Of the players that have been on the recent Pats teams (4 Viewers)

[David Yudkin]

With the Patriots potentially on the verge of their 4th title in 7 season, which players in their reign are worthy of the HOF? (My opion included):

Bill Belichick (IN)

Tom Brady (IN)

Drew Bledsoe (While I don't think so, I think he will get some consideration based on his ranking (for now) in the Top 5-Top 15 in many passing categories)

Vinny Testaverde (Another guy with good career totals but I can't see him getting any real consideration)

Corey Dillon (Will get some consideration but probably not get serious consideration. His chances are hurt by all those years as a Bengal)

Randy Moss (IN)

Troy Brown (Not a chance, but people have debated me based on his team first philosophy and playing all facets of the game)

Adam Vinatieri (If they start adding placekickers, Vinatieri will be high on the list)

Matt Light (Way too soon to consider him)

Tedy Bruschi (A great story but I'm not sure he's a HOFer)

Lawyer Milloy (Multiple Pro Bowls but no)

Ty Law (Maybe)

Richard Seymour (Probably the best chance of any of their defensive players that have been there the entire time)

Willie McGinest (No)

Michael Vrabel (Nice career . . but the HOF?)

Rodney Harrison (His reputation won't help him, but I think he'll get some serious consideration)

Junior Seau (IN)

Asante Samuel (Way too soon to consider him)

So by my count, that's three guys that will most likely make it and only Brady as someone with multiple SB rings. There may be some others if they go on to have solid careers, but IMO for a team that has multiple titles you would think there would be some more top tier candidates.

Which of these players (or others that are not listed) will get a look as a potential HOF candidate?

 

[Workhorse]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

 

[switz]

With the Patriots potentially on the verge of their 4th title in 7 season, which players in their reign are worthy of the HOF? (My opion included):Bill Belichick (IN)Tom Brady (IN)Drew Bledsoe (While I don't think so, I think he will get some consideration based on his ranking (for now) in the Top 5-Top 15 in many passing categories)Vinny Testaverde (Another guy with good career totals but I can't see him getting any real consideration)Corey Dillon (Will get some consideration but probably not get serious consideration. His chances are hurt by all those years as a Bengal)Randy Moss (IN)Troy Brown (Not a chance, but people have debated me based on his team first philosophy and playing all facets of the game)Adam Vinatieri (If they start adding placekickers, Vinatieri will be high on the list)Matt Light (Way too soon to consider him)Tedy Bruschi (A great story but I'm not sure he's a HOFer)Lawyer Milloy (Multiple Pro Bowls but no)Ty Law (Maybe)Richard Seymour (Probably the best chance of any of their defensive players that have been there the entire time)Willie McGinest (No)Michael Vrabel (Nice career . . but the HOF?)Rodney Harrison (His reputation won't help him, but I think he'll get some serious consideration)Junior Seau (IN)Asante Samuel (Way too soon to consider him)So by my count, that's three guys that will most likely make it and only Brady as someone with multiple SB rings. There may be some others if they go on to have solid careers, but IMO for a team that has multiple titles you would think there would be some more top tier candidates.Which of these players (or others that are not listed) will get a look as a potential HOF candidate?

I think MOST of those players go in.

 

[switz]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

 

[Maroney=Speed]

Rodney Harrison- Noway He Doesn't get in. He's a lock.

 

[munga30]

Are there many Steelers with four rings not in the HOF?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Some of those guys are borderline, and would get more consideration if they had been on every Patriots championship team. I am talking about guys like Law, McGinest, and Dillon.

 

[David Yudkin]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

In one of the Brady threads I outlined some of the players the Pats have drafted. I listed 15 years back (Pioli has been around since 2000).To recap . . .Laurence Maroney RBLogan Mankins G Nick Kaczur GVince Wilfork DTBen Watson TE Ty Warren DT Asante Samuel DBDan Koppen C Dan Graham TE Deion Branch WR Jarvis Green DEDavid Givens WRRichard Seymour DT Matt Light T Tom Brady QB Michigan IMO, those are some pretty integral parts of the Patriots.

 

[David Yudkin]

Are there many Steelers with four rings not in the HOF?

HOFers from the 70s/80s Steelers . . .Mel Blount, CB (1970–1983) Terry Bradshaw, QB (1970–1983) "Mean" Joe Greene, DT (1969–1981) Jack Ham, LB (1971–1982) Franco Harris, RB (1972–1983) Jack Lambert, LB (1974–1984) Chuck Noll, Head Coach (1969–1991) Art Rooney, Founder/Owner (1933–1988) Dan Rooney, Executive (1955–present), Owner (1988–present) John Stallworth, WR (1974–1987) Lynn Swann, WR (1974–1982) Mike Webster, C (1974–1988)

 

[Workhorse]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

In one of the Brady threads I outlined some of the players the Pats have drafted. I listed 15 years back (Pioli has been around since 2000).To recap . . .Laurence Maroney RBLogan Mankins G Nick Kaczur GVince Wilfork DTBen Watson TE Ty Warren DT Asante Samuel DBDan Koppen C Dan Graham TE Deion Branch WR Jarvis Green DEDavid Givens WRRichard Seymour DT Matt Light T Tom Brady QB Michigan IMO, those are some pretty integral parts of the Patriots.

Here's the rub to me: If you take out guys like Law, McGinest, Milloy from the mix and acknowledge that some of the other guys who were key parts of SOME of the titles lose HoF potential since they weren't there for all of the titles...... Wouldn't you have to give HoF credit to the architect who replaced those parts by making the tough choices and still led the team in the salary cap era to multiple titles?To me, Pioli is a no-brainer LOCK for the Hall of Fame along with Belichick and Brady.

