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NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (1 Viewer)

Who is worse?

  • Total voters
    278
Peyton Marino said:
It's not a terrible resume.  You're overvaluing "quality wins".  The committee overvalues quality wins and, probably more so, marketability/big names.  KenPom does not.  That's why using a (good) objective system is better than going by feel or heuristics.  
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KenPom is tricky for tournament bid purposes, though, because it discards Ws and Ls.  The tournament committee doesn't take that approach, and rightfully so. If they did it would take all the drama out of the regular season. Winning or losing a game on a final shot would be essentially meaningless as far the tournament goes because that one shot would have a negligible effect your offensive or defensive efficiency rating.

It's a tough balance to strike. I come down on the side of including a 27-5 team over a 19-13 one because I think the goal is to crown a deserving champion, not to find the 68 best teams.  And while I'm pretty sure a 27-5 mid-major team with a chicken#### OOC schedule wouldn't be a particularly deserving champion, I'm 100% sure a 19-13 team wouldn't be a deserving champion unless all they did was play Kansas, UNC, Virginia and Michigan State 31 times.

 
TobiasFunke said:
KenPom is tricky for tournament bid purposes, though, because it discards Ws and Ls.  The tournament committee doesn't take that approach, and rightfully so.
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I agree for the most part, but I think it's a good gauge.  St. Mary's was 27-5, so they have the wins and they didn't lose a bunch of close games.  You can see the efficiency ratings in their record.  Furthermore, it's not as if one or two close teams got in over them.  I think it's more like 5.  It's pretty clear what's going on when 5 inferior teams get in over you.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Gonzaga beat quality non conference teams. St Mary's beat nobody.  I'm not kidding they literally beat no one good except the two Gonzaga wins. What wins do they have that make you believe they deserved an at large bid?
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Alright, so TWO wins over a great Gonzaga team.  I mean, you really think Tulsa is more deserving at 20-11?  Syracuse getting in at 19-13?  St. Mary's was 27-5.  They played Cal very tough.  The creamed Stanford.  Why punish them because Stanford turned out to be pretty weak?  They made the schedule long ago, not their fault Stanford pooped the bed.  Why Vanderbilt at 19-13 and not St. Mary's?  

Full disclosure, I've met Randy Bennett several times and like him quite a bit.  His former top assistant is the HC at Columbia now and I used to work for his dad.  I'm biased on this, but trying not to be, it feels like they got the shaft this year (and in other years too).  The WCC is not bad basketball.  

 
In other former Stanford coach news, Trent Johnson out at TCU.  Averaging 2 conference wins per year not enough to keep a job these days.

Dan Hurley to Rutgers rumors heating up.

 
This day has been freaking nuts.

Finally sat down to look at bracket for real. If you took only the KenPom highest ranking as who should win in each game and picked that, you end up with a FF of Kansas, Oklahoma, North Carolina, Virginia.

Lowest seed in Sweet 16 would be Wichita St. Only other "upsets" would be Seton Hall and Purdue. Interesting at least. KenPom's got West Virginia, Kentucky, and Purdue all as way underseeded.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Dan Hurley to Rutgers rumors heating up.
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Wisely, Hurley is looking for facility improvements to be guaranteed in writing. We've been trying to build a practice facility and make modest improvements to the arena for about 5 years now, and have only just recently gotten some momentum with it from a fundraising standpoint. Bringing a Hurley back to NJ could really make a difference in getting donations up. 

I don't think he's a guaranteed success (nothing with Rutgers basketball ever should be) but he would be one of the best all around fits possible. There are a few other local guys that I think would make a lot of sense, like Masiello from Manhattan (Lonergan from GW allegedly passed on consideration). 

Oh and Jay Williams went public with his interest last week and supposedly he interviewed yesterday. I'm hoping that was just a courtesy or more of a look at what he could bring as a potential assistant. No way can this job of all jobs be entrusted with someone who has never coached before.

