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O.J. Simpson and Bill Cosby on Twitter - should they be allowed or banned? (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford said:
Yup.
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Jeffery Toobin’s book (The Run of His Life, still the best thing I’ve read on the subject) agrees with your assessment of Ito, but argues that his decisions, poor as many of them were, had no real affect on the verdict. It was decided largely by the makeup of the jury, decades of ill-treatment of African Americans by the LAPD, and the Mark Fuhrman tapes. 

 
timschochet said:
Jeffery Toobin’s book (The Run of His Life, still the best thing I’ve read on the subject) agrees with your assessment of Ito, but argues that his decisions, poor as many of them were, had no real affect on the verdict. It was decided largely by the makeup of the jury, decades of ill-treatment of African Americans by the LAPD, and the Mark Fuhrman tapes. 
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What was the actual closing argument sound bite that everyone remembers?  Even to this day?

 
Henry Ford said:
What was the actual closing argument sound bite that everyone remembers?  Even to this day?
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What people latch on to as justification for emotional decisions they want to color as rational when they publish them to the world, and what really animated the decisions are likely not the same in all instances.  (Folks lie about their reasons)

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
What people latch on to as justification for emotional decisions they want to color as rational when they publish them to the world, and what really animated the decisions are likely not the same in all instances.  (Folks lie about their reasons)
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Of course.  But to say that the glove made no difference is even more of a reach than saying the glove was the "reason" for the verdict.

It had an effect.  

 
timschochet said:
Jeffery Toobin’s book (The Run of His Life, still the best thing I’ve read on the subject) agrees with your assessment of Ito, but argues that his decisions, poor as many of them were, had no real affect on the verdict. It was decided largely by the makeup of the jury, decades of ill-treatment of African Americans by the LAPD, and the Mark Fuhrman tapes. 
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The Mark Fuhrman tapes were the killer (so to speak) of the prosecution's case. Few people have read them, but they were published in the L.A. Times when they were released. This was pre-internet, so doubt there is a link out there.

The tapes were a result of Fuhrman being hired as an advisor for a forthcoming mystery book and was speaking as a supposedly fictional character who was a police officer. Fuhrman, speaking in the first person, admitted to routinely planting evidence or giving false testimony as a LEO in order to obtain a conviction of someone he felt was guilty. In fact, it was worse than that, he felt that falsifying evidence was fine even if someone hadn't done the crime because they had "thought about it" or would do the crime in the future.

The tapes also resulted in his perjury charge and conviction, since he had previously testified that he had never used the N word (which he uttered  multiple times in the tapes).

 
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Henry Ford said:
Of course.  But to say that the glove made no difference is even more of a reach than saying the glove was the "reason" for the verdict.

It had an effect.  
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I agree it had an effect.  I agree it was stupid, and predictably so, to take a leather item, soaked in a wet solution containing salts, left to shrink and dry, an item meant to fit skin tight, to put that item in the hands of the accused, allow the accused to expand his hand size by donning latex gloves, gloves that are not conducive to sliding other material over as they are rather adhesive and grippy, and then not surprisingly have the gloves not fit like a glove, but rather like a shrunken glove, shrunken from the salts in the victims bloodstream.

 
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squistion said:
The Mark Fuhrman tapes were the killer (so to speak) of the prosecution's case. Few people have read them, but they were published in the L.A. Times when they were released. This was pre-internet, so doubt there is a link out there.

The tapes were a result of Fuhrman being hired as an advisor to for a forthcoming mystery book and was speaking as a supposedly fictional character who was a police officer. Fuhrman, speaking in the first person, admitted to routinely planting evidence or giving false testimony as a LEO in order to obtain a conviction of someone he felt was guilty. In fact, it was worse than that, he felt that falsifying evidence was fine even if someone hadn't done the crime because they had "thought about it" or would do the crime in the future.

The tapes also resulted in his perjury charge and conviction, since he had previously testified that he had never used the N word (which he uttered  multiple times in the tapes).
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Right.  But the Fuhrman tapes wouldn’t have had nearly as much impact with a white jury IMO. It’s only because those tapes were combined with the personal experiences of the jurors- they distrusted the LAPD in the first place. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
Of course.  But to say that the glove made no difference is even more of a reach than saying the glove was the "reason" for the verdict.

