No indictment in NYPD chokehold death (1 Viewer)

[Card Trader]

Sad this man died the first time he got arrested :(

 

[StrikeS2k]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

 

[Henry Ford]

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I, for one, am shocked that you feel this was justified.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I'm usually pro police / #### protester type, but this cop performed an illegal choke hold, then a group of cops ignored his pleas for life. This situation was botched and it cost this man his life. On another note, if protesters weren't so ####### stupid and didn't try to ruin a tree lighting, maybe people like me would be more inclined to care about this situation.

So you care more about a tree lighting being interrupted than a man dying at the hands of police for selling cigarettes without a license?

What do the families with little children out for a nice evening have to do with this? What do the ambulances being blocked in the street with people who need help have to do with this? What do the commuters trying to get home to their families now being trapped in a gridlock mess have to do with it?

 

[timschochet]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I'm usually pro police / #### protester type, but this cop performed an illegal choke hold, then a group of cops ignored his pleas for life. This situation was botched and it cost this man his life.On another note, if protesters weren't so ####### stupid and didn't try to ruin a tree lighting, maybe people like me would be more inclined to care about this situation.

So you care more about a tree lighting being interrupted than a man dying at the hands of police for selling cigarettes without a license?

What do the families with little children out for a nice evening have to do with this? What do the ambulances being blocked in the street with people who need help have to do with this? What do the commuters trying to get home to their families now being trapped in a gridlock mess have to do with it?

Once again, poor.

 

[Native]

According to Section 15.05 of the Penal Code, a person acts "recklessly" with respect to a result or circumstance when he or she is "aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists." The risk that the person creates must be of such nature or magnitude that his or her disregard of it constitutes a "gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation."

So if I were to come up with an explanation off the top of my head, grand jury may have felt that the this guy dropping dead was not a foreseeable risk that the officer would have been aware of and thus disregarded.

His thinking would have to be something like: "If I chokehold this guy, he could die, but I'm going to do it anyway."

Again, just off the top of my uninformed head. Maybe a lawyer will check in.

The part that gets me is the "gross deviation from the standard of conduct". If the grand jury knew the chokehold was illegal and there a deviaton from standard conduct, how could they not classify his action as "reckless" and therefore culpable of manslaughter?

That part is still talking about "the risk" that is disregarded. So even though chokeholds are not allowed and he did it anyway, in order to fit into the definition of recklessness, he has to be aware of the risk that he's creating, and have disregarded it. I think that the risk has to be something that's "reasonably foreseeable" or something like that. The "risk" that we're talking about here is the risk of causing this guy to die. He would have to be aware of that risk, and made a decision to take that risk and chokehold him anyway (I think).

What would you think the normal risks created are when you grab someone by the throat? Bruising? Discomfort? Temporarily limiting air supply? Probably those things. But the guy dropping dead of a heart attack? I wouldn't have considered that a reasonable possibility.

Now this guy maybe can/should be held to a higher standard being a police officer and knowing that chokeholds aren't allowed for a reason (maybe they were banned because someone died in 2008 or something, no idea). Just trying to come up with what may have gone in with the grand jury.

I hear you. But if Im the grand jury, I know that the chokehold was banned specifically because its dangerous. So if a cop uses an illegal maneuver that is dangerous, I would assume that means that he "disregarded the risk" as stated by the NYPD handbook.

.

 

[Kasparov]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

Missing the point by a wide margin.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Go masterbate in your daughters bed or tell me how good you can drive on 22 vodkas Bateman. You're who I expect in this protesting crowd.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

Missing the point by a wide margin.

Really not. Shows that you guys are.

 

[SIDA!]

When a police officer tells you to do something, do it. How ####### hard is it?

People are ####### fed up with over policing and excessive use of force. Police need to use judgment in maintaining the peace. Sure, Eric Garner could have been more compliant here, but once he is wrestled to the ground and put in a choke hold he seems to stop resisting and is practically begging the officer to let him breath.

I think you are kind of touching on a bigger issue and that is the over policing angle.

