Obesity and Ozempic and more (2 Viewers)

[Joe Bryant]

Perfect example of where things are.

Weight loss app, Noom just sent an email with the subject line:

​

I'm not saying it's new. I'm saying it's great marketing.

I think lots of people know deep down that magic fixes don't seem right. But they still want them.

I agree completely a better message would be stressing what you said in that it doesn't need to be some great sacrifice. When the focus is denial, that's tough.

My understanding of Noom is that it is based around EXACTLY what you advocate. Changing of eating habits and exercise with heavy doses of mental healthiness and understanding the psychology of why your habits were not good in the first place.

If your goal is behavior change and not a diet then it really isn't a sacrifice, it is simply adjusting how you eat to be in line with healthy patterns. The reason most people end up losing weight on some diet and then gain it all back is because they sacrificed whatever to follow the diet but then the diet isn't something that could always follow. Once they are off, their key to success is gone and they gain the weight back.

Yes, it is marketing. We all know that. No marketing seeks to be really truthful but rather to be really appealing. However, I would argue that saying "without the sacrifice" isn't misleading like you suggest in that sense that they are not asking you to sacrifice anything- just change a lot of what you are doing.

Thanks. We can debate the semantics of "sacrifice". I think most people would see not eating whatever you want as a "sacrifice". Or a cost. I think it's a small sacrifice well worth making. But I think it's still a sacrifice.

Eating better has a "cost". I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

 

[Chadstroma]

Thanks. We can debate the semantics of "sacrifice". I think most people would see not eating whatever you want as a "sacrifice". Or a cost. I think it's a small sacrifice well worth making. But I think it's still a sacrifice.

Eating better has a "cost". I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong. As I stated, the biggest reason why diets fail is because they are seen as a sacrifice. It isn't the diet that fails it is that people do not tend to commit to sacrificing something the rest of their lives. For a period of time? Sure. Forever? No. So, after that period of sacrifice is up then they revert to not sacrificing.

I am not an expert on Noom but from I know it is very heavy into the psychology of healthy vs unhealthy habits.

Being someone who has lived this and continues to battle it (down 50 pounds currently) THIS is exactly the approach I am taking to adjust how I approach eating and other things like exercise. With the assistance of medication, when it comes to food, I am simply focusing on portion control to retrain myself for a lifetime change. Not sacrifice. My cost? Not eating as much as I use to and dealing with an actual food addiction that would have me adding even more calories in the evenings after dinner. What I eat isn't as concerning to me as how much. Yes, if it is something that is higher in calories, I will portion even smaller but I had some pieces of candy with my kids while watching movies with them..... I had some dessert yesterday at 4th of July celebrations. The key for me to drop this weight off and keep it off is that it ISN'T a sacrifice. It is a life change.

As I am not overly familiar with Noom, I suspect that this is what they are getting at as well with their marketing.

 

[culdeus]

Noom is just my fitness pal with some videos. It's fine but it's nothing game changing. I think they bought content from a company called sota and just went hard with the app.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Thanks. We can debate the semantics of "sacrifice". I think most people would see not eating whatever you want as a "sacrifice". Or a cost. I think it's a small sacrifice well worth making. But I think it's still a sacrifice.

Eating better has a "cost". I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong. As I stated, the biggest reason why diets fail is because they are seen as a sacrifice. It isn't the diet that fails it is that people do not tend to commit to sacrificing something the rest of their lives. For a period of time? Sure. Forever? No. So, after that period of sacrifice is up then they revert to not sacrificing.

I am not an expert on Noom but from I know it is very heavy into the psychology of healthy vs unhealthy habits.

Being someone who has lived this and continues to battle it (down 50 pounds currently) THIS is exactly the approach I am taking to adjust how I approach eating and other things like exercise. With the assistance of medication, when it comes to food, I am simply focusing on portion control to retrain myself for a lifetime change. Not sacrifice. My cost? Not eating as much as I use to and dealing with an actual food addiction that would have me adding even more calories in the evenings after dinner. What I eat isn't as concerning to me as how much. Yes, if it is something that is higher in calories, I will portion even smaller but I had some pieces of candy with my kids while watching movies with them..... I had some dessert yesterday at 4th of July celebrations. The key for me to drop this weight off and keep it off is that it ISN'T a sacrifice. It is a life change.

As I am not overly familiar with Noom, I suspect that this is what they are getting at as well with their marketing.

The hard reset on what one eats is the hardest part. But once you do it, it gets easier.

Americans are inundated from birth to eat like crap. Unless the parents are really on top of it, kids eventually fall prey to the horrible food that is marketed to them beyond belief. I know I did. And my parents are super OG granola hippies. I had ZERO sugar in the house growing up. But once I was free of my moms clutches I dove into the HFCS swimming pool. But it’s possible to get out.

Example from Tuesday. My in-laws are here from HI. They eat very healthily. Mainly veggies and fish. We went to din tai fung for lunch and really enjoyed some dim sum. It was awesome. it’s really good food and truly not that “bad” for you. But it has additives that I don’t put on my food. Way more Salt, sugar, various oils, etc. all any of us wanted for dinner was some veggies. It’s what we were craving is my point. So mostly raw veg for dinner and it was glorious. Both meals were.

Breaking free of the crap food is the key.

A little exercise doesn’t hurt also….

 

[Sand]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wegovy-ozempic-linked-with-sight-threatening-eye-disorder-study-2024-07-03/

If one has diabetes they should think about this possible side effect - NAION, second leading cause of blindness behind glaucoma. 9% incidence while taking semiglutides and 2% without taking. Among those taking for weight loss the numbers are slightly lower (7% vs 1%), but still that's a big headline number. Blindness is a debilitating condition. No way I'd risk sight over a few lbs.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

 

[Joe Bryant]

But I also understand tons of people want the benefit without doing anything.

I've found that's not often reality.

I think it's more of a "choose your hard".

 

[Terminalxylem]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wegovy-ozempic-linked-with-sight-threatening-eye-disorder-study-2024-07-03/

If one has diabetes they should think about this possible side effect - NAION, second leading cause of blindness behind glaucoma. 9% incidence while taking semiglutides and 2% without taking. Among those taking for weight loss the numbers are slightly lower (7% vs 1%), but still that's a big headline number. Blindness is a debilitating condition. No way I'd risk sight over a few lbs.

If accurate, that’s concerning. But those numbers look fishy to me, including the baseline level of NAION.

NAION is the most common acute optic neuropathy in people over 50, affecting between 2.3 and 10.3 people per 100,000 annually.

 

[johnnycakes]

I have never heard of Noom before. After reading about it here, I went to their site and answered all their questions. They want $174 for their 5-month plan plus another $29 for "healthy aging & metabolism". And another $122 to add my son, who also needs to lose weight.

Question: Does this really work?

 

[johnnycakes]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wegovy-ozempic-linked-with-sight-threatening-eye-disorder-study-2024-07-03/

If one has diabetes they should think about this possible side effect - NAION, second leading cause of blindness behind glaucoma. 9% incidence while taking semiglutides and 2% without taking. Among those taking for weight loss the numbers are slightly lower (7% vs 1%), but still that's a big headline number. Blindness is a debilitating condition. No way I'd risk sight over a few lbs.

If accurate, that’s concerning. But those numbers look fishy to me, including the baseline level of NAION.

