Obedience and the Rise of Authoritarianism (1 Viewer)

[Captain Cranks]

And I'll just throw this out there as food for thought.  You assert that you don't make "personal attacks".  What you do is throw all the people you perceive as "against" you into a box and make some pretty disgusting assertions about the box.  For anyone paying attention, that's a distinction without a difference.  You may think it some sort of fight of "righteousness" but it's not.  All you've done is the exact same thing you claim to loathe.

Same goes for GG. 

 

[GoBirds]

I was gone off the forums for many years. If not for the pandemic, odds are I wouldn't have returned.

I never posted in the PSF before that time. Never. I do remember though when politics would literally invade the FFA and sabotage/ruin nearly every last thread in it. When I came back into the PSF, what I noticed was that it was @jon_mx , @BladeRunner , @Max Power, @NorvilleBarnes and a few others getting constantly swarmed and battered.

A few times I've replied to jon, hoping to lead him away from some discussions, because I could literally see the swarm trying to bait him into something to get him banned, and I like jon, he's a good poster, so I don't want him to be banned.

Every time I've been attacked or there's been some pathway to try to silence me, I've raised my level of participation and depth behind it. I encourage all Conservatives and Republicans here to do the same. If they feel they are being personally attacked, sealioned, gaslit or whatever else, count them. Count each instance and that's how many top level threads they should create. A new one every 24 hours. One that's invested in and invites practical substantive political discussion. And it will probably lean Conservative in nature. If all Conservatives do that, the attacks on Conservatives would all end.

The point of attacking Conservatives is just trying to silence us here. And out there. And everywhere. So don't be silent.

If 20 Conservatives here started a new top level thread topic  every 24 hours for two weeks. I'm talking introspective practical current political discussion generated. That's 280 thread topics in half a month. All likely Conservative in nature. Do you think that would stop the attacks? I would. And why would that be a bad thing? Because that's the first accusation the radical left here will make. If people are willing to invest into turning this place into a Grantland style hub for political discussion, and raising the level of discourse, why is that a bad thing at all?

I don't tell people to do things I won't do myself. Every day and a half or so, I start a new top level thread topic. And I don't post cheap. Some people here don't like my politics or formatting or viewpoint, but I'm not lazy. And I'm just one person and I fully believe I've made an impact here in the last year and a half. But I suppose it makes some of the low effort radicals here angry that a retired geriatric is setting the pace.

So my suggestion to jon is if people want to argue with you for sport to hunt you down, then fill the place with more democracy. Fill it with more free speech. Fill it with more Conservatism.

High value posting always wins. Raising the level of discussion always wins. Creating more high information based voters always wins. Defending your boundaries always wins. This is how Conservatism wins. This would be the truth even if I was the only Conservative here.

"Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth." -  Gandhi

 

Another great post GG, nailed it. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

You really don't get it, nor do you want to admit it.  This isn't about me, this is about conservatives in general and how liberals assault them and do by wahtever means possible to suppress their speech.  There is barely a college campus that a mainstream conservative thinker can go to without a firestorm of protests, many which add verbal and physical assaults, disruptions, and even death threats.  

There is no presentation I can do which the left would be happy with.  Look at someone like Jordan Peterson, an extremely intelligent highly educated soft-spoken individual who draws anger from protestors wherever he goes.  He is viciously attacked by mainstream liberal talking heads and dismissed as a far-rightwing ideologue.  There is so much vial hatred towards him and his family on social media. 

This is even more true when you get to someone like Ben Shapiro who does engage with more divisive rhetoric.   If you talk to any conservative speaker you would find these same stories.  Liberal speakers can go virtually anywhere without anywhere near the level of harassment.  

Back in the day, the ACLU used to be the standard for protection of free speech.  But today the left puts far more weight into defending against what they deem as hate speech (anything that is counter to their worldview) and misinformation (stuff that goes against their political narrative).   You don't hear free speech or equal protection or equal opportunity out of the mouths of leftist leaders.   The mainstream liberals today hate free speech and uses every means available to suppress speech they disagree with.