It had an effect.  
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I think it served to provide a reason in the juror’s minds to acquit. But they were looking for that reason, and if this one hadn’t been there, I believe they would have found another. 

 
timschochet said:
Right.  But the Fuhrman tapes wouldn’t have had any impact with a white jury IMO. It’s only because those tapes were combined with the personal experiences of the jurors- they distrusted the LAPD in the first place. 
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A bridge too far in my estimation.  They may have, fairly or unfairly, been more impactful to a black audience from LA, but to say they would not have had any impact, a cop caught lying having no impact, well you may want to evaluate that again.  Or you may not, your choice.

 
timschochet said:
Right.  But the Fuhrman tapes wouldn’t have had any impact with a white jury IMO. It’s only because those tapes were combined with the personal experiences of the jurors- they distrusted the LAPD in the first place. 
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It would have had some impact as his repeated use of the N word after saying he never used it, pretty much shot his credibility.

However, it was a big deal with that jury, for, at the time, among the African American community in L.A. it was considered a given that L.A.P.D. officers routinely falsified evidence and falsified police reports just to gain a conviction. Fuhrman reinforced what was considered the conventional wisdom among AAs.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
A bridge too far in my estimation.  They may have, fairly or unfairly, been more impactful to a black audience from LA, but to say they would not have had any impact, a cop caught lying having no impact, well you may want to evaluate that again.  Or you may not, your choice.
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No you’re probably right. Let’s just say it was far more impactful given the makeup of the jury. 

 
When you look at that trial, you have to look at it within the context of the time period: specifically the Rodney King beatings, jury, and riots. 

 
timschochet said:
When you look at that trial, you have to look at it within the context of the time period: specifically the Rodney King beatings, jury, and riots. 
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That was three years earlier than the OJ trial and acquittal - I think the beating of King played into the preconception of how blacks were treated by police officers, but I doubt the OJ jury made their decision as some sort of payback for what the jury had done in the King case.

 
timschochet said:
No you’re probably right. Let’s just say it was far more impactful given the makeup of the jury. 
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What I think I know is that it did resonate with that jury, at least they report that it did, though self reports are dangerous.  How a white jury would have reacted to a key Detective caught out in multiple lies, well I would hope they would be thoroughly unimpressed and would be dismissive of his testimony, but who knows.  I have seen what I consider to be evidence the last few years that people, white people, can resolve apparently contradictory information in one direction, over and over again in spite of what I might deem to be logic and reason.

I write cautiously, rarely in absolutes.  I do so hoping it helps my thinking achieve a level of objectivity.  I am probably fooling no one but myself.  You, you are one to embrace absolutes far more readily and to write in absolutes.  We are markedly different personalities.

 
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squistion said:
Meh. One juror in her 70s speaking over 20 years later.
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:lmao: https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-oj-simpson-tv-show-police-trust-20160209-story.html

The miniseries opened with a sequence that telegraphed that context. The first shot was a clip from the videotaped beating of Rodney King on March 3, 1991. It then segued into a series of depictions of the riots that happened the following year, after the officers responsible for King's beating were acquitted of all but one count in state court (the jury hung on that charge).

In this Aug. 29, 1995, file photo, O.J. Simpson, second from left, is surrounded by his attorneys, clockwise from left, Ken Spaulding, back towards camera, Gerald Uelmen, Robert Shapiro and Johnnie Cochran Jr., as they discuss their plans for arguing the admissibility of the tapes of retired Los Angeles police detective Mark Fuhrman in Los Angeles.

Those images were painful to watch — I covered the federal trial of those officers, as well as the riots and Simpson's murder trial — but the series smartly grasped the intersection of those tortuous and sometimes terrifying events.

For many, the videotape of the King beating was overdue vindication, proof at last that they had been telling the truth when they accused LAPD officers of brutality, especially in their treatment of black male suspects. Indeed, the most shocking aspect of the tape may not even have been the torrent of blows inflicted on King but rather the fact that none of the 19 LAPD officers who witnessed the incident bothered to report anything wrong until after the video surfaced.
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Ramblin Wreck said:
It's directly from the source.  I know you've built your reputation on arguing every single thing you post 100 times over but geez dude, how much closer can you get to the source?  An actual jury member says the SImpson verdict was payback for Rodney King.   
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It is one juror who waited over 20 years to speak out. Where was she before this? Can you provide contemporaneous links of any member of that jury after and or about the time the verdict was reached?

 
squistion said:
It is one juror who waited over 20 years to speak out. Where was she before this? Can you provide contemporaneous links of any member of that jury after and or about the time the verdict was reached?
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:lmao:

Sure as soon you have a contemporaneous link that quotes Christine Blasey Ford saying Brett Kavanaugh raped her then.  Or admit she's not credible.  Either works for me.