It has gotten to the point in this country where it is damn near impossible to leave the house and not commit a crime or violate the law in some way. I have some buddies who are cops and they are like, if you go by the letter of the law, we could find a reason to give anyone a ticket every day.

I am sick and tired of feeling like a subject to my government. The laws being passed are nanny state laws and/or designed to extract revenue from the citizenry. It just gets more and more burdensome as it encroaches on us.

seatbelt laws to helmets for motorcyclists to cell phone while driving laws

anti smoking laws where you can't even smoke in your own house or apartment in some places

speed traps evolve into red light cameras that evolve into speeding cameras on freeways

dumb sobriety checkpoints

a litany of dumb laws pertaining to car modifications/customizations, etc.

Government just needs to get the #### out of our lives.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Go masterbate in your daughters bed or tell me how good you can drive on 22 vodkas Bateman. You're who I expect in this protesting crowd.

Once again, poor.

 

[General Tso]

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I'm usually pro police / #### protester type, but this cop performed an illegal choke hold, then a group of cops ignored his pleas for life. This situation was botched and it cost this man his life. On another note, if protesters weren't so ####### stupid and didn't try to ruin a tree lighting, maybe people like me would be more inclined to care about this situation.

So you care more about a tree lighting being interrupted than a man dying at the hands of police for selling cigarettes without a license?

What do the families with little children out for a nice evening have to do with this? What do the ambulances being blocked in the street with people who need help have to do with this? What do the commuters trying to get home to their families now being trapped in a gridlock mess have to do with it?

It's rare I quote Martin Luther King twice in one day, but here it goes... "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". There's a revolution brewing out there. Your "let them eat cake" attitude isn't going to play well.

 

[Kasparov]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

Missing the point by a wide margin.

Really not. Shows that you guys are.

No, you really are missing the point you just don't know it yet.

 

[Jayrod]

When a police officer tells you to do something, do it. How ####### hard is it?

People are ####### fed up with over policing and excessive use of force. Police need to use judgment in maintaining the peace. Sure, Eric Garner could have been more compliant here, but once he is wrestled to the ground and put in a choke hold he seems to stop resisting and is practically begging the officer to let him breath.

They let him breath. The whole thing took like 20 seconds.

Also, even the guy video taping doesn't seem to think his life was in danger. I don't think anyone could have reasonably thought Garner was actually dying in that short amount of time.

Outside of saying "I Can't Breathe" 11 times.

The obvious is lost on some people here.

There isn't one person on the scene, police or otherwise who seem to think his life was in danger on the scene.

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I, for one, am shocked that you feel this was justified.

Justified? It was an accident. He didn't die because he was put in a choke hold. He died because he had a very weak cardiovascular system. I've watched the video about 10 times tonight. No normally healthy person of that size and age would have even suffered a thing from what transpired.

 

[seahawk 17]

When a police officer tells you to do something, do it. How ####### hard is it?

When a guy you're detaining for loose cigarettes tells you he can't breathe and then stops moving, immediately call EMS. How ####### hard is that?

I agree, but in this situation along with the Brown incident and countless others...none of the aftermath occurs if you follow orders.

 

[fantasycurse42]

A revolution?

Anyone who says that is in the same bucket of a conspiracy theorist.

800-1000 people protesting in NYC today. Go read up on how insignificant that number is in comparison to the population here.

 

[timschochet]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

 

[seahawk 17]

When a police officer tells you to do something, do it. How ####### hard is it?

When a guy you're detaining for loose cigarettes tells you he can't breathe and then stops moving, immediately call EMS. How ####### hard is that?

Agree with Ford, Henry.Also, you owe me beer I think. Love you.

I am such a flake...you still at the same address?

 

[Jayrod]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.

Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

 

[Gawain]

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I'm usually pro police / #### protester type, but this cop performed an illegal choke hold, then a group of cops ignored his pleas for life. This situation was botched and it cost this man his life.On another note, if protesters weren't so ####### stupid and didn't try to ruin a tree lighting, maybe people like me would be more inclined to care about this situation.