Of course you will pooh-pooh this and stay in denial of this obvious truth that any conservative would confirm and has in fact experienced, many on a daily basis.  But believe me, your comrades are hitting that abuse button all the time, and it is not just on me.

Of course it is, but just like the rest of the SM landscape I guess it's easier to beat the drum of conservatives being targeted, libs needing echo chambers, whatever than to look in the mirror and realize how you are coming across.    If your position was true, then conservative voices like IK, ekbeats,  and others would be similar in their being "ganged up on", reported, called out.   That's not the case, and it's telling the posters who are smashing the likes and agreeing with you here are also ones that have a similar posting style.   Same goes for the left - there are people who have a more caustic and aggressive posting style that rub people the wrong way and they are getting banned more.   We all probably can guess who these people are - in general ones that make sweeping comments about the other side, have posted abrasive things towards posters, etc..    It's the same all over the internet and SM - damn near every time people are whining about their voices being shut out or that they are being targeted for their opinions it's usually just because of their abrasive posting style, not because of their political lean.  

At some point the people who are complaining about being ganged up on, banned, and not being able to have adult conversations around here have to look in the mirror and think about why that is when so many others seem to be perfectly capable of doing so and getting something out of these boards and discussions.  

 

[dozer]

Many fervent Trump supporters, Altemeyer and Dean write, “are submissive, fearful, and longing for a mighty leader who will protect them from life’s threats. They divide the world into friend and foe, with the latter greatly outnumbering the former.”

A perfect description of Trump supporters. Imaginary victims in a world of plentiful opportunities.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Have been hearing more about accelerationism and thinking about the threads and posts about “civil war”. Not a fan of these concepts. The same way I’m not a fan of authoritarianism.

I want the country to avoid these trends. That’s mainly why I post in here. Prior to 2015, I didn’t really “do” politics. Big fan of democracy, the Constitution, and history. Not politics per se. But it seems like the threats to the democracy are increasing, so I’ll do my part here to rail against these ideas.

I hope people will look around, see the warning signs, and fight for the democracy. Happy Independence Day.

 

[dozer]

Republican candidates accuse Democratic candidates of being diabolical "socialists" and claim that Democratic policies such as Medicare for All, child care, or taxing the rich are evil "socialism."

Republicans allege that electing Democrats will turn America into a failed socialist state like Venezuela.

Shockingly, this nonsense actually works.

 

[jon_mx]

Of course it is, but just like the rest of the SM landscape I guess it's easier to beat the drum of conservatives being targeted, libs needing echo chambers, whatever than to look in the mirror and realize how you are coming across.    If your position was true, then conservative voices like IK, ekbeats,  and others would be similar in their being "ganged up on", reported, called out.   That's not the case, and it's telling the posters who are smashing the likes and agreeing with you here are also ones that have a similar posting style.   Same goes for the left - there are people who have a more caustic and aggressive posting style that rub people the wrong way and they are getting banned more.   We all probably can guess who these people are - in general ones that make sweeping comments about the other side, have posted abrasive things towards posters, etc..    It's the same all over the internet and SM - damn near every time people are whining about their voices being shut out or that they are being targeted for their opinions it's usually just because of their abrasive posting style, not because of their political lean.  

At some point the people who are complaining about being ganged up on, banned, and not being able to have adult conversations around here have to look in the mirror and think about why that is when so many others seem to be perfectly capable of doing so and getting something out of these boards and discussions.  

I think you are full of crap and have no clue what the reality is.  Conservatives have to walk on eggshells.  I think even the couple of exceptions you called out would acknowledge that conservative speech has a level of scrutiny significantly different that liberals and by a couple orders of magnitude. 

But some like IK have learned to survive in an academia environment and are well practiced in the art of avoiding rhetoric which might offend liberals.  It is necessary job skill for a conservative in such institutions.   But he is an exception to the rule.  Really the token which makes you feel better about the gross level of censorship which you either support or are oblivious to.   

