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****OFFICIAL 2008 Washington Redskins Thread**** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DCThunder
- Start date
southeastjerome
Footballguy
I was honestly reading that last part and thinking TO too. Makes sense to me.
Bankerguy
Footballguy
Yes, I realize he is referring to Owens. The irony is.....he is calling out people who do these things as a reason for not being a starter in the ProBowl. So again two things
ortis fits the bill as being one of these players with his recent comments.-Oh...and TO didn't make the Probowlcowboymouth
Footballguy
Are the Skins mailing it in now that they are out of the playoffs, or will they show up to play the Eagles this weekend?
I'll hang up and listen...
I'll hang up and listen...
dgreen
Footballguy
How could they possibly lose this week.Do it for Sammy!
I think it will depend on how the game starts. If they fall behind early, like the past two weeks, they'll lay down, especially since the weather Sunday in DC is supposed to be pretty bad (rain/cold). If they stay even or heaven forbid, get a lead, they'll hang in for a while. The laydown game will be the finale on the road in San Francisco, especailly if they get pasted by the Iggles.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
I'll be at that SF game too. It's my brother's birthday and he lives in the area, so we're headed that way. Oh well, at least I'll enjoy time with my brother . . .DCThunder said:
cstu
Footballguy
The Redskins will NEVER be headed to 49ers type problems (financially speaking, not on the field
)
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Well that was all defense and Philly shooting themselves in the foot (not sure which was more important in determining the win). The offense is still "ugh" and can't sustain a drive for anything. They flash some decent plays every once in a while but they still can't string together a solid scoring drive.
I'm glad Atlanta won. That "glimmer of hope" would probably have ruined my Christmas if it were still alive.
I'm glad Atlanta won. That "glimmer of hope" would probably have ruined my Christmas if it were still alive.
posted this in another thread, but should have put it here.
For the record, I'm not a Jason hater, AT ALL. In fact, I don't hate on any skins player. I've loved this team since I first starting watching football in the late 70s. But Jason Campbell is clearly an average (and that's being kind) NFL QB. Each week, I continue to see other NFL QBs put up better numbers than Jason has this year.
In fact, take Jason's best statistical game this year-
23 for 28, 328 yards, 1 TD vs Lions
OR
231 Yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs vs Dallas.
Not overly impressive, no matter how much we love our QB.
Now here is a list of QBs who's best game this year surpasses Jason's best game-
Brees
Warner
Cutler
Peyton
Rivers
McNabb
Cassel
Garrard
Rodgers
Pennington
Ryan
Romo
Farve
Big Ben
Eli
Delhomme (one could argue a tie with Jason's best effort, but he had a few less yards but a 2 TD game effort)
Schaub
Collins
Orton
Flacco (again, I could argue he's tied with Jason's best effort)
Edwards
Thigpen
Garcia
Russell (ouch)
T.Jackson (ouch)
Shaun Hill (ouch)
D. Anderson
*I stopped looking after this one*
Now here's the list of starting QBs who haven't had a better game than Jason this year-
Bulger
Yep, that's it. Even Frerotte has had a superior game (300+ yards and 3 Tds in a game this year)
Tonight Jason will drop out of the top 15 in total passing yards this year. He's tied for 24th in total TDs throw. He's 14th in completion rate. He's also the 4th most sacked QB this year.
I believe the Skins HAVE to find a new starter next year. No matter how much we WANT Jason to succeed and take us to a world championship, its looking extremely unlikely that will ever happen.
I hope we draft another QB next year, give Colt a shot, and perhaps pickup a FA QB that isn't 30+ years old.
Thoughts?
For the record, I'm not a Jason hater, AT ALL. In fact, I don't hate on any skins player. I've loved this team since I first starting watching football in the late 70s. But Jason Campbell is clearly an average (and that's being kind) NFL QB. Each week, I continue to see other NFL QBs put up better numbers than Jason has this year.
In fact, take Jason's best statistical game this year-
23 for 28, 328 yards, 1 TD vs Lions
OR
231 Yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs vs Dallas.
Not overly impressive, no matter how much we love our QB.