 
John Blutarsky said:
You have been proven wrong. Deal with it.
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The hills this guy is willing to die on is hilarious.   He got a direct link with a direct quote and now he's questioning the old minority lady.  Boy I bet if one of us did that we would hate old folks, minorities, and women.   

Wait until the next time a guy can't pee at Starbucks and he posts 1,528 times that it's racism and he has no direct quote.  The mental gymnastics will certainly be doing backflips then.

 
It was payback. Not just for Rodney King but for a lifetime of incidents. For Daryl Gates (the former chief of police) and his infamous “chokehold” comments. For the Korean woman who shot the black girl in the back of the head and got away with it. There was a LOT of history there. 

 
timschochet said:
It was payback. Not just for Rodney King but for a lifetime of incidents. For Daryl Gates (the former chief of police) and his infamous “chokehold” comments. For the Korean woman who shot the black girl in the back of the head and got away with it. There was a LOT of history there. 
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I appeared on a panel which included him as a member.  The discussion topic was policing in immigrant communities.  He was included because of his Special Order 40.  He seemed more anxious to talk about some Security firm he was then hooked up with.  After the panel some went to dinner together.  I declined the invitation.

I was also on a panel, a few years later, with Willie Williams.  We did share a table at lunch, assigned seating.  I could have declined, as I did with Chief Gates, but I did not.  Chief Williams also happened to be a personal friend with the Chief for whom I was serving at the time.

 
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Oh Noes! Bill Cosby is Tweeting too and getting just as cool a reception. From yesterday:

Bill Cosby‏ @BillCosby                 

Hey, Hey, Hey...It’s America’s Dad...I know it’s late, but to all of the Dads... It’s an honor to be called a Father, so let’s make today a renewed oath to fulfilling our purpose — strengthening our families and… https://www.instagram.com/p/ByywSzknUEU/?igshid=1gu28jyyefaw7 …

https://twitter.com/BillCosby/status/1140436908218179584

 
squistion said:
Oh Noes! Bill Cosby is Tweeting too and getting just as cool a reception. From yesterday:

Bill Cosby‏ @BillCosby                 

Hey, Hey, Hey...It’s America’s Dad...I know it’s late, but to all of the Dads... It’s an honor to be called a Father, so let’s make today a renewed oath to fulfilling our purpose — strengthening our families and… https://www.instagram.com/p/ByywSzknUEU/?igshid=1gu28jyyefaw7 …

https://twitter.com/BillCosby/status/1140436908218179584
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Start a thread for your Twitter stuff. No one cares.

 
Henry Ford said:
Ito's the one who wanted the glove charade.  It was ridiculous and should never have been allowed.
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I don't disagree with this. 

The reasonable doubt I'm referring to is the incredibly questionable blood evidence. Per Dr. Lee, somebody had to have manipulated the scene. Maybe this represents too much my personal philosophy on criminal justice (that it's better for ten guilty men to go free so as one innocent man isn't wrongfully imprisoned than the inverse) but to me just knowing that cannot leave one firmly convinced. Couple that with the other issues (glove, Furman tape, etc.) and I stand by my legal analysis that the jury's verdict was the correct one (just as the jury's verdict in the civil trial was correct). 

 
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Henry Ford said:
Of course.  But to say that the glove made no difference is even more of a reach than saying the glove was the "reason" for the verdict.

It had an effect.  
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There were at least a few jurors who have said they were voting not guilty no matter what, right?

Doesn't seem like anything mattered or had an effect

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
There were at least a few jurors who have said they were voting not guilty no matter what, right?

Doesn't seem like anything mattered or had an effect
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A hung jury would have been retried, I think.  Hopefully better. Even if a few would have said not guilty no matter what. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
A hung jury would have been retried, I think.  Hopefully better. Even if a few would have said not guilty no matter what. 
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Unquestionably. A high profile case in L.A. involving a celebrity will always be retried when most of the jury were favoring conviction (see Phil Spector)

 
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