It was a total non-issue until Trump blew it up. The owners even discussed this in their private conversations. It's beyond naive to think this is a race issue.
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NFL Policy On Anthem - What do you say? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Borden
Footballguy
If it were illegal then there wouldn’t be a poll asking what we thought because either it wouldn’t happen or it would be immediately met with lawyers from the PA and stopped. So, unless you think that your company’s corporate policy is also US law then it’s not illegal for companies to allow protesting either.
spider321
Footballguy
The fact remains, that it is legal for employers, ALL employers, to NOT allow protesting. ...but I don’t believe you are really that slow, so you already knew that. I have faith in you, my friend. ?
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The Gator
Footballguy
wish i could like this more than once
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chinawildman
Footballguy
We can sit around and pontificate about the righteousness of whatever stance we have, but does it ultimately matter if you still wind up a consumer of the product on Sundays? The game of supply and demand doesn't really care about your opinions. Guess I think hating on the NFL but not to the point of sacrificing your sundays sounds a bit like having your cake while trying to eat it.The question wasn’t whether the NFL should be allowed to do it. And just because you don’t like one thing doesn’t mean that you can’t discuss it or are going to give up on the whole thing. The whole purpose of the question (and message boards in general) is to discuss it. I bet a lot of Raiders fans don’t like the tuck rule, it doesn’t mean they quit watching football.
Spider probably doesn’t like me right now but that doesn’t mean he’s going to give up on “us”.
chinawildman
Footballguy
I don't even know what to say to that... you do realize why players were kneeling in the first place right?
-OZ-
Footballguy
Voted don't like it, because I think it's a stupid policy to appease the masses of ignorant fans who think protesting makes one unpatriotic. Really, protesting is very much a part of patriotism. Our country was founded on certain principles which include the right to protest, and imo the duty to do what is right.
I don't think kneeling accomplished much, other than possibly opening dialogue, but it got blown out of proportion.
At the same time, businesses also have the right to set their policies, which the NFL did, unanimously apparently. So while I'd prefer each team to set their own policy, I guess that wouldn't have mattered?
I don't think kneeling accomplished much, other than possibly opening dialogue, but it got blown out of proportion.
At the same time, businesses also have the right to set their policies, which the NFL did, unanimously apparently. So while I'd prefer each team to set their own policy, I guess that wouldn't have mattered?
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
They sort of can. The policy, as currently written is vague and ambiguous and contains this statement ":"Each club may develop its own work rules, consistent with the above principles, regarding its personnel who do not stand and show respect for the flag and the anthem." Jets CEO, Christopher Johnson, has already stated there will be no repercussions of any kind for his players and he would handle any fines.
The nature of that unanimous vote is also unclear. There are reports owners were polled as to how they'd vote, but that an official vote wasn't taken. York of the 49ers abstained because he wanted player input and there are reports that Mark Davis did, also. He's previously been on record condoning player protests while in uniform. Christopher Johns said "you have to understand that the plan we ended up with, due to some serious work in the [meeting] room, was vastly less onerous than the one that was presented to me late last week. In the end, I felt I had to support it from a membership standpoint.” But he's not really supporting it in practice and I imagine he won't be alone.
brewer
Footballguy
All the NFL did with this rule is to make sure that the issue does not go away any time soon. Politicians will continue to talk about this as a win(which it isn't). Those who feel disrespected somehow by the most peaceful protest in the history of man will rail against those who choose to stay in the locker room rather than be perceived as part of the league's agenda. All this did was increase the divide between the league owners, execs and the players.
The Frankman
Footballguy
Doesn't fix anything... so I'm like "What was the point of this charade by the owners?"
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
The point, simply, is to attempt to minimize these
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/934026050388013056?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fearly-lead%2Fwp%2F2017%2F11%2F28%2Ftrump-tweets-that-nfl-is-weak-and-out-of-control-because-of-players-national-anthem-demonstrations%2F&tfw_creator=cindyboren&tfw_site=WashingtonPost
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/934026050388013056?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fearly-lead%2Fwp%2F2017%2F11%2F28%2Ftrump-tweets-that-nfl-is-weak-and-out-of-control-because-of-players-national-anthem-demonstrations%2F&tfw_creator=cindyboren&tfw_site=WashingtonPost
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/934026050388013056?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fearly-lead%2Fwp%2F2017%2F11%2F28%2Ftrump-tweets-that-nfl-is-weak-and-out-of-control-because-of-players-national-anthem-demonstrations%2F&tfw_creator=cindyboren&tfw_site=WashingtonPost
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/934026050388013056?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fearly-lead%2Fwp%2F2017%2F11%2F28%2Ftrump-tweets-that-nfl-is-weak-and-out-of-control-because-of-players-national-anthem-demonstrations%2F&tfw_creator=cindyboren&tfw_site=WashingtonPost
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The more I think about this, the more I think -- as much as I support the players' right to protest -- they really blew this whole thing from a tactical perspective. What they probably should have done was declare victory last year and announce that, having used the protests to gain awareness of police brutality, they were shifting to a new approach.* Sure, Trump and his ilk would have declared victory, but you can't let stuff like that dictate your actions.
