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****OFFICIAL 2009 Off Season Washington Redskins Thread**** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ChrisCooleyFan
- Start date
One question I had: Campbell has been in 3 different offesive systems in 4 years (1 Gibbs, 2 Saunders, 1 Zorn). Have other qbs had that many different systems and gone on to become a successful quarterback?
I know counting "different" systems can be difficult. For instance, Hasselback went from Green Bay to Seattle. Both were West Coast offenses, but there may have been significant differences.
I know counting "different" systems can be difficult. For instance, Hasselback went from Green Bay to Seattle. Both were West Coast offenses, but there may have been significant differences.
T Bell
Footballguy
Both Gibbs and Saunders used the same terminology, which came from the Coryell coaching system. Saunders had an epic playbook and more of a pass-first philosophy (as long as it lasted before Gibbs took over the play calling), but it at least spoke the same language. As for your question, Warren Moon was in a few different systems; Aikman was in at least two, as was Elway. Theismann was in at least that many. Simms was in at least a couple. Favre was in Atlanta's run'n shoot for a year before being traded. That's just off the top of my head. Some pretty good guys have had to adapt. It happens.
fatness
Footballguy
I'm older than you.Riggins and Brown were likeable. Portis rubs people the wrong way. But Portis is a better back than either of them, period. He set the team rushing record behind a line that was worse than the lines Brown and Riggins ran behind. I really don't like when people mix their opinion of someone's personality with their opinion of their on-field performance. That's the reason Eddie Murray didn't win the American League MVP award the year Cal Ripkin did. Murray had the better year and was more valuable to the team. Ripkin was liked more by the fans and the press.
fatness
Footballguy
Rumor has it the Redskins have offered Burress a 1st round pick to trade himself to the Redskins.Burress cut by the Giants. The best WR we face in division is now Roy Williams.
fatness
Footballguy
Charley Taylor was absolutely great. Tremendous receiver and man could he block.
fatness
Footballguy
T Bell
Footballguy
fatness said:
I've said to my brother that to understand Clinton Portis and his sense of humor, moodiness, and mercurial nature, you have to understand that he's essentially a jazz musician in a football player's body. He's definitely unique.
fatness
Footballguy
Leftwich in for a vist. He'd be cheaper than Collins I guess. I don't know why, if they want to run a west coast offense, they'd think of bringing in Leftwich though. "Big slow delivery" doesn't seem like west coast material. But he can be a decent QB, though.
Sebowski
Footballguy
I would love to see Zorn work with Leftwich for a year while Campbell's contract is expiring. Just gives us one more option if Campbell doesn't work out this year. Leftwich has proven he can be a backup without causing any trouble, he wants to be a Redskin, our coach is a "QB guru". What's not to like? He may even decide to stay on even if you resign Campbell long term. Dump Collins, bring in Lefty. Collins is a career system backup. Leftwich at least has some upside.
So being optismistic, what are the chances that Devin Thomas or M. Kelly actually produce this year.
The only knock i seem to hear on Devin Thomas is that he is immature and has a poor work ethic.
Seems to be more of a character issue then a skill one, with a little guidance, maybe he could turn it around ?
On a side note, it was nice to see that the QB talk doesnt seem to have bothered Campbell all that much, he started hot last year, maybe he can keep up this year.
The only knock i seem to hear on Devin Thomas is that he is immature and has a poor work ethic.
Seems to be more of a character issue then a skill one, with a little guidance, maybe he could turn it around ?
On a side note, it was nice to see that the QB talk doesnt seem to have bothered Campbell all that much, he started hot last year, maybe he can keep up this year.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Mr. Optomistic here.I think everything being negatively reported about Thomas has been completely overblown. He took time to develop in college, and if he is going to be a star in the NFL it will take him time as well. I think he can be a prototypical 3rd year blowup WR. I expect him to see the field a lot this year. He will be thrown into the fire. The team has said that they expect the offense to improve and they expect it to improve on the backs of the 3 draft picks from last year. Zorn, Campbell, and the receivers all have this year to prove they are worth anything. Kelly is suppose to be amazing in practice when healthy. I do not like predicting the health of players. If healthy, the team has a lot of confidence in him. Campbell literally could not have handled this situation any better than he has. He seems to have a great head on his shoulders. He knows he has this year to make or break his career, and he is putting in all the work to make sure he makes it.
