"Notes on Being a Man" (3 Viewers)

[dutch]

Aww, you're swell Rock. Enjoy eating lunch alone, again.

 

[Desert_Power]

Back on topic

 

[dkp993]

Guess we really can't handle much more in here that music drafts, huh?

Careful, I got read the riot act for suggesting this a while back.

 

[dkp993]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

 

[Mookie]

FWIW, today is International Men's Day. You can do anything you want so long as your wife or g/f says it's OK.

 

[bigbottom]

FWIW, today is International Men's Day. You can do anything you want so long as your wife or g/f says it's OK.

International Men get their own day now?

 

[Northern Voice]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

 

[RCon]

I'm wondering if we have the cause and affect all wrong on some of this. That is, maybe the decline of "third places" isn't a cause of social issues, maybe it's the necessity of working a second job, overtime, or a side gig that has caused a decline in third place attendance (due to lack of time)?

 

[massraider]

Guess we really can't handle much more in here that music drafts, huh?

Careful, I dot read the riot act for suggesting this a while back.

Really.

That sucks. We should be able to call balls and strikes.

It's a bit of a bummer. It was an interesting topic.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The 40% of bars closing is the least important stat in the whole analysis - yet it is the one getting the most attention here. Interesting

Because the Earth is flat

 

[Harry Frogfish]

Also just looked this guy up.

He's a UCLA grad with an MBA from Cal.

Then rest assured, he knows plenty about not asking girls out.

 

[uwillbsoon]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

 

[Northern Voice]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

 

[uwillbsoon]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

Google tells me the net growth of coffee shops from 2020 to 2025 was 13000.


That's about 7%.

The growth in bars and restaurants in that time is 2%, which includes a spike in closures during the pandemic.

That data also told me that half of bars and restaurants close within five years, so "40% since the pandemic" seems normal.

This was a five second Google search so the data is likely incomplete. Since it groups snack shops in with coffee shops and restaurants with bars, it seems.

But that doesn't seem like alarming data to me at first blush.

 

[Jmiller21kg]

Galloway was on Maher last week and I thought this was a bit wild:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The idea that people need to drink more booze in general is madness to me. Maybe it is my age talking, but far too many ruined their lives with alcohol, and we should be encouraging people in general to drink less alcohol, not more.

Ha! It’s always ironic to me when people suggest alcohol to solve loneliness. A drug that causes you to be more inauthentic and less your genuine self, which in turn is likely to make you MORE lonely. Utilizing alcohol in every social situation as a crutch is also just asking for trouble down the line.

I agree this is disturbing, maybe Maher and Galloway are fortunate to not have someone close to them whose life has been ruined by this poison.

I don’t disagree that the issue is ‘safetyism’, but I think there are a lot of factors that go into play here that have nothing to do with drugs. I recently read The Anxious Generation (very good read) and it touched on this topic. It tied in how a phone based childhood and lack of free independent play has led to this. It’s easy to stay in your bubble nowadays when you can just go live in your virtual world without any risks/issues.

 

[Northern Voice]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

Google tells me the net growth of coffee shops from 2020 to 2025 was 13000.


That's about 7%.

The growth in bars and restaurants in that time is 2%, which includes a spike in closures during the pandemic.

That data also told me that half of bars and restaurants close within five years, so "40% since the pandemic" seems normal.

This was a five second Google search so the data is likely incomplete. Since it groups snack shops in with coffee shops and restaurants with bars, it seems.

But that doesn't seem like alarming data to me at first blush.

Streets tell me this isn't right.

Oh, and my job owning a brewery and running out of places to sell to.

 

[Northern Voice]

Galloway was on Maher last week and I thought this was a bit wild:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The idea that people need to drink more booze in general is madness to me. Maybe it is my age talking, but far too many ruined their lives with alcohol, and we should be encouraging people in general to drink less alcohol, not more.

Ha! It’s always ironic to me when people suggest alcohol to solve loneliness. A drug that causes you to be more inauthentic and less your genuine self, which in turn is likely to make you MORE lonely. Utilizing alcohol in every social situation as a crutch is also just asking for trouble down the line.