 

[TD Ryan]

With the Patriots potentially on the verge of their 4th title in 7 season, which players in their reign are worthy of the HOF? (My opion included):Bill Belichick (IN)Tom Brady (IN)Randy Moss (IN)Junior Seau (IN)Adam Vinatieri (If they start adding placekickers, Vinatieri will be high on the list)Richard Seymour (Probably the best chance of any of their defensive players that have been there the entire time)Rodney Harrison (His reputation won't help him, but I think he'll get some serious consideration)

Agree with your "IN" list.the other 3 are the "borderline" guys (Vinatieri, Seymour, Harrison).Will a Kicker get in? IF so, none is more deserving than Vinatieri. The only reason he isn't a guarantee is his position.As for Sey and Harrison... going undefeated and winning the SB this year will go a long way to getting them in.unfortunately, the rest of them really are guys who had nice careers but will probably only make the Patriots HOF.a guy who may one day get in after we see more of his play: Logan Mankins. He's shaping up to be a dominant lineman with a very nasty streak in him. Mankins is (IMO) the best O-lineman NE has right now.

 

[switz]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

In one of the Brady threads I outlined some of the players the Pats have drafted. I listed 15 years back (Pioli has been around since 2000).To recap . . .Laurence Maroney RBLogan Mankins G Nick Kaczur GVince Wilfork DTBen Watson TE Ty Warren DT Asante Samuel DBDan Koppen C Dan Graham TE Deion Branch WR Jarvis Green DEDavid Givens WRRichard Seymour DT Matt Light T Tom Brady QB Michigan IMO, those are some pretty integral parts of the Patriots.

So how many of those have been drafted in the past 7 years?I'll give you Seymour, Light, Mangkins, Koppen, Samuel, Watson, and Wilfork as great picks. Brady was a 6th round pick, who they almost cut, and they took him because the QB coach liked him. Pioli doesn't get credit for him.7 drafts, maybe one good player per year....

 

[Boston]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

They have had their misses but I tend to disagree with this statement. Pioli's drafts are a key core of the current team.2000-Tom Brady2001-Richard Seymour, Matt Light2002-Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, Jarvis Green, David Givens2003-Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta Cain2004-Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson2005-Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kazcur, James Sanders, Matt Cassell2006-Laurence Maroney, David Thomas, Stephen Gostkowski, Ryan O'callaghan, Willie Andrews2007-The forgotten draft...only Merriweather made team.*All three starters on D-line were drafted as were 3/4 staters in the secondary (LB is a position the Pats look for veterans due to their scheme)*6/11 starters on D were drafted as were key reserves Jarvis Green, Eugene Wilson and Brandon Merriweather*4/5 starters on O line were drafted as were key reserve Ryan O'Callaghan*7/11 starters on offense were drafted *Overall 13/22 starters on this team were obtained thru the draft as were their kicker *Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, David Givens and Tully Banta Cain all signed free agent deals with other clubs

 

[David Yudkin]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

In one of the Brady threads I outlined some of the players the Pats have drafted. I listed 15 years back (Pioli has been around since 2000).To recap . . .Laurence Maroney RBLogan Mankins G Nick Kaczur GVince Wilfork DTBen Watson TE Ty Warren DT Asante Samuel DBDan Koppen C Dan Graham TE Deion Branch WR Jarvis Green DEDavid Givens WRRichard Seymour DT Matt Light T Tom Brady QB Michigan IMO, those are some pretty integral parts of the Patriots.

So how many of those have been drafted in the past 7 years?I'll give you Seymour, Light, Mangkins, Koppen, Samuel, Watson, and Wilfork as great picks. Brady was a 6th round pick, who they almost cut, and they took him because the QB coach liked him. Pioli doesn't get credit for him.7 drafts, maybe one good player per year....

All of these players were drafted under the auspices of Pioli's watch. If you want to rifle through and tout some and ignore others, that's up to you . . .

 

[BelichicksRevenge]

Vrabel is an interesting one. I think he has been a key performer for the team and should have gone to multiple pro bowls. the lack of pro bowls will hurt him.

I think Ty Law has better than average chance

Seymour is close to a lock. Perennial pro bowler on a dynasty.

Brady a lock

Harrison could have a shot. He has some good all time numbers - most sacks all time by a defensive back, only player in NFL history to record at least 30 sacks and at least 30 interceptions in his career, lead the team in tackles the last two time the Patriots won the super bowl, High on the all time post season intercepttion list.

Pro bowl 1998, 2001. All-Pro 2003

I think an offensive lineman or two like Koppen, Light or Mankins will end up in Canton if the Patriots win a super bowl this year.

The problem with some of the Pats is that they did not have a lot of guys go to the pro bowl. I think some undeservadely so. I think Vrabel was underated for a lot of his career and is finally getting recognition now.

seau and Moss are also locks but they achieved more sccess on other teams. Dillon could have a shot as well.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

True Patriots:

BB

Brady

Players the pats have had but only for a small time of their career

Seau

RMoss

The GM Pioli probably gets in too.

Vinateri? nah

 

[switz]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

In one of the Brady threads I outlined some of the players the Pats have drafted. I listed 15 years back (Pioli has been around since 2000).To recap . . .Laurence Maroney RBLogan Mankins G Nick Kaczur GVince Wilfork DTBen Watson TE Ty Warren DT Asante Samuel DBDan Koppen C Dan Graham TE Deion Branch WR Jarvis Green DEDavid Givens WRRichard Seymour DT Matt Light T Tom Brady QB Michigan IMO, those are some pretty integral parts of the Patriots.