I would definately like the Redskins to bring in competition for Collins. Collins is very old and he his only success has been in Al Sauder's offense. Leftwich makes a lot of sense. Plus, he is from the DC area.I was impressed with what Zorn did with Campbell last year. The reduction in turnovers was amazing. Maybe he can work with Leftwich to speed up his delivery.
fatness
Footballguy
I think at least one of them will produce, and more than likely it'll be Thomas even though I think Kelly would be the better WR. I just think Kelly's injuries will keep him off the field. Thomas isn't the first rookie who's been called immature and who's supposedly had trouble with learning plays, being in shape, etc. He wouldn't be the first to leave that rep behind, either. Supposedly he was at the offseason workouts early this year, recognizing what he needed to do.
Yeah, I saw that report too. I saw somehwere else on this forum someone was saying Desean Jackson will never get better because of immaturity. Its something they will learn, after all, these are college kids who just got big money, a little iresponsible behavior or attiutude isnt compeltely unexpected. He was a top rated WR, itd be nice to see the Redskins get a dominant WR one of these days.
money.never.sleeps
Footballguy
How would you classify/analyze Campbell's arm? 
PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
Campbell most definitely has a good arm! he can make all the throws. Which is why i think he can be good with a little experience.How would you classify/analyze Campbell's arm?
After seeing him do that, I might take him number one overall.Campbell most definitely has a good arm! he can make all the throws. Which is why i think he can be good with a little experience.How would you classify/analyze Campbell's arm?
T Bell
Footballguy
Campbell's throwing strength is excellent. He can make every throw on the field. That's not his problem at all.He needs to make quicker decisions, and take some more risks. Remember, he spent the first three years under Gibbs who is a huge advocate of, to borrow a line from the Hippocratic Oath, "first do no harm". In other words, the cardinal sin is throwing INT's. This is why Gibbs has always preferred veteran QB's, and it's why Gibbs ultimately undermined Saunders' control of the offense by insisting upon going back to a more conservative, run-based approach in 2007.How would you classify/analyze Campbell's arm?
The WCO, even though Washington's version under Zorn still most certainly prides itself on more of a power running game than Walsh's version did*(see note below), still more willingly throws on first down and in other more traditional running situations. It also requires more reads be made by Campbell which is classic WCO in that it tends to succeed or fail primarily based upon the QB being able to read and react to the entire field, often with five different receivers running routes. WCO just doesn't work well with a mediocre QB.
Gibbs system, by contrast, had a less complex route tree, which happens to be why Gibbs was able to get more from less talented QB's, including Super Bowls won by Theisman, Williams and Rypien, albeit during a less pass-heavy era. It's still to be determined where exactly Campbell's ceiling is in this regard.
As a result, Campbell has at times checked down even when he shouldn't, typically on deep routes with Moss in single coverage, for example. Zorn is trying to teach him when certain risks are worth taking, and this requires bucking Gibbs' admonitions about avoiding turnovers at all costs.
That's my take on what's going on, anyway.
*Of note, while the passing game and terminology were installed by Zorn, the running part of the playbook, including the terminology, was retained by Zorn from the Gibbs playbook and is taught by Bugel, and Gibbs disciple.
EDIT - this video shows a couple of big throws and the nfl.com breakdown shows why some of us are still believers in Campbell's ability to continue to develop.
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buster c
Footballguy
I really don't like when people mix their opinion of someone's personality with their opinion of their on-field performance either. Where was that done?
fatness
Footballguy
His arm is very good. Steve Czaban says continually that there are 2 types of throws he's hesitant to make and doesn't make well. I don't remember what those throws are but someone else here might.How would you classify/analyze Campbell's arm?
fatness
Footballguy
I think over half of the media criticism of Portis and fan criticism of Portis (when compared to other Redskin backs through history) is based on dislike of his show-biz-type personality rather than his actual performance. I've thought that for a couple years now. Imagine Portis running behind the same line Riggins ran behind, on the same team Riggins played on. That was a steamroller line that won games by itself.Now imagine Riggins running behind last year's O-line.I really don't like when people mix their opinion of someone's personality with their opinion of their on-field performance either. Where was that done?
