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NFL and NFLPA cancel meeting today re: CBA (1 Viewer)

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Mike & Mike are reporting this morning that the scheduled talks between the NFL and NFLPA today were canceled, with more details to follow. They met yesterday and the perception, at least initially, is that little progress was made and the two sides felt it more productive to step away and regroup than to meet again today. A lot of speculation obviously on the motivations here, so I'll wait to hear more details from the two sides before reacting. Just thought it was notable to mention for those following the labor discussions step by step.

 
My kneejerk reaction (as with everything with new CBA negotiations) is... powerplay.

I wonder which side suggested the timeout first? I'll bet I could guess correctly.

 
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Other then one of the suits unable to attend for some certain reason, maybe its an extreme reason or maybe its not, but this don't look good at all.

 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.

 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
Two nuances that struck me the last few days:1) Players are still getting released (with many more to come), but no one is going to be signed until a CBA. That's real pain2) The draft will occur as planned, but teams won't be able to trade players for picks nor will they be able to sign their rookies (and get them into camp studying the playbook)
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I wouldn't really care if the union was screwed here. I am not tied to any player outside of FF interests. I wouldn't mind if some no-names played for a year. Maybe I am in the minority.
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
Looks like it was the flip side of this. NFLPA comes in with a highball offer and ownership bounces. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6107737

NFL owners walked away from the negotiating table Wednesday when the NFL Players Association proposed to take an average of 50 percent of all revenue generated by the league, according to player sources.

NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith briefed club player representatives in a conference call on Wednesday night, detailing his version of the abbreviated session that fell far short of the seven hours that was scheduled between the two sides in an effort to reached a new collective bargaining agreement before it expires at midnight March 4.

Consequently, a five-hour second negotiating session scheduled for Thursday was canceled and no further meetings have been proposed.

Wednesday's meeting in Washington started off badly, one source said, when the owners' negotiating team interpreted the union's proposal of a 49-to-51 percent take as "total revenue" instead of the union's intended percentage take of "all revenue."

At the current revenue levels, "total revenue" has been defined as an estimated $9 billion gross, minus a $1 billion credit in the owners' favor. In the current CBA deal about to expire, the union's share has been estimated around 60 percent of $8 billion, once the $1 billion credit was subtracted.

Owners have asked for an additional $1 billion credit -- or $2 billion in total -- before it splits "total revenue" with players.

Smith has stated that the union would need to examine all of the owners' financial books before it would accept a substantial reduction in allowing the additional $1 billion in credits.

To simplify talks, a player source said the union told the owners' negotiating team that it will forgo its request to examine the league's financial books by simply taking the flat 50 percent cut of "all revenue," which would eliminate $1 billion-to-$2-billion credits off the top and erase the definition of "total revenue."

A union source said that if the NFLPA accepted the owners' current proposal, it would receive a little more than 40 percent all revenue.

Smith said in an interview with ESPN last week that a 40-to-42 percent share of all revenue would represent the smallest percentage of players' share by any professional sports union.

In addition to the flat 50 percent share of all revenue, players are willing to grant additional credits to any franchise that reinvests in stadium improvement, a mechanism to incentivize clubs to grow revenues, a players source said.

The union believes by taking a flat 50 percent share, it would eliminate the need to audit every expense clubs invest in order to offset credits built into the current CBA and the model proposed by owners going forward.

NFLPA assistant executive director George Atallah would not elaborate Thursday, except to say: "This didn't just start yesterday."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league will not confirm, deny or comment on any specifics relating to negotiations.

Chris Mortensen is ESPN's senior NFL analyst.
 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.

The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.

Just a rumor...

 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
In what way is he causing havoc?
 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
In what way is he causing havoc?
No idea, that's exactly what was passed on to me.
 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
In what way is he causing havoc?
Lombardi says he's one of the three owners (other two are Jones and Kraft) with the most juice with other owners.
 
so, what is to stop the NFL from saying screw the union, 18 game schedule, salary cap, rookie scale, 30% pay decrease, etc. Take it or else. The or else being screw this season and if no players want to cross next season, simply sign new players. eventually everyone will come back. I doubt many guys would make the same money in the CFL or any other league regardless of salary decrease. The NFL could even up their image by taking that 30% decrease and using that to up benefits for current and retired players.

what am I missing?

