Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Wait, did you just qualify Mike Bibby as decent?
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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
- Start date
the moops
Footballguy
As a backup PG, he is decent
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
As compared to a high school girl?
the moops
Footballguy
I would take Wilcox, Daniels, Bass, Dooling over the NY bench. Probably right about the Lakers though
biggamer3
Footballguy
Dude besides for Bass the rest are all minimum contract players, and Bass might even start with Green out.Knicks have Shump, Douglas as legit NBA players and a bunch of scrubs, not much difference between the two. Looking at rosters, only the Nuggets and maybe the Pacers have legit benches though
the moops
Footballguy
Bass isn't starting over Kevin Garnett
biggamer3
Footballguy
Is Jermaine even healthy? If he isnt its KG at C and Bass at 4
the moops
Footballguy
Garnett will play some minutes at the 5, but it will mostly be a combination of O'Neal and Wilcox.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Jermaine played 17 mins today.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=311218028
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Now you're just shticking.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I'm actually surprised to see him on a roster this year, he is really really bad. I would probably say he is the worst defensive player in the NBA, not just at PG, but for any position. Hes not all that good offensively either because hes small and a pitiful athlete and he has trouble doing anything but hitting long jumpers.
Kev4029
Footballguy
But the most important skill for an NBA player is to score and he does that as well as nearly anybody in the NBA. Scoring 25.9 pp36 with a 60.1 TS% is ####### nuts as a guard, here is a list of every guard to EVER have a 60.0 TS% and average 25 points per 36 minutes(if anybody doesn't feel like looking, its Jordan 4x, Gervin x1, Walter Davis x2 and Martin). Clearly you don't recognize how effective he is at scoring, but the only player that scored more often in the entire NBA than Martin was Kobe and he did it with rare efficiency. Being the best scorer in the NBA makes up for all of his other short comings.
the moops
Footballguy
No it doesnt.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
A really good NBA guy to follow on Twitter is Harabalos Voulgaris. He is a degen NBA gambler that watches something like 900 games a year, has an insane database of information built up on the NBA, and is one of the few people to score multi-millions betting NBA lines, mostly O/U's. He's like an encyclopedia.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Yes, it does. It is the single most valuable skill in the NBA. And the efficiency he does it with is astonishing, not to mention the amount of fouls he draws. Putting the other team in foul trouble all the time is underrated.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Yeah, there's plenty of value in a guy that's a very good scorer and not much else.Martin's value is limited much more by his age than his game.'Instinctive said:
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
When you give up as many points as you score it really doesn't matter how much you're scoring yourself.'Instinctive said:
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Actually, he doesn't. He scores 117 points per 100 possessions. He gives up 111.Eric Gordon does though (scores 110, gives up 113).I realize there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, but it's something.I don't know how good Martin really is and no one's claiming he's a good defender, but he's getting murdered in here.
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Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
What is his handle, noob?'Good said:
Kev4029
Footballguy
Hes 28, doesn't rebound or defend or really dribble the ball much and hes a poor athlete, his game will be fine into his mid-30s because his shot isn't going to get any worse and hes not gonna get any shorter.
saintfool
Dead sexy
hello reggie miller!
plenty of top 50 players don't play a lick of defense. Nash, Amare, Dirk - just off the top of my head, all horrific defenders.
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Kev4029
Footballguy
I don't think anybody is calling him a great player, there's just some guys in here calling him a backup role player.Quantitatively, he was probably the best scorer in the NBA last year. He doesn't do it in flashy ways (mostly jumpers and free throws) so people don't realize how effective he is. I'll repeat what I said a few posts ago, he was SECOND IN THE NBA IN SCORING ON A PER MINUTE BASIS and the only guy ahead of him was Kobe who was much less efficient scoring than Martin was.
I understand that defense is important to winning a championship, but its relatively unimportant on the wings because there is somewhat of a lack of talent there right now in the NBA. If you have a good defensive PG and a couple good defensive bigs you could throw out Martin and Melo and still have one of the best defenses in the NBA. In the NBA right now how many tough covers are there at SG? MAYBE 10 (Wade, Martin, Gordon, Manu, Kobe, JR Smith, Joe Johnson, Harden if he plays like he did in the half, Ellis and maybe Terry).
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
more like shtick-thieving. back off Abe'Good said:
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Can't believe there's this much Kevin Martin talk in here. :killmenow:
Kev4029
Footballguy
Dirk has gotten much better in his later years. To add to that list, Melo, Durant, Rose, Griffin, Randolph, Curry and Ellis off the top of my head.