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T Bell
Footballguy
I love Riggo as the symbol of the early 80's Redskins and for his clutch Super Bowl run, toughness and showmanship. That said, he's overrated as a RB. It's not that he sucked or something, but while definitely a tough workhorse his legacy was built by Joe Gibbs and the offensive line far more than the other way around. He was actually quite limited in terms of what he could bring. Portis is a far more versatile and explosive runner.I think over half of the media criticism of Portis and fan criticism of Portis (when compared to other Redskin backs through history) is based on dislike of his show-biz-type personality rather than his actual performance. I've thought that for a couple years now. Imagine Portis running behind the same line Riggins ran behind, on the same team Riggins played on. That was a steamroller line that won games by itself.Now imagine Riggins running behind last year's O-line.I really don't like when people mix their opinion of someone's personality with their opinion of their on-field performance either. Where was that done?
fatness
Footballguy
Is it just me struggling with a new website layout, or has the Washington Times done away with the Redskin 360 blog by Ryan O'Halloran and David Elfin?
Washington Times football section
Washington Times football section
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
buster c
Footballguy
bell: horrible post - maybe your worst ever. I'm guessing you are giving credence to John Riggins' general self-effacing nature when he talks about his career. limited? let's go to Texas Stadium, (pre-hogs) 1979, where Riggo goes 66 on an end-run for a TD. turned the corner and SMOKED the entire dallas D with SPEED. huge EXPLOSIVE play. maybe you missed that. we're still waiting for a similar EXPLOSIVE signature TD run from CP.the only place where Riggins is overrated is within Redskin Nation. otherwise, he is underrated.I love Riggo as the symbol of the early 80's Redskins and for his clutch Super Bowl run, toughness and showmanship. That said, he's overrated as a RB. It's not that he sucked or something, but while definitely a tough workhorse his legacy was built by Joe Gibbs and the offensive line far more than the other way around. He was actually quite limited in terms of what he could bring. Portis is a far more versatile and explosive runner.I think over half of the media criticism of Portis and fan criticism of Portis (when compared to other Redskin backs through history) is based on dislike of his show-biz-type personality rather than his actual performance. I've thought that for a couple years now. Imagine Portis running behind the same line Riggins ran behind, on the same team Riggins played on. That was a steamroller line that won games by itself.Now imagine Riggins running behind last year's O-line.I really don't like when people mix their opinion of someone's personality with their opinion of their on-field performance either. Where was that done?
Dexter Manley
Footballguy
Skins sign LB Robert Thomas.
http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Redsk...Corps_33456.jsp
He can play all 3 LB spots, so he's got versatility. Looks like it will now be a 3 way battle at SAM between Thomas, Blades, and Fincher.
http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Redsk...Corps_33456.jsp
He can play all 3 LB spots, so he's got versatility. Looks like it will now be a 3 way battle at SAM between Thomas, Blades, and Fincher.
T Bell
Footballguy
I was wondering when they were going to pick up a veteran LB to play the Sam, like they did with Godfrey a couple of years ago when Washington was hurt. They needed it.
nittanylion
Footballguy
Met Jason LaCanfora last night. One of my partner's and I had just finished pitching a Catering Proposal to a Client for an event in May, and decided to swing by our buddy's Sports Bar in Bethesda, MD for a few pops. VERY quiet night, just some locals we know and a pack of Cougars. Pretty sure JLC had been at the Caps Game, prior. He walked in by himself, grabbed a seat at the bar, and ordered up a frosty mug. When an appropriate opportunity presented itself, I approached him and introduced myself. Complimented him on his blog, told him about FBG's, NFLDraftGuys and promised to e-mail him a link to the Site. He seemed interested. Thanked him for giving Fans some doses of reality behind the Daniel and Vinny propaganda machine, and commented about how Vinny now refuses to speak to him.
He laughed, and commented that if Vinny Cerrato liked him, he wouldn't consider himself doing a good job being the 'skins beat reporter.
A chick showed up to join him for some eats, and I thanked him for his time, and respectfully withdrew. They hung out for an hour or so, and said goodbye on their way out.
Seems like a pretty cool fella, and I'm looking forward to possibly corresponding with him, and perhaps getting him involved in our Community here. I was surprised that he's a short guy, maybe 5'6" or so...thought he would have been taller.