Now here is a list of QBs who's best game this year surpasses Jason's best game-
Brees
Warner
Cutler
Peyton
Rivers
McNabb
Cassel
Garrard
Rodgers
Pennington
Ryan
Romo
Farve
Big Ben
Eli
Delhomme (one could argue a tie with Jason's best effort, but he had a few less yards but a 2 TD game effort)
Schaub
Collins
Orton
Flacco (again, I could argue he's tied with Jason's best effort)
Edwards
Thigpen
Garcia
Russell (ouch)
T.Jackson (ouch)
Shaun Hill (ouch)
D. Anderson
*I stopped looking after this one*
Now here's the list of starting QBs who haven't had a better game than Jason this year-
Bulger
Yep, that's it. Even Frerotte has had a superior game (300+ yards and 3 Tds in a game this year)
Tonight Jason will drop out of the top 15 in total passing yards this year. He's tied for 24th in total TDs throw. He's 14th in completion rate. He's also the 4th most sacked QB this year.
I believe the Skins HAVE to find a new starter next year. No matter how much we WANT Jason to succeed and take us to a world championship, its looking extremely unlikely that will ever happen.
I hope we draft another QB next year, give Colt a shot, and perhaps pickup a FA QB that isn't 30+ years old.
Thoughts?
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
If they decide to go in a different direction at QB (and, at the moment, I don't think they will) I don't think they should waste a draft pick on a QB (unless it's another late round, 2nd day pick).I say have a training camp battle between Brennan and a FA veteran to see if Brennan is ready to step up.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
Stats aren't everything. There are enough problems throughout this offense, particularly on the o-line, that Campbell should go into next year as the starter. You may be right about Campbell, but it's a bit impulsive to make such a decision based upon the information at hand, especially with a position with such a steep learning curve and such a long shelf-life.
The would-be "QB of the future" is already on the roster in Brennan if Campbell doesn't work out, but Brennan is VERY raw and needs another year on the bench anyway. Collins needs to be replaced by someone who can step in for Campbell next year and win in the West Coast Offense - Collins ' value really came from his familiarity with Saunders' system, so he should have followed Saunders to St. Louis.
The would-be "QB of the future" is already on the roster in Brennan if Campbell doesn't work out, but Brennan is VERY raw and needs another year on the bench anyway. Collins needs to be replaced by someone who can step in for Campbell next year and win in the West Coast Offense - Collins ' value really came from his familiarity with Saunders' system, so he should have followed Saunders to St. Louis.
Manster
Footballguy
i am very interested to see what Brennan can do in the NFL. loved watching him at Hawaii.
First of all, I think it is too early to give up on Campbell. It took Hasselback 3 years to master the West Coast offense. And Gibbs offense was nothing like a West Coast offense.If they think Colt has potential, they should let him battle for the back up qb spot next year. I personally have no confidence in Todd Collins outside of Saunders' system.
I heard on the radio the Redskins only have 4 draft picks next year. I know they traded their 2nd for Taylor, but I don't recall where the others went.
With a lack of draft picks, they will probably stick with Collins and Brennan as the backups. If they had more picks and they like Brennan, I think they would take another shot at a qb late in the draft. If they don't like Brennan, they may sign another veteran/journeyman backup.
TankRizzo
Footballguy
Erasmus James
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
7th rounder - who cares? The big thing was the Jason Taylor trade, but I just hope he's back and healthy next year - he showed today what he can do if that's the case.Erasmus James
I think he needs 2 or 3 years at least on the bench. I loved him here as well, but you could see from the Sugar Bowl that the speed of the game in the WAC is way behind what the SEC, let alone the NFL is.
fatness
Footballguy
I think it's pretty delusional to believe Campbell is a large part of the Redskins' problems. That's the same mistake the front office makes every offseason --- try to deal with problems by paying attention to skill players. The skill players on this team are not the problem, Campbell included. The lines are the problem.
The lines. The guts of every play on the field.
Fix this. The rest will be OK.
The lines. The guts of every play on the field.