 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
The owners aren't asking for players to take a 30% cut. Even the NFLPA isn't claiming that, instead claiming that ownership wants them to take an 18% cut, while ownership contends it's less than that.
 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
The owners aren't asking for players to take a 30% cut. Even the NFLPA isn't claiming that, instead claiming that ownership wants them to take an 18% cut, while ownership contends it's less than that.
I would like to see rookies take a cut, at least until they actually perform.
 
Chad Ochocinco

Todays labor negotiations on the CBA deal between owners and NFLPA has been canceled because the sides are to far apart!! Real messy this is!
If Ocho says it's bad, it mus be bad...
 
Looks like it was the flip side of this. NFLPA comes in with a highball offer and ownership bounces.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6107737

NFL owners walked away from the negotiating table Wednesday when the NFL Players Association proposed to take an average of 50 percent of all revenue generated by the league, according to player sources.

NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith briefed club player representatives in a conference call on Wednesday night, detailing his version of the abbreviated session that fell far short of the seven hours that was scheduled between the two sides in an effort to reached a new collective bargaining agreement before it expires at midnight March 4.

Consequently, a five-hour second negotiating session scheduled for Thursday was canceled and no further meetings have been proposed.

Wednesday's meeting in Washington started off badly, one source said, when the owners' negotiating team interpreted the union's proposal of a 49-to-51 percent take as "total revenue" instead of the union's intended percentage take of "all revenue."

At the current revenue levels, "total revenue" has been defined as an estimated $9 billion gross, minus a $1 billion credit in the owners' favor. In the current CBA deal about to expire, the union's share has been estimated around 60 percent of $8 billion, once the $1 billion credit was subtracted.

Owners have asked for an additional $1 billion credit -- or $2 billion in total -- before it splits "total revenue" with players.

Smith has stated that the union would need to examine all of the owners' financial books before it would accept a substantial reduction in allowing the additional $1 billion in credits.

To simplify talks, a player source said the union told the owners' negotiating team that it will forgo its request to examine the league's financial books by simply taking the flat 50 percent cut of "all revenue," which would eliminate $1 billion-to-$2-billion credits off the top and erase the definition of "total revenue."

A union source said that if the NFLPA accepted the owners' current proposal, it would receive a little more than 40 percent all revenue.

Smith said in an interview with ESPN last week that a 40-to-42 percent share of all revenue would represent the smallest percentage of players' share by any professional sports union.

In addition to the flat 50 percent share of all revenue, players are willing to grant additional credits to any franchise that reinvests in stadium improvement, a mechanism to incentivize clubs to grow revenues, a players source said.

The union believes by taking a flat 50 percent share, it would eliminate the need to audit every expense clubs invest in order to offset credits built into the current CBA and the model proposed by owners going forward.

NFLPA assistant executive director George Atallah would not elaborate Thursday, except to say: "This didn't just start yesterday."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league will not confirm, deny or comment on any specifics relating to negotiations.

Chris Mortensen is ESPN's senior NFL analyst.
So to break this down --In 2010, the NFL made ~ $9B total. The "players get 60% of 'total revenue', which is all revenue minus $1B" is not entirely accurate. The salary cap for the 2009 season was set at 58% of "projected total revenue", and that $1B is a very rounded number. The actual total amount of credits the NFL owners exempted themselves from including in total revenue exceeded $1B by a few hundred thousand.

After all of the receipts were tabulated by the accountants, the players received 57.1% of 2009's Total Revenue and 50.6% of All Revenue.

The NFL is projected to make $9.7B in 2011. If the old CBA was renewed and the percentages stayed the same, the players would receive $4.90 Billion, and the Owners would receive $4.80 Billion.

The Union just offered to lower that figure to $4.85B, i.e. a $50 Million paycut, with some leeway to take even less.

The Owners want a 50/50 split after a much larger deduction for "revenue enhancing investments" to the tune of $2.4B.

Under their offer, the players would receive $3.65B in the 2011 season, i.e. an $850 Million paycut, while the owners would receive $6.05B.

In other words, the two sides are $800 Million apart, per season.

Assuming this is a 6-year deal and revenues will (conservatively) grow at 5%/year, then the two sides are between 7 and 8 BILLION DOLLARS apart.

 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I wouldn't really care if the union was screwed here. I am not tied to any player outside of FF interests. I wouldn't mind if some no-names played for a year. Maybe I am in the minority.
I would say that you are.
 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
In what way is he causing havoc?
In general, it's always been the case that struggling owners cause difficulty while those flourishing seem to go along with everything. It's kinda the nature of the beast here. On the player's side, there will be vets that don't want to admit they aren't as productive and should be paid less.
 