 
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What can you tell me about Miami?  How bad of a bloodbath is it going to be on Thursday night?  UB opened as a 13.5-point underdog so it's probably not going to be pretty.

 
Steve Tasker said:
What can you tell me about Miami?  How bad of a bloodbath is it going to be on Thursday night?  UB opened as a 13.5-point underdog so it's probably not going to be pretty.
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Bright side they play kinda slow so the bloodbath won't be too humiliating.  Downside, one of the least likely teams in the field to noshow and get upset

They have big men that play volleyball at the rim. Rebounding beasts with veteren guards.  Don't have the 1 stud you can't stop which keeps them out of the national race imo

 
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Long Ball Larry said:
And the inaugural Vegas 16 has set its field - with just 8 teams

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/3/14/11227002/2016-vegas-16-tournament-schedule-bracket-scores
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IMO they should ditch the traditional tournament format and adopt some pickup game rules: two teams play to 21 by 2s and 3s, winner stays, loser goes to back of line.  Have some knockout games or dunk contests going on side baskets or in another gym.  

And since it's Vegas, live betting on the stands, and not just on outcomes or game props.  Instant stuff like "will the next shot be 2- or 3-pointer?" "Make or miss". "Will this possession end in a turnover?"

 
cheese said:
Bright side they play kinda slow so the bloodbath won't be too humiliating.  Downside, one of the least likely teams in the field to noshow and get upset

They have big men that play volleyball at the rim. Rebounding beasts with veteren guards.  Don't have the 1 stud you can't stop which keeps them out of the national race imo
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Sounds like domination waiting to happen.  UB is the best rebounding team in the MAC but their bigs were exposed even against Akron's C in the MAC final.  Their likely starting C will be Ikenna Smart, who is a really raw 6'10" African redshirt-freshman.  True freshman Nick Perkins - 6'8" - will play a lot but seems to prefer to play in the high post.  If Miami gets those two in foul trouble early, the Bulls are screwed.  They have a bunch of tweeners at the other positions....undersized guys who can play fine at the mid-major level but are too small to match up with major conference opposition.

Interestingly, the last time these two teams met, UB won 60-57 back in 2006.  Miami's starting PF that day was Jimmy Graham.

 
Here's the quality/efficiency curve sorted in order of seed.  You can see who the outlier teams are and who was over/under seeded according to kenpom.  Nothing's too crazy until you get to the 6-7 seeds on.  You've got overseeded Notre Dame, Oregon St., and Temple, and underseeded Wichita St., Vanderbilt, and Gonzaga.  

GDohufT.png


 
RUSF18 said:
What was Dawkins issue with winning at Stanford? Recruiting? Xs and Os?
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I don't feel super comfortable talking about anything that isn't publicly available, but I think the key was that play was run like an NBA team, as opposed to a college team. So offensively lots of read and flow type sets as opposed to plays. I scouted all the Pac12 teams at one time or another and there were a number that, over the course of a game, never ran the same play more than 2 or 3 times. Then we had games running the same thing like 15-25 times. That was tough - from an advance scouting perspective, I bet we were one of, if not definitely, the easiest teams to scout. Same thing with OOB plays.

He was really nice, and also knows a TON about basketball. I just am not sure if it was ever the right place for the systems he wanted to use. I'll be on the edge of my seat to see what happens next.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
In other former Stanford coach news, Trent Johnson out at TCU.  Averaging 2 conference wins per year not enough to keep a job these days.

Dan Hurley to Rutgers rumors heating up.
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As much as I enjoy watching the Minutemen beat his underachieving teams year after year, I don't know if I can stand watching Hurley any more in the A-10. I don't know if a coach has ever annoyed me more in all my years of watching college hoop.

 
Someone talk about West Virginia vs. Stephen Austin.  Stephen Austin has the characteristics of teams that have pulled the upset 40% of the time in previous 3-14 matchups, while WV has the characteristics of teams that have been upset 36% of the time.  14-3 upsets are tough to pull the trigger on though.  