He laughed, and commented that if Vinny Cerrato liked him, he wouldn't consider himself doing a good job being the 'skins beat reporter.
A chick showed up to join him for some eats, and I thanked him for his time, and respectfully withdrew. They hung out for an hour or so, and said goodbye on their way out.
Seems like a pretty cool fella, and I'm looking forward to possibly corresponding with him, and perhaps getting him involved in our Community here. I was surprised that he's a short guy, maybe 5'6" or so...thought he would have been taller.
T Bell
Footballguy
If you're gonna cover Dan Snyder you gotta get into the dude's pelt and crawl around for a few days.
dgreen
Footballguy
Hey, Jason, YOU SUCK!!!!
buster c
Footballguy
I never met the dude, but had occasion to exchange a few emails with him about a year ago - he had mentioned in a blog post that he was selling his home in Shirlington and my wife and I checked out his open house. Very friendly, very cool.And his blog seeks the truth, which I appreciate. Some folks don't like that. They likely prefer trained parrots like Larry Michael
fatness
Footballguy
I agree with both you guys. Any local sports reporting worth its salt makes home teams uncomfortable some of the time. JLC does that, without being on any kind of vendetta. I look forward to reading what he writes.And his blog seeks the truth, which I appreciate. Some folks don't like that. They likely prefer trained parrots like Larry Michael
It would be nice to see LaCanfora start posting here. It's a lot more sane and knowledgeable here than at Extremeskins. Wonder what his board name will be?
dgreen
Footballguy
Whatever it would be, I'm sure he'd misspell it.
nittanylion
Footballguy
dgreen, you sound somewhat 'disenchanted' with JLC...if you don't mind sharing, I'm interested in knowing where you're coming from, because guys like him, who take the time to dig out the real story behind the constant stream of crap we're all fed by the Company Line, are the goods in my book.Although I absolutely CANNOT STAND the Washington Post as a newspaper (their slant and spin is quite the opposite of mine), JLC is one of their few bright spots, IMO. Not every NFL City has a beat reporter in what's considered the area's leading newspaper, who brings the real story to his coverage and his blog, and isn't just another Paid Mouthpiece of the Owner.I'm an old man, by board standards - I sat in the stands and eyewitnessed most of the home games during the lean 70's and the Golden Years of Gibbs One, and still fondly remember how well the Team was run under The Squire, and how dedicated he was, and conscious of his accountability towards...THE FANS. I take great offense, as a Season Ticket holder, over the actions of the Snyder Ownership Group since they purchased the Redskins. He and his associates and their meddling ways have humiliated our once-proud franchise many times over. Larry Michael is quite possibly one of the most detestable human beings existing within a 10-mile radius of our Nation's Capital for his shameless, bought-and-paid-for 'shilling' of 'skins-related propaganda...and to add insult to injury, the man has absolutly NO SHAME for what he'd doing.With the Snyder-driven deception machine blowing in full effect pretty much constantly, we need an ARMY of Jason LaCanfora's to help us support the reality behind the perception, and most importantly, hold the Owner accountable for his constant mis-steps.I pray for the day that Jason, and others like him, unearth the kind of scandal that would either force the firing of Vinny Cerrato, force Snyder to abdicate Ownership of the Team, in the face of some public-relations nightmare.Quite honestly, I pray for that more than I pray for another SuperBowl Victory.The more dispersion anyone can cast on the duo of bumbling idiots who Own/Run our Team, the better, as far as I'm concerned. If JLC is leading the charge, then I'm right on his hip bearing the standard.I'd be hard-pressed to find any reason to dislike JLC, so I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of folks on the opposite side of the fence, if there are any.
T Bell
Footballguy
I too am a La Canfora fan and after a decade of searching for one, can't find a good reason to defend Snyder and his lackeys any longer.
Sebowski
Footballguy
If I had to pick a side, I'd take JLC's, but I get the haters point of view. He does seem to take a lot of potshots at the team. He brings up things out of context to take jabs at times. Most of those things are in his blog though, so that is fine with me. I think he stays objective for the most oart in columns.