I agree this is disturbing, maybe Maher and Galloway are fortunate to not have someone close to them whose life has been ruined by this poison.

I don’t disagree that the issue is ‘safetyism’, but I think there are a lot of factors that go into play here that have nothing to do with drugs. I recently read The Anxious Generation (very good read) and it touched on this topic. It tied in how a phone based childhood and lack of free independent play has led to this. It’s easy to stay in your bubble nowadays when you can just go live in your virtual world without any risks/issues.

Are you married? How did you meet you wife? Still together?

 

[uwillbsoon]

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

I don't know if the 40% is accurate but it doesn't sound all that crazy. I remember reading that it is close to 1 out of 3 bars/restaurants don't survive their first year so 40% being closed since 2020 doesn't sound outrageous. I imagine that 40% doesn't take into all the new places that have opened in that timeframe though

Having run or owned restaurants and bars most of my adult life I can comfortably say that 40% closure number is correct. The problem with the statement as a whole is aligning it only with “after COVID”. It’s been that way since long before COVID. Bottom line, it’s a tough business.

I think tying this back to the last page about drinking/not drinking, it doesn't have to be about the alcohol itself but the decline in "third spaces" for young men these days if you take away a lot of the pubs clubs and restaurants. I feel like we had this discussion here before, Joe might have actually raised it.

For myself, as a young male a lot of those places beyond the home or work that I met with friends did involve alcohol - the bar to meet women, the pub to hear live music, the ball park (or hockey arena, gym, whatever) to play sports with a drink after most of the time.

I know in my area traditional recreational sports (in this area that means rec hockey/baseball/basketball) enrolment is way down in addition to the bars and restaurants closing - and the rec sports that are gaining in popularity (looking right at you pickleball but also badminton, curling, golf) are aimed more at higher income/boomers than young males.

Is there a decline in social spaces?

My impression is Galloway's data point is 40% (or whatever) of bars closed since the pandemic.

My guess is in the five years before the pandemic to the pandemic, that number was close to 40%.

My impression is Galloway cherry picks stats to make a point. He's a marketer. That's what they do.

Anecdotal evidence: I used to be in a coffee desert when I moved into my house twenty years ago.

Now there are three Starbucks within three miles. Those are non alcoholic gathering places that sell drinks full of sugar and caffeine that also have a "lubricating" effect that you'll find a lot of young people in.

I guess it depends where you are but Starbucks just closed 13 locations in Toronto and laid off 900 employees at its head office, so big picture, I don't think that space is booming either.

Google tells me the net growth of coffee shops from 2020 to 2025 was 13000.


That's about 7%.

The growth in bars and restaurants in that time is 2%, which includes a spike in closures during the pandemic.

That data also told me that half of bars and restaurants close within five years, so "40% since the pandemic" seems normal.

This was a five second Google search so the data is likely incomplete. Since it groups snack shops in with coffee shops and restaurants with bars, it seems.

But that doesn't seem like alarming data to me at first blush.

Streets tell me this isn't right.

Oh, and my job owning a brewery and running out of places to sell to.

That data is US-wide. YMMV in your region/Canada.

But my point was less that places that sell alcohol are in decline (very well could be) but that social spaces for youth could have shifted from alcohol-based to something else, like coffee. The data seems to suggest that.

 

[Northern Voice]

That data is US-wide. YMMV in your region/Canada.

But my point was less that places that sell alcohol are in decline (very well could be) but that social spaces for youth could have shifted from alcohol-based to something else, like coffee. The data seems to suggest that.

Could be. I see that as more in line with the shift in leisure activities towards different demographics.

I don't see a lot of young men hanging out in the local coffee shops, mostly more established men and definitely some young women, so I would think if there is a shift from bars to coffee shops it is part of an overall decline in third spaces for young men in particular.

 

[tri-man 47]

FWIW, today is International Men's Day. You can do anything you want so long as your wife or g/f says it's OK.

International Men get their own day now?

Yes, because if you're not International, you're domesticated.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Don’t blame women for men’s loneliness. Blame capitalism

There’s a lot of money to be made off angry, isolated men

www.salon.com

"Blame capitalism" is a reach and a poorly chosen title, it's really social media sites that are primarily responsible. Scott Galloway was on Bill Maher and made this point as well.