 
Scoresman said:
Someone talk about West Virginia vs. Stephen Austin.  Stephen Austin has the characteristics of teams that have pulled the upset 40% of the time in previous 3-14 matchups, while WV has the characteristics of teams that have been upset 36% of the time.  14-3 upsets are tough to pull the trigger on though.  
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I haven't watched WV much this year, but it seems to me they've got got a typical Huggins resume and maybe a little juice on top. They will make the game as ugly as possible and use their 'bamas (that may be an old term for many of you - rugged, nasty, full-grown men who will grow their fingernails just to cut you out of the game for a minute). That can cost them against more artful, stylish, thoroughbred teams that are loaded with talent (say, some Kentucky/UNC/Duke/Kansas teams of recent memory) and also maybe against some small school that can stay out of the fray (few and far between). For everyone else, they are a living hell to play against. It's like playing Navy in football but with better talent.

Playing that style leaves then open to close-game losses against a hot team (just like UVA & Michigan State), but they would need to play against an exceptional team to get blown out IMO. I know nothing about SFA.

 
At what point does the Vanderbilt administration say enough is enough with Kevin Stallings? What's it been - one Sweet 16 in 15 years?

Very frusrating. 

ETA: 0 SEC titles (a mediocre Big 5 conference) and 1 Sweet 16 in 15 damn years. And Vanderbilt seems completely damn fine with him.

 
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RUSF18 said:
What was Dawkins issue with winning at Stanford? Recruiting? Xs and Os?
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Recruiting was the major issue.   His kids had solid fundamentals.  Xs and Os were inconsistent, but not terrible.

More of a great assistant coach than a head coach.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

 
TripItUp said:
Recruiting was the major issue.   His kids had solid fundamentals.  Xs and Os were inconsistent, but not terrible.

More of a great assistant coach than a head coach.  Nothing to be ashamed of.
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I 100% disagree. Can't say it much more clearly than that. This is wrong.

 
whoknew said:
At what point does the Vanderbilt administration say enough is enough with Kevin Stallings? What's it been - one Sweet 16 in 15 years?

Very frusrating. 

ETA: 0 SEC titles (a mediocre Big 5 conference) and 1 Sweet 16 in 15 damn years. And Vanderbilt seems completely damn fine with him.
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Hell if I know.  Everyone hates the guy.  They'll probably give him an extension.  Horrible horrible coach

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Are you saying he did recruit well, or that his recruiting was not why he got fired?
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Recruiting definitely not why he got fired. I think it's fair to say he recruited well. Not amazing, but not terrible either. You have to remember one very important thing about Stanford recruiting: players have to get in on their own to the University. There isn't a relationship between admissions and the basketball team here. I'm not going to name a name so you'll have to just take my word (or not, I suppose), but a least one lottery pick committed to the school and then wasn't admitted, and then helped lead another team to a national title. Basketball is like any other strong extracurricular to the admissions people here. The players have to clear the bar. That is a pretty limiting factor for one of, if not the most selective undergraduate institution in the country.

Since 2009, there was at least 1 4-star in all but one season, multiple 5-stars, at least one McDonald's All-American that I could find... Recruiting was not the issue. He wasn't Calipari or Coach K, but given the limitations I think he did pretty well.

IMO, X's and O's were the single biggest issue with the team. It was an incredibly basic playbook, with NBA reads. That's a combination of basic and complex in a way that doesn't capitalize on the biggest strength of Stanford athletes, and then effectively takes that strength completely away and neutralizes it at the same time.

TripItUp said:
How many McDonalds all Americans during his tenure?  Yet they were still competitive most seasons.

Exactly.
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You know that answer is higher than 0, right? See above for other thoughts. Multiple NBA players came through during his tenure.

How competitive, really though? One tournament appearance. Two NIT titles. I'm not saying he was bad. But you clearly didn't watch much if you think talent was the problem and the X's and O'x were great. We ran an NBA style offense with college players, ran the least number of different OOB plays in the Pac12, and had the least number of different play calls in the league as well.