So how many of those have been drafted in the past 7 years?I'll give you Seymour, Light, Mangkins, Koppen, Samuel, Watson, and Wilfork as great picks. Brady was a 6th round pick, who they almost cut, and they took him because the QB coach liked him. Pioli doesn't get credit for him.7 drafts, maybe one good player per year....

All of these players were drafted under the auspices of Pioli's watch. If you want to rifle through and tout some and ignore others, that's up to you . . .

Just because he's drafted a player doesn't automatically make them good. Hence from the other poster, I count 11 starting quality players in 7 years. Is that good????

 

[Boston]

Vrabel is an interesting one. I think he has been a key performer for the team and should have gone to multiple pro bowls. the lack of pro bowls will hurt him.I think Ty Law has better than average chanceSeymour is close to a lock. Perennial pro bowler on a dynasty.Brady a lockHarrison could have a shot. He has some good all time numbers - most sacks all time by a defensive back, only player in NFL history to record at least 30 sacks and at least 30 interceptions in his career, lead the team in tackles the last two time the Patriots won the super bowl, High on the all time post season intercepttion list.Pro bowl 1998, 2001. All-Pro 2003I think an offensive lineman or two like Koppen, Light or Mankins will end up in Canton if the Patriots win a super bowl this year. The problem with some of the Pats is that they did not have a lot of guys go to the pro bowl. I think some undeservadely so. I think Vrabel was underated for a lot of his career and is finally getting recognition now.

Vrabel is a guy I definetly think is worthy although he doesn't have some of the traditional stats to back his candidacy. He has been a core member of their D for the last seven years. He has made huge plays in big games, played multiple positions, is equally adept in coverage, playing the run or rushing the QBs, he's a team leader and is a guy BB has called the most intelligent football player he has been around. He's one of the reasons the Patriots can show so many different looks on the defensive-side of the ball. In the Patriot D stats are always going to be misleading (i.e. it's not a D were stats are ever going to be big) which never helps in the area of post-season awards. Yet, Vrabel is a guy who ranks right up there with any player not named Brady as far as how valuable he has been to the run they are on. IMO he's very worthy of making the trp to Canton.

 

[TD Ryan]

Just because he's drafted a player doesn't automatically make them good.

86 - 26 since 2000 is pretty good.either their drafts have been phenomenalortheir FA signings have been phenomenal.ormaybe both have been pretty good.IMO, the worst move made by Pioli was the Beisel, C Brown, D Starks signing all in the same season.

 

[David Yudkin]

Here's the entire draft list for switz since he still persists on downgrading their draft efforts. I only listed the most notbale players.

2007

Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (FL)

Kareem Brown DT Miami (FL)

Clint Oldenburg T Colorado State

Justin Rogers LB Southern Methodist

Mike Richardson DB Notre Dame

Justise Hairston RB Central Connecticut

Corey Hilliard T Oklahoma State

Oscar Lua LB USC

Mike Elgin G Iowa

2006

Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota

Chad Jackson WR Florida

Dave Thomas TE Texas

Garrett Mills TE Tulsa

Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

Ryan O'Callaghan G California

Jeremy Mincey DE Florida

Dan Stevenson G Notre Dame

Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska

Willie Andrews DB Baylor

2005

Logan Mankins G Fresno State

Ellis Hobbs DB Iowa State

Nick Kaczur G Toledo

James Sanders DB Fresno State

Ryan Claridge LB Nevada-Las Vegas

Matt Cassel QB USC

Andy Stokes TE William Penn

2004

Vince Wilfork DT Miami (FL)

Ben Watson TE Georgia

Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State

Guss Scott DB Florida

Dexter Reid DB North Carolina

Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas

P.K. Sam WR Florida State

Christian Morton DB Illinois

2003

Ty Warren DT Texas A&M

Eugene Wilson DB Illinois

Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M

Dan Klecko DT Temple

Asante Samuel DB Central Florida

Dan Koppen C Boston College

Kliff Kingsbury QB Texas Tech

Spencer Nead TE Brigham Young

Tully Banta-Cain DE California

Ethan Kelley DT Baylor

2002

Dan Graham TE Colorado

Deion Branch WR Louisville

Rohan Davey QB Louisiana State

Jarvis Green DE Louisiana State

Antwoine Womack RB Virginia

David Givens WR Notre Dame

2001

Richard Seymour DT Georgia

Matt Light T Purdue

Brock Williams DB Notre Dame

Kenyatta Jones T South Florida

Jabari Holloway TE Notre Dame

Hakim Akbar DB Washington

Arther Love TE South Carolina State

Leonard Myers DB Miami (FL)

Owen Pochman K Brigham Young

T.J. Turner LB Michigan State

Adrian Klemm T Hawaii

J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State

Greg Robinson-Randall T Michigan State

Dave Stachelski TE Boise State

Jeff Marriott DT Missouri

Antwan Harris DB Virginia

Tom Brady QB Michigan

David Nugent DT Purdue

Casey Tisdale LB New Mexico

Patrick Pass RB Georgia

I count 23 noteworthy players or guys that have been starters or seen a lot of playing time. ANd there are numerous Pro Bowl players on that list.

 

[munga30]

Are there many Steelers with four rings not in the HOF?

HOFers from the 70s/80s Steelers . . .Mel Blount, CB (1970–1983) Terry Bradshaw, QB (1970–1983) "Mean" Joe Greene, DT (1969–1981) Jack Ham, LB (1971–1982) Franco Harris, RB (1972–1983) Jack Lambert, LB (1974–1984) Chuck Noll, Head Coach (1969–1991) Art Rooney, Founder/Owner (1933–1988) Dan Rooney, Executive (1955–present), Owner (1988–present) John Stallworth, WR (1974–1987) Lynn Swann, WR (1974–1982) Mike Webster, C (1974–1988)

I counted 23 Steelers on all four SuperBowl rosters and only 8 Patriots on three SuperBowl rosters and on this year's team.