@ekbeats would probably laugh at your hypothesis that conservative aren't targeted and ganged up on in this forum.  This forum has chased away hundreds of conservstive posters over the years.  Some far more contentious than me, but most were fairly moderate and libertarian thinkers who just expressed their opinion.  There are not so many others as you claim who are tolerated here. If so name them and see how much they agree with your assessment.  Here is a hint.....none of them will.   There are even a handful of honest liberals who would acknowledge such and have so to me. 

 

[Prinefan]

I think you are full of crap and have no clue what the reality is.  Conservatives have to walk on eggshells.  I think even the couple of exceptions you called out would acknowledge that conservative speech has a level of scrutiny significantly different that liberals and by a couple orders of magnitude. 

But some like IK have learned to survive in an academia environment and are well practiced in the art of avoiding rhetoric which might offend liberals.  It is necessary job skill for a conservative in such institutions.   But he is an exception to the rule.  Really the token which makes you feel better about the gross level of censorship which you either support or are oblivious to.   

@ekbeats would probably laugh at your hypothesis that conservative aren't targeted and ganged up on in this forum.  This forum has chased away hundreds of conservstive posters over the years.  Some far more contentious than me, but most were fairly moderate and libertarian thinkers who just expressed their opinion.  There are not so many others as you claim who are tolerated here. If so name them and see how much they agree with your assessment.  Here is a hint.....none of them will.   There are even a handful of honest liberals who would acknowledge such and have so to me. 

At no point did he attack you personally Jon.  Yet you start your response with "I think you're full of crap".  Any response you get from this post would have been less likely to be antagonistic if you hadn't started with this.

 

[jon_mx]

Have been hearing more about accelerationism and thinking about the threads and posts about “civil war”. Not a fan of these concepts. The same way I’m not a fan of authoritarianism.

I want the country to avoid these trends. That’s mainly why I post in here. Prior to 2015, I didn’t really “do” politics. Big fan of democracy, the Constitution, and history. Not politics per se. But it seems like the threats to the democracy are increasing, so I’ll do my part here to rail against these ideas.

I hope people will look around, see the warning signs, and fight for the democracy. Happy Independence Day.

Happy Independence Day to you.  What we usually fought wars for was freedom.  Democracy is only a good thing if it is limited by constitutional protections of individual rights and property.   The failure of say the Iraq war was we fought it to spread Democracy to the region.  But democracy in regions which do not heavily value individual freedom are destined to return to tyranny. 

 

[Captain Cranks]

Republican candidates accuse Democratic candidates of being diabolical "socialists" and claim that Democratic policies such as Medicare for All, child care, or taxing the rich are evil "socialism."

Republicans allege that electing Democrats will turn America into a failed socialist state like Venezuela.

Shockingly, this nonsense actually works.

As KP just stated, we need to look in the mirror and realize we're being played. We're all Americans with similar needs and wants but after the media and our politicians amplify and exaggerate our differences (for their own benefit), we're at each other's throats. 

It's silly to think that consuming a worldview that blames and demonizes the other side won't have a drastic impact on how we perceive the world. Yet we refuse to look in the mirror and consider our own culpability; it's much easier to blame someone else.

I'm certainly not without sin in this regard. It's difficult to not get sucked into the fray, but we must do better as individuals. This is not something we can depend on our government to fix. The politicians and media have a vested interest in pushing us further and further apart.

 

[sho nuff]

People aren’t being persecuted here for being conservative.  When your posts call people full of crap, fascist bigots, leftist thugs, radical leftists, low value, low information….that is what gets people suspended.

IK as an example…”survives” because ehe posts intelligent well supported things.  Without the snark and condescending and inflammatory language towards other posters.   He has caused me to give several of my positions a second look and either change my mind or take a look and find reason to support what i do
 

When people get suspended…its not to diminish conservative thought…but to diminish the inflammatory rhetoric that seems prevalent with a handful of posters.

 

[jon_mx]

At no point did he attack you personally Jon.  Yet you start your response with "I think you're full of crap".  Any response you get from this post would have been less likely to be antagonistic if you hadn't started with this.