I am taking Mounjaro right now for T2D... not semaglutide... I emailed the article to my ophthamologist. I go to see her every six months and I know she has been tracking changes in my optic nerve. I will be interested to hear what she has to say.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I have never heard of Noom before. After reading about it here, I went to their site and answered all their questions. They want $174 for their 5-month plan plus another $29 for "healthy aging & metabolism". And another $122 to add my son, who also needs to lose weight.

Question: Does this really work?

I subscribed to Noom for about 4 months. I agree with the poster above that says it's myfitnesspal with some packaging and interactive quizzes. I did not resubscribe.

 

[johnnycakes]

I have never heard of Noom before. After reading about it here, I went to their site and answered all their questions. They want $174 for their 5-month plan plus another $29 for "healthy aging & metabolism". And another $122 to add my son, who also needs to lose weight.

Question: Does this really work?

I subscribed to Noom for about 4 months. I agree with the poster above that says it's myfitnesspal with some packaging and interactive quizzes. I did not resubscribe.

OK, thanks, Joe!

 

[Terminalxylem]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wegovy-ozempic-linked-with-sight-threatening-eye-disorder-study-2024-07-03/

If one has diabetes they should think about this possible side effect - NAION, second leading cause of blindness behind glaucoma. 9% incidence while taking semiglutides and 2% without taking. Among those taking for weight loss the numbers are slightly lower (7% vs 1%), but still that's a big headline number. Blindness is a debilitating condition. No way I'd risk sight over a few lbs.

If accurate, that’s concerning. But those numbers look fishy to me, including the baseline level of NAION.

I am taking Mounjaro right now for T2D... not semaglutide... I emailed the article to my ophthamologist. I go to see her every six months and I know she has been tracking changes in my optic nerve. I will be interested to hear what she has to say.

This is the actual article in JAMA.

 

[johnnycakes]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wegovy-ozempic-linked-with-sight-threatening-eye-disorder-study-2024-07-03/

If one has diabetes they should think about this possible side effect - NAION, second leading cause of blindness behind glaucoma. 9% incidence while taking semiglutides and 2% without taking. Among those taking for weight loss the numbers are slightly lower (7% vs 1%), but still that's a big headline number. Blindness is a debilitating condition. No way I'd risk sight over a few lbs.

If accurate, that’s concerning. But those numbers look fishy to me, including the baseline level of NAION.

I am taking Mounjaro right now for T2D... not semaglutide... I emailed the article to my ophthamologist. I go to see her every six months and I know she has been tracking changes in my optic nerve. I will be interested to hear what she has to say.

This is the actual article in JAMA.

Excellent! Thank you very much!! I'm sending that link, too, just in case she has any spare time!

 

[Terminalxylem]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/wegovy-ozempic-linked-with-sight-threatening-eye-disorder-study-2024-07-03/

If one has diabetes they should think about this possible side effect - NAION, second leading cause of blindness behind glaucoma. 9% incidence while taking semiglutides and 2% without taking. Among those taking for weight loss the numbers are slightly lower (7% vs 1%), but still that's a big headline number. Blindness is a debilitating condition. No way I'd risk sight over a few lbs.

Also to be clear, this is the second most common cause of optic-nerve mediated blindness. Not the number 2 cause of blindness overall.

NAION is a rare disease, whose incidence is 10-100+ fold lower than common complications of obesity.

 

[gianmarco]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

I don't see anyone saying food addiction isn't real.

I was commenting on @Chadstroma 's post about the company's marketing.

Yes, it is marketing. We all know that. No marketing seeks to be really truthful but rather to be really appealing. However, I would argue that saying "without the sacrifice" isn't misleading like you suggest in that sense that they are not asking you to sacrifice anything- just change a lot of what you are doing.

I simply think it's more effective to acknowledge there is some sacrifice in doing something maybe uncomfortable or not exactly as one might prefer instead of marketing the product as without sacrifice. I think lots of people see "changing a lot of what they're doing" as sacrifice.

But as I said, that's mostly semantics and probably not overly important to the bigger topic. I've just personally observed from a marketing angle companies underselling the difficulty of the program they're selling and then it creates problems later. It is effective for the company and initial sales though.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Also, something I feel like maybe doesn't get acknowledged enough.

For the folks in this thread that are on the path to getting healthier and making the effort and progress, CONGRATS.

Be encouraged. I think it's an important thing and I know it's not easy. Making changes is often not easy and you deserve a shout out.

 

[Chadstroma]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

100% and I went from.... I am not going to say skeptical, I mean, I knew 'food addiction' was a real thing but would have never considered myself being an addict. It was just weak willpower to pay that 'cost' and then I was given a drug that is given to addicts to help them deal with the cravings and I realized that it was an addiction.

I think I listened more to those people who say "it is simple, eat less calories than you burn. Make good choices on what you eat." and other extremely ignorant statements. It makes me bristle because usually these are people who never struggled with being obese and don't have any credentials in the area to be an expert. It also tends to come with a hefty amount of disdain for those who in their eyes are just lazy or weak willed. Their knowledge comes from them gaining 5 pounds on vacation and then buckling down to lose that over a couple of weeks of making good choices.

It really gets to me when I hear those simplistic statements downplaying the complexity of obesity for each individual person struggling with it, scoffing at the medication to assist people (which I will tell anyone without an ounce of shame that I am taking), or saying it is a 'cost' that you just need to pay- it shows an absolute ignorance to the reality. No sorry, that whole argument is the crap I listened to for all the years I have been struggling with this and beaten the **** out of myself for not realizing or understanding the actual truth of what was happening and thus being powerless to make any real change.

I would never tell an alcoholic "You know, it is just a cost you have to pay.... a sacrifice you need to make to not drink again." In fact, being not an alcoholic or experiencing that on any level, I would never tell an alcoholic anything about being an alcoholic or how to 'stop'.

I will never say that there are not people that just need to make better food choices in the most simplistic of forms of being over weight but damn..... if you don't realize that most people that are struggling with this goes well beyond that and it isn't a matter of 'just making a sacrifice'. If you can't realize that it isn't about making sacrificing or paying a cost but having to retrain your mind and body in a way that isn't a 'cost' or 'sacrifice' then you are not listening and you have your head in the hole of your own predispositions. And yes, it will irritate me.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

100% and I went from.... I am not going to say skeptical, I mean, I knew 'food addiction' was a real thing but would have never considered myself being an addict. It was just weak willpower to pay that 'cost' and then I was given a drug that is given to addicts to help them deal with the cravings and I realized that it was an addiction.

I think I listened more to those people who say "it is simple, eat less calories than you burn. Make good choices on what you eat." and other extremely ignorant statements. It makes me bristle because usually these are people who never struggled with being obese and don't have any credentials in the area to be an expert. It also tends to come with a hefty amount of disdain for those who in their eyes are just lazy or weak willed. Their knowledge comes from them gaining 5 pounds on vacation and then buckling down to lose that over a couple of weeks of making good choices.

It really gets to me when I hear those simplistic statements downplaying the complexity of obesity for each individual person struggling with it, scoffing at the medication to assist people (which I will tell anyone without an ounce of shame that I am taking), or saying it is a 'cost' that you just need to pay- it shows an absolute ignorance to the reality. No sorry, that whole argument is the crap I listened to for all the years I have been struggling with this and beaten the **** out of myself for not realizing or understanding the actual truth of what was happening and thus being powerless to make any real change.