Looks like it was the flip side of this. NFLPA comes in with a highball offer and ownership bounces.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6107737

NFL owners walked away from the negotiating table Wednesday when the NFL Players Association proposed to take an average of 50 percent of all revenue generated by the league, according to player sources.

NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith briefed club player representatives in a conference call on Wednesday night, detailing his version of the abbreviated session that fell far short of the seven hours that was scheduled between the two sides in an effort to reached a new collective bargaining agreement before it expires at midnight March 4.

Consequently, a five-hour second negotiating session scheduled for Thursday was canceled and no further meetings have been proposed.

Wednesday's meeting in Washington started off badly, one source said, when the owners' negotiating team interpreted the union's proposal of a 49-to-51 percent take as "total revenue" instead of the union's intended percentage take of "all revenue."

At the current revenue levels, "total revenue" has been defined as an estimated $9 billion gross, minus a $1 billion credit in the owners' favor. In the current CBA deal about to expire, the union's share has been estimated around 60 percent of $8 billion, once the $1 billion credit was subtracted.

Owners have asked for an additional $1 billion credit -- or $2 billion in total -- before it splits "total revenue" with players.

Smith has stated that the union would need to examine all of the owners' financial books before it would accept a substantial reduction in allowing the additional $1 billion in credits.

To simplify talks, a player source said the union told the owners' negotiating team that it will forgo its request to examine the league's financial books by simply taking the flat 50 percent cut of "all revenue," which would eliminate $1 billion-to-$2-billion credits off the top and erase the definition of "total revenue."

A union source said that if the NFLPA accepted the owners' current proposal, it would receive a little more than 40 percent all revenue.

Smith said in an interview with ESPN last week that a 40-to-42 percent share of all revenue would represent the smallest percentage of players' share by any professional sports union.

In addition to the flat 50 percent share of all revenue, players are willing to grant additional credits to any franchise that reinvests in stadium improvement, a mechanism to incentivize clubs to grow revenues, a players source said.

The union believes by taking a flat 50 percent share, it would eliminate the need to audit every expense clubs invest in order to offset credits built into the current CBA and the model proposed by owners going forward.

NFLPA assistant executive director George Atallah would not elaborate Thursday, except to say: "This didn't just start yesterday."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league will not confirm, deny or comment on any specifics relating to negotiations.

Chris Mortensen is ESPN's senior NFL analyst.
So to break this down --In 2010, the NFL made ~ $9B total. The "players get 60% of 'total revenue', which is all revenue minus $1B" is not entirely accurate. The salary cap for the 2009 season was set at 58% of "projected total revenue", and that $1B is a very rounded number. The actual total amount of credits the NFL owners exempted themselves from including in total revenue exceeded $1B by a few hundred thousand.

After all of the receipts were tabulated by the accountants, the players received 57.1% of 2009's Total Revenue and 50.6% of All Revenue.

The NFL is projected to make $9.7B in 2011. If the old CBA was renewed and the percentages stayed the same, the players would receive $4.90 Billion, and the Owners would receive $4.80 Billion.

The Union just offered to lower that figure to $4.85B, i.e. a $50 Million paycut, with some leeway to take even less.

The Owners want a 50/50 split after a much larger deduction for "revenue enhancing investments" to the tune of $2.4B.

Under their offer, the players would receive $3.65B in the 2011 season, i.e. an $850 Million paycut, while the owners would receive $6.05B.

In other words, the two sides are $800 Million apart, per season.

Assuming this is a 6-year deal and revenues will (conservatively) grow at 5%/year, then the two sides are between 7 and 8 BILLION DOLLARS apart.
If the ESPN story is accurate, I think my initial impression is that the NFLPA made a very reasonable proposal. When the players hired D Smith two years ago, they probably didn't expect that one of his very first offers would not only fail to improve their existing deal, but would actually reduce their take. That is the position he finds himself in now. If the owners' reaction to this proposal is to walk out, I'm not sure that Smith is really the right guy to get a deal done. If the only way to avoid a lockout is for the players to give away the farm, they should probably fire Smith and just go back to Troy Vincent.
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I wouldn't really care if the union was screwed here. I am not tied to any player outside of FF interests. I wouldn't mind if some no-names played for a year. Maybe I am in the minority.
don't mean to offend, but just wonder how old you are, or more accurately, how well you remember 1987?
 