Being characterized as "not being able to have adult conversations" most people would take offense to and consider it personal.  His whole post was targeted at blaming me.  It is funny how you think it is a personal attack telling someone they are full of crap who just accused one of not being able to hold an adult conversation.  It would be fun to know how many hit the report button on me, but not on Karma.  

 

[Prinefan]

Being characterized as "not being able to have adult conversations" most people would take offense to and consider it personal.  His whole post was targeted at blaming me.  It is funny how you think it is a personal attack telling someone they are full of crap who just accused one of not being able to hold an adult conversation is.  I would hate to guess how many hit the report button on me, but not on Karma.  

Okay Evelyn.  

 

[The Commish]

You really don't get it, nor do you want to admit it.  This isn't about me, this is about conservatives in general and how liberals assault them and do by wahtever means possible to suppress their speech.  There is barely a college campus that a mainstream conservative thinker can go to without a firestorm of protests, many which add verbal and physical assaults, disruptions, and even death threats.  

There is no presentation I can do which the left would be happy with.  Look at someone like Jordan Peterson, an extremely intelligent highly educated soft-spoken individual who draws anger from protestors wherever he goes.  He is viciously attacked by mainstream liberal talking heads and dismissed as a far-rightwing ideologue.  There is so much vial hatred towards him and his family on social media. 

This is even more true when you get to someone like Ben Shapiro who does engage with more divisive rhetoric.   If you talk to any conservative speaker you would find these same stories.  Liberal speakers can go virtually anywhere without anywhere near the level of harassment.  

Back in the day, the ACLU used to be the standard for protection of free speech.  But today the left puts far more weight into defending against what they deem as hate speech (anything that is counter to their worldview) and misinformation (stuff that goes against their political narrative).   You don't hear free speech or equal protection or equal opportunity out of the mouths of leftist leaders.   The mainstream liberals today hate free speech and uses every means available to suppress speech they disagree with.

Of course you will pooh-pooh this and stay in denial of this obvious truth that any conservative would confirm and has in fact experienced, many on a daily basis.  But believe me, your comrades are hitting that abuse button all the time, and it is not just on me.

I didn't really need another example of what I was talking about, but this is a pretty good one....starting with the specific edit and not quoting or discussing the entirety of what I said. 

There is THIS issue as you post above where you project all the "injustices" you see on the people of this board as if those you perceive as "against" you are a monolith.  I have yet to see you make any sort of cogent argument in this space without generalizing and forcing people into a box, then attacking the box.  

You start every single one of these "debates" as if YOU are coming from the position of truth and then conflate disagreement with silencing when you get pushback.  It happens EVERY single time.  There in NO question there is a strong fight for narrative among the "sides" these days.  In my view, those are lost causes.  The extremes are focusing on the extremes and I have no control over that.  I couldn't care less about that actually.  Where this goes off the rails is when one decides the extremes are something other than the extremes and generalize lumping a bunch of people together that don't belong together.  In my view, I'd likely be on board with you on a great many of these things you label "concerning" to you if you didn't tell on yourself time and time again by focusing on one side alone.  I'll give you an example.  My position on this attack on democracy stuff is simple.  Any of the people on 1/6, people threatening Supreme Court Justices, people threatening witnesses that have already testified, people who label the SC illegitimate etc etc.....they're all in the same boat as threats on democracy in my view.  Two sides of the same coin.  I've spent time in a good number of the threads addressing these things admonishing them.  To me....if one is really concerned about this sort of thing, that's the action I'm looking for.  So when I see a person picking and choosing which of those to defend or admonish I question if they are really concerned about the problem or just their "side".

ETA:  I'll also say that you don't get to say "this isn't about me" when the metric you presented and that was being discussed was indeed defined by you in terms of how your suspensions go compared to others on this board.  That was the SPECIFIC comment I was talking about and bringing up what happens in other corners of the world (regardless of how valid) has exactly ZERO bearing on that point.  When you bring that stuff up that has nothing to do with the conversation, it's going to be seen as shifting the goal posts   

 

[The Commish]

Same goes for GG. 

I'll take your word for it, but that wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[jon_mx]

People aren’t being persecuted here for being conservative.  When your posts call people full of crap, fascist bigots, leftist thugs, radical leftists, low value, low information….that is what gets people suspended.