I would never tell an alcoholic "You know, it is just a cost you have to pay.... a sacrifice you need to make to not drink again." In fact, being not an alcoholic or experiencing that on any level, I would never tell an alcoholic anything about being an alcoholic or how to 'stop'.

I will never say that there are not people that just need to make better food choices in the most simplistic of forms of being over weight but damn..... if you don't realize that most people that are struggling with this goes well beyond that and it isn't a matter of 'just making a sacrifice'. If you can't realize that it isn't about making sacrificing or paying a cost but having to retrain your mind and body in a way that isn't a 'cost' or 'sacrifice' then you are not listening and you have your head in the hole of your own predispositions. And yes, it will irritate me.

Thanks for sharing your insights and experience. I've found these discussions valuable to listen to other experiences as well as express my own. As I've said, I have some close friends who've had very positive experiences with Ozempic and that adds to the picture for me as well. Thanks for sharing and best to you in the journey here. Rock on.

 

[Chadstroma]

I saw a message back from my Endocrinologist where she is going to switch me from Ozempic to WeGovy. This was based on my communication with her leading up to my follow up visit in late August. The reason for the change is that even though they are the exact same actual drug, the WeGovy is approved with a higher dosage amount for weight loss. My original Endocrinologist actually wanted to put me on WeGovy to begin with but checked my insurance and they did not cover it. So, since I was just on the line of being pre-diabetic he thought there was a chance my insurance would cover it. This was before I realized that all of it would be covered because of hitting our family deductible.

Along the same lines, my wife just told me that her last surgery has been pushed back and may even end up in the next year. So, the bad news is that our HSA will be drained again but the good news if that happens is that I would have up to another year worth of assistance from these medications from a financial perspective.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

Thanks.

A couple of questions:

From the article you linked Food addiction is a real thing.:

Food addiction is an addiction to highly processed foods, sometimes referred to as “junk food,” and is comparable to drug addiction.

It’s a relatively new and controversial term, and high quality statistics on its prevalence are lacking.

Food addiction is similar to several other disorders, including binge eating disorder, bulimia, compulsive overeating, and other feeding and eating disorders.

1. I realize it's an inexact thing, but of the 40% of the population that is obese, do you have a guess for what percentage of them are suffering from a clinical definition of food addiction?

I'm interested in how it relates to alcohol. I know quite a few people who likely should drink alcohol less and feel consequences from drinking. But most would say they're not alcoholics.

2. And so I'm clear, are you saying someone addicted to food is on the same level as an alcoholic is to alcohol?

Thanks for the insights.

 

[Chadstroma]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

Thanks.

A couple of questions:

From the article you linked Food addiction is a real thing.:

Food addiction is an addiction to highly processed foods, sometimes referred to as “junk food,” and is comparable to drug addiction.

It’s a relatively new and controversial term, and high quality statistics on its prevalence are lacking.

Food addiction is similar to several other disorders, including binge eating disorder, bulimia, compulsive overeating, and other feeding and eating disorders.

1. I realize it's an inexact thing, but of the 40% of the population that is obese, do you have a guess for what percentage of them are suffering from a clinical definition of food addiction?

I'm interested in how it relates to alcohol. I know quite a few people who likely should drink alcohol less and feel consequences from drinking. But most would say they're not alcoholics.

2. And so I'm clear, are you saying someone addicted to food is on the same level as an alcoholic is to alcohol?

Thanks for the insights.

I have no guess.

I will say that for me that definition does not ring true. Processed foods are just easier to be honest but my cravings would be satisfied with cashews, pistachios or broccoli and hummus as my usual go to's when I was losing weight under low carb diet. My craving would hit in the evenings. I could eat pretty much anything to relieve it though processed foods were often easier to go to I'm the evenings (evening being sometime after dinner time through late night). So, the connection of processed foods really doesn't hit home for me.

I grew up going to AA meetings as my mother is a recovering alcoholic and has been sober for nearly 50 years now. My brother is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. I likely have more insight into this than your average non-expert and I would say any speculation from anyone who hasn't dealt with addiction to both food and alcohol would be pointless. I do think my realization that what I was dealing with was an actual addiction has helped me gain some insight into other addictions. From not realizing you have an addiction to the driving craving that forces you back no matter how much willpower you apply to it. The insight is similar to me in like understanding what my Mom went through as a parent losing a child (my little sister) to having more insight when I became a parent. I had really no way to compare before having children but even having children where I can somewhat better understand it, I know that I still have no real understanding of what it is like to experience that (and I hopefully will never, my biggest fear in life is outliving any of my children).

 

[gianmarco]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

Thanks.

A couple of questions:

From the article you linked Food addiction is a real thing.:

Food addiction is an addiction to highly processed foods, sometimes referred to as “junk food,” and is comparable to drug addiction.

It’s a relatively new and controversial term, and high quality statistics on its prevalence are lacking.

Food addiction is similar to several other disorders, including binge eating disorder, bulimia, compulsive overeating, and other feeding and eating disorders.

1. I realize it's an inexact thing, but of the 40% of the population that is obese, do you have a guess for what percentage of them are suffering from a clinical definition of food addiction?

I'm interested in how it relates to alcohol. I know quite a few people who likely should drink alcohol less and feel consequences from drinking. But most would say they're not alcoholics.

2. And so I'm clear, are you saying someone addicted to food is on the same level as an alcoholic is to alcohol?

Thanks for the insights.

There are more and more studies looking at these numbers. I can't answer the above questions any better than what these show right now.

Here's 1 link with statistics

Here's another good read

List of most and least addictive foods

And, finally, here's a list of 5 addictive drugs in order of potency. Not everything is equal. If you give 100 people cocaine, a higher number of them will end up addicted to it than if you give 100 people alcohol or a cigarette. It doesn't mean that alcohol or cigarettes aren't addicting, it's just that there's a lot that goes into it including genetics, patterns of use, amount and time of use, etc.

Luckily, not everybody is exposed to cocaine so we don't see vast numbers of cocaine addiction. However, the vast majority of us here in the US are exposed to these processed foods early and often, so by sheer numbers, you're going to have a lot more people addicted to food than cocaine even if it's not as addictive.

In the end, yes, I think food addiction is every bit the same as alcohol (or nicotine or whatever else) addiction because it causes the same biochemical processes in the body that cause the dependence and cravings.

People taking these medications for obesity WANT to get better and this is a tool that gets them there. I would view it similarly to smoking cessation patches or medications. And those cravings don't necessarily go away for everyone which is why many relapse when they stop taking it.

And finally, addiction isn't just either/or. It's a spectrum. There are alcoholics who have lives completely destroyed and there are also very functional alcoholics who, likely don't recognize their addiction because they can still function without any social or workplace or home impairment but are still every bit as addicted to alcohol. Ask them to give up alcohol and it would be a very difficult task. Same likely goes for food. Those of us who could all stand to lose a few pounds but overindulge, yeah, that's probably why for a not insignificant number of people in that group.

 

[Northern Voice]

I like Noom. Used it at a discount price, would again. Would not pay full price.

I use MyFitnessPal and track/weigh foods, ultimately calories in/calories out is the only way you lose weight, you can accomplish having more calories expended than consumed countless number of ways and Noom was fun for me for a while. MyFitnessPal is fine (I wouldn't pay their premium rate either).