Kev4029
Footballguy
He'd be a great fit with your TWolves, all offense, no defense.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
TWolves going to be fun to watch this year at least. :fistpump:
JMon348
Footballguy
@haralabob
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Was that directed at me? I think Martin would be best suited to be a sixth man but that doesn't mean I think he is a 'backup role player'. He'd be instant offense off the bench when your starters sit down and playing against another teams backups would help mitigate his defensive short comings.
In general, your list of tough guards is correct but it changes when it comes to Martin. He couldn't even handle guys like Derozan, Crawford, Mayo, Gordon, Carter's corpse or Allen.
He is a great offensive player, not trying to argue that. This all got started because I don't believe he has the trade value that Abraham thinks he does. Martin isn't going to fetch you a good young player on his own and the amount of teams which need a player like him, and would be willing to give up assets for him, are limited. No team in the bottom half of the league has any use for him. Most contenders have enough scoring that adding him would be redundant on the offense end and a liability on the defensive end.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I agree that the trade was silly and nobody is going to overpay for Martin.But hiding Martin's weakness (really hes not THAT bad of a rebounder and the fact that he doesn't pass comes from him being able to score so easily and efficiently and hes not a ball handler like a Kobe/Wade/Ellis) isn't that terribly hard to do regardless of how ####ty he is because there are so few teams with both a SG and SF that will consistently brutalize Martin (Miami, Boston [but contrary to what you said, Allen doesn't kill Martin because he doesn't have the size or athleticism to overpower Martin], OKC and maybe Denver) so all you need either a SF or a PG that can switch assignments 20 games a year.
I also completely disagree with him being a sixth man. When you look around at the "instant offense" sixth man types (Crawford, JR Smith, Lou Williams, Barbosa, Maggette, etc) they are all guys are in that situation because they can create their own shots and don't need somebody to help get them looks. Martin is more effective playing off the ball and has such crazy efficiency that his offensive game fits better with a starting lineup. The only guy I can think of ever being a 6th man as a teams best offensive player is Ginobili, but that wasn't because he fit better there that was because the Spurs were trying to keep his minutes down while playing against fewer physical guards.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Yes, he really is that bad of a rebounder. That last 3 years he hasn't cracked the top 50 SGs in RebR. That is terrible.
Kev4029
Footballguy
He only played 32 mpg as opposed to 39 like Durant and Lebron or 37 like Rose and Wade 36 like Melo, he posted the second highest rate of scoring in the NBA behind only Kobe who had a 54.8 TS% v Martin with 60.1%. Statistically, Martin was the best scorer in the NBA last year and I don't see much of an argument against that.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
We knew this was happening after the Bulls wouldn't let him participate on the first day of training camp. Hamilton and Brewer will get almost all the minutes at SG with Korver, C.J. Watson, and the rookie Jimmy Butler able to chip in if needed. You're right, Bogans was no longer needed. By the way, barring injury, I wouldn't be surprised if Korver falls out of the rotation completely.
Kev4029
Footballguy
He was 50th last year out of 77 SGs, 50th in 09-10 out of 75 SGs, 53rd in 08-09 out of 75 SGs, 25th in 07-08 out of 75, 26th in 06-07 out of 77.I'm not trying to say hes good, but hes been constantly at least as good as guys like Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton who play pretty similarly and get almost zero offensive rebounds because they play 18-25 feet away from the hoop. If you look at Martin's defensive rebounding numbers it shows a little better and the fact that he gets no offensive rebounds would be expected for a jump shooter. Just something of note, everybody's new favorite shooting guard, Eric Gordon, who will be taking the league by storm this year has posted rebound rates of 4th worst, 4th worst and 9th worst at shooting guard in his three years. Didn't hear anybody mentioning that a week ago.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I don't think you'll see a huge hit to Korver's minutes (I expect Deng's minutes to go down a bit and Korver will still get a few minutes at SG) because Hamilton isn't much of a three point shooter and the team will still need his deadly shooting unless somebody else significantly improves their stroke.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Since Hamilton should play significantly more minutes than Bogans did last year and Deng's minutes will probably only go down a couple per game, major minutes will have to be cut from either Brewer or Korver. There are pros and cons both ways but my prediction is Korver will eventually be on the short end. We'll see what happens, of course.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Either way, they are in a much better spot this year by default because Bogans isn't going to be around.
Native
Footballguy
Baron signed today for the veterans minimum which means the Knicks still have the $2.4M MLE to shore up their bench. Toney Douglas and Iman Shumbphert make for a great backcourt off the bench, but they need another scorer in the front court to play 15 minutes a game.