IK as an example…”survives” because ehe posts intelligent well supported things.  Without the snark and condescending and inflammatory language towards other posters.   He has caused me to give several of my positions a second look and either change my mind or take a look and find reason to support what i do
 

When people get suspended…its not to diminish conservative thought…but to diminish the inflammatory rhetoric that seems prevalent with a handful of posters.

I make tons of intelligent points supported by facts, and recieve snark and belittlement in return about 100 percent of the time.   I could easily point to a dozen of mocking posts directed towards me in the last day.   I did not report any. But I do find those who engage in such tactics be part of this larger effort to silence everything conservative.  I think we have drifted far away from a society which honors and values free speech in the last decades and are now only concerned with not offending, and this movement on free speech is coming mostly from modern leftist ideology.   Sorry, but I still value free speech heavily.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

It’s probably more productive to acknowledge and then pass over the style of posting and the poster themselves, and address the topic and make one’s own arguments. But what do I know. 
 

Never reported a post, never ignored a poster. Been suspended once. The discussions here have me examining my positions and help me understand different perspectives. That’s valuable to me.

Anyway, to paraphrase a wise saying from here: “Let’s go with no authoritarianism for now”. 

 

[Captain Cranks]

I make tons of intelligent points supported by facts, and recieve snark and belittlement in return about 100 percent of the time.   I could easily point to a dozen of mocking posts directed towards me in the last day.   I did not report any. But I do find those who engage in such tactics be part of this larger effort to silence everything conservative.  I think we have drifted far away from a society which honors and values free speech in the last decades and are now only concerned with not offending, and this movement on free speech is coming mostly from modern leftist ideology.   Sorry, but I still value free speech heavily.

Given the current political climate, what can YOU do better to improve things? I'm not talking about what you can do for your political agenda, but what can you do to improve the division in this country?

 

[jon_mx]

I didn't really need another example of what I was talking about, but this is a pretty good one....starting with the specific edit and not quoting or discussing the entirety of what I said. 

You said a lot and I cut off the part of your quote I wanted to focus on first.  I did not edit or alter the meaning of your post.  Just like a truncated this to focus on this deflection you made.   A pretty poor start to a post.

 

[Desert_Power]

Same goes for GG. 

He does both and it is somehow allowed. 

 

[dkp993]

Same goes for GG. 

He does both and it is somehow allowed.

And when called out and proven wrong completely ignores it.  It’s the definition of hypocrisy imo. 

 

[dozer]

Democracy is a left wing principle.

Authoritarianism (monarchy, dictatorships) is a right wing principle.

 

[jon_mx]

Given the current political climate, what can YOU do better to improve things? I'm not talking about what you can do for your political agenda, but what can you do to improve the division in this country?

IMHO, the groups which are radicalizing the left need to be called out with harsh rhetoric  I see these movements such as 1619 project to the transgenderism agenda creeping into our schools as intentionally creating chaos, division, and this climate to work for radical changes in both our family structure and system of government. 

It sickens me the extrme rapid rise in children being identified as gender disphobic.  Something that was not a problem just 10 years ago, is becoming an enormous problem.  Children are being manipulated by teachers and councilors to question their gender identity and then getting medications and treatments without parental consents.  Doctors are not doing their job of diagnosing and treating these children.  Instead they are confirming whatever the child has been brainwashed into thinking and performing surgeries which destroys their reproductive abilities. 

 I really don't want sit idly by while such evil is occurring.

 

[Captain Cranks]

IMHO, the groups which are radicalized the left need to be called out.  I see these movements such as 1619 project to the transgenderism agenda creeping into our schools as intentionally creating chaos, division, and this climate to work for radical changes in both our family structure and system of government. 

It sickens me the extrme rapid rise in children being identified as gender disphobic.  Something that was not a poem just 10 years ago, is becoming an enormous problem.  Children are being manipulated by teachers and councilors to question their gender identity and then getting medications and treatments without parental consents.  Doctors are not doing their job of diagnosing and treating these children.  Instead they are confirming whatever the child has been brainwashed into thinking and performing surgeries which destroys their reproductive abilities. 