don't mean to offend, but just wonder how old you are, or more accurately, how well you remember 1987?
I do but I was young then. I don't remember Montana crossing. I remember LT crossing the line. I remember some Redskins sticking and some QB actually making a career out of his chance.I know my older bro and father+friends didn't care so much about the game, but they got their sunday of drinking and hanging out with the guys being silly and all while the women were away. I got the impression this was common. I don't think it'll ever come to that, but I think if pushed hard, many fans will still want some game on so as to keep their fun routine.
 
don't mean to offend, but just wonder how old you are, or more accurately, how well you remember 1987?
I know I'm not the intended target of your question, but I remember 1987 rather fondly. Then again, I was a teenager growing up in the D.C. area and a Redskins fan at the time. While I didn't like the idea of a strike, I soon discovered that I had a much greater allegiance to the football club itself than the players. Watching the scab Redskins beat a heavily favored Cowboys roster filled with line-crossing veterans on a Monday night remains one of my favorite sports memories (the movie "The Replacements" was loosely based on this game). 1982, on the other hand, sucked donkey balls.
 
in the event of a lockout, are the current free agents who aren't getting paid going to sign on with UFL teams?

Would love to see Deangelo playing for the Nighthawks

 
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Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I wouldn't really care if the union was screwed here. I am not tied to any player outside of FF interests. I wouldn't mind if some no-names played for a year. Maybe I am in the minority.
Problem is that after the last srike that the owners cannot use replacement players. So its either no football or football with a new agreement. Which is why both sides HAVE to work this out. No way the owners do not have football IMO.
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I wouldn't really care if the union was screwed here. I am not tied to any player outside of FF interests. I wouldn't mind if some no-names played for a year. Maybe I am in the minority.
Problem is that after the last srike that the owners cannot use replacement players. So its either no football or football with a new agreement. Which is why both sides HAVE to work this out. No way the owners do not have football IMO.
What's the basis for this? I understand that this is a lockout vs a strike, but I've read that the owners would still be able to use replacement players if there was a business reason...something like that.
 
Looks like it was the flip side of this. NFLPA comes in with a highball offer and ownership bounces.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6107737

NFL owners walked away from the negotiating table Wednesday when the NFL Players Association proposed to take an average of 50 percent of all revenue generated by the league, according to player sources.

NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith briefed club player representatives in a conference call on Wednesday night, detailing his version of the abbreviated session that fell far short of the seven hours that was scheduled between the two sides in an effort to reached a new collective bargaining agreement before it expires at midnight March 4.

Consequently, a five-hour second negotiating session scheduled for Thursday was canceled and no further meetings have been proposed.

Wednesday's meeting in Washington started off badly, one source said, when the owners' negotiating team interpreted the union's proposal of a 49-to-51 percent take as "total revenue" instead of the union's intended percentage take of "all revenue."

At the current revenue levels, "total revenue" has been defined as an estimated $9 billion gross, minus a $1 billion credit in the owners' favor. In the current CBA deal about to expire, the union's share has been estimated around 60 percent of $8 billion, once the $1 billion credit was subtracted.

Owners have asked for an additional $1 billion credit -- or $2 billion in total -- before it splits "total revenue" with players.

Smith has stated that the union would need to examine all of the owners' financial books before it would accept a substantial reduction in allowing the additional $1 billion in credits.

To simplify talks, a player source said the union told the owners' negotiating team that it will forgo its request to examine the league's financial books by simply taking the flat 50 percent cut of "all revenue," which would eliminate $1 billion-to-$2-billion credits off the top and erase the definition of "total revenue."

A union source said that if the NFLPA accepted the owners' current proposal, it would receive a little more than 40 percent all revenue.

Smith said in an interview with ESPN last week that a 40-to-42 percent share of all revenue would represent the smallest percentage of players' share by any professional sports union.

In addition to the flat 50 percent share of all revenue, players are willing to grant additional credits to any franchise that reinvests in stadium improvement, a mechanism to incentivize clubs to grow revenues, a players source said.

The union believes by taking a flat 50 percent share, it would eliminate the need to audit every expense clubs invest in order to offset credits built into the current CBA and the model proposed by owners going forward.

NFLPA assistant executive director George Atallah would not elaborate Thursday, except to say: "This didn't just start yesterday."

NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league will not confirm, deny or comment on any specifics relating to negotiations.