So you care more about a tree lighting being interrupted than a man dying at the hands of police for selling cigarettes without a license?

What do the families with little children out for a nice evening have to do with this? What do the ambulances being blocked in the street with people who need help have to do with this? What do the commuters trying to get home to their families now being trapped in a gridlock mess have to do with it?

It's rare I quote Martin Luther King twice in one day, but here it goes... "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".There's a revolution brewing out there. Your "let them eat cake" attitude isn't going to play well.

That may be, but it isn't going to start in NYC.

There's too much money and too many people doing well for themselves.

The people who aren't doing well are getting by on money from the government.

People who are fed and distracted don't brew revolution.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.

Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

You're ignorant of history.

 

[dutch]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/eric-garner-death-ruled-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808

"After several people were asphyxiated while in police custody, the NYPD forbade the use of chokeholds in 1983, stating it could only be used when an officer’s life was in danger.

Former Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly banned the use of chokeholds altogether in 1993.

The following year, Bronx resident Anthony Baez, 29, died after Officer Francis Livoti put him in a chokehold after a football he was throwing around with friends hit the cop’s car.

In the wake of Garner’s death, Bratton ordered that the NYPD’s 35,000 officers be retrained in the proper use of force when subduing a suspect."

[SIZE=14.2857141494751px]Also, Daniel Pantaleo, the officer who administered the chokehold, was only a nine year vet of the NYPD so by timeline he was never officially trained in the use of the chokehold and therefore never had reason to have to retrain himself. [/SIZE]

 

[Annyong]

When a police officer tells you to do something, do it. How ####### hard is it?

When a guy you're detaining for loose cigarettes tells you he can't breathe and then stops moving, immediately call EMS. How ####### hard is that?

Agree with Ford, Henry.Also, you owe me beer I think. Love you.

I am such a flake...you still at the same address?

Probably

 

[timschochet]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.

Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

But that's not a good argument. In fact, it demonstrates why Strike is, as usual, totally wrong.

The reason you know a lot about Brown and Garner is because they're emblematic of a bigger problem: the way blacks are treated differently in this country by white policeman. That was something you conveniently left out of your analysis of this situation, BTW. Zerby and Thomas didn't get a lot of press (other than locally) because it's much more rare and not emblematic of a national problem. (Thomas did get some national attention on CNN.)

 

[Native]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

Sarcasm aside, Ive thought about this for a while. There are several issues that are being muddled into a single narrative which is causing all kinds of needless tumult. The issues should be treated separately so people stop blurring the lines:

1. Racial Bias: Dont think that was the case with Eric Garner but the cast of characters (white cop, black victim) make it an easy target for protesters calling for implicit discrimination. IMO this was more "big guy" bias than "black bias" but thats another story

2. Excessive Police Force / Brutality: Relevant here, and relevant in the cases you mention above. Probably not as much of an issue in the Michael Brown case (despite the masive protests) based on the witness and ballistic evidence provided to the grand jury.

3. Flaws in the Justice System: The big culprit in this case, IMO. The law, as being practiced today, is not aptly safeguarding its citizens. Cops (and people in general), frequently make bad choices and no amount of training or reform will right every bad apple or fix every unforunate accident. But the justice system is meant to be the great equalizer. Its job is to uphold the law and mandate consequences for bad actions. And it certainly seems like its not doing so which causes people to doubt the system and rage in its absence.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

I'd bet $20 that you never heard of either of these guys until I posted their stories. Of course there's no way to ever prove it so we won't bet. But you didn't even post in those threads so I know you weren't really personally impacted like you say you were. Just another couple of lies. I'm starting to wonder if you even have a black friend in the park.

 

[General Tso]

A revolution?

Anyone who says that is in the same bucket of a conspiracy theorist.

800-1000 people protesting in NYC today. Go read up on how insignificant that number is in comparison to the population here.

LOL. Well, it was significant enough to piss you off, so it's a start.