It's hard to change habits. Noom at least tries to have people do that rather than putting them on some short term quick fix path. Ultimately that ability or desire or whatever to permanently change habits has to come from within. I don't know if I have it or not, I know I've been a lot better over the past 18 months or so than I was the 20 years before but it's not easy and I don't really trust myself to stick with it yet.

The things I feel like I'm missing are stupid. It's like chips and pizza every weekend instead of chips and pizza once a month like I'm doing now. But I still want chips and pizza every weekend.

 

[belljr]

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong.

Thanks. No worries. I think eating better has a "cost". And I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

I don't think you're acknowledging what a food addiction is. It's not as simple as eating better is a "cost" or "sacrifice". Or that people want a benefit without doing anything.

People with addictions CAN'T pay the "cost". They aren't capable without help. Some people are able to overcome their addictions on their own. Most can't. That's why there's smoking cessation drugs. That's why there's things like methadone clinics. And that's why there's success stories with these medications for weight loss. And it's why there's so many addicts that suffer and never get better DESPITE knowing and living the consequences. People who lose everything they have due to their addiction.

Food addiction is a real thing. There are biochemical changes that occur in some people that don't occur in others. So it's not as simple as choosing to "sacrifice". And it's definitely not "pretending there is no cost". Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive, IMO.

Thanks.

A couple of questions:

From the article you linked Food addiction is a real thing.:

Food addiction is an addiction to highly processed foods, sometimes referred to as “junk food,” and is comparable to drug addiction.

It’s a relatively new and controversial term, and high quality statistics on its prevalence are lacking.

Food addiction is similar to several other disorders, including binge eating disorder, bulimia, compulsive overeating, and other feeding and eating disorders.

1. I realize it's an inexact thing, but of the 40% of the population that is obese, do you have a guess for what percentage of them are suffering from a clinical definition of food addiction?

I'm interested in how it relates to alcohol. I know quite a few people who likely should drink alcohol less and feel consequences from drinking. But most would say they're not alcoholics.

2. And so I'm clear, are you saying someone addicted to food is on the same level as an alcoholic is to alcohol?

Thanks for the insights.

There are more and more studies looking at these numbers. I can't answer the above questions any better than what these show right now.

Here's 1 link with statistics

Here's another good read

List of most and least addictive foods

And, finally, here's a list of 5 addictive drugs in order of potency. Not everything is equal. If you give 100 people cocaine, a higher number of them will end up addicted to it than if you give 100 people alcohol or a cigarette. It doesn't mean that alcohol or cigarettes aren't addicting, it's just that there's a lot that goes into it including genetics, patterns of use, amount and time of use, etc.

Luckily, not everybody is exposed to cocaine so we don't see vast numbers of cocaine addiction. However, the vast majority of us here in the US are exposed to these processed foods early and often, so by sheer numbers, you're going to have a lot more people addicted to food than cocaine even if it's not as addictive.

In the end, yes, I think food addiction is every bit the same as alcohol (or nicotine or whatever else) addiction because it causes the same biochemical processes in the body that cause the dependence and cravings.

People taking these medications for obesity WANT to get better and this is a tool that gets them there. I would view it similarly to smoking cessation patches or medications. And those cravings don't necessarily go away for everyone which is why many relapse when they stop taking it

I said something similar at the start of the thread sugar/processed food is a drug that's tough to kick

 

[gianmarco]

I like Noom. Used it at a discount price, would again. Would not pay full price.

I use MyFitnessPal and track/weigh foods, ultimately calories in/calories out is the only way you lose weight, you can accomplish having more calories expended than consumed countless number of ways and Noom was fun for me for a while. MyFitnessPal is fine (I wouldn't pay their premium rate either).

It's hard to change habits. Noom at least tries to have people do that rather than putting them on some short term quick fix path. Ultimately that ability or desire or whatever to permanently change habits has to come from within. I don't know if I have it or not, I know I've been a lot better over the past 18 months or so than I was the 20 years before but it's not easy and I don't really trust myself to stick with it yet.

The things I feel like I'm missing are stupid. It's like chips and pizza every weekend instead of chips and pizza once a month like I'm doing now. But I still want chips and pizza every weekend.

1st and 3rd most addictive foods on the list I linked above.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I like Noom. Used it at a discount price, would again. Would not pay full price.

I use MyFitnessPal and track/weigh foods, ultimately calories in/calories out is the only way you lose weight, you can accomplish having more calories expended than consumed countless number of ways and Noom was fun for me for a while. MyFitnessPal is fine (I wouldn't pay their premium rate either).

It's hard to change habits. Noom at least tries to have people do that rather than putting them on some short term quick fix path. Ultimately that ability or desire or whatever to permanently change habits has to come from within. I don't know if I have it or not, I know I've been a lot better over the past 18 months or so than I was the 20 years before but it's not easy and I don't really trust myself to stick with it yet.

The things I feel like I'm missing are stupid. It's like chips and pizza every weekend instead of chips and pizza once a month like I'm doing now. But I still want chips and pizza every weekend.

Thanks. I think that makes sense. And I completely get the chips thing and it being stupid. Having them once a month instead of every weekend is a good example of what I was talking about earlier.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I would say any speculation from anyone who hasn't dealt with addiction to both food and alcohol would be pointless.

As I've said here, I appreciate insights and experiences of others that have dealt with specific issues.

Not as much a fan of telling people their opinions are pointless on a public forum unless they meet the qualifications we set for them. It's how we get former athletes telling women they can't discuss Football. Seems way better to encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences. Hopefully we can continue to do that.

 

[Doug B]

Suggesting that to someone who is addicted to food and needs help to overcome it is pretty dismissive

Thank you for posting this.

 

[Chadstroma]

I would say any speculation from anyone who hasn't dealt with addiction to both food and alcohol would be pointless.

As I've said here, I appreciate insights and experiences of others that have dealt with specific issues.

Not as much a fan of telling people their opinions are pointless on a public forum unless they meet the qualifications we set for them. It's how we get former athletes telling women they can't discuss Football. Seems way better to encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences. Hopefully we can continue to do that.

It is pointless because you have no idea how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to food.... just as much as I don't know how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to alcohol. My speculation would be as pointless as anyone else's because I do not have a point of reference for both. I can talk somewhat about it because I have experienced part of it but if there was someone in front of me with an addiction to both, I would shut up and listen.... only talking to ask questions, if I really wanted to learn about it. I am not saying that someone who is not an expert in the subject e.g. Doctor, Addiction Counseler, etc or has experienced it (in this case, both addictions) but if you don't start with an understanding that you really have no idea what you are talking about then you are not being truthful to yourself and those reading your opinions. It is as much value as debating who the GOAT Basketball player is... you can talk about it, it may be fun to talk about it, but in the end the entire conversation is pointless because it can never be objectively ended in agreement. It is pointless but some people find it interesting to discuss and enjoy that. (And the GOAT is Jordan). I just don’t have a need to validate everyone on their opinions or feelings, even more so sense many of those opinions in this subject have caused me real harm over my life that I am just now realizing.

 

[johnnycakes]

I would say any speculation from anyone who hasn't dealt with addiction to both food and alcohol would be pointless.