FYI The word is now that Davis will be back within 2-4 four weeks. Hes at Knicks practice today wearing practice gear dribbling on the sideline - so the 8-10 week report was clearly bogus. This was a huge addition for a team that desperately needed a playmaker. I dont know how good this Knicks team will be, but its definitely the most balanced group weve seen here in 10+ years. They have a nice combo of youth and veterans, scorers and defenders, rebounders and assistmen. The question is - what will the chemistry be like?
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Davis said he chose the Knicks over the Heat and Lakers because of the opportunity to play with the frontline of Carmelo Anthony, Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler, to play in Madison Square Garden and in Mike D’Antoni’s system.
“I think it’s going be great,” Davis said. “When you look at the success that Steve Nash had and Raymond Felton and Chris Duhon, this offense is definitely geared for the passing guard. I know a lot of people don’t consider me a passer, in my career I’ve had to do a lot of scoring, but I’ve always prided myself on passing it and being an unselfish player.
“So I think it will give me an opportunity, and a lot of people an opportunity, to see my passing skills and see how I really direct the floor and be a leader out there on the floor.”
FYI The word is now that Davis will be back within 2-4 four weeks. Hes at Knicks practice today wearing practice gear dribbling on the sideline - so the 8-10 week report was clearly bogus. This was a huge addition for a team that desperately needed a playmaker. I dont know how good this Knicks team will be, but its definitely the most balanced group weve seen here in 10+ years. They have a nice combo of youth and veterans, scorers and defenders, rebounders and assistmen. The question is - what will the chemistry be like?
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Davis said he chose the Knicks over the Heat and Lakers because of the opportunity to play with the frontline of Carmelo Anthony, Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler, to play in Madison Square Garden and in Mike D’Antoni’s system.
“I think it’s going be great,” Davis said. “When you look at the success that Steve Nash had and Raymond Felton and Chris Duhon, this offense is definitely geared for the passing guard. I know a lot of people don’t consider me a passer, in my career I’ve had to do a lot of scoring, but I’ve always prided myself on passing it and being an unselfish player.
“So I think it will give me an opportunity, and a lot of people an opportunity, to see my passing skills and see how I really direct the floor and be a leader out there on the floor.”
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Bob Loblaw
Footballguy
Championship
No. 16
Footballguy
My thoughts on some of the subjects being brought up:
- Kevin Martin: He was one of those players who was underrated, then became so underrated he became overrated, and now he's back to being underrated. The dude is a starting SG in the league for probably 2/3rds of the league. He does little else on the floor, but he is an ELITE SCORER (volume AND efficiency) and when you have an elite NBA skill you deserve to get playing time. So as of now I don't think there should be any question that Martin is an NBA starter and in my estimation he can be Top 3 player on a championship team (though the other two better play some defense).
The debate about Martin vs. Eric Gordon is a matter of preference. I have had a Gordon man crush since last year, but Martin was still absolutely phenomenal last year. So if you're talking about who was a better player last year I don't think there's any question that Martin was. Almost every advance statistic will point that out to you. Yes Gordon is a better all around player, but last year Martin's scoring made up for the gaps.
If you want to talk about the next 3 years, I'd take Gordon hands down. He scores by volume AND with above average efficiency (56% TS%), but he's much more well rounded. I can't say flat out he's a better defender than Martin, but at the very least they occupy opposite ends of the same tier. Gordon though is a true play making SG avg 4.4 asst last year with a 20% ast rate. Sure he has a high TO rate, but what young play maker doesn't? TO rate is one of the things that should decline with experience and is actually a good indicator of future improvement.
So to me there is now question that Martin was the better player LAST YEAR and that Eric Gordon will be the BETTER player for the long run. However, if you're talking about who I would rather have for this season and only this season that question gets dicier and it just boils down to a matter of preference. I'd prefer the upside of Eric Gordon vs Kevin Martin, but if you're more risk averse or have a veteran team that plays good enough defense to cover up for Martin he'll be a good choice since even though you'll pay more salary I don't think the assets needed to acquire him would be less.
- LOVE BD to NYK. I didn't really think the Knicks could build a championship team around Melo and Amare, but adding Chandler AND BD puts them in shouting distance. As a Warrior fan who saw BD during the We Believe run... NY is the PERFECT place for BD. He gets to run a D'Antoni offense surrounded by elite scoring talent that can run up and down the court. The team is good enough and in a big enough market that motivated BD should show up, but not good enough where they will be considered favorites every time they step on the court. The underdog mentality was what drove the We Believe Warriors and what can drive the Knicks this season. If BD and Chandler can stay healthy the Knicks have a shot at the NBA Finals.
- Love the Warriors acquisition of Brandon Rush. He'll be perfect off the bench and I think could steal some time from Klay Thompson. It also seems like a vote of confidence for Biedrins, Brown, Udoh, and Jeremy Tyler that the Dubs traded Amundson.