 

[twitch]

Pioli is a GM who's got years of good work ahead of him. He's obviously done some great work for the Pats, but lets allow the man to put in 10 more years of good work before we give him Hall consideration. jmho.

Brady, Moss, Seymour, Seau and Belichick are locks, imo. Seymour is the only of these guys even the slightest bit in question, but he's been an AllPro or ProBowler for 5 of his 7 seasons, and the single dominant defensive player on a dynasty. I think he's a shoo-in, personally.

Guys like Harrision, Law, McGinest, Vinatieri, and Vrabel and even Samuel depending what he does over the next several years are all guys that will get serious consideration 10 or 15 years from now. Id throw Bruschi on that list because he's been the defensive captain for some years now, and while I hear so many people say that Brady wouldnt be as great as he is without that great defense, you'd think the guy leading that defense would then get a little respect down the road. He's made a ton of plays for NE during their playoff runs.

Like I said, years down the road, the many candidates from the many different teams will be lined up with all of their impressive resumes, their stats, their Pro Bowls, their fame, their individual accomplishments. As will the men who led a dynasty to 21 straight total wins on one occasion, 17 on another, and 19 straight regular season wins, all of which are NFL records. It will be the classic case of what most defines a player's greatness? His individual achievement or his contributions to the greatness of a team?

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Robert Kraft?

I wonder if Ty Law needs a little bit more to get in...

 

[Jason Wood]

I think you hit on them David...Tom Brady, Randy Moss and Junior Seau are 100% stone cold locks; although both Moss and Seau will get in as much if not more for what they did in other uniforms. I hear people's argument for Rodney Harrison, and he certainly would be #4 on the list; but safeties have a hard time finding their way in historically. Bill B will, of course, also be inducted.

I'm not so sure about Seymour; I would say that if Seymour gets inducted, we could be looking at a situation much like the 70s Steelers; whereby a lot of guys that would've otherwise been borderline get the nod because of their place on a dynastic team.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Belichick, Brady, and Seau are all locks.

Moss will get in if he doesn't play the rest of his career like he did in Oakland.

I think Harrison will definitely get in. Tons of big plays (sack monster), punishing hitter, and he played a huge leadership role in the Patriots dynasty.

lots of people pushing for Vinatieri but I don't think he makes it.

way too early for Seymour. He's a great player, but it doesn't show up on the stat sheet. He's also been limited by injuries lately and will need to finish the 2nd half of his career strong.

 

[SSOG]

Some of those guys are borderline, and would get more consideration if they had been on every Patriots championship team. I am talking about guys like Law, McGinest, and Dillon.

McGinest? Seriously?

Belichick, Brady, and Seau are all locks.Moss will get in if he doesn't play the rest of his career like he did in Oakland.I think Harrison will definitely get in. Tons of big plays (sack monster), punishing hitter, and he played a huge leadership role in the Patriots dynasty.lots of people pushing for Vinatieri but I don't think he makes it.way too early for Seymour. He's a great player, but it doesn't show up on the stat sheet. He's also been limited by injuries lately and will need to finish the 2nd half of his career strong.

Don't forget about Ty Law. He's one of the short list of Patriots who were ever considered the best in the league at their respective position (pretty much just Brady, Law, Seymour, Belichick, and Vinatieri). I think Law has the best chance of anyone this side of Brady/Belichick/Seymour (and Seau, of course, but he's a Charger, not a Patriot. Ditto that for Moss and the Vikings).I don't know if Harrison gets in. There's a big log jam of safeties who are all essentially identically good. It'll be difficult for any of the safeties in that group to break through.

 

[Sam Quentin]

If Ty Law doesn't get in, the voters have completely lost their minds.

Law, Harrison and Seau are locks.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I agree, and like Law's chances better than Seymour's.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I don't know if Harrison gets in. There's a big log jam of safeties who are all essentially identically good. It'll be difficult for any of the safeties in that group to break through.

I'd be interested in hearing which other safeties you have in this group with Harrison. I think there are a lot of young safeties that are starting to redefine the position (Reed, Polamalu, Sanders), but I don't think any of them come close to matching Harrison's achievements over the length of his career. He clearly stands out as the best safety of the past 10 years or so to me...and the rings help set him apart from everyone else as well.

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

umm..didn't harrison get suspended for steroids or HGH?

The way I look at it this seems to matter now in the steroid era.

Harrison is such a cheap shot artist..but hey he is good at it.

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

If Ty Law doesn't get in, the voters have completely lost their minds.Law, Harrison and Seau are locks.

Seau is a sell out.."retiring" and than signing with the Pats...please.

 

[Pat Patriot]

I agree, and like Law's chances better than Seymour's.

Seymour doesnt need stats. He has the respect of people in the know. He has 5 All Pro's. Not Pro Bowls, All Pro's. That means he has been the BEST at his position for 5 of 7 years. He's practically a lock now. Another All Pro or two and all question will be removed.He is universally considered the best defensive player on a dynasty.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think you've underestimated Law's chances and overestimated Seymour's chances.

Seymour is not on the HOF track right now. I like the '03-'04 Seymour as much as anyone, but at talking about a DE with 31 career sacks making the HOF. Chris Doleman is an 8-time Pro Bowler, 6-time All Pro, with a 21-sack season and 150 career sacks. Me thinks Seymour and his single season high of 8 sacks is a long, long, long ways off. He hasn't made the HOF yet, which just shows you how difficult it is to make it.