As I've said here, I appreciate insights and experiences of others that have dealt with specific issues.

Not as much a fan of telling people their opinions are pointless on a public forum unless they meet the qualifications we set for them. It's how we get former athletes telling women they can't discuss Football. Seems way better to encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences. Hopefully we can continue to do that.

It is pointless because you have no idea how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to food.... just as much as I don't know how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to alcohol. My speculation would be as pointless as anyone else's because I do not have a point of reference for both. I can talk somewhat about it because I have experienced part of it but if there was someone in front of me with an addiction to both, I would shut up and listen.... only talking to ask questions, if I really wanted to learn about it. I am not saying that someone who is not an expert in the subject e.g. Doctor, Addiction Counseler, etc or has experienced it (in this case, both addictions) but if you don't start with an understanding that you really have no idea what you are talking about then you are not being truthful to yourself and those reading your opinions. It is as much value as debating who the GOAT Basketball player is... you can talk about it, it may be fun to talk about it, but in the end the entire conversation is pointless because it can never be objectively ended in agreement. It is pointless but some people find it interesting to discuss and enjoy that. (And the GOAT is Jordan). I just don’t have a need to validate everyone on their opinions or feelings, even more so sense many of those opinions in this subject have caused me real harm over my life that I am just now realizing.

Let's get this straight. The GOAT of basketball is Larry Bird. After Larry is Magic. Then maybe Jordan. But I will tell you Jaylen Brown is making a very strong case recently.

 

[massraider]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I would say any speculation from anyone who hasn't dealt with addiction to both food and alcohol would be pointless.

As I've said here, I appreciate insights and experiences of others that have dealt with specific issues.

Not as much a fan of telling people their opinions are pointless on a public forum unless they meet the qualifications we set for them. It's how we get former athletes telling women they can't discuss Football. Seems way better to encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences. Hopefully we can continue to do that.

It is pointless because you have no idea how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to food.... just as much as I don't know how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to alcohol. My speculation would be as pointless as anyone else's because I do not have a point of reference for both. I can talk somewhat about it because I have experienced part of it but if there was someone in front of me with an addiction to both, I would shut up and listen.... only talking to ask questions, if I really wanted to learn about it. I am not saying that someone who is not an expert in the subject e.g. Doctor, Addiction Counseler, etc or has experienced it (in this case, both addictions) but if you don't start with an understanding that you really have no idea what you are talking about then you are not being truthful to yourself and those reading your opinions. It is as much value as debating who the GOAT Basketball player is... you can talk about it, it may be fun to talk about it, but in the end the entire conversation is pointless because it can never be objectively ended in agreement. It is pointless but some people find it interesting to discuss and enjoy that. (And the GOAT is Jordan). I just don’t have a need to validate everyone on their opinions or feelings, even more so sense many of those opinions in this subject have caused me real harm over my life that I am just now realizing.

Again, thanks for sharing your insights. I disagree with you that it's pointless to discuss things like this in a public forum and dismiss civil people and opinions. As I said, I'd rather us encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences.

Thank you for helping me understand your position and experience. I wish you well on this continued journey.

 

[Grahamburn]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

 

[gianmarco]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Based on your post, you don't seem like you read the links I posted above nor do you seem to have an understanding about addiction. Addiction has nothing to do with "trying very hard". Addiction has very little to do with willpower.

You unintentionally gave a reason why it is fair to compare them with the part I bolded in your response. You don't hear about people being addicted to broccoli or fish because they aren't addictive foods. Other foods ARE addicting even though you don't need them to survive (pizza, chips, ice cream, fries, etc). Except that's the whole thing with addiction.... People addicted to those foods can't just stay away from them and switch to better/healthier/non-addicting options without help.

"Don't keep them in the house". Not a solution. Sure, it's fine for a moment. Until it starts affecting mood and ability to function without thinking about it, cravings, drive by a McDonald's or be around someone else eating any of the above and then you get some and then the cravings/dependence wins and the cycle starts all over again. Especially when this kind of food is EVERYWHERE. Substance and food addictions are so glaringly the same and how they work in the body.

 

[Grahamburn]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Based on your post, you don't seem like you read the links I posted above nor do you seem to have an understanding about addiction. Addiction has nothing to do with "trying very hard". Addiction has very little to do with willpower.

You unintentionally gave a reason why it is fair to compare them with the part I bolded in your response. You don't hear about people being addicted to broccoli or fish because they aren't addictive foods. Other foods ARE addicting even though you don't need them to survive (pizza, chips, ice cream, fries, etc). Except that's the whole thing with addiction.... People addicted to those foods can't just stay away from them and switch to better/healthier/non-addicting options without help.

"Don't keep them in the house". Not a solution. Sure, it's fine for a moment. Until it starts affecting mood and ability to function without thinking about it, cravings, drive by a McDonald's or be around someone else eating any of the above and then you get some and then the cravings/dependence wins and the cycle starts all over again. Especially when this kind of food is EVERYWHERE. Substance and food addictions are so glaringly the same and how they work in the body.

I don't believe those foods to be addictive. Delicious. Craveable. Sure. Not truly addictive. That's a cop out. If they truly were addictive similarly to the way drugs or alcohol are every single one of us would be obese because we've all eaten pizza or hamburgers or ice cream.

Yet, people are able to stick to diets and make healthy choices in spite of experiencing these foods in their past. When people choose pizza or a bacon cheeseburger over fish or broccoli at a restaurant they're doing exactly that. Making a choice. Someone addicted to heroin doesn't have a choice without true intervention. If we're addicted to food how can you explain mixing in the occasional salad once in a while? I just made breakfast for my kids. They had french toast covered in butter and syrup. My wife and I had egg white omelets with arugula, tomatoes, and goat cheese. I made a choice.

Just my opinion and I think that's kind of what Joe has been trying to say. The "sacrifice" of choosing the healthier option to sustain your body. There's no "healthy" option when it comes to drugs or alcohol. They're all bad for you in one way or another.

"Don't keep them in the house" is definitely a solution for a lot of people. It works for me. I don't think I'm addicted to chips, but if I have them in the house I'll certainly snack on them.

These drugs are a new solution and they seem to be working. I hope the people using them get to a healthy weight and then are able to sustain it once they're off of them. I hope that's the goal. I worry it's a crutch for a lot of people to lose weight while still making poor choices with their eating habits and ignoring exercise.

 

[gianmarco]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Based on your post, you don't seem like you read the links I posted above nor do you seem to have an understanding about addiction. Addiction has nothing to do with "trying very hard". Addiction has very little to do with willpower.

You unintentionally gave a reason why it is fair to compare them with the part I bolded in your response. You don't hear about people being addicted to broccoli or fish because they aren't addictive foods. Other foods ARE addicting even though you don't need them to survive (pizza, chips, ice cream, fries, etc). Except that's the whole thing with addiction.... People addicted to those foods can't just stay away from them and switch to better/healthier/non-addicting options without help.

"Don't keep them in the house". Not a solution. Sure, it's fine for a moment. Until it starts affecting mood and ability to function without thinking about it, cravings, drive by a McDonald's or be around someone else eating any of the above and then you get some and then the cravings/dependence wins and the cycle starts all over again. Especially when this kind of food is EVERYWHERE. Substance and food addictions are so glaringly the same and how they work in the body.