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
I don't really have a problem with JLC trying to shine a light on the "truth" around the top of the organization in principle/practice/theory/whatever. But there is obviously bad blood between him and the team, he's apparently taken it personally and he (along with most of the other 'Skins writers, it seems) has ended up taking undue shots at and making making unnecessary insinuations regarding the players and coaches because of it. His despise for management has colored the way he sees and reports everything within the team. That's poor journalism, IMO, and makes it very hard to tell what is the truth in his reports and what is his own, biased, anti-Snyder/Cerrato opinion. Anymore, it seems he writes strictly to show ownership/management in a bad light as opposed to just reporting what is going on with the team. The latest egregious example of this was him not knowing Devin Thomas had been at Redskins Park all offseason. It's inexcusable for a beat writer to not have a clue about who's been on campus recently and who hasn't. How am I supposed to believe anything else he writes about the team when he is incapable of keeping tabs on something as simple as that?I get the dream of seeing Snyder replaced and getting some ownership and management that really knows how to organize and run a successful (on the field) NFL team, because it's one of my dreams, too. I just find it very hard to believe that could ever come from JLC. Woodward and Bernstein he is not.Also, I've seen you (nittanylion) compare him to Larry Michael, it seems a couple times now. I'm not sure how relevant that is considering who pays each of their paychecks. Is there someone not employed by the Redskins that you think JLC is head-and-shoulders above in terms of accurate and responsible journalism?T Bell said:nittanylion said:I too am a La Canfora fan and after a decade of searching for one, can't find a good reason to defend Snyder and his lackeys any longer.
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fatness
Footballguy
Here's an easier way to ask: who do you (anyone) think is as good or better at covering the Redskins as LaCanfora?The Washington Times guys (David Elfin and Ryan O'Halloran) are not. Their writing about the Skins is skimpy and infrequent. I enjoy them, don't get me wrong, and I don't think they're homers either. I even wade through the abominable Washington Times website to read them. (And that is a crappy website on an even crappier newspaper, one that's wildly inaccurate and pushes a point of view at the expense of actual reporting --- anybody remember their "Nuclear Weapons Found In Iraq" story?). But Elfin and O'Halloran aren't like that. They're reporters, they do a decent job. But neither one of them has the contacts or does as good as a job as LaCanfora. And I don't find that he particularly pushes a point of view, other than one of honestly-developed disgust with the team owner and racketball partner.
I think the main objection to JLC is that he's not a homer.
And to mention one detail, the one about Devin Thomas being here and practicing and JLC not knowing it: if you read his blog every day you'll remember there were 2-3 weeks he (JLC) took off around that time. That may have had something to do with it, or he may just have been lazy that time.
There's nobody else around here who covers the Redskins as well.
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T Bell
Footballguy
Again, I agree. I think JLC is by far the best among even the beat writers and local bloggers (like Keim) at consistently gathering updated information about the team. Keim, when he writes, is just as good, but he's not nearly as consistent in updating his content. Even Woody doesn't update as often as JLC does, and I think the depth and quality of Woody's reporting has fallen off (he was the best 5-10 years ago). It's disingenuous to try to flog JLC over a missed story here or there - every reporter will have that happen to them from time to time, and in JLC's case I get the impression that the team, if it has the choice, will try to feed information elsewhere.
In addition, JLC's analytical writing has improved. I thought that the stuff he did right at the end of last season this past January, outlining in particular how much the team's drafting differed from that of more successful teams in restocking talent, was superb.
While I would certainly say that JLC has a critical eye towards the team, I don't believe that he's "biased" or has an axe to grind. It's his job to investigate statements made by the team and to see if they have substance to them, and God knows that there's ample reason to be skeptical about statements from the team after 10 years of Snyder.
fatness
Footballguy
Glad you mentioned that, I had forgotten it. That was some good reporting.
nittanylion
Footballguy
Just posted in the 'Shopping Roscoe Parrish' Thread. I wouldn't mind adding a talented Punt Returner to the Team to replace Randle-El, retire Thrash, and keep Santana healthy- and while he's not adding a dimension of height to the WR Corps, I'd take afterburner-caliber speed to help SMoss open up the underneath stuff. He's better right now than anything they have on the roster behind SMoss and Randle-El, in terms of what he's accomplished in his brief career. God how we need height, but if I can't have height, I'd gladly take speed. He doesn't seem to have a high 'tool factor' either, which is nice...