Considering the wealth of talented DE playing right now, Seymour would need a significant career revival to sniff the HOF.

Law, I think, with 52 INT, is on the doorstep. He's the current active leader in INTs. He's the leader in INTs by CBs that have entered the league since 1985.

 

[Workhorse]

I think you've underestimated Law's chances and overestimated Seymour's chances.Seymour is not on the HOF track right now. I like the '03-'04 Seymour as much as anyone, but at talking about a DE with 31 career sacks making the HOF. Chris Doleman is an 8-time Pro Bowler, 6-time All Pro, with a 21-sack season and 150 career sacks. Me thinks Seymour and his single season high of 8 sacks is a long, long, long ways off. He hasn't made the HOF yet, which just shows you how difficult it is to make it. Considering the wealth of talented DE playing right now, Seymour would need a significant career revival to sniff the HOF.Law, I think, with 52 INT, is on the doorstep. He's the current active leader in INTs. He's the leader in INTs by CBs that have entered the league since 1985.

C'mon Chase. Comparing Seymour to Doleman is pretty unfair. A DE in a 4-3 is allowed to roam in space in one-on-one matchups and rush the passer. A DE in a 3-4 is basically another defensive tackle with more frequent double-teams and greater responsibility against the running game. They are supposed to have 2-gap responsiblity and keep lineman off the LBs who make all the tackles. By virtue of their role, a 3-4 DE will rarely rack up big sack totals. Seymour is one of those guys who's true value and impact cannot be measured by stats. Richard Seymour, according to most scouts and people who really know the game, is not only the premier 3-4 DE in football, he's one of all-time best at that particular position. There's a reason why Belichick has broken every internal rule that the Pats have in terms of contract negotiations with Seymour. He's that important and yes, he's that good.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think you've underestimated Law's chances and overestimated Seymour's chances.Seymour is not on the HOF track right now. I like the '03-'04 Seymour as much as anyone, but :X at talking about a DE with 31 career sacks making the HOF. Chris Doleman is an 8-time Pro Bowler, 6-time All Pro, with a 21-sack season and 150 career sacks. Me thinks Seymour and his single season high of 8 sacks is a long, long, long ways off. He hasn't made the HOF yet, which just shows you how difficult it is to make it. Considering the wealth of talented DE playing right now, Seymour would need a significant career revival to sniff the HOF.Law, I think, with 52 INT, is on the doorstep. He's the current active leader in INTs. He's the leader in INTs by CBs that have entered the league since 1985.

C'mon Chase. Comparing Seymour to Doleman is pretty unfair. A DE in a 4-3 is allowed to roam in space in one-on-one matchups and rush the passer. A DE in a 3-4 is basically another defensive tackle with more frequent double-teams and greater responsibility against the running game. They are supposed to have 2-gap responsiblity and keep lineman off the LBs who make all the tackles. By virtue of their role, a 3-4 DE will rarely rack up big sack totals. Seymour is one of those guys who's true value and impact cannot be measured by stats. Richard Seymour, according to most scouts and people who really know the game, is not only the premier 3-4 DE in football, he's one of all-time best at that particular position. There's a reason why Belichick has broken every internal rule that the Pats have in terms of contract negotiations with Seymour. He's that important and yes, he's that good.

The question of whether or not Seymour will get in is different from the question should Seymour get in.With 31 career sacks, he's not going to get in. And it's not even very close. You might argue that he should get in, but unless he racks up another 70 sacks in his career, he won't make the HOF.It's also probably worth noting that the Pats didn't miss a beat without him this year.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Here's a list of DL that began their careeri in the '80s or '90s to make the HOF:

Howie Long (DE)

Reggie White (DE)

That's the entire list. Bruce Smith of course will make it next year. Then think of who else is on the list:

From the All 90s team:

DEs

Neil Smith - 104.5 sacks, 6 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Chris Doleman - 151.5 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

DTs

John Randle - 137.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 7 time all pro

Cortez Kennedy - 58 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Warren Sapp - 94.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Bryant Young - 84 sacks, 4 time pro bowler, 4 time all pro

I think Randle and Sapp are locks. Doleman might make it, but hasn't garnered support yet. Smith and Kennedy probably deserve it but won't make it.

Then you've got Jason Taylor and Strahan -- both locks. That's already four DL that will make it from this era, which is a bit more than the last. And Seymour doesn't have a big lead on lots of other DEs. By the time he's up for eligibility in 10+ years, his numbers will look very pedestrian.

 

[Anarchy99]

Here's a list of DL that began their careeri in the '80s or '90s to make the HOF:Howie Long (DE)Reggie White (DE)That's the entire list. Bruce Smith of course will make it next year. Then think of who else is on the list:From the All 90s teamEsNeil Smith - 104.5 sacks, 6 time pro bowler, 6 time all proChris Doleman - 151.5 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all proDTsJohn Randle - 137.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 7 time all proCortez Kennedy - 58 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all proWarren Sapp - 94.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 6 time all proBryant Young - 84 sacks, 4 time pro bowler, 4 time all proI think Randle and Sapp are locks. Doleman might make it, but hasn't garnered support yet. Smith and Kennedy probably deserve it but won't make it.Then you've got Jason Taylor and Strahan -- both locks. That's already four DL that will make it from this era, which is a bit more than the last. And Seymour doesn't have a big lead on lots of other DEs. By the time he's up for eligibility in 10+ years, his numbers will look very pedestrian.