Chris Mortensen is ESPN's senior NFL analyst.
So to break this down --In 2010, the NFL made ~ $9B total. The "players get 60% of 'total revenue', which is all revenue minus $1B" is not entirely accurate. The salary cap for the 2009 season was set at 58% of "projected total revenue", and that $1B is a very rounded number. The actual total amount of credits the NFL owners exempted themselves from including in total revenue exceeded $1B by a few hundred thousand.

After all of the receipts were tabulated by the accountants, the players received 57.1% of 2009's Total Revenue and 50.6% of All Revenue.

The NFL is projected to make $9.7B in 2011. If the old CBA was renewed and the percentages stayed the same, the players would receive $4.90 Billion, and the Owners would receive $4.80 Billion.

The Union just offered to lower that figure to $4.85B, i.e. a $50 Million paycut, with some leeway to take even less.

The Owners want a 50/50 split after a much larger deduction for "revenue enhancing investments" to the tune of $2.4B.

Under their offer, the players would receive $3.65B in the 2011 season, i.e. an $850 Million paycut, while the owners would receive $6.05B.

In other words, the two sides are $800 Million apart, per season.

Assuming this is a 6-year deal and revenues will (conservatively) grow at 5%/year, then the two sides are between 7 and 8 BILLION DOLLARS apart.
If the ESPN story is accurate, I think my initial impression is that the NFLPA made a very reasonable proposal. When the players hired D Smith two years ago, they probably didn't expect that one of his very first offers would not only fail to improve their existing deal, but would actually reduce their take. That is the position he finds himself in now. If the owners' reaction to this proposal is to walk out, I'm not sure that Smith is really the right guy to get a deal done. If the only way to avoid a lockout is for the players to give away the farm, they should probably fire Smith and just go back to Troy Vincent.
My thoughts exactly. That the owners balked at that doesn't give me a good degree of confidence that this ends well.
 
Problem is that after the last srike that the owners cannot use replacement players. So its either no football or football with a new agreement. Which is why both sides HAVE to work this out. No way the owners do not have football IMO.
Are you saying that from a public relations standpoint or a legal standpoint? Either way, I don't think that's accurate.

 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.Just a rumor...
This isn't shocking, Jerry has been planning for and anticipating a lockout for some time.
 
Rumor I hear is Jerry Richardson, the Panthers owner, is causing havoc at the collective bargaining meeting. They have cancelled todays meeting all together because of ruckus he is causing. Really pissed a lot of people off. Including some owners.

The owners want the players to take a pay decrease of about 30%.

Just a rumor...
The owners aren't asking for players to take a 30% cut. Even the NFLPA isn't claiming that, instead claiming that ownership wants them to take an 18% cut, while ownership contends it's less than that.
It all depends on how you're measuring things.The 18% cut is based on gross dollars. The players received $4.45 Billion combined last season. The NFL wants them to take $3.65 Billion next season, an $800M cut. $800M / 4,450M = .1798, or an 18% cut.

But that dollar amount for next season is based on projected revenue of $9.7 Billion, and if the old CBA was extended under the same terms, the players would get 50.6% of that total, or $4.9 Billion. So, compared to that number, the owners want the players to take $1.25 Billion less. $1.25B / $4.45B = .2809, or a 28.1% cut (which has been generously rounded in the press releases to "about 30%").

 
Orange Crush said:
greenroom said:
Problem is that after the last srike that the owners cannot use replacement players. So its either no football or football with a new agreement. Which is why both sides HAVE to work this out. No way the owners do not have football IMO.
Are you saying that from a public relations standpoint or a legal standpoint? Either way, I don't think that's accurate.
I'm not sure either, but there's no economic reason for replacement players or games given the current television contracts. Unlike most industries, the NFL owners can cancel games, shut down, and immediately cut their operating costs to next to nothing, while maintaining the great majority of their current income. I think the most interesting issue as the deadline approaches is whether the union would decertify in anticipation of a lock-out, and how that process would play out. I'm not sure that the owners consider that a credible threat, but it would complicate a lockout due to anti-trust concerns.
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
What do you mean by a gigantic class of free agents. Numerically is it significantly larger or just bigger names?
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
What do you mean by a gigantic class of free agents. Numerically is it significantly larger or just bigger names?
I think he's talking about all the players who were reclassified as restricted last year (and now likely unrestricted) being added to this year's class of unrestricted, likely doubling the number of unrestricted FAs.
 