Fix this. The rest will be OK.
dgreen
Footballguy
Agree. Go with Campbell. Don't go with Campbell. Doesn't really matter until the OL is built back up. But, I will say yesterday I think they did a nice job in pass protection. I didn't keep track, but it seemed like most of the pressure came from Campbell holding on too long or the Eagles sending the house. Campbell did a nice job on some plays getting out of the pocket and avoiding a sack. But, on other plays, he pumped and double-clutched and didn't throw the ball and was sacked. I'd say 75% of the time Campbell double-clutches, something bad happens. I thought Heyer played well on Cole. Most of Cole's pressure was when Campbell didn't get rid of the ball quickly enough or nobody was open.A lot of talk today on the radio about Campbell's future. Next year is the last year of his rookie contract. So, they asked whether he should be extended this offseason or not. Everyone said not to extend him, see what happens next year, then maybe let him walk in FA. But, I wonder if that's the right move. IF they can extend him right now for a modest salary, it might be worth it so they don't find themselves needing to make a big offer to someone next offseason. I'm not sure Campbell and his agent would do that, though. I'm sure they'll ask for a big extension now or play it out and hope for a big year next year.
TankRizzo
Footballguy
I hope they get a deal done w/ DeAngelo Hall sooner rather than later. Yesterday was also an impressive day for Landry.
As far as Campbell, I think he is part of the problem with scoring. He's not the only part, but he is definitely a part of it. I would rather they not re-sign him and let him play for the extension. If it turns into a romo situation, then so be it, I'm not feeling confident enough to want to lock in now.
As far as Campbell, I think he is part of the problem with scoring. He's not the only part, but he is definitely a part of it. I would rather they not re-sign him and let him play for the extension. If it turns into a romo situation, then so be it, I'm not feeling confident enough to want to lock in now.
I heard the talk between Riggo, Sheehan and Andy Poli on this topic this morning too. Thought some of the comments by Sheehan were interesting, as was Riggo. The bit about Campbell not having any "prescense" was most revealing and in retrospect, pretty true.They also ran through the available FA QBs this year. Nobody is a major upgrade over Campbell, so he'll be back next season. Anybody know what Matt Hasselbeck's contract status is?
TankRizzo
Footballguy
Same here. The Eagles are the Eagles, they're going to be unhappy with the outcome regardless. The Cowboys on the other hand...I don't know which would make for the better media circus, them not making the playoffs or them continuing their decade long drought of playoff wins.
TankRizzo
Footballguy
I didn't realize that there was a scenario where both could be eliminated. Interesting.
dgreen
Footballguy
He's certainly been a solid CB, but they have to be careful about how much they give him. He'll want CB1 money and I'm not sure they should pay that given his problems in the past.
Yep. He had a Tayloresque game. He made his presence known over the middle a couple times and came out of nowhere to run some ball carriers down on a couple plays. I'm pretty sure Smoot would have kept that WR out of the endzone by himself, but it was still great to see Landry come flying in and add the knockout blow.
dgreen
Footballguy
I can't believe what I'm reading here - questions about whether to root for the Cowpies? Especially given that this impacts the Skins not at all.Shameful
I'll definitely root for Philly.
dgreen
Footballguy
The Bears and Vikings also play into this.
buster c
Footballguy
I was in Cincy for the game and sat up high for the 1st quarter with my trusty Canon. Snapped wide-angle shots on just about every pass attempt - just like the coaches see. It was shocking to see actual evidence of what I have suspected all along: JC cannot process information on where to go with the ball. He just can't. So that causes him to hold the ball too long. I think it's delusional to believe he is not a problem. Look, he's had what? 40 starts? At what point do you think he'll "get it?" I defy you to show me a QB who has found success after showing so little for such an extended period of time.
The_Man
Footballguy
This is a very good question. The Ravens waited for 5 years for Kyle Boller to "get it" and he never did. Meanwhile, Flacco has "gotten it" more in less than one season than Boller ever did.I like Campbell, but all the evidence -- including last year's playoff run -- points toward him not being the solution.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
Just off the top of my head, here are three: Dan Fouts; Rich Gannon; Vinnie Testaverde. It didn't take Drew Brees 40 starts, but he was pretty awful for his first two years (in the same system) and lots of people had written him off, including his own team which drafted Rivers. Eli, this time a year ago, had some questioning whether the Giants should go in another direction at QB. Kurt Warner's another one, though his 40 starts came in a mix of the NFL, NFL Europe and the Arena league.
There are plenty of other examples of QB's who showed modest promise early on and who matured over time into good and even very good QB's as well. Kerry Collins is such an example. So are Trent Green and Matt Hasselbeck.