I don't believe those foods to be addictive. Delicious. Craveable. Sure. Not truly addictive. That's a cop out. If they truly were addictive similarly to the way drugs or alcohol are every single one of us would be obese because we've all eaten pizza or hamburgers or ice cream.

Yet, people are able to stick to diets and make healthy choices in spite of experiencing these foods in their past. When people choose pizza or a bacon cheeseburger over fish or broccoli at a restaurant they're doing exactly that. Making a choice. Someone addicted to heroin doesn't have a choice without true intervention. If we're addicted to food how can you explain mixing in the occasional salad once in a while? I just made breakfast for my kids. They had french toast covered in butter and syrup. My wife and I had egg white omelets with arugula, tomatoes, and goat cheese. I made a choice.

Just my opinion and I think that's kind of what Joe has been trying to say. The "sacrifice" of choosing the healthier option to sustain your body. There's no "healthy" option when it comes to drugs or alcohol. They're all bad for you in one way or another.

"Don't keep them in the house" is definitely a solution for a lot of people. It works for me. I don't think I'm addicted to chips, but if I have them in the house I'll certainly snack on them.

These drugs are a new solution and they seem to be working. I hope the people using them get to a healthy weight and then are able to sustain it once they're off of them. I hope that's the goal. I worry it's a crutch for a lot of people to lose weight while still making poor choices with their eating habits and ignoring exercise.

Well, unfortunately your mindset is one of the obstacles that people with addictions have to face. People that deny it even exists.

You're welcome to your opinions, but understand that your opinions are refuted by scientific evidence to the contrary. It has been demonstrated, with scientific validity (brain scans, for example) that the brains of people with addiction respond differently than those without. You should really just take a few minutes to read the links I posted above, because it's clear you haven't. If you have, then it's unfortunate that you dismiss what the scientific community says about it because your "opinions" differ.

I hope you can educate yourself about this some day and hope you never have to encounter it (any kind of addiction) in your personal life.

And, to your broader points, the reason everyone isn't obese and isn't addicted to these foods is because not everyone actually has brains that are predisposed to suffering from addiction. Same way not everyone has high blood pressure and not everyone has diabetes and not everyone has asthma. But, unfortunately, there are people that do (read the links to see how common it is) and it's THOSE people that suffer from it, and it has zero to do with will power or not being able to make good choices.

 

[bigbottom]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Based on your post, you don't seem like you read the links I posted above nor do you seem to have an understanding about addiction. Addiction has nothing to do with "trying very hard". Addiction has very little to do with willpower.

You unintentionally gave a reason why it is fair to compare them with the part I bolded in your response. You don't hear about people being addicted to broccoli or fish because they aren't addictive foods. Other foods ARE addicting even though you don't need them to survive (pizza, chips, ice cream, fries, etc). Except that's the whole thing with addiction.... People addicted to those foods can't just stay away from them and switch to better/healthier/non-addicting options without help.

"Don't keep them in the house". Not a solution. Sure, it's fine for a moment. Until it starts affecting mood and ability to function without thinking about it, cravings, drive by a McDonald's or be around someone else eating any of the above and then you get some and then the cravings/dependence wins and the cycle starts all over again. Especially when this kind of food is EVERYWHERE. Substance and food addictions are so glaringly the same and how they work in the body.

I don't believe those foods to be addictive. Delicious. Craveable. Sure. Not truly addictive. That's a cop out. If they truly were addictive similarly to the way drugs or alcohol are every single one of us would be obese because we've all eaten pizza or hamburgers or ice cream.

I don’t follow the logic in the bolded. Is everyone who has had a drink addicted to alcohol? Is everyone who has smoked a cigarette addicted to nicotine? Is everyone who has tried a drug a drug addict?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Couple of quick replies here:
1. I’m a recovering alcoholic, and we keep alcohol in our house. My wife drinks beer and wine (in very small doses IMO haha). We keep it in the cellar. I couldn’t tell you what she even has there - I have zero desire to consume any of it and haven’t had a drink in 10+ years.
2. I have many friends in AA who would be panicked to keep booze in the house. Some folks see it as temptation, and I get why. It just isn’t my experience though.
3. As you noted, food is very different than drugs / alcohol, because you don’t need to use drugs or alcohol each day to survive. But you DO need to eat food. My mom - who was obese for years and definitely had a food addiction - used to talk about this distinction all the time.

Unrelated to these specific quoted posts, my dad quit drinking and smoking. I quit drinking and definitely have been addicted to sugar (processed foods, ice cream / donuts / etc) since giving up alcohol. My mom has struggled with food addiction her whole life but has gotten help and done really well the past 15-ish years.

My dad found nicotine harder to stop than alcohol. I’ve found giving up sugar (whatever that means) way harder than giving up alcohol — but in fairness, sugar wasn’t going to cost me my family, my job, my friends, etc. So I didn’t have the same desperation to ask for help.

Anyway, no idea what all the above means. Just sharing my family and personal experience.

Congrats to folks in here who have taken steps to get help and make a change. I don’t care what approach people are using - Noom, Ozempic, Weight Watchers, whatever. Taking action to change is hard, and it’s ok to ask for help. Asking for help takes strength, regardless of what society often tells us.

 

[top dog]

Thanks. We can debate the semantics of "sacrifice". I think most people would see not eating whatever you want as a "sacrifice". Or a cost. I think it's a small sacrifice well worth making. But I think it's still a sacrifice.

Eating better has a "cost". I think the better way is to acknowledge the cost is well worth it. Instead of pretending there is no cost.

As someone who actually has and is dealing with this... I think you are wrong. As I stated, the biggest reason why diets fail is because they are seen as a sacrifice. It isn't the diet that fails it is that people do not tend to commit to sacrificing something the rest of their lives. For a period of time? Sure. Forever? No. So, after that period of sacrifice is up then they revert to not sacrificing.

I am not an expert on Noom but from I know it is very heavy into the psychology of healthy vs unhealthy habits.

Being someone who has lived this and continues to battle it (down 50 pounds currently) THIS is exactly the approach I am taking to adjust how I approach eating and other things like exercise. With the assistance of medication, when it comes to food, I am simply focusing on portion control to retrain myself for a lifetime change. Not sacrifice. My cost? Not eating as much as I use to and dealing with an actual food addiction that would have me adding even more calories in the evenings after dinner. What I eat isn't as concerning to me as how much. Yes, if it is something that is higher in calories, I will portion even smaller but I had some pieces of candy with my kids while watching movies with them..... I had some dessert yesterday at 4th of July celebrations. The key for me to drop this weight off and keep it off is that it ISN'T a sacrifice. It is a life change.

As I am not overly familiar with Noom, I suspect that this is what they are getting at as well with their marketing.

My wife lost over 70 lbs. I'm down 60. For the first time in I can't remember how long I can buy clothes off the rack in most stores without having to find the Big and Tall section or hoping they have something larger than a 42 waist. I went from a 46 inch waist to a 38. You are 100% right about how it can't be a sacrifice. It has to be a lifestyle change. My wife and I do not eat out anymore. On a special occasion like someone's birthday in the family we will go out but choices are made very carefully on what to get from the menu. We've found healthy snacks that we both like, found healthier meals that we both like. The biggest change I think is understanding the amount of calories that are in various foods and really understanding what a portion size is. We eat good. We enjoy what we eat and avoid the things that "just aren't worth the calories". We both lost weight before with Weight Watchers but once you stop doing it, the lbs creep back. We were at my wife's parents house for the 4th. We brought our own turkey burgers and lower carb buns. My wife made the mac n cheese for the party but neither one of us ate any of that.