so, what is to stop the NFL from saying screw the union, 18 game schedule, salary cap, rookie scale, 30% pay decrease, etc. Take it or else. The or else being screw this season and if no players want to cross next season, simply sign new players. eventually everyone will come back. I doubt many guys would make the same money in the CFL or any other league regardless of salary decrease. The NFL could even up their image by taking that 30% decrease and using that to up benefits for current and retired players. what am I missing?
A couple centuries of labor law?
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
What do you mean by a gigantic class of free agents. Numerically is it significantly larger or just bigger names?
I think he's talking about all the players who were reclassified as restricted last year (and now likely unrestricted) being added to this year's class of unrestricted, likely doubling the number of unrestricted FAs.
yup. unprecedented free agent class, both in size and quality of names. even after franchise/transition tags are applied, there will be a ton of impact players out there.
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I think this fact is/has been grossly overstated. The fact of the matter is that the cash they get now will have to be paid back. It isn't "free money" by any remote stretch of the imagination. If football isn't played, the owners really do lose this money...just not in 2011. Rich guys don't get rich, and they certainly don't stay rich, by passing up BILLIONS in revenues just because they would lose those billions over the 2012-2015 seasons instead of in 2011.The owners may have the leverage, but that leverage is nowhere near as absolute as you're suggesting. There is every bit as much pressure on them to deal as on the players. The LOAN from TV is misleading.

 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I think this fact is/has been grossly overstated. The fact of the matter is that the cash they get now will have to be paid back. It isn't "free money" by any remote stretch of the imagination. If football isn't played, the owners really do lose this money...just not in 2011. Rich guys don't get rich, and they certainly don't stay rich, by passing up BILLIONS in revenues just because they would lose those billions over the 2012-2015 seasons instead of in 2011.The owners may have the leverage, but that leverage is nowhere near as absolute as you're suggesting. There is every bit as much pressure on them to deal as on the players. The LOAN from TV is misleading.
While it's true the owners would owe the money with interest, you are overstating the significance of that. The owners would only be worried if they didn't have cash flow to fund operations, this TV money gives them that and then some. It's largely understood that if games were missed, the money "owed" would be put back in an extension of the next round of TV rights negotiations, and spread out over multiple years if not forgiven entirely for other incentives like broadband rights or added games if the league goes to an 18-game schedule as planned. What the players don't make, they don't make. All the owners will really be doing is accruing some incremental indebtedness that is WELL covered by future revenues.
 
I am 100% behind the players until the NFL shows a little more transparency than nothing at all when it comes to the books. Dont know how you can reasonably expect workers to take that big of a pay cut without showing why.

Now if they do open up their books and the numbers show that it's not that sustainable the way we are going, then I'll be all for the owners if the players still ask for more.

 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I think this fact is/has been grossly overstated. The fact of the matter is that the cash they get now will have to be paid back. It isn't "free money" by any remote stretch of the imagination. If football isn't played, the owners really do lose this money...just not in 2011. Rich guys don't get rich, and they certainly don't stay rich, by passing up BILLIONS in revenues just because they would lose those billions over the 2012-2015 seasons instead of in 2011.The owners may have the leverage, but that leverage is nowhere near as absolute as you're suggesting. There is every bit as much pressure on them to deal as on the players. The LOAN from TV is misleading.
While it's true the owners would owe the money with interest, you are overstating the significance of that. The owners would only be worried if they didn't have cash flow to fund operations, this TV money gives them that and then some. It's largely understood that if games were missed, the money "owed" would be put back in an extension of the next round of TV rights negotiations, and spread out over multiple years if not forgiven entirely for other incentives like broadband rights or added games if the league goes to an 18-game schedule as planned. What the players don't make, they don't make. All the owners will really be doing is accruing some incremental indebtedness that is WELL covered by future revenues.
Not sure I follow this. If the lockout occurs this year, the owners will most definitely have lost a LOT of money over the following several years. The money will be "lost" by them just as much as it will have been lost by the players. Being spread out, or "forgiven" (a misnomer I think) is just hiding that lost revenue. If the networks "forgive" some of the debt due to an 18 game season for example, that's just extra money the league would have made (on top) otherwise.I think the relevant point is that some of the owners might be able to survive the near-term loss better than some of the players will. Both sides would lose roughly a "years worth" of money if there is a lockout. Its just that the players will lose their share right up front and the owners will lose theirs over several years which is compounded by the fact that players have a much shorter "career" than owners do. It's a nice advantage but it's not like it's free money as some have implied. There is still plenty of incentive for the owners to get a deal done.