I'm convinced that there is no more demanding position/occupation in professional sports than playing QB in the NFL. Perhaps individual skills are more challenging here and there, but the physical, mental and emotional burden on NFL QB's is not matched anywhere else IMHO. We seem to ignore that when we talk about QB "busts", because I think some QB's just take a little longer than others. Any other position, I grant you, and 40 starts is more than enough to say definitively whether a player "has it" or doesn't, but with the QB, it's different or can be. Unfortunately, the demands of the salary cap and the win-now attitude of fans rarely affords QB's the luxury of working all the way through their learning curves. Campbell is frustrating because we still can't say definitively that he's going to ultimately be known as a good, average or bad QB, but that goes with the territory.
The bottom line is that it's not like the team is one QB away from being a Super Bowl champion. I say address the other issues and see if those improvements don't help Campbell over the hump. I suspect we haven't seen his best football yet, though I don't know exactly what that means.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
He's gotta be around here somewhere.
Bankerguy
Footballguy
Got it....I thought so.He's gotta be around here somewhere.
dgreen
Footballguy
Not that fantasy points is the best measure of "getting it", but if a QB doesn't have a top 10 fantasy season by his third season in the league, he won't have one. I believe it's something like 70% of the QBs who have at least one top 10 season do so by their third year. Again, that may say little about how good of an NFL QB he can be, but I would assume the odds are against someone being a top NFL QB if they haven't established themselves by their 4th year. The reason being is that teams generally move on to someone else by then. As we discussed, his contract has one more year. The Redskins will move on from him if he doesn't take the next step (or two) next year. Then he'll go somewhere else to likely compete for a job and eventually fade away.
Bankerguy
Footballguy
You have to ask yourself if he is in a system that would allow this? I don't. I also certainly don't think Campbell is elite, however you guys have bigger problems then Campbell.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
That I can agree with, but as you said or at least implied that may have as much to do with teams "giving up" on the player as it does with the player's own capabilities. Unfortunately the windows of opportunity that teams provide for their young QB's all too often don't much match up with the realities of the development of that position. Yes, the obvious busts like Ryan Leaf, and the obvious studs like Peyton Manning are exceptions to that, but they're also relative rarities in this discussion. Campbell will go into next year starting, and Zorn will be coaching. That's as it should be. Hopefully the O-line will be upgraded and the young WR's will have developed, and Zorn's WCO will be fully installed such that we can no longer worry about Campbell's development or lack thereof being obscured by the static around him.
I care about a 7th round pick. Sometimes a 7th round pick turns into a decent role player. Othertimes, he turns into a really good player. The more you have, the more likely you are to find a player.Mr Capicollo said:7th rounder - who cares? The big thing was the Jason Taylor trade, but I just hope he's back and healthy next year - he showed today what he can do if that's the case.TankRizzo said:Erasmus JamesMarvelous said:
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm not sure a system can change most QBs from appearing to be in the bottom third to appearing to be in the top third of the league. I think systems can help a player and can be the difference between being the 7th best QB and the 4th best QB, for example, but I don't think they can completely change the results of most QBs. For the most part, they are who they are. I think surrounding talent is 10x more important than the system.
I think Campbell should be extended. One thing the Eagles do really well is they identify and commit to players very early, before they have their break out years. So the players are already locked in when they have their breakout season.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
Statistically, there are far more UDFA's who turn into starters than there are 7th rounders who do. Honestly, trading away that pick doesn't bother me much at all. I liked the Erasmus James gamble for the price, even though it didn't end up paying off. The Taylor trade is more worrisome, especially if he retires and doesn't return, in which case what little we got out of him this year would have not remotely been worth what we gave up to get him.I care about a 7th round pick. Sometimes a 7th round pick turns into a decent role player. Othertimes, he turns into a really good player. The more you have, the more likely you are to find a player.Mr Capicollo said:7th rounder - who cares? The big thing was the Jason Taylor trade, but I just hope he's back and healthy next year - he showed today what he can do if that's the case.TankRizzo said:Erasmus JamesMarvelous said:
fatness
Footballguy
If that's correct, then it's perfectly clear who to root for: Bucs, then Eagles
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