I mostly agree with you Chase, but Seymour isn't done. If the Pats continue their run and say Seymour ends up with several more Pro Bowl and All Pro selections to go along with more SB rings, IMO those accomplishments may serve to offset his limited sack totals. When healthy, Seymour had been facing double teams on a regular basis (sometimes even with additional RB help).That's why I really didn't give Seymour much more than a maybe as of today. Now I can also see Seymour falling back to the pack of other DLmen given that he's been dinged up and not as effective as he's been in the past, so that also muddies the waters in evaluating him. So long story short, good start but too soon to tell.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Here's a list of DL that began their careeri in the '80s or '90s to make the HOF:Howie Long (DE)Reggie White (DE)That's the entire list. Bruce Smith of course will make it next year. Then think of who else is on the list:From the All 90s teamEsNeil Smith - 104.5 sacks, 6 time pro bowler, 6 time all proChris Doleman - 151.5 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all proDTsJohn Randle - 137.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 7 time all proCortez Kennedy - 58 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all proWarren Sapp - 94.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 6 time all proBryant Young - 84 sacks, 4 time pro bowler, 4 time all proI think Randle and Sapp are locks. Doleman might make it, but hasn't garnered support yet. Smith and Kennedy probably deserve it but won't make it.Then you've got Jason Taylor and Strahan -- both locks. That's already four DL that will make it from this era, which is a bit more than the last. And Seymour doesn't have a big lead on lots of other DEs. By the time he's up for eligibility in 10+ years, his numbers will look very pedestrian.

Everyone in this thread needs to stop getting their All Pro number from Pro Football Reference. There should be / typically are 2 All Pro D-Ends and 2 All Pro D Tackles. Many of the players above overlapped in careers so it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to get as many All Pro's as are mentioned. The AP All Pro is the source. Seymour has 4 or 5 of those. I believe some as DE and some as DT. His versatility is his strength.He is the best defensive player from probably at least a 4 SB team. I think that gets him in. Nobody is looking at sack totals to define Richard Seymour. Go ask DR. Z from SI.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Here's a list of DL that began their careeri in the '80s or '90s to make the HOF:Howie Long (DE)Reggie White (DE)That's the entire list. Bruce Smith of course will make it next year. Then think of who else is on the list:From the All 90s teamEsNeil Smith - 104.5 sacks, 6 time pro bowler, 6 time all proChris Doleman - 151.5 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all proDTsJohn Randle - 137.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 7 time all proCortez Kennedy - 58 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all proWarren Sapp - 94.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 6 time all proBryant Young - 84 sacks, 4 time pro bowler, 4 time all proI think Randle and Sapp are locks. Doleman might make it, but hasn't garnered support yet. Smith and Kennedy probably deserve it but won't make it.Then you've got Jason Taylor and Strahan -- both locks. That's already four DL that will make it from this era, which is a bit more than the last. And Seymour doesn't have a big lead on lots of other DEs. By the time he's up for eligibility in 10+ years, his numbers will look very pedestrian.

Everyone in this thread needs to stop getting their All Pro number from Pro Football Reference. There should be / typically are 2 All Pro D-Ends and 2 All Pro D Tackles. Many of the players above overlapped in careers so it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to get as many All Pro's as are mentioned. The AP All Pro is the source. Seymour has 4 or 5 of those. I believe some as DE and some as DT. His versatility is his strength.He is the best defensive player from probably at least a 4 SB team. I think that gets him in. Nobody is looking at sack totals to define Richard Seymour. Go ask DR. Z from SI.

Why do you value AP All Pros so highly?Seymour wasn't the best defensive player on the Patriots this year. He wasn't anything close, and you know that. The Patriots would be 17-0 right now if Seymour was out for the season. Seymour was a rookie and only started 10 games for the '01 team.He was a stud in '03 and '04, yes. But he wasn't in '01 or '07, and he's a loooong ways away from making it right now. What separates him from Charles Haley, who won 3 Super Bowls, was a five time Pro Bowler and 4 time All Pro, and has 100 career sacks -- and not even a whiff of the HOF.DEs aren't judged by Super Bowls or team success. Howie Long, Bruce Smith, Lee Roy Selmon, Jack Youngblood didn't win Super Bowls, and those are the most recent DEs to make the HOF outside of White. Team success only matters for QBs, and maybe a little for RBs or OL; not defensive players.(Aeneas Williams, e.g., will make the HOF.)

 

[Tau837]

I think you hit on them David...Tom Brady, Randy Moss and Junior Seau are 100% stone cold locks; although both Moss and Seau will get in as much if not more for what they did in other uniforms. I hear people's argument for Rodney Harrison, and he certainly would be #4 on the list; but safeties have a hard time finding their way in historically. Bill B will, of course, also be inducted.I'm not so sure about Seymour; I would say that if Seymour gets inducted, we could be looking at a situation much like the 70s Steelers; whereby a lot of guys that would've otherwise been borderline get the nod because of their place on a dynastic team.

Great post.I personally think Harrison deserves to make it on merit, but I'm not sure if his reputation will hurt him with voters... then again, his reputation has kept his name more visible than many other safeties that may have been worthy.Vinatieri is possibly the most overrated player ever brought up in these Shark Pool HOF discussions. Morten Andersen is much more deserving at this time, as is Jason Elam, if ever a kicker was going to be considered again.I think it is too early to seriously discuss any of the rest who still have a lot of time left (e.g., Seymour). And for the others who are older, I doubt any of them will make it (e.g., Law).