Both my wife and I used Adipex to help with the weight loss. She has been off it for 3 months or so. I've been off of it for a month. I don't really notice much of a difference in hunger or anything. The doc says your stomach shrinks and through awareness of what I am shoveling into my mouth helps a lot.

 

[Grahamburn]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Based on your post, you don't seem like you read the links I posted above nor do you seem to have an understanding about addiction. Addiction has nothing to do with "trying very hard". Addiction has very little to do with willpower.

You unintentionally gave a reason why it is fair to compare them with the part I bolded in your response. You don't hear about people being addicted to broccoli or fish because they aren't addictive foods. Other foods ARE addicting even though you don't need them to survive (pizza, chips, ice cream, fries, etc). Except that's the whole thing with addiction.... People addicted to those foods can't just stay away from them and switch to better/healthier/non-addicting options without help.

"Don't keep them in the house". Not a solution. Sure, it's fine for a moment. Until it starts affecting mood and ability to function without thinking about it, cravings, drive by a McDonald's or be around someone else eating any of the above and then you get some and then the cravings/dependence wins and the cycle starts all over again. Especially when this kind of food is EVERYWHERE. Substance and food addictions are so glaringly the same and how they work in the body.

I don't believe those foods to be addictive. Delicious. Craveable. Sure. Not truly addictive. That's a cop out. If they truly were addictive similarly to the way drugs or alcohol are every single one of us would be obese because we've all eaten pizza or hamburgers or ice cream.

I don’t follow the logic in the bolded. Is everyone who has had a drink addicted to alcohol? Is everyone who has smoked a cigarette addicted to nicotine? Is everyone who has tried a drug a drug addict?

Yeah, I thought about that while I was posting it. I don't think addictive is the right word to associate with food I guess. Others disagree. And there are going to be varying degrees of addicts with any of these unhealthy behaviors.

 

[Grahamburn]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Couple of quick replies here:
1. I’m a recovering alcoholic, and we keep alcohol in our house. My wife drinks beer and wine (in very small doses IMO haha). We keep it in the cellar. I couldn’t tell you what she even has there - I have zero desire to consume any of it and haven’t had a drink in 10+ years.
2. I have many friends in AA who would be panicked to keep booze in the house. Some folks see it as temptation, and I get why. It just isn’t my experience though.
3. As you noted, food is very different than drugs / alcohol, because you don’t need to use drugs or alcohol each day to survive. But you DO need to eat food. My mom - who was obese for years and definitely had a food addiction - used to talk about this distinction all the time.

Unrelated to these specific quoted posts, my dad quit drinking and smoking. I quit drinking and definitely have been addicted to sugar (processed foods, ice cream / donuts / etc) since giving up alcohol. My mom has struggled with food addiction her whole life but has gotten help and done really well the past 15-ish years.

My dad found nicotine harder to stop than alcohol. I’ve found giving up sugar (whatever that means) way harder than giving up alcohol — but in fairness, sugar wasn’t going to cost me my family, my job, my friends, etc. So I didn’t have the same desperation to ask for help.

Anyway, no idea what all the above means. Just sharing my family and personal experience.

Congrats to folks in here who have taken steps to get help and make a change. I don’t care what approach people are using - Noom, Ozempic, Weight Watchers, whatever. Taking action to change is hard, and it’s ok to ask for help. Asking for help takes strength, regardless of what society often tells us.

I'm an alcoholic as well. Drink to excess 3-4 nights a week. I applaud your efforts and understand how difficult that must have been. I can also understand why others may consider me dismissive of their issues with food when they could just as easily say to me, "just stop then" in regards to alcohol.

We all have our own unique perspectives. Making proper food choices seems to come easier to me while having a productive relationship with alcohol does not. I think they're different, but I'm also seeing things through my eyes and from my perspective.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Couple of quick replies here:
1. I’m a recovering alcoholic, and we keep alcohol in our house. My wife drinks beer and wine (in very small doses IMO haha). We keep it in the cellar. I couldn’t tell you what she even has there - I have zero desire to consume any of it and haven’t had a drink in 10+ years.
2. I have many friends in AA who would be panicked to keep booze in the house. Some folks see it as temptation, and I get why. It just isn’t my experience though.
3. As you noted, food is very different than drugs / alcohol, because you don’t need to use drugs or alcohol each day to survive. But you DO need to eat food. My mom - who was obese for years and definitely had a food addiction - used to talk about this distinction all the time.

Unrelated to these specific quoted posts, my dad quit drinking and smoking. I quit drinking and definitely have been addicted to sugar (processed foods, ice cream / donuts / etc) since giving up alcohol. My mom has struggled with food addiction her whole life but has gotten help and done really well the past 15-ish years.

My dad found nicotine harder to stop than alcohol. I’ve found giving up sugar (whatever that means) way harder than giving up alcohol — but in fairness, sugar wasn’t going to cost me my family, my job, my friends, etc. So I didn’t have the same desperation to ask for help.

Anyway, no idea what all the above means. Just sharing my family and personal experience.

Congrats to folks in here who have taken steps to get help and make a change. I don’t care what approach people are using - Noom, Ozempic, Weight Watchers, whatever. Taking action to change is hard, and it’s ok to ask for help. Asking for help takes strength, regardless of what society often tells us.

Thanks for sharing. That's awesome. And thanks for the insight too on the differences some see in alcohol in the home vs not. I think it illustrates a good point that different people can have different experiences with it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DocHolliday]

What would you say about a cocaine or alcohol addict, who was trying to break the addiction, but kept cocaine and alcohol in the house?

What would you say?

You obviously aren't asking me, but I'd say they weren't trying very hard. Not overly different than an obese person keeping chips or cookies or other junk food in the house.

I also think these addictions are so glaringly different that it's not fair to compare them. Your body doesn't need drugs or alcohol to survive. It does need food to survive. Wonder why we never hear about anyone being addicted to fresh broccoli or fish?

Based on your post, you don't seem like you read the links I posted above nor do you seem to have an understanding about addiction. Addiction has nothing to do with "trying very hard". Addiction has very little to do with willpower.

You unintentionally gave a reason why it is fair to compare them with the part I bolded in your response. You don't hear about people being addicted to broccoli or fish because they aren't addictive foods. Other foods ARE addicting even though you don't need them to survive (pizza, chips, ice cream, fries, etc). Except that's the whole thing with addiction.... People addicted to those foods can't just stay away from them and switch to better/healthier/non-addicting options without help.

"Don't keep them in the house". Not a solution. Sure, it's fine for a moment. Until it starts affecting mood and ability to function without thinking about it, cravings, drive by a McDonald's or be around someone else eating any of the above and then you get some and then the cravings/dependence wins and the cycle starts all over again. Especially when this kind of food is EVERYWHERE. Substance and food addictions are so glaringly the same and how they work in the body.