The problem, ultimately, was that they painted themselves into a corner. Once you start a protest like this, when do you stop? When all police killings of African Americans end? When racism is eliminated? Even if those were realistic goals, the owners weren't the ones in a position to make them happen. Add in the fact that NFLPA has the least amount of leverage of any of the major sports unions, and that Trump's demagoguery of the issue was entirely predictable, and it should have been clear that time wasn't on their side.
As with many protest movements, this one started completely spontaneously. Kaepernick didn't even announce it; he just started sitting through the anthem, and it took a couple games before anyone even noticed. At this point, the method of protesting has overshadowed every other part of the discussion, which is kind of silly. There's nothing inherently valuable in a national anthem protest. It was just a way for players to leverage a large platform to get out a message they wanted to deliver.
So what should they do now? Ending the protests now in the aftermath of the owners' announcement would be even more humiliating, but I'm a believer in avoiding the sunk-cost fallacy. If they don't have much to gain by continuing the anthem protests, the players should take their lumps now rather than digging in just to prove a point.
* Can't remember the exact details, but I think there was a proposal to do something along those lines last year, and the owners did agree to fund a bunch of social-justice programs, but one player faction wouldn't sign on to it and wanted to keep protesting.
The problem, ultimately, was that they painted themselves into a corner. Once you start a protest like this, when do you stop? When all police killings of African Americans end? When racism is eliminated? Even if those were realistic goals, the owners weren't the ones in a position to make them happen. Add in the fact that NFLPA has the least amount of leverage of any of the major sports unions, and that Trump's demagoguery of the issue was entirely predictable, and it should have been clear that time wasn't on their side.
As with many protest movements, this one started completely spontaneously. Kaepernick didn't even announce it; he just started sitting through the anthem, and it took a couple games before anyone even noticed. At this point, the method of protesting has overshadowed every other part of the discussion, which is kind of silly. There's nothing inherently valuable in a national anthem protest. It was just a way for players to leverage a large platform to get out a message they wanted to deliver.
So what should they do now? Ending the protests now in the aftermath of the owners' announcement would be even more humiliating, but I'm a believer in avoiding the sunk-cost fallacy. If they don't have much to gain by continuing the anthem protests, the players should take their lumps now rather than digging in just to prove a point.
* Can't remember the exact details, but I think there was a proposal to do something along those lines last year, and the owners did agree to fund a bunch of social-justice programs, but one player faction wouldn't sign on to it and wanted to keep protesting.
matuski
Footballguy
Where is the "don't care" option?
Please let me watch football.
Start a separate reality TV series about whether a guy is or isn't going to kneel before a game, and all of the apparently riveting drama that goes with it. You can have an episode where people turn their TVs off in protest. You can have an episode where people equate taking a knee to treason. A couple episodes where fans in the seats yell at each other about constitutional rights. Maybe an episode where a Kardashian kneels on the sideline too. Then the last episode there could be a race war over some guys kneeling during a song before a football game.
Go for it. I'll watch the game.
Please let me watch football.
Start a separate reality TV series about whether a guy is or isn't going to kneel before a game, and all of the apparently riveting drama that goes with it. You can have an episode where people turn their TVs off in protest. You can have an episode where people equate taking a knee to treason. A couple episodes where fans in the seats yell at each other about constitutional rights. Maybe an episode where a Kardashian kneels on the sideline too. Then the last episode there could be a race war over some guys kneeling during a song before a football game.
Go for it. I'll watch the game.
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Chaka
Footballguy
Y'know, pooping isn't in my job description...
Where do you stand on voting?
Is a MAGA hat or an I'm With Her (stupidest slogan ever) shirt acceptable? What about an "I Voted" pin? A peace sign or a Hail Satan (or the Hypno-Toad) button? What about social media or message boards posts? Is it okay for management or ownership to do any or all of these things? How specific is your corporate policy on these things? Where do you draw the lines?
And "Standing for the anthem" wasn't in Kaepernick's job description either.
Chaka
Footballguy
Can't wait for Memorial Day weekend so I get to see all the people who think the flag and anthem are so sacred vomiting on their flag emblazoned clothes, throwing away flag emblazoned paper plates, utensils, solo cups etc driving their cars with flag emblazoned truck nuts on them.