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

It's probably more appropriate to compare Seymour to DT than DEs. I think that's generally where his Pro Bowl and All Pro nominations have come from, isn't it? Given that, sacks aren't going to be the be-all and end-all for him. I realize he's been widely regarded as one of the best 2 or 3 defensive linemen in the league during most of his career, but he was outplayed by Ty Warren for most of last year and barely made an impact this year. If he were to retire after this season, I don't think he's got a shot. But, if he can avoid injury, get back to being a dominant force, and rack up a bunch more Pro Bowl and All Pro awards, then he certainly will get strong consideration.

and, Bruce Smith is easily the best 3-4 DE of all time. no doubt about that.

 

[Tau837]

Here's a list of DL that began their careeri in the '80s or '90s to make the HOF:

Howie Long (DE)

Reggie White (DE)

That's the entire list. Bruce Smith of course will make it next year. Then think of who else is on the list:

From the All 90s team:

DEs

Neil Smith - 104.5 sacks, 6 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Chris Doleman - 151.5 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

DTs

John Randle - 137.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 7 time all pro

Cortez Kennedy - 58 sacks, 8 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Warren Sapp - 94.5 sacks, 7 time pro bowler, 6 time all pro

Bryant Young - 84 sacks, 4 time pro bowler, 4 time all pro

I think Randle and Sapp are locks. Doleman might make it, but hasn't garnered support yet. Smith and Kennedy probably deserve it but won't make it.

Then you've got Jason Taylor and Strahan -- both locks. That's already four DL that will make it from this era, which is a bit more than the last. And Seymour doesn't have a big lead on lots of other DEs. By the time he's up for eligibility in 10+ years, his numbers will look very pedestrian.

Everyone in this thread needs to stop getting their All Pro number from Pro Football Reference. There should be / typically are 2 All Pro D-Ends and 2 All Pro D Tackles. Many of the players above overlapped in careers so it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to get as many All Pro's as are mentioned. The AP All Pro is the source. Seymour has 4 or 5 of those. I believe some as DE and some as DT. His versatility is his strength.He is the best defensive player from probably at least a 4 SB team. I think that gets him in. Nobody is looking at sack totals to define Richard Seymour. Go ask DR. Z from SI.

I agree with you about the PFR All Pro data. That's why I typically look at All NFL Selections:Bruce Smith - 8

John Randle - 6

Warren Sapp - 4

Michael Strahan - 4

Cortez Kennedy - 3

Jason Taylor - 3

Richard Seymour - 3

Chris Doleman - 2

Neil Smith - 1

Bryant Young - 1

Sapp, Strahan, Kennedy, and Taylor all won a DPOY award in addition to these All NFL selections. Bruce Smith won 2 DPOY awards.

At this time, IMO Seymour is not in the same class as those I listed above him. And IMO those I listed below him will not make the HOF. Seymour has more work to do.

 

[SSOG]

I don't know if Harrison gets in. There's a big log jam of safeties who are all essentially identically good. It'll be difficult for any of the safeties in that group to break through.

I'd be interested in hearing which other safeties you have in this group with Harrison. I think there are a lot of young safeties that are starting to redefine the position (Reed, Polamalu, Sanders), but I don't think any of them come close to matching Harrison's achievements over the length of his career. He clearly stands out as the best safety of the past 10 years or so to me...and the rings help set him apart from everyone else as well.

Just Win Baby has an awesome comparison of the safety logjam that I'm going to blatantly rip off, now. This was posted during the summer, so this season's results aren't included... but if anything, this season HURTS Harrison's chances thanks to the mediocre play and the steroids rap.

Steve Atwater - retired after 1999 season:

167 games

1180 tackles

5 sacks

24 interceptions

94 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

1 TDs

2 All Pro selections

8 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 14 postseason games, with a record of 10-4, including 2-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Leroy Butler - retired after 2001 season:

181 games

890 tackles

20.5 sacks

38 interceptions

130 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

10 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

4 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 10-6, including 1-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Brian Dawkins - active:

157 games

801 tackles

18 sacks

32 interceptions

146 passes defensed

26 forced fumbles

15 fumble recoveries

3 TDs (includes 1 receiving TD)

3 All Pro selections

6 Pro Bowls

His teams played 15 postseason games to date, with a record of 8-7, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Almost worthy of HOF consideration, but a bit more work to do

Rodney Harrison - active:

168 games

1075 tackles

28.5 sacks - most by a defensive back in NFL history

32 interceptions

107 passes defensed

14 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

4 TDs (including 2 kick return TDs)

2 All Pro selections

2 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 9-3, including 2-1 in Super Bowls (not counting New England's 2-1 2006 postseason, since Harrison didn't play)

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Carnell Lake - retired after 2001:

185 games

819 tackles

25 sacks

16 interceptions

101 passes defensed

15 forced fumbles

17 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

2 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 17 postseason games, with a record of 8-9, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

Ronnie Lott - retired after 1994:

192 games

1000+ tackles - can't find exact number

8.5 sacks

63 interceptions

? passes defensed - can't find data

? forced fumbles - can't find data

17 fumble recoveries

5 TDs

7 All Pro selections (2 as CB)

10 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1980s All Decade team

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 20 postseason games, with a record of 14-6, including 4-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Obviously the best of this group and a no-brainer HOF selection who was inducted in 2000

John Lynch - active:

211 games

998 tackles

12 sacks

26 interceptions

90 passes defensed

16 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

0 TDs

3 All Pro selections

7 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 6-6, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

My take: One of the weakest of this group other than in terms of longevity; not HOF worthy

Darren Sharper - active:

151 games

728 tackles

7 sacks

49 interceptions

104 passes defensed

8 forced fumbles

5 fumble recoveries

7 TDs

1 All Pro selection

3 Pro Bowls

His teams played 10 postseason games, with a record of 4-6, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Weakest of this group; not HOF worthy

Darren Woodson - retired after 2003:

178 games

940 tackles

11 sacks

23 interceptions

83 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

11 fumble recoveries

2 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 11-5, including 3-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

 

[PMENFAN]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

Only drafted Brady, built a great O line, the entire Dline is draft picks as is the entire secondary. FA's have been the LB'ers and WR's. I actually think they've been outstanding at the draft. Not just the picks, but the deals as well, often bringing more picks. Many of their players haven't made the team, but it's not like these guys are trying to get a spot on a bad team.

