting together.

 

[Voltaire]

looks like the Bulls are about to swing a trade for a Shooting guard. Possibly Crawford.

 

[Juxtatarot]

looks like the Bulls are about to swing a trade for a Shooting guard. Possibly Crawford.

Rip agreed to buyout with Pistons. Not amnestied so he's free to sign with anyone. Bulls certainly seem like an option. Bogans pulled from practice this afternoon -- could be part of a trade or maybe they are just declining his option.

 

[scoobygang]

Rumors that the Union told the NBA that if a CP3 trade isn't worked out by Monday, they will litigate.

I don't see how Paul has much of a case. The Hornets own his contract. He has no right to be a Laker in 2011. Even if this were some antitrust violation, he'd lack antitrust standing. The Lakers and the Rockets have a much better case, IMO.

The owners as a group are dictating Paul's market value. Saying where he can go. They have usurped control to even offer him an extension at this point. This could cost Paul million's all because owners as a group are acting together.

The owners of his contract are saying where he can go while he remains under contract with them. That is their right. This has little potential to cost Chris any money. He'll get a max deal as a free agent next year whether he spends this year with the Lakers or the Hornets.EDIT: Here's another way to look at this. All trades are "collusion" between two different teams. If this trade had gone through, would Lamar Odom have had an antitrust claim? Of course not.

 

[the moops]

Martin, Allen, Pierce, KG and Scola would look pretty nice.

Who is their point guard in this scenario?

 

[Eephus]

Martin, Allen, Pierce, KG and Scola would look pretty nice.

Who is their point guard in this scenario?

Doc Rivers

 

[DaveGrumbles]

This idea that the Lakers are such a well run organization is Kobe forced his way there. Shaq forced his way there. Phil Jackson only came because of Kobe and Shaq. Without those gifts the Lakers would be chumps. Their other moves have, by and large, sucked.If Kobe and Shaq had demanded trades to Cleveland, everyone would be talking about how great the Cavs organization is I guess.Let's not forget the total debacle surrounding Kobe where the Lakers almost alienated him to the point of Kobe demanding a trade.

Again, not an NBA guy, but I do remember other players and coaches on the Lakers. Names like Magic, Kareem, Riley come to mind. I'm sure there are more...

Kareem and Wilt both forced their way to LA to varying degrees. And like Shaq, none left teams that had problems make NBA finals and winning titles. The idea that the Lakers have been lucky to be in LA has some merit.

Is it conceivable that all these generations of players are 'forcing' their way to the Lakers because they believe the team is committed to winning? I mean I'm pretty sure they can afford to live where ever they want so location isn't the entire motivating factor. BTW that's if you believe the this 'forcing' myth in the first place.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

Number of different NBA teams that have won a Championship since 1967(1st Superbowl): 16

Number of different NFL teams that have won The Superbowl: 18

The parity in the NBA is terrible folks, just look at the NFL in comparison.

Tangent alert - how come I can't use that argument for baseball? Since 1967 there have been 20 different title winners....

You can. And that thread would probably go something like this: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=586796&hl=parity%20&st=0

 

[Popinski]

I don't think Paul to the Lakers should be entirely ruled out yet. And with Howard to the Nets looking less likely, the big 3 in LA is still possible.

 

[Abraham]

Stern isnt dumb enough to veto outright. There is bound to be some behind the scenes stuff to get the hornets another pick or something.

 

[Daywalker]

Rumors that the Union told the NBA that if a CP3 trade isn't worked out by Monday, they will litigate.

I don't see how Paul has much of a case. The Hornets own his contract. He has no right to be a Laker in 2011. Even if this were some antitrust violation, he'd lack antitrust standing. The Lakers and the Rockets have a much better case, IMO.

The owners as a group are dictating Paul's market value. Saying where he can go. They have usurped control to even offer him an extension at this point. This could cost Paul million's all because owners as a group are acting together.

The owners of his contract are saying where he can go while he remains under contract with them. That is their right. This has little potential to cost Chris any money. He'll get a max deal as a free agent next year whether he spends this year with the Lakers or the Hornets.EDIT: Here's another way to look at this. All trades are "collusion" between two different teams. If this trade had gone through, would Lamar Odom have had an antitrust claim? Of course not.

The 29 owners have shown they are in charge of the Hornets. Paul is being forced to negotiate with 29 owners as a whole. Pretty sure he can get more if he signs an extension before Jan 1. That aside, what if the 29 owners don't offer an extension and would prefer him to go on the open market so one of them could sign him to a lesser deal? Is that any crazier then what's transpired in the past 24 hours? More of a power grab? I don't think so.

 

[Max Power]

Stern isnt dumb enough to veto outright. There is bound to be some behind the scenes stuff to get the hornets another pick or something.