 
I am 100% behind the players until the NFL shows a little more transparency than nothing at all when it comes to the books. Dont know how you can reasonably expect workers to take that big of a pay cut without showing why. Now if they do open up their books and the numbers show that it's not that sustainable the way we are going, then I'll be all for the owners if the players still ask for more.
You really expect that the players would say, "Oh, well if that's the case..." and then sign on? Come on, you and I and everyone else here weren't born yesterday. The whole thing about the books is irrelevant to the players. They don't care. It's called posturing. And, even if the owners divulged everything, the NFLPA would dispute the numbers or they would come back to them and say, "Do your side of the business better, but we still want 50%." Or both. But, they're not going to hold the owners' hands and take the 42% or whatever it is the owners are asking for.D Smith is a political wanna be. That's what's driving his rhetoric here.
 
Unfortunately there's no incentive for either party to make significant concessions until we get to the point where paychecks and game/TV revenues are at stake. We're going to be dealing with this for a long time.
Signing bonuses at stake right away for a gigantic class of free agents.My guess is that the owners, knowing that they hold all of the cards, have opened with a lowball offer. The NFLPA has to posture a position of strength, even if they are aware they have little leverage. The NFLPA now has to go back and decide what 2 or 3 areas are most important to push on, and focus their energies in getting better terms in those areas. The owners can just wait them out as they have their billions of TV revenues for the upcoming season intact even if no football is played...
I think this fact is/has been grossly overstated. The fact of the matter is that the cash they get now will have to be paid back. It isn't "free money" by any remote stretch of the imagination. If football isn't played, the owners really do lose this money...just not in 2011. Rich guys don't get rich, and they certainly don't stay rich, by passing up BILLIONS in revenues just because they would lose those billions over the 2012-2015 seasons instead of in 2011.The owners may have the leverage, but that leverage is nowhere near as absolute as you're suggesting. There is every bit as much pressure on them to deal as on the players. The LOAN from TV is misleading.
While it's true the owners would owe the money with interest, you are overstating the significance of that. The owners would only be worried if they didn't have cash flow to fund operations, this TV money gives them that and then some. It's largely understood that if games were missed, the money "owed" would be put back in an extension of the next round of TV rights negotiations, and spread out over multiple years if not forgiven entirely for other incentives like broadband rights or added games if the league goes to an 18-game schedule as planned. What the players don't make, they don't make. All the owners will really be doing is accruing some incremental indebtedness that is WELL covered by future revenues.
Not sure I follow this. If the lockout occurs this year, the owners will most definitely have lost a LOT of money over the following several years. The money will be "lost" by them just as much as it will have been lost by the players. Being spread out, or "forgiven" (a misnomer I think) is just hiding that lost revenue. If the networks "forgive" some of the debt due to an 18 game season for example, that's just extra money the league would have made (on top) otherwise.I think the relevant point is that some of the owners might be able to survive the near-term loss better than some of the players will. Both sides would lose roughly a "years worth" of money if there is a lockout. Its just that the players will lose their share right up front and the owners will lose theirs over several years which is compounded by the fact that players have a much shorter "career" than owners do. It's a nice advantage but it's not like it's free money as some have implied. There is still plenty of incentive for the owners to get a deal done.
:mellow: Bottom line, it's lost money. And a lot of it. The owners don't want any part of that.

 
I am 100% behind the players until the NFL shows a little more transparency than nothing at all when it comes to the books. Dont know how you can reasonably expect workers to take that big of a pay cut without showing why. Now if they do open up their books and the numbers show that it's not that sustainable the way we are going, then I'll be all for the owners if the players still ask for more.
I know that seems to be a big beef for the players, but it just seems like public posturing to me. Everything I've read seems to indicate that all parties already know 95% of what's going on revenue-wise on a macro level. Heck, the publicly available info seems fairly detailed to me.If the owners want to keep their internal workings somewhat less than completely transparent, I don't understand why that shouldn't be their prerogative. Why not just concentrate on what a fair overall percentage should be?Edit: Cobalt beat me to it.
 