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Personally, I don't think there is anyone covering the 'Skins that is really good. The best thing JLC and/or the Redskins Insider has going for them is the frequency of their posts, and that's about the only reason I read them. But "most content" is not synonymous with "good, accurate journalism". It's a smaller piece of a much larger whole.T Bell mentioned the names Keim and Woody and I don't think I'm familiar with them. Can anyone post a link for them?
Personally, I've probably enjoyed Terl's blog more than anything else this offseason for the simple fact that he gives his readers a feel for who the players are and what they're doing during the offseason. He allows us to get to know the players on a personal level which is big for an out of town fan like myself. Granted, he's a Redskins employee and not a journalist by trade (I don't think) so he won't be doing any "hard-hitting exposes", so he's far from a perfect reporting source for the team, but he has access, people are willing to talk to him and he seems willing to go to people to find out what is going on.
Back to JLC, you say "It's his job to investigate statements made by the team and to see if they have substance to them...". That's true, but should only be a part of his job. Instead of sitting back just reacting to statements made by the team he should be actively talking to players, coaches and FO personnel to inform the readers of what is going on with team (and "the team" <> Snyderatto; there are scores of other people that are employed by the team; what's going on with them?). I don't get the feeling he does very much of that (outside of reacting to statements), and if he does why isn't his writing reflecting that?
You and fatness got on the Devin Thomas example, but it's just that, an example. It's not like things like that haven't happened before, regularly. If you want another recent example, how about his assessment of the SLB position a week or two ago. How in the world can he get away with talking in suppositions and generalities about whether or not anyone can know if Blades can handle the SLB position when he actually played the SLB position in the 'Skins system for 5+ games last year?
Whether it's laziness, indifference, his personal feelings toward people within the organization, or some combination of those and other reasons, I have no faith in JLC's ability to be an accurate and unbiased source. Will he get it right sometimes? Sure, I don't doubt he can, has or will. But he hasn't enough such that I have to second guess everything he writes. That's more than enough for me to say he's not a "good" Redskins beat writer. He may be "the best", but the competition isn't very stiff.
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dgreen
Footballguy
The two best things about JLC are the frequency of his posts and his contacts. But, neither of those take particular skill. He has connections because of his position, not because of any skill of his own. Anyone who has ever held that position for the WaPo has been fed info. So, he's a good source for info, but I don't think he does a whole lot with that info. I think his analysis can be pretty poor and he's not exactly a fount of football knowledge.
And my comment about him misspelling his name is based on how horrendous his blog used to be to read. Grammar and spelling used to be absolutely horrible. It was pretty sad that a professional journalist would actually have posts like that. But, he has improved. Maybe he finally decided to actually pay attention to those red and green lines underneath half his words.
And my comment about him misspelling his name is based on how horrendous his blog used to be to read. Grammar and spelling used to be absolutely horrible. It was pretty sad that a professional journalist would actually have posts like that. But, he has improved. Maybe he finally decided to actually pay attention to those red and green lines underneath half his words.
buster c
Footballguy
NL:You present a good case for a Parrish acquisition. Looks like the general consensus is that a 4th rounder could net him. The boy king and
would figure out a way to overpay.Alternatively, what I'd like to see is for the Skins to use their best PR. I longed for more of #28, back in the day. He could have been the best ever. Now, we've got #89 Moss, who looks to be a natural. I know, I know...injury worries. But wtf are we saving him for? He won the Lion game last year. If he gets hurt -hell, even if he doesn't- time to see what 11 & 12 can do.
Finally, if we don't see the wildcat with Randall-El several times per game this year, then Zorn deserves the fate that his inevitable 6-10 season will bring
Sidewinder16
Footballguy
Meh. If Zorn truly believes we have the right personnel to pull something like that off (and given his recent PR woes and general lack of YAC ability I'm not convinced ARE = the right personnel), then fine, give it a whirl. But if he does it just to join in on the latest fad, then I'd rather never see it attempted.Teams have been winning Super Bowls for years without it. I see no compelling evidence to suggest you can't win in today's NFL without it. Honest questions: How often did Pittsburgh or Arizona run it last year? Which '