 I really don't want sit idolly by while such evil is occurring.

So there's nothing you can change about yourself. You just need to bring attention to the radical left. In your opinion, that's how we fix the division in this country?

 

[shader]

Correct. Consvervative or Republican posts are reported probably 5x as often as Liberal or Democratic posts. Tim is not reported remotely near as often as jon is. 

And not to say jon's post don't deserve to be reported. But he's in a different ballpark than tim. 

It’s unbelievable that any of you report anyone.  What is wrong with you guys? If you don’t like a poster, put them on ignore.  
 

If you are pro-choice, expect that a significant number of people truly believe you support murder.  Sorry if that offends you but why report someone for saying how they truly feel?  This isn’t a delusional idea - it’s a scientifically sound idea

If you espouse ridiculous conspiracy theories about vaccines, expect that a significant number of people will find that offensive and call you out.  The idea that vaccines are deadly is unscientific.  Why report them for that?

 

[Philo Beddoe]

It’s unbelievable that any of you report anyone.  What is wrong with you guys? If you don’t like a poster, put them on ignore.  
 

If you are pro-choice, expect that a significant number of people truly believe you support murder.  Sorry if that offends you but why report someone for saying how they truly feel?  This isn’t a delusional idea - it’s a scientifically sound idea

If you espouse ridiculous conspiracy theories about vaccines, expect that a significant number of people will find that offensive and call you out.  The idea that vaccines are deadly is unscientific.  Why report them for that?

They do it because Jon is 100% correct

 

[jon_mx]

So there's nothing you can change about yourself. You just need to bring attention to the radical left. In your opinion, that's how we fix the division in this country?

Me changing does not alter the mob mentality which exists here.  I am not sure how to change the tribalism culture which dominates this forum.   Getting rid of me does not fix it. 

 

[shader]

They do it because Jon is 100% correct

Whether he’s correct or incorrect - I can’t imagine reporting someone.  Just a weird behavior.  

 

[jon_mx]

Whether he’s correct or incorrect - I can’t imagine reporting someone.  Just a weird behavior.  

:reported:

 

[Captain Cranks]

Me changing does not alter the mob mentality which exists here.  I am not sure how to change the tribalism culture which dominates this forum.   Getting rid of me does not fix it. 

As others have pointed out, there's much better ways to convey your ideals than the methods you and GG ascribe to. You only serve to push others away from your position. If you really want to bring awareness to something and get people to buy-in, generalizing and demonizing is not the way to go. 

 

[shader]

As others have pointed out, there's much better ways to convey your ideals than the methods you and GG ascribe to. You only serve to push others away from your position. If you really want to bring awareness to something and get people to buy-in, generalizing and demonizing is not the way to go. 

As someone that is neither R or D, I feel pretty secure in pointing out that both sides are guilty of this but neither side thinks they are demonizing, because they both feel they have the moral high ground.

 

[Captain Cranks]

As someone that is neither R or D, I feel pretty secure in pointing out that both sides are guilty of this 

I understand that. There are excellent posters on both sides of the spectrum whose thoughtful, non-divisive approach brings people along for a fruitful discussion. Then there are others on both sides who just wants to spit venom. That's unconstructive. 

 

[Mile High]

If you don’t like a poster, put them on ignore.  

 

[dkp993]

Me changing does not alter the mob mentality which exists here.  I am not sure how to change the tribalism culture which dominates this forum.   Getting rid of me does not fix it. 

Jon the bolded is clear and it’s because you have no desire to figure out how to be effective.  If you did you would be looking to change to be (change political beliefs, I’m speaking to communication style). What you’re doing isn’t working if “changing the tribalism culture” here is truly your end goal as you say, you know this as you complain about it constantly.  If change is what you seek you need to be an agent of it yourself.  But you’re not, it’s wash rinse repeat time and time again.  