Agreed. The other is a lot more attention-grabbing, though.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Separately, the notes re: dating apps are interesting to me. I haven't experienced the apps in 6+ years, although I have heard horror stories of how awful they are now. My previous experience with them was "mildly annoying but manageable", but I kind of suspect those were the "gain market share while losing money" days.

Thanks. What are the main complaints today with dating apps, and how have they changed in the last five or so years? Do you feel?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm sorry but the idea that Sam Altman is trying to get men addicted to erotic chatbots for money doesn't seem credible if you've spent any amount of time listening to Sam Altman.

Can you elaborate? Sam Altman is obviously hugely talented and a highly driven entrepreneur. This feels like a gold mine lucrative opportunity for him. I'm frankly surprised it took him this long.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Galloway was on Maher last week and I thought this was a bit wild:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The idea that people need to drink more booze in general is madness to me. Maybe it is my age talking, but far too many ruined their lives with alcohol, and we should be encouraging people in general to drink less alcohol, not more.

It is wild.

That's how bad Galloway thinks it is for young people, men especially. He refers to alcohol as a lubricant, and he's right. If Galloway thought every man could confidently talk to a woman, or dance in public, he wouldn't suggest it. If he thought every man was out there networking while sober, he wouldn't suggest it.

He sums it up nicely, 'the danger to your 25 year old liver is dwarfed by the risk of social isolation.'

I can see this. I know what Galloway is saying is wild, but it's like anything where one has to look at both sides. If I understand him, he's saying the dangers of alcohol are not as big as the dangers of social isolation.

I think that's a point one might argue. I have some close friends who are alcoholics, and I've seen the devastation up close, so I don't say that lightly. But if something helps with the social part, I think it's worth looking into.

In some ways, it's a little like the Ozempic discussion we had. Yes, there might be long-term health issues down the road with Ozempic. We don't yet fully understand. But the downside of all the hugely negative things associated with obesity are likely a bigger worry.

Same kind of discussion in some ways.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Guess we really can't handle much more in here that music drafts, huh?

Careful, I got read the riot act for suggesting this a while back.

Do you mean this? https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/so-hows-it-going.817976/post-25463213

Your opinion was there were too many music threads. Others disagreed and said they thought we had the right amount.

I didn't see any riot act. Did you mean something else?

 

[Juxtatarot]

I'm sorry but the idea that Sam Altman is trying to get men addicted to erotic chatbots for money doesn't seem credible if you've spent any amount of time listening to Sam Altman.

Can you elaborate? Sam Altman is obviously hugely talented and a highly driven entrepreneur. This feels like a gold mine lucrative opportunity for him. I'm frankly surprised it took him this long.

I think he sees AI as a revolutionary technology which will change much about our world. Trying to hook guys on sexbots seems like small potatoes. His vision in grander than that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm sorry but the idea that Sam Altman is trying to get men addicted to erotic chatbots for money doesn't seem credible if you've spent any amount of time listening to Sam Altman.

Can you elaborate? Sam Altman is obviously hugely talented and a highly driven entrepreneur. This feels like a gold mine lucrative opportunity for him. I'm frankly surprised it took him this long.

I think he sees AI as a revolutionary technology which will change much about our world. Trying to hook guys on sexbots seems like small potatoes. His vision in grander than that.

Sure. I think the adult content is just part of the bigger vision.

 

[massraider]

The Sex Recession: The Share of Americans Having Regular Sex Keeps Dropping

Americans are having a record low amount of sex, especially young adults.

ifstudies.org

Twenge’s findings largely hold true today. Between 2014 and 2024, the share of young adults, ages 18–29, who reported living with a partner, both married and unmarried, fell 10 percentage points, from 42% to 32%, according to the GSS. Because partnered adults have the most consistent sex, and more young men and women are flying solo, the share of young adults who are having regular sex keeps falling.

When it comes to sexlessness (“no sex in the last year”) among young adults, the biggest change comes post-2010. Prior and up to 2010, the share of young adults, ages 18-29, who reported not having sex held steady around 15 percent. But from 2010 to 2024, the share doubled, from 12% to 24% in the GSS.