 

[Dickies]

Maybe I live under a rock, but this is the first I've heard of this case. Just watched the video and it's disgusting. How anyone in this thread can even defend the police here is beyond me. Not only do they go completely over the top when they take him down, they pin him there for an extended period of time as he is struggling to tell them he can't breathe, but he goes limp and they just sit around and do nothing except yell at bystanders to get away. I don't even understand why they are waiting for the EMTs. My wife is an elementary school teacher and is required by her district to know CPR, so I have to believe police officers know CPR too. Do SOMETHING

Once the guy stopped breathing they realized the screwed up, and instead of helping him they immediately into coverup mode.

 

[Jayrod]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.

Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

You're ignorant of history.

No I'm not.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.

Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

But that's not a good argument. In fact, it demonstrates why Strike is, as usual, totally wrong.

The reason you know a lot about Brown and Garner is because they're emblematic of a bigger problem: the way blacks are treated differently in this country by white policeman. That was something you conveniently left out of your analysis of this situation, BTW. Zerby and Thomas didn't get a lot of press (other than locally) because it's much more rare and not emblematic of a national problem. (Thomas did get some national attention on CNN.)

First of all, it would be "policemen" not policeman. Mister grammar. But more importantly, that's simply your opinion.

 

[SIDA!]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.

Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

As a white, middle aged male, I am pretty frustrated by some of the actions we are seeing members of our police forces engage in. But, I don't feel much is going to change until white America becomes more critical of these episodes. And I don't think it is purely a racial issue. I was shocked when the officers who murdered Kelly Thomas got off.

White America loves their cops. And in fairness to officers who have arguably the most difficult job in America, the overwhelming majority do great work and deal with some of the most vile and disgusting human beings on the planet. Our cops sit on a reservoir of goodwill.

Call me cynical, but unless or until a "normal, average white male" gets killed by an officer who abused his power/discretion, nothing is going to change. If you were looking at this from a Machiavellian perspective and I was a black leader or on the left, I would jump all over a police shooting with a white male suspect.

 

[Card Trader]

This dude had been arrested more than 30 THIRTY!!! times

 

[timschochet]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

I'd bet $20 that you never heard of either of these guys until I posted their stories. Of course there's no way to ever prove it so we won't bet. But you didn't even post in those threads so I know you weren't really personally impacted like you say you were. Just another couple of lies. I'm starting to wonder if you even have a black friend in the park.

This is the 3rd or 4th time you have called me a liar in this forum. You're right, I can't prove to you that I didn't lie about knowing who those guys were. Hopefully there are other people here who believe in my integrity. But if they choose to believe your accusation, not much I can do about that.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Can anyone in this thread guess what percentage of the NYPD is white without looking it up?

 

[Jayrod]

Can anyone in this thread guess what percentage of the NYPD is white without looking it up?

I did look it up.

Less than 50% as of 2010.

 

[MC Gas Money]

Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

― Henry David Thoreau

Amen

 

[dutch]

How many of the cops and EMS responders on scene with Garner were black?

 

[fantasycurse42]

Can anyone in this thread guess what percentage of the NYPD is white without looking it up?

The answer is 46% and continuing to slide downward. I'd be happy if it was 0% white, that way everyone would just shut the #### up. Anyone read this story? Ruled a homicide, happened less than a month ago; http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Akai-Gurley-Peter-Liang-NYPD-Pink-Houses-Shooting-Homicide-Ruling-283696031.html

Rookie officer shoots/kills unarmed innocent man in project stairwell. You know why you haven't heard about this one? BC the cop wasn't white. Get rid of all the white cops for all I care. You'll still have the same problems of officer mishaps, same crime rates amongst the people committing crimes, and the same protesters #####ing about God knows what.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

Missing the point by a wide margin.

I guess I'm missing it too. At the very least, the Kelly Thomas death should be in the current discussion. Why isn't it?

 

[MC Gas Money]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Especially Tim because these happened in his backyard. Tim can get all up in arms about black guys across the country not getting justice, but he doesn't even know who these white guys were who were killed by cops in his own backyard. Disgusting.