I thought it was mostly a money issue. This move takes the Lakers out of the Luxury tax range which mean less money paid out to smaller market owners. Then N.O. Increases its payroll which means less profit for the owners. so $$$ wise its not a good trade for the owners.

 

[Joe Summer]

Another devastating blow for Blazer nation: Greg Oden suffers setback, may not play this season

 

[Gr00vus]

Another devastating blow for Blazer nation: Greg Oden suffers setback, may not play this season

That's terrible, the bad luck that guy and that franchise have had recently is amazing.

 

[Max Power]

did he not pass his physical or just get hurt one day after passing it?

nmd...I clicked the link.

 

[Abraham]

Gasol left practice with an "undisclosed hamstring Injury"

Rockets board is blowing up with speculatiOn that stern wants some of Houston's young players instead of both martin and scola. But Houston will balk because they need to get rid of both to sign nene.

No idea how it would work to get it done, but nene, gasol, and martin would be a really good trio in Houston.

 

[Kev4029]

Gary Forbes to the Raps? Suck it, Groovus.

Hes a legit NBAer, he'll be better than the Nuggets starting shooting guard of..... oh.... everybody that played a minute of shooting guard for them is gone.

 

[Kev4029]

Another devastating blow for Blazer nation: Greg Oden suffers setback, may not play this season

:( Poor dude. I hope he can get it together someday.

 

[Popinski]

Gasol left practice with an "undisclosed hamstring Injury"

And Lamar Odom came to practice, met with Kupchak, and left shortly afterward. Paul to the Lakers will happen. The Lakers may just have to take on more contracts.

 

[Popinski]

Another devastating blow for Blazer nation: Greg Oden suffers setback, may not play this season

That's terrible, the bad luck that guy and that franchise have had recently is amazing.

Too bad about Oden. I was looking forward to him becoming a great defensive anchor in the league, something that has become rare these days.

 

[Gr00vus]

Gary Forbes to the Raps? Suck it, Groovus.

Hes a legit NBAer, he'll be better than the Nuggets starting shooting guard of..... oh.... everybody that played a minute of shooting guard for them is gone.

Don't worry, it seems like tons of washed up 2s are hitting the street every five minutes right now. Maybe The Nuggets could be a 4th team in the Paul deal and take Martin from the Rockets. Probably wouldn't have to give up much of anything.

 

[Gr00vus]

Gasol left practice with an "undisclosed hamstring Injury"

And Lamar Odom came to practice, met with Kupchak, and left shortly afterward. Paul to the Lakers will happen. The Lakers may just have to take on more contracts.

I think that would blow up the deal. It seems obvious that Kupchak has plans for that trade exception to likely bring back a PF from somewhere else.

 

[Gr00vus]

Gasol left practice with an "undisclosed hamstring Injury"

Rockets board is blowing up with speculatiOn that stern wants some of Houston's young players instead of both martin and scola. But Houston will balk because they need to get rid of both to sign nene.

No idea how it would work to get it done, but nene, gasol, and martin would be a really good trio in Houston.

Isn't he signing with the Nets?

 

[Kev4029]

Gary Forbes to the Raps? Suck it, Groovus.

Hes a legit NBAer, he'll be better than the Nuggets starting shooting guard of..... oh.... everybody that played a minute of shooting guard for them is gone.

Don't worry, it seems like tons of washed up 2s are hitting the street every five minutes right now. Maybe The Nuggets could be a 4th team in the Paul deal and take Martin from the Rockets. Probably wouldn't have to give up much of anything.

Well that could work out well, because they don't have much to give up. Not that this Forbes trade really has anything to do with this, but the Nuggets might be heading in significantly wrong direction this year.

 

[Gr00vus]

the Nuggets might be heading in significantly wrong direction this year.

That's too bad. They were fun to watch after the Anthony trade last year.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Number of different NBA teams that have won a Championship since 1967(1st Superbowl): 16Number of different NFL teams that have won The Superbowl: 18The parity in the NBA is terrible folks, just look at the NFL in comparison.

Tangent alert - how come I can't use that argument for baseball? Since 1967 there have been 20 different title winners....

You can. Personally I think all parity arguments are B.S. Some cities can support sports franchises better than others. That's just the way of the world. You want a league with more than 10 teams in it or not? If so you just have to deal with that reality, no salary cap, revenue sharing or franchise tag is going to resolve that. You can't legislate parity.It's hyperemphasized in hoops because it's a 5 man lineup with a 13 man roster. The dominant players are more dominant here than in the other major sports so it's even tougher to achieve "parity" no matter how hard you try.

And even harder when they all want to play with each other...

 

[Abraham]

If the rockets could get gasol without giving up Martin, that would be solid. Hell, give up Martin and bring back okafor.