 

[bigbottom]

The Sex Recession: The Share of Americans Having Regular Sex Keeps Dropping

Americans are having a record low amount of sex, especially young adults.

ifstudies.org

Twenge’s findings largely hold true today. Between 2014 and 2024, the share of young adults, ages 18–29, who reported living with a partner, both married and unmarried, fell 10 percentage points, from 42% to 32%, according to the GSS. Because partnered adults have the most consistent sex, and more young men and women are flying solo, the share of young adults who are having regular sex keeps falling.

When it comes to sexlessness (“no sex in the last year”) among young adults, the biggest change comes post-2010. Prior and up to 2010, the share of young adults, ages 18-29, who reported not having sex held steady around 15 percent. But from 2010 to 2024, the share doubled, from 12% to 24% in the GSS.

Very interesting. From the linked study:

Abstract​

Objective​

The main goal of this study is to identify the causes of the decline in sexual activity among young adults in the United States.

Background​

The frequency with which young adults have sexual intercourse has declined over recent decades, but the sources of this trend are not well understood. Trends in economic insecurity, relationship formation, parental coresidence, use of electronic media, psychological distress, and alcohol consumption have all been suggested as possible causes.

Method​

Logistic regression models of recent sexual activity were estimated using longitudinal data from the Transition to Adulthood Supplement of the Panel Study of Income Dynamics for respondents ages 18 to 23 (n = 3,213) spanning 2007 to 2017. Mediation analysis was performed to identify the explanatory factors that account for the decline in sexual activity. Fixed-effect logistic regression models were estimated for a subset of respondents (n = 655) to help identify causal effects.

Results​

Of the possible explanations considered, the decline in the formation of romantic relationships and decreasing alcohol consumption are the most important, but declining earnings and increasing use of computer games also play important roles. Overall, the measured explanations explain three-quarters of the decline in young adult sexual activity. Within individuals, forming a romantic relationship, going to college, and alcohol consumption likely have causal effects on the probability of engaging in sexual intercourse.

Conclusion​

Trends in the formation of romantic relationships, alcohol consumption, computer gaming, and earnings explain a substantial portion of the decline in young adult sexual activity.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thanks folks.

On the polling stuff, I always think that's interesting. How confident do you feel in the accuracy of the information there?

I have no reason to believe it's not super accurate. Was just wondering.

 

[RCon]

Separately, the notes re: dating apps are interesting to me. I haven't experienced the apps in 6+ years, although I have heard horror stories of how awful they are now. My previous experience with them was "mildly annoying but manageable", but I kind of suspect those were the "gain market share while losing money" days.

Thanks. What are the main complaints today with dating apps, and how have they changed in the last five or so years? Do you feel?

Grain of salt, as my current info is third-hand. When I last used them, 2018-2019, you would see a bot (for lack of a better term) on occasion and they were usually pretty easy to pick out. I'm told that now the apps are proliferated with bots, often trying to direct men to OnlyFans. On the female complaint side, I'm told there are a lot more, let's just call them Andrew Tate followers, many of which may also be bots.

I'm also given to understand that in that timeframe, the financial backers were looking to gain market share even at the expense of losing money, and thus the apps were incentivized to show real people and (again for lack of a better word) popular profiles (i.e. profiles that had significant engagement, including "likes" and messages). Nowadays, as the finances are different, non-paying users are often shown less popular profiles until they become paying customers.

I guess the short version is... 6-10 years ago, you may or may not have had good luck on the apps, but at least you could be confident that 80%+ of the profile you were seeing were real people looking to meet someone (whether casually or seriously, and sure, you had to figure that out), whereas now I'm under the impression that 50%+ of profiles aren't real people, so it's much tougher to wade through.

 

[djmich]

However, two things have changed significantly, IMO.
1. A larger share of young women have realized they don't need a man to be happy and successful (in part due to a changing world where that's less true than it once was).

Most of the data I’ve seen indicates women are not happy at all, less happy than in the recent past. Would would make a lot of sense, hard to believe women don’t need male companionship any more than men need women.