Im extremely outraged about Kelly Thomas

 

[MC Gas Money]

Just watched the video for the first time. While not aggressive, he was belligerent. And while he didn't fight them, he was resisting arrest.

So what are the police supposed to do in this situation? They are there to uphold the law and have seen this guy break the law (no matter how minor you think it is). So this guy breaks the law and then refuses to cooperate. What then? Talk him to death? Negotiate for hours with a 400 lb man? They try to arrest him and he resists. What then?

So you clearly see that they attempt to put cuffs on him and he jerks away. At that point they are allowed to subdue the person they are trying to arrest. While the choke hold is no longer approved, it was likely part of the training at some point. Once you start grappling with a 400 lb dude, it may be hard to remember exactly which subduing moves are permissible and which ones are. Likely he just went to his instincts to gain control of the situation.

I'm usually pro police / #### protester type, but this cop performed an illegal choke hold, then a group of cops ignored his pleas for life. This situation was botched and it cost this man his life. On another note, if protesters weren't so ####### stupid and didn't try to ruin a tree lighting, maybe people like me would be more inclined to care about this situation.

So you care more about a tree lighting being interrupted than a man dying at the hands of police for selling cigarettes without a license?

What do the families with little children out for a nice evening have to do with this? What do the ambulances being blocked in the street with people who need help have to do with this? What do the commuters trying to get home to their families now being trapped in a gridlock mess have to do with it?

It's rare I quote Martin Luther King twice in one day, but here it goes... "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". There's a revolution brewing out there. Your "let them eat cake" attitude isn't going to play well.

His panties are just in a twist because he was stuck in traffic for a few minutes while people excersize their rights.

He will calm down after a dinner of fine italian cuisine from Sbarro

 

[squistion]

This dude had been arrested more than 30 THIRTY!!! times

So because of that, he deserved to die from an illegal chokehold for selling loose untaxed cigarettes?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

I'd bet $20 that you never heard of either of these guys until I posted their stories. Of course there's no way to ever prove it so we won't bet. But you didn't even post in those threads so I know you weren't really personally impacted like you say you were. Just another couple of lies. I'm starting to wonder if you even have a black friend in the park.

This is the 3rd or 4th time you have called me a liar in this forum. You're right, I can't prove to you that I didn't lie about knowing who those guys were. Hopefully there are other people here who believe in my integrity. But if they choose to believe your accusation, not much I can do about that.

I posted about both of those incidents in this forum. Did you or did you not post in those threads with your concerns about them? Yes or No? See, those threads are probably still here. So it's not like I'm making this up.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

To be fair to Strike's point, I've never heard of Thomas or Zerby, yet I know a ton about Brown and Garner.Nowhere near equal public outrage and coverage of the events.

But that's not a good argument. In fact, it demonstrates why Strike is, as usual, totally wrong.The reason you know a lot about Brown and Garner is because they're emblematic of a bigger problem: the way blacks are treated differently in this country by white policeman. That was something you conveniently left out of your analysis of this situation, BTW. Zerby and Thomas didn't get a lot of press (other than locally) because it's much more rare and not emblematic of a national problem. (Thomas did get some national attention on CNN.)

So what is the national problem that folks are protesting? Police corruption, or police racism?

 

[timschochet]

Can anyone in this thread guess what percentage of the NYPD is white without looking it up?

The answer is 46% and continuing to slide downward. I'd be happy if it was 0% white, that way everyone would just shut the #### up.Anyone read this story? Ruled a homicide, happened less than a month ago; http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Akai-Gurley-Peter-Liang-NYPD-Pink-Houses-Shooting-Homicide-Ruling-283696031.html

Black rookie officer shoots/kills unarmed innocent man in project stairwell. You know why you haven't heard about this one? BC the cop was black. Get rid of all the white cops for all I care. You'll still have the same problems of officer mishaps, same crime rates amongst the people committing crimes, and the same protesters #####ing about God knows what.