- Kevin Martin: He was one of those players who was underrated, then became so underrated he became overrated, and now he's back to being underrated. The dude is a starting SG in the league for probably 2/3rds of the league. He does little else on the floor, but he is an ELITE SCORER (volume AND efficiency) and when you have an elite NBA skill you deserve to get playing time. So as of now I don't think there should be any question that Martin is an NBA starter and in my estimation he can be Top 3 player on a championship team (though the other two better play some defense).
The debate about Martin vs. Eric Gordon is a matter of preference. I have had a Gordon man crush since last year, but Martin was still absolutely phenomenal last year. So if you're talking about who was a better player last year I don't think there's any question that Martin was. Almost every advance statistic will point that out to you. Yes Gordon is a better all around player, but last year Martin's scoring made up for the gaps.
If you want to talk about the next 3 years, I'd take Gordon hands down. He scores by volume AND with above average efficiency (56% TS%), but he's much more well rounded. I can't say flat out he's a better defender than Martin, but at the very least they occupy opposite ends of the same tier. Gordon though is a true play making SG avg 4.4 asst last year with a 20% ast rate. Sure he has a high TO rate, but what young play maker doesn't? TO rate is one of the things that should decline with experience and is actually a good indicator of future improvement.
So to me there is now question that Martin was the better player LAST YEAR and that Eric Gordon will be the BETTER player for the long run. However, if you're talking about who I would rather have for this season and only this season that question gets dicier and it just boils down to a matter of preference. I'd prefer the upside of Eric Gordon vs Kevin Martin, but if you're more risk averse or have a veteran team that plays good enough defense to cover up for Martin he'll be a good choice since even though you'll pay more salary I don't think the assets needed to acquire him would be less.
- LOVE BD to NYK. I didn't really think the Knicks could build a championship team around Melo and Amare, but adding Chandler AND BD puts them in shouting distance. As a Warrior fan who saw BD during the We Believe run... NY is the PERFECT place for BD. He gets to run a D'Antoni offense surrounded by elite scoring talent that can run up and down the court. The team is good enough and in a big enough market that motivated BD should show up, but not good enough where they will be considered favorites every time they step on the court. The underdog mentality was what drove the We Believe Warriors and what can drive the Knicks this season. If BD and Chandler can stay healthy the Knicks have a shot at the NBA Finals.
- Love the Warriors acquisition of Brandon Rush. He'll be perfect off the bench and I think could steal some time from Klay Thompson. It also seems like a vote of confidence for Biedrins, Brown, Udoh, and Jeremy Tyler that the Dubs traded Amundson.
Seems like you're arbitrarily choosing stats to favor Martin here. I'm not going to deny that last year Martin was one of the top scorers in the league. But the bolded is simply not true. LeBron, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, Martin, Stoudemire, and Durant all were within 2-3 points of one another in points per 36 minutes. Durant, James, Martin, Nowitzki, and Wade all had a TS above 58%. The fact Martin played fewer minutes than all of these guys goes against him, not for him. And this isn't accounting for the fact that Martin played on a team with pace factor higher than those of most other players or that he doesn't have the ball handling ability that requires him to take low percentage shots at the end of the shot clock that guys like LeBron do.
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Major
Footballguy
Wow. The Chuckwagon was a great asset to Houston for many years. I was sad to see him go. Hope he's alright.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Arbitrarily? I would say the by FAR the two biggest factors in being a good scorer are how many points you score and how efficiently you do it. That's pretty much exactly what I'm doing with points per 36 and TS%. If you take Houston to OKC's pace, Martin would have scored 34.1 pp48 vs Durant who scored 34.1 pp48
At Dallas's pace he would have scored 33.4 vs Dirk at 32.2
At Miami's pace he would have scored 33.3 vs Lebron at 33.1 and Wade at 33.0
At NY's pace he would have scored 35.1 vs Amare at 33.0 and Melo at 34.4
And he still had a higher TS% than all of those guys other than Dirk.
And you are right, Martin doesn't take many of his shots at the end of the shot clock (10% of his shots come in the last 4 seconds of the shot clock as opposed to Lebron who probably leads the league with 21% of his shots coming in that same time frame) but those extra shots show up in the scoring averages. You take 3 or 4 of those shots a game like Lebron and you end up with an extra 3 or 4 points on your scoring average.
I don't think it should be a knock on Martin that he scores without dominating the ball, the fact that hes able to get open early in the shot clock (69% of his shots came in the first 15 seconds of the shot clock) for easy looks is a more valuable than the ability to get up over a defender for a poor look with 2 seconds left on the shot clock.
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