Edit: I'm going to shut up now, before I say something dumb, or that I can't take back. Suffice to say my opinion has been made clear, I think. Welcome to believe whatever you like of course, but this is firsthand experience, not conjecture.

 
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whoknew said:
At what point does the Vanderbilt administration say enough is enough with Kevin Stallings? What's it been - one Sweet 16 in 15 years?

Very frusrating. 

ETA: 0 SEC titles (a mediocre Big 5 conference) and 1 Sweet 16 in 15 damn years. And Vanderbilt seems completely damn fine with him.
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FSU just extended Hamilton after no tournies and 3 NITs in 4 years. That was a little frustrating. 

 
Good Posting Judge said:
My guess is Melo.
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I was thinking Ty Lawson, but you're probably right.

He's probably right about the on-court stuff - certainly right about their offense - but he's overstating the lack of relationship between admissions and athletics.  You have to be more than a minimum qualifier, but their are 1700-1800 SATs and 24-25 ACTs throughout Stanford athletics - very bright kids, but not really Stanford material.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
I was thinking Ty Lawson, but you're probably right.

He's probably right about the on-court stuff - certainly right about their offense - but he's overstating the lack of relationship between admissions and athletics.  You have to be more than a minimum qualifier, but their are 1700-1800 SATs and 24-25 ACTs throughout Stanford athletics - very bright kids, but not really Stanford material.
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Could also be Kevin Love or Jrue Holliday.  Jabari Brown also had some interest, but he's a headcase, so I'm not sure he'd be in the discussion. 

I do sort of take issue with the NBA set being a bad thing.  That's almost 100% what Duke runs and they've had a top 10 offense for god know how long.  Of course Duke's also starting 3-5 NBA players a year, so they have a much easier time pulling it off. 

That being said, Dawkins wasn't getting it done.  My guess is he ends up as an NBA assistant somewhere.  He always seemed more an NBA guy to me than college.   

 
Capella said:
Yea I know but it just feels like nothing will get done with it. He had a good class last year and the team struggled. 
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The guy just beat Davidson.  That should keep him safe for 5-6 years, IMO.

With those 2 freshmen plus Isaac coming in next year, they better make some noise.  Maybe an NIT run will be good for them as a springboard.

(or are either of those freshmen possibly leaving?)

 
Long Ball Larry said:
The guy just beat Davidson.  That should keep him safe for 5-6 years, IMO.

With those 2 freshmen plus Isaac coming in next year, they better make some noise.  Maybe an NIT run will be good for them as a springboard.

(or are either of those freshmen possibly leaving?)
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The problem with Hamilton, is anything is possible.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
I was thinking Ty Lawson, but you're probably right.

He's probably right about the on-court stuff - certainly right about their offense - but he's overstating the lack of relationship between admissions and athletics.  You have to be more than a minimum qualifier, but their are 1700-1800 SATs and 24-25 ACTs throughout Stanford athletics - very bright kids, but not really Stanford material.
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Other parts of athletics (especially football) do have that relationship with admissions. I was only speaking to basketball, and only compared to the pull that other schools' basketball teams hold with their respective admissions offices.

 
Oklahoma has a pretty short distance throughout if they win, I think. 

OKC - Anaheim (ok thats far) - Houston (driving distance, though not the most convenient of drives)

Who travels the least if they win all the way out? I'm thinking Kansas? Seems like all the schools closest to Houston have to go pretty far on one of the first two weekends.

 
Instinctive said:
Oklahoma has a pretty short distance throughout if they win, I think. 

OKC - Anaheim (ok thats far) - Houston (driving distance, though not the most convenient of drives)

Who travels the least if they win all the way out? I'm thinking Kansas? Seems like all the schools closest to Houston have to go pretty far on one of the first two weekends.
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Has to be UNC as they are only 400 miles from Philly. 

 
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