Sigh. These arguments are repetitive. And so weak, IMO.

Black policemen make mistakes. Just like white policemen do. Sometimes they make lethal mistakes. Sometimes they do things that deserve punishment.

But the reason that those kinds of stories don't get the same attention is because there is no history of black policemen mistreating civilians, just as there is no history of white policemen mistreating white people because they are white.

But there IS a history of white policemen treating black people differently, and worse, that white people, and it continues to this day. You and Strike and whoever else can deny this all you want; you can continue to bring up inane anecdotes in an attempt to contradict it. but it doesn't make any difference. It's happening, and the main reason that there are protests is that blacks know that it's happening to them.

 

[timschochet]

Not one person in this thread expressed outrage at the brutal murder of Douglas Zerby at the hands of overzealous police. He didn't resist, was never asked to do anything, but oh right he was white. Or how about Kelly Thomas. Not one thread. Bunch of racists. Disgusting.

Boy are you predictable.

Disgusting that you can laugh at the brutal deaths of two innocent white guys in your own area. You're a truly vile, disgusting human being.

I wasn't laughing at their deaths. In fact, in the case of Thomas, I made one of my annual contributions to the ACLU specific to their work on that incident, which occurred very close to me in Fullerton. In the case of Zerby, which happened next door in Belmont Shores, I personally know some neighbors of his who were outraged by that incident, and I am very sympathetic to them and to him.

No Strike, I would never laugh at their deaths. I was laughing at you for predictably bringing up white guys when a black guy is killed by the police. Never fails.

I'd bet $20 that you never heard of either of these guys until I posted their stories. Of course there's no way to ever prove it so we won't bet. But you didn't even post in those threads so I know you weren't really personally impacted like you say you were. Just another couple of lies. I'm starting to wonder if you even have a black friend in the park.

This is the 3rd or 4th time you have called me a liar in this forum. You're right, I can't prove to you that I didn't lie about knowing who those guys were. Hopefully there are other people here who believe in my integrity. But if they choose to believe your accusation, not much I can do about that.

I posted about both of those incidents in this forum. Did you or did you not post in those threads with your concerns about them? Yes or No? See, those threads are probably still here. So it's not like I'm making this up.

No I did not, Mr. prosecutor. (Man you love that role!) I didn't see either of them. If I had seen the one on Kelly Thomas I would have posted in it for sure. Probably about Zerby as well.

 

[Jayrod]

Can anyone in this thread guess what percentage of the NYPD is white without looking it up?

The answer is 46% and continuing to slide downward. I'd be happy if it was 0% white, that way everyone would just shut the #### up.Anyone read this story? Ruled a homicide, happened less than a month ago; http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Akai-Gurley-Peter-Liang-NYPD-Pink-Houses-Shooting-Homicide-Ruling-283696031.html

Black rookie officer shoots/kills unarmed innocent man in project stairwell. You know why you haven't heard about this one? BC the cop was black. Get rid of all the white cops for all I care. You'll still have the same problems of officer mishaps, same crime rates amongst the people committing crimes, and the same protesters #####ing about God knows what.

Sigh. These arguments are repetitive. And so weak, IMO.

Black policemen make mistakes. Just like white policemen do. Sometimes they make lethal mistakes. Sometimes they do things that deserve punishment.

But the reason that those kinds of stories don't get the same attention is because there is no history of black policemen mistreating civilians, just as there is no history of white policemen mistreating white people because they are white.

But there IS a history of white policemen treating black people differently, and worse, that white people, and it continues to this day. You and Strike and whoever else can deny this all you want; you can continue to bring up inane anecdotes in an attempt to contradict it. but it doesn't make any difference. It's happening, and the main reason that there are protests is that blacks know that it's happening to them.

In neither case is there any evidence of racism, yet we are discussing it because of race.

 

[fantasycurse42]

The point is human error, not white on black Tim... Even if there were all black cops, you'd still have people claiming profiling/brutality/excessive force/ etc.