 

[PMENFAN]

Scott Pioli? I know you said "players" but you included Belichick too.

Pioli, while he's been excellent in bringing in FAs, hasn't had very good drafts.

In one of the Brady threads I outlined some of the players the Pats have drafted. I listed 15 years back (Pioli has been around since 2000).To recap . . .Laurence Maroney RBLogan Mankins G Nick Kaczur GVince Wilfork DTBen Watson TE Ty Warren DT Asante Samuel DBDan Koppen C Dan Graham TE Deion Branch WR Jarvis Green DEDavid Givens WRRichard Seymour DT Matt Light T Tom Brady QB Michigan IMO, those are some pretty integral parts of the Patriots.

So how many of those have been drafted in the past 7 years?I'll give you Seymour, Light, Mangkins, Koppen, Samuel, Watson, and Wilfork as great picks. Brady was a 6th round pick, who they almost cut, and they took him because the QB coach liked him. Pioli doesn't get credit for him.7 drafts, maybe one good player per year....

All of these players were drafted under the auspices of Pioli's watch. If you want to rifle through and tout some and ignore others, that's up to you . . .

Just because he's drafted a player doesn't automatically make them good. Hence from the other poster, I count 11 starting quality players in 7 years. Is that good????

Again, when you have a top caliber team, you're not going to see rookies making the team year after year. The team is already good/great. There aren't a lot of holes to fill. As for those making the HOF? I pretty much agree with the OP. I think Dillon gets a little more consideration, and is borderline. He was the hardest guy in the league to tackle for years, and put up some great games and solid seasons on a pathetic team, facing 8 8in the box. He didn't have breakaway speed, but that wasn't his game. I think Harrison is a lock also. Many of the younger players have potential, but they're so short in their time in the league, it's too tough to call. There are a lot of players under 7 years. But, back to Switz point of the drafts bad, free agency hires good. Does it matter how one builds their team at the end of the day? Isn't building the best team possible from the available resources the measuring stick? I think they've been excellent at uncovering talent in the draft, but you disagree. Could it be better, with 7 hits year after year? That doesn't happen. You say they got lucky on Brady. I dont' think anybody drafts a player in the 6th round thinking they're going to develop them into the best QB in the league, or any other position. Of course there's an element of luck involved in all picks. The player that is at 21 is not the same person at 25. They change, a lot. the other part about Pioli/BB (it's difficult to demarcate responsibility) excel is cap management. Their run has included very difficult cuts like Willie Mc, Milloy, Law, moving Branch, letting players like Andruzzi and (sorry the name escapes me, but he was the former center from BC that went to the Lions. Having a brain fart here) go in free agency. Manageing a team and keeping them at the top is difficult. Look at who they're playing in the AFCC's and SB's. Different teams over and over. Yet, he's kept their talent level at a point where they can compete year after year. Draft of FA, doesn't matter. It's his artwork.

 

[BelichicksRevenge]

DEs aren't judged by Super Bowls or team success. Howie Long, Bruce Smith, Lee Roy Selmon, Jack Youngblood didn't win Super Bowls, and those are the most recent DEs to make the HOF outside of White. Team success only matters for QBs, and maybe a little for RBs or OL; not defensive players.

Howie Long won a super bowl

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Just Win Baby has an awesome comparison of the safety logjam that I'm going to blatantly rip off, now. This was posted during the summer, so this season's results aren't included... but if anything, this season HURTS Harrison's chances thanks to the mediocre play and the steroids rap.

thanks for reposting that. I think Harrison is clearly more deserving than all of those guys that aren't in yet. Atwater, Butler, Dawkins, and Lynch are all borderline candidates. Harrison is a no-brainer for me.

 

[parrot]

If Ty Law doesn't get in, the voters have completely lost their minds.Law, Harrison and Seau are locks.

Seau is a sell out.."retiring" and than signing with the Pats...please.

Seau was traded by SD to the Dolphins, then cut by the Dolphins, and signed a one-day contract with SD so he could retire a Charger. He was a 37 year old linebacker coming off two major injuries in two years. I don't think a lot of other teams were beating a path to his door.

 

[moondog]

...I'm not so sure about Seymour; I would say that if Seymour gets inducted, we could be looking at a situation much like the 70s Steelers; whereby a lot of guys that would've otherwise been borderline get the nod because of their place on a dynastic team.

The only HOF players from the 70's Steelers that were borderline IMO are Stallworth and especially Swann. There is no way at all that Joe Green, Bradshaw, Blount, Harris, Ham , Lambert, and Webster were 'borderline'.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Just Win Baby has an awesome comparison of the safety logjam that I'm going to blatantly rip off, now. This was posted during the summer, so this season's results aren't included... but if anything, this season HURTS Harrison's chances thanks to the mediocre play and the steroids rap.

thanks for reposting that. I think Harrison is clearly more deserving than all of those guys that aren't in yet. Atwater, Butler, Dawkins, and Lynch are all borderline candidates. Harrison is a no-brainer for me.