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I am 100% behind the players until the NFL shows a little more transparency than nothing at all when it comes to the books. Dont know how you can reasonably expect workers to take that big of a pay cut without showing why. Now if they do open up their books and the numbers show that it's not that sustainable the way we are going, then I'll be all for the owners if the players still ask for more.
I know that seems to be a big beef for the players, but it just seems like public posturing to me. Everything I've read seems to indicate that all parties already know 95% of what's going on revenue-wise on a macro level. Heck, the publicly available info seems fairly detailed to me.If the owners want to keep their internal workings somewhat less than completely transparent, I don't understand why that shouldn't be their prerogative. Why not just concentrate on what a fair overall percentage should be?Edit: Cobalt beat me to it.
The more the merrier. :blackdot:
 
Not sure I follow this. If the lockout occurs this year, the owners will most definitely have lost a LOT of money over the following several years. The money will be "lost" by them just as much as it will have been lost by the players. Being spread out, or "forgiven" (a misnomer I think) is just hiding that lost revenue. If the networks "forgive" some of the debt due to an 18 game season for example, that's just extra money the league would have made (on top) otherwise.I think the relevant point is that some of the owners might be able to survive the near-term loss better than some of the players will. Both sides would lose roughly a "years worth" of money if there is a lockout. Its just that the players will lose their share right up front and the owners will lose theirs over several years which is compounded by the fact that players have a much shorter "career" than owners do. It's a nice advantage but it's not like it's free money as some have implied. There is still plenty of incentive for the owners to get a deal done.
Where is an Excel spreedsheet app for our forums when I need one? :hey:There are two issues here:1) The owners stand to lose billions, even if they keep the $4.5 billion "loan" from TV revenues, so I agree they have an incentive. There's another $5 BILLION that they would leave on the table2) But the $4.5 billion "lockout insurance" we're talking about is different. Think of it like a time shift in payments. Whereas without the lockout the owners would be receiving X amount per year for THAT year. Now they would be receiving X amount per year a year in ADVANCE.For those who don't think there's any difference owing money immediately and owing it years down the road, just think where you would be without your mortgage, or your ability to make car payments over 5 years, or your ability to go to college with today's tuition, or a company's ability to build a new building, etc..Either way though, I agree that the owners don't want to leave ANY money on the table if it can be avoided. I just think they understood from jump street that they wanted big changes and put themselves into the position to force the players to acquiesce.
 
While it's true the owners would owe the money with interest, you are overstating the significance of that. The owners would only be worried if they didn't have cash flow to fund operations, this TV money gives them that and then some. It's largely understood that if games were missed, the money "owed" would be put back in an extension of the next round of TV rights negotiations, and spread out over multiple years if not forgiven entirely for other incentives like broadband rights or added games if the league goes to an 18-game schedule as planned. What the players don't make, they don't make. All the owners will really be doing is accruing some incremental indebtedness that is WELL covered by future revenues.
Money lost...is money lost. All of those things which would have brought in extra money...won't. Folks keep trying to paint this as if the owners won't be losing money...and that's simply FALSE. They'll lose money, and that amount will be in the billions in the end.All the 2011 TV money gaurentees is that they'll remain solvent in the worst case scenario. It doesn't lessen the actual losses of the worst case scenario. The owners are being seen as holding a sledgehammer, but that sledge is not made of iron...it's hollow, painted tin-foil which just looks like a sledgehammer.

 
Where is an Excel spreedsheet app for our forums when I need one? :hey:There are two issues here:1) The owners stand to lose billions, even if they keep the $4.5 billion "loan" from TV revenues, so I agree they have an incentive. There's another $5 BILLION that they would leave on the table2) But the $4.5 billion "lockout insurance" we're talking about is different. Think of it like a time shift in payments. Whereas without the lockout the owners would be receiving X amount per year for THAT year. Now they would be receiving X amount per year a year in ADVANCE.For those who don't think there's any difference owing money immediately and owing it years down the road, just think where you would be without your mortgage, or your ability to make car payments over 5 years, or your ability to go to college with today's tuition, or a company's ability to build a new building, etc..Either way though, I agree that the owners don't want to leave ANY money on the table if it can be avoided. I just think they understood from jump street that they wanted big changes and put themselves into the position to force the players to acquiesce.
We aren't talking about a 30 year loan. The networks aren't banks. It was my understanding that this "loan" would be paid back fairly quickly...over the course of just 4 or 5 years. A term that short goes a very long way towards nullifying your position.I'm not trying to say that this loan has no impact on negotiations. Keeping some of the owners solvent and keeping the core of their personell intact is very important and the loan makes that possible in the worst case. I'm saying that the value of it as a (non)motivator is GROSSLY overstated. It's nothing but an insurance policy to ensure survival.
 

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