So patriotic.
So patriotic.
GregR
Footballguy
Ok, someone unpack these statements for me.
The NFL's policy is players can stay in the locker room during the anthem, or come out but if they come out they have to stand respectfully.
The NBA's policy per ESPN:
How is it the NFL's policy is idiotic for not allowing players to kneel, but instead letting them skip the anthem... while the NBA's policy that requires attending the anthem and doesn't let them kneel, is a sign of a league that understands patriotism?
Other than noting the "why" NFL players are kneeling, seems like the rest of it Kerr is totally talking out of his ###. Why is the NBA to be praised as supporting peaceful protest when they don't let players kneel, and won't even let players skip the anthem?
Chaka
Footballguy
Florio broke this down a bit and I think it comes down to the fact that historically NBA owners have been much more in line with players on social fronts like charity or even politically. Also the NBA had player representatives involved in the discussion when they established their anthem policy.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Agreed. Politics discussions suck. Always. Keep it away from grown men playing a game that I am watching as entertainment. No wonder I watch less NFL each year. The NFL is stupid and deteriorating as a product.
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
Yes, Malcolm Jenkins, who leads the Players Coalition, did what you suggest, and no longer raises his fist. A couple of players, including Eric Reid, didn't like how he was handling things and left the Coalition. There were only about 6-8 protesters last year (after a brief bump in reaction to Trump comments subsided)
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/malcolm-jenkins-im-not-a-sellout-nfl-protests-were-never-about-the-money/
OK, that's what I thought. So I guess what I'm saying is Jenkins probably had the right idea, and Reid miscalculated.
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
Jenkins is thoughtful. And awesome. He went to Harrisburg on a Tuesday morning after a Monday night game ( with Chris Long and Torrey Smith IIRC) to discuss criminal justice reform with state lawmakers.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I don't care.
I really never understood the point of doing the national anthem before sporting events anyway. I mean, why?? Why don't we do it before dinner, movies, bonfires, TV shows, plays, concerts, sex, work, golf, exercise, day care, taking a shower................................
why sporting events?
It makes sense for the olympics, but a week 8 game on a sunday between the Browns and the Dolphins??
I really never understood the point of doing the national anthem before sporting events anyway. I mean, why?? Why don't we do it before dinner, movies, bonfires, TV shows, plays, concerts, sex, work, golf, exercise, day care, taking a shower................................
why sporting events?
It makes sense for the olympics, but a week 8 game on a sunday between the Browns and the Dolphins??
daveR
Footballguy
Would you fire someone for standing at attention while the National Anthem played, thereby expressing the political opinion, "America uber alles"?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
Do you remove your hat and stand at attention when you're watching a game alone at home?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I support the military . . . my family is full of vets or ex-vets. And I support freedom of speech / expression / the right to protest something.
But I watch football because I like watching football. I was fine when the players weren't on the field for the anthem. I would be fine if they didn't televise the anthem at all. And I would be fine if they didn't have a bunch of pregame discussion or talking points on the keys to the game. I'd be all in favor of the broadcast starting right as the kicker was kicking off.
But I watch football because I like watching football. I was fine when the players weren't on the field for the anthem. I would be fine if they didn't televise the anthem at all. And I would be fine if they didn't have a bunch of pregame discussion or talking points on the keys to the game. I'd be all in favor of the broadcast starting right as the kicker was kicking off.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I have not read through this entire thread, but I see a lot of comments regarding place of employment and not embarrassing your employer - which I can agree with. That said, wasn't it up to the employer long before the president called them names I'm not allowed to repeat here? I mean, before this all blew up, couldn't the team discipline or fine players if they were upset with the kneeling? Why can't we take the politics out of this and actually let the teams decide for themselves.
daveR
Footballguy
Back in the day, they used to say, "Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer." You asked a stupid question.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
He said he doesnt want political stuff going on with his employees at his job. You asked if he would fire someone for standing at attention for the national anthem.
I asked you why the national anthem would be playing at his place of work, considering what he just said pretty obviously implies he would not be playing the national anthem for his employees.
I believe your question led the stupid parade here which continued with you asking me what I do at my own home. . You have the engine and the caboose of this stupid question train.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
This whole topic is annoying, and it feels like it will never go away.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
It's odd that of all the sports only the NFL every has widespread publicity for stuff like this, from the anthem to women beaters to weed. The NFL is doing something very, very wrong on these particular PR fronts.
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Amused to Death
Footballguy
Why couldn't the owners do this with their employees/players without a new rule in place?
-OZ-
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Salary cap ramificationsAmused to Death said:
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