Unhealthy food is everywhere. It took me many attempts to break my sugar addiction. I don’t think my sugar addiction remotely compares to alcohol or drug addiction but it is a struggle. I probably could have kicked my sugar habit years earlier if I removed it from my house but I couldn’t tell my family that all sugar had to go. That wasn’t realistic and wouldn’t have been fair to them. I just had to focus on eating better one day at a time and eventually the cravings faded.

 

[Chadstroma]

I would say any speculation from anyone who hasn't dealt with addiction to both food and alcohol would be pointless.

As I've said here, I appreciate insights and experiences of others that have dealt with specific issues.

Not as much a fan of telling people their opinions are pointless on a public forum unless they meet the qualifications we set for them. It's how we get former athletes telling women they can't discuss Football. Seems way better to encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences. Hopefully we can continue to do that.

It is pointless because you have no idea how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to food.... just as much as I don't know how it feels or what it is like to be addicted to alcohol. My speculation would be as pointless as anyone else's because I do not have a point of reference for both. I can talk somewhat about it because I have experienced part of it but if there was someone in front of me with an addiction to both, I would shut up and listen.... only talking to ask questions, if I really wanted to learn about it. I am not saying that someone who is not an expert in the subject e.g. Doctor, Addiction Counseler, etc or has experienced it (in this case, both addictions) but if you don't start with an understanding that you really have no idea what you are talking about then you are not being truthful to yourself and those reading your opinions. It is as much value as debating who the GOAT Basketball player is... you can talk about it, it may be fun to talk about it, but in the end the entire conversation is pointless because it can never be objectively ended in agreement. It is pointless but some people find it interesting to discuss and enjoy that. (And the GOAT is Jordan). I just don’t have a need to validate everyone on their opinions or feelings, even more so sense many of those opinions in this subject have caused me real harm over my life that I am just now realizing.

Again, thanks for sharing your insights. I disagree with you that it's pointless to discuss things like this in a public forum and dismiss civil people and opinions. As I said, I'd rather us encourage honest and respectful discussion where people can share their experiences.

Thank you for helping me understand your position and experience. I wish you well on this continued journey.

And to point it out again, I dismiss my own opinion on it... at least for that of comparison of food addiction to alcohol. That is likely more of a new position for me too. I mean, I lived it and didn't know it.... if you don't live it, you have no idea.

 

[Chadstroma]

I grew up in a home with no alcohol. Both my Mother and step/adopted Father were alcoholics. My biological Father was as well but I had not interaction with him growing up. My Mother being sober for my entire life. There was never any alcohol in the house and never at any holidays like Christmas or New Years etc even at my extended families houses. It was odd to me to see alcohol at a friends house.

I am pretty sure the first time my Mother had any alcohol in her house was in my early twenties I had moved back to So Cal from Nor Cal and my Mom was having some medical issues too so it made sense for me to just stay with her. I had been out of the house since 17 years of age. I, like most early twenties kids, would drink here and there. I had built up a half way decent little bar of high end Vodka, Tequila and mixers but had more than a couple of bottles of wine.

I can't tell you how many times my Mother talked to me about how I needed to be careful with alcohol since the addiction was in my genes. In my head, I dismissed her, because hey... I am a pretty strong willed person. I won't let it grab hold of me. I started drinking here and there.... and never had a problem. I don't like Beer so I pretty much stuck to mixed drinks and wine, preferring wine more and more as I got older towards my 30's.

As I mentioned, there was a time I moved back home and brought my alcohol with me. One night my Mom asked to talk to me. She was concerned with how much I was drinking which was totally unfounded but I understand her fear. She said something about the bottles that I had in my room and I had to point out to her, "Mom, most of those bottles are full and I have had them for several years, if I was an alcoholic, wouldn't they be empty?"

I have never craved a drink. Today, I don't do much drinking at all as my wife doesn't drink much at all (ever) and I am not motivated to open a whole bottle of wine for myself though I very much enjoy a good glass of wine (I think the smell of wine is perhaps as much enjoyable as drinking it to me, I love getting my nose in there and taking it in). The last drink I had was about 4 or 5 months ago at a work function and happily said "bye" to my coworkers who went out to go drink more.

Even though I grew up in AA and had my loved ones as alcoholics, I think I never realized how I kind of looked down on alcoholics.... well, really, all addicts. As I mentioned above, I had an attitude of it really being just a matter of will power and if you can't have enough will power then you are a weak person. This then carried over to my issues with weight. Sure, the foundation of it was that growing up I ate tons of food and did not really ever care what it was as I was a very active kid. A typical day being riding a bike a few miles, then playing basketball for 6 hours and if it was summer throw in some swimming or whatever else on top of playing organized baseball and basketball. Injuries and growing up deleted all of that but it didn't delete my eating habits. Over time, I gained and gained. Through the times I tried to lose weight and failed over and over it was something that I beat myself up over because I was weak willed. If I was just a stronger person, then I could keep on track and not break down. Even with all the intimate 'knowledge' of addiction it never even occurred to me that I might have a food addiction. It was simply my weak will power which I despised about myself. Not until taking that Contrave pill and literally feeling a off/on switch turned to off did I realize it was an addiction and had a glimpse into other addictions. This is why I say it is pointless for people who have not felt it to say how it feels or compare it to something else. Because you can't. I lived with it for years.... decades.... and didn't understand it. How is someone who thinks gaining 5 pounds from a vacation was crazy and they just need to buckle down for the next couple of weeks to get back to weight ever understand? They can not. I think I now have a window into other addictions as I have started to understand my own but I will freely admit that I really don't understand. Just as I would not expect an alcoholic to understand a food addiction without having felt it.

My own food addiction was not particular to a food really. Sugar is not very enticing to me. I can easily say 'no thank you' to it but some good pasta? Hamburger? Gauc and chips? A good Al Pastor burrito? That is harder for me to pass up. However, for me, it wasn't the food or the portions... it was the time. After dinner through until I went to bed (and often not being able to get to bed until I ate something) was my cravings. It didn't feel like hunger pains exactly but if I tried to will power my way through it, it would be way stronger than any hunger pains I have ever had in my life. I had to eat something. At that time, it was usually whatever was easiest which would be leftovers or something else like chips or some processed bagged food. Even though sugar was not a driver for me, I could easily hit up candy to fulfill that craving as I could some spaghetti that we had for dinner. The only time I have been successful with losing significant weight out was on a low carb diet. When I had those cravings, I would eat a ridiculous amount of pistachios, cashews or broccoli & hummus as my regular go to's. To give an idea of quantity, I would go through a Costco bag of pistachios in a couple of weeks if I didn't change it up with other stuff. That being said, those who have a sugar addiction is probably not something I can really understand. I could fill my cravings with anything healthy or unhealthy but just large quantities was the key.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Unhealthy food is everywhere. It took me many attempts to break my sugar addiction. I don’t think my sugar addiction remotely compares to alcohol or drug addiction but it is a struggle. I probably could have kicked my sugar habit years earlier if I removed it from my house but I couldn’t tell my family that all sugar had to go. That wasn’t realistic and wouldn’t have been fair to them. I just had to focus on eating better one day at a time and eventually the cravings faded.

Agreed, lots of opportunities out there. And yes, I've seen one day at a time be effective for many people.

 

[Zegras11]

and I just took my first 8 unit dose.

 

[Chadstroma]

and I just took my first 8 unit dose.

What is 8 unit dose? The doses I got for Ozempic were .5 then 1 then 2mg.