 

[No. 16]

I just want to clear somethings up.

The ONLY reason the veto was actually executed was because the NBA "owns" the Hornets. Otherwise, Stern doesn't have the power to veto just any trade. Am I correct?

 

[Instinctive]

I just want to clear somethings up.The ONLY reason the veto was actually executed was because the NBA "owns" the Hornets. Otherwise, Stern doesn't have the power to veto just any trade. Am I correct?

afaik, yes

 

[No. 16]

I just want to clear somethings up.The ONLY reason the veto was actually executed was because the NBA "owns" the Hornets. Otherwise, Stern doesn't have the power to veto just any trade. Am I correct?

afaik, yes

Nice. Works for me.

 

[thecatch]

Kings will pay anyone $40M

I think petrie has lost his touch. Time to move on.

 

[timschochet]

It sounds like what's going to happen is that the Lakers are going to add some kind of sweetness to the deal (draft pick?) and then Stern will be able to save face. It will likely get done by Monday.

I think.

 

[No. 16]

Quite pleased with the rule changes this year.

NBA Rule Changes

NBA set to implement rule changes

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By Ric Bucher

ESPN The Magazine

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NBA vice president of basketball operations Stu Jackson confirmed Wednesday that several new rule interpretations will be a point of emphasis for the league's referees when the regular season begins on Dec. 25.

"Rip-through" moves, in which an offensive player swings the ball into a defender's outstretched arm and then attempts a shot once he has created contact, will be considered non-shooting fouls if the contact begins before the offensive player starts his shooting motion.

Also, on drives to the basket, a shooting foul will be called only if contact occurs after the offensive player has begun his shooting motion, not after he has initiated his leap toward the basket.

"Certain types of contact involving the shooter were all being called in his favor," Jackson said. "It doesn't look good for the game. There was a strong feeling that those types of plays were creating an ill-advised reward for the shooter, often with three free throws."

The league will also make traveling in the post and on the perimeter a point of emphasis, with a player hopping off of and landing on the same foot viewed as an automatic violation. Referees will also consider locking or clamping an opponent's arm or hand under the basket while battling for a rebound and discontinued or hesitation dribbles as automatic violations.

Several rule changes will also be introduced, most to shorten the overall length of games and speed up the final minutes of a contest:

• Substitutions will only be allowed before the final free throw of any trip to the line that is not for a technical or flagrant foul.

• Two horns will be sounded 15 seconds apart after every timeout. Teams whose players are not moving toward the court as soon as the second horn sounds will receive a delay-of-game warning.

• Instant replay will be utilized only during full timeouts, not 20-second timeouts, when necessary.

• Whether a player's foot is on the three-point line or midcourt line will be determined by where it last touched the floor, meaning a player could have a toe on the three-point line but if he leans back on his heels before he releases the ball a successful shot would be deemed a three-pointer.

• The eight-second backcourt violation will occur when the shot clock reaches 15 seconds, rather than 16.

The last rule is necessary because the 24-second shot clock will now be equipped to show 10ths for the final five seconds and work as a "true" clock. From a technical standpoint, the old shot clock began with 24.9 seconds and expired with .9 left. Now the clock will switch from 24 to 23 seconds after .1 second has expired.

Jackson said a survey of coaches determined when the shot clock would break into 10ths.

"We didn't want to run them for the whole 24 seconds and the consensus was, from a strategy standpoint, that the final five seconds were the most valuable," he said. "Before, you could have two seconds left on the shot clock but you wouldn't know if it was 2.9 or 2.1. That makes a big difference."

Referees also will be hyper-vigilant about defenders making contact with offensive players when they're in the air and fully extended attempting to score. In most cases, expect that kind of foul to draw a Flagrant Level 2, which is two free throws, possession of the ball and the defender being ejected.

"That type of contact was a trend last season and it's really dangerous," Jackson said.

Ric Bucher is a senior NBA writer for ESPN The Magazine.

 

[thecatch]

Kings will pay anyone $40M

I think petrie has lost his touch. Time to move on.

Thornton is only a 4 yr 31 million deal. I like that deal much better. I'll give Petrie some more rope.

 

[Abraham]

"Rip-through" moves, in which an offensive player swings the ball into a defender's outstretched arm and then attempts a shot once he has created contact, will be considered non-shooting fouls if the contact begins before the offensive player starts his shooting motion.Also, on drives to the basket, a shooting foul will be called only if contact occurs after the offensive player has begun his shooting motion, not after he has initiated his leap toward the basket.

So we can expect Paul Pierce's PPG to drop by half...

 

[the moops]

• The eight-second backcourt violation will occur when the shot clock reaches 15 seconds, rather than 16.

So the 8 second violation is actually 9 seconds. Makes total sense.