The irony of it all is, you know the answer as you outlined it with your description of @IvanKaramazovabove.  He’s a voice here likely because of exact what you described, he learned to navigate the waters he’s in to be effective and heard.  But if I’m being honest Jon, as I said to start, I don’t think being effective and being heard is what you really want

 

[Captain Cranks]

If anyone's ever been to marriage counseling, you'll know that something that kills relationships is the blame game. Marriages will not improve if partners are not willing to accept responsibility for their own flaws and listen to the other person's feelings. I think our societal 'marriage' uses the same principles. Things aren't going to improve if we only want to tell the other side what's wrong with them. 

 

[The Commish]

You said a lot and I cut off the part of your quote I wanted to focus on first.  I did not edit or alter the meaning of your post.  Just like a truncated this to focus on this deflection you made.   A pretty poor start to a post.

Ok...what about the rest?  If it's too much, I can sum it up a bit better.  Quite simply, you don't get to point to a ton of other nonsense happening around the internet and world and rely on it for why you get reported more and given more timeouts than others on this board.  As I said before, the thoughts aren't anything we hear from a dozen other posters on this page and they manage to convey their thoughts without getting banned so it's not really the thoughts/ideas.

 

[Mile High]

Never reported a post, never ignored a poster

Never reported anyone either. Have some on ignore and since some of them are quoted constantly, it usually reaffirms my decision to ignore has right.

 

[KarmaPolice]

At no point did he attack you personally Jon.  Yet you start your response with "I think you're full of crap".  Any response you get from this post would have been less likely to be antagonistic if you hadn't started with this.

 Pretty much proved my point right off the bat.   

 

[The Commish]

As others have pointed out, there's much better ways to convey your ideals than the methods you and GG ascribe to. You only serve to push others away from your position. If you really want to bring awareness to something and get people to buy-in, generalizing and demonizing is not the way to go. 

As someone that is neither R or D, I feel pretty secure in pointing out that both sides are guilty of this but neither side thinks they are demonizing, because they both feel they have the moral high ground.

I agree....only I don't think it has anything to do with "moral high ground".  I don't think it's a coincidence that those pissing and moaning in generalizations are using generalizations to make their points.  When I see this, it's a red flag telling me that individual just wants to piss and moan.  They aren't interested in fixing anything.  They want to perpetuate the "us vs them" narrative.

 

[KarmaPolice]

To be 100% clear - I say that as somebody who has said some nasty things, been warned and suspended, and have been called out on my posting style (passive aggressive, prone to take shots at specific people, etc... )   All have been true, and I own up to that.     THAT is the stuff that gets people in trouble around here and gets people responding in kind.   

We can't pretend that presenting reasonable thoughts and being a generally good poster is going to take heat if you are all that and a conservative.   Just don't act like a ####.  

 

[The Commish]

Me changing does not alter the mob mentality which exists here.  I am not sure how to change the tribalism culture which dominates this forum.   Getting rid of me does not fix it. 

And this is easy...get rid of all of you that insist on framing every single conversation/issue as "us vs them"...doesn't matter conservative or liberal...two sides...same coin.

OR......OR........OR

Be the change you want to see.  Of course this means letting go of preconceived notions and pretending you know more about a person's thoughts/motives/beliefs than the person and actually taking them at their word so that meaningful discussion could actually happen.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Correct. Consvervative or Republican posts are reported probably 5x as often as Liberal or Democratic posts. Tim is not reported remotely near as often as jon is. 

And not to say jon's post don't deserve to be reported. But he's in a different ballpark than tim. 

 There is big distinction - is it because he has a covservative POV or was he being antagonistic and generalizing libs as he sometimes does?   That's the whole point people are tying to make.  

 

[sho nuff]

To be 100% clear - I say that as somebody who has said some nasty things, been warned and suspended, and have been called out on my posting style (passive aggressive, prone to take shots at specific people, etc... )   All have been true, and I own up to that.     THAT is the stuff that gets people in trouble around here and gets people responding in kind.   

We can't pretend that presenting reasonable thoughts and being a generally good poster is going to take heat if you are all that and a conservative.   Just don't act like a ####.  

Similar...I know I rubbed a lot of people the wrong way (and still do).  But have been called out by mods in the past and suspended for things I did or the manner in which I presented things.  I try to change behavior each time.  Things like just posting "that is simply not true" or "blatant falsehood" or using the emojis to laugh or whatever.  Ive tried to focus more on the posting and not posters or making personal comments and so on.  Try not to demonize a person, but focus on the post/opinion.

Im not always perfect it in it...no doubt.  We should all try and "be better" when we see some of the things we said or how it came off...

What I do see with some (and yes, this is about posting style not an individual person)...is posting that does not change after a suspension.  Just coming right back in with the same venom and inflammatory rhetoric that got them suspended in the first place.  Hard to have sympathy for anyone who continues to do what got them suspended in the first place.

 

[jon_mx]

Jon the bolded is clear and it’s because you have no desire to figure out how to be effective.  If you did you would be looking to change to be (change political beliefs, I’m speaking to communication style). What you’re doing isn’t working if “changing the tribalism culture” here is truly your end goal as you say, you know this as you complain about it constantly.  If change is what you seek you need to be an agent of it yourself.  But you’re not, it’s wash rinse repeat time and time again.  

The irony of it all is, you know the answer as you outlined it with your description of @IvanKaramazovabove.  He’s a voice here likely because of exact what you described, he learned to navigate the waters he’s in to be effective and heard.  But if I’m being honest Jon, as I said to start, I don’t think being effective and being heard is what you really want

I lived in an abusive relationship where I had to walk on eggshells.  Surrendering to bullies is not the answer.  

 

[dkp993]

I lived in an abusive relationship where I had to walk on eggshells.  Surrendering to bullies is not the answer.  

I didn’t say to do any of those things.  

You do you Jon, but just don’t expect others to change (speaking to communication styles) if you aren’t willing to either.  That or just say you’re not here to change anything but only to voice your opinion.  

 

[BladeRunner]

I understand that. There are excellent posters on both sides of the spectrum whose thoughtful, non-divisive approach brings people along for a fruitful discussion. Then there are others on both sides who just wants to spit venom. That's unconstructive. 

Thank you for the kind words, CC. 

 

[BladeRunner]

If anyone's ever been to marriage counseling, you'll know that something that kills relationships is the blame game. Marriages will not improve if partners are not willing to accept responsibility for their own flaws and listen to the other person's feelings. I think our societal 'marriage' uses the same principles. Things aren't going to improve if we only want to tell the other side what's wrong with them. 

I don't blame anyone.  I responsibly accept that you have many flaws. 

 

[LawFitz]

A perfect description of Trump supporters. Imaginary victims in a world of plentiful opportunities.

You, in particular, should read and digest the post just above this one. Good day.

 

[dozer]

You, in particular, should read and digest the post just above this one. Good day.

You don’t hear me crying when someone reports me. I’ve served my suspensions like a man. All of us at one point or another post things knowing a suspension may occur.

As far as Trump supporter victimhood, I offer no apologies. The whole Trumpism dogma relies upon a made up grievance.

For example: The LIE that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump, when the TRUTH is that Trump tried to STEAL the election.

ETA: Good day.

 

[Ghost Rider]

To be 100% clear - I say that as somebody who has said some nasty things, been warned and suspended, and have been called out on my posting style (passive aggressive, prone to take shots at specific people, etc... )   All have been true, and I own up to that.     THAT is the stuff that gets people in trouble around here and gets people responding in kind.   

We can't pretend that presenting reasonable thoughts and being a generally good poster is going to take heat if you are all that and a conservative.   Just don't act like a ####.  

Agreed.  I have basically said it before, but it is worth repeating: if you are someone who is getting suspended with any kind of regularity, then it is probably your own fault, not anyone else's.  To me, it is not difficult to not get suspended.  Granted, I don't get nearly as emotionally invested in these threads as some do, so I reckon that is easy for me to say, but I stand by my point.  And honestly, the mods are pretty darn nice to let people coming back after multiple suspensions (feels like if you are getting suspended more than once a year, you probably need to go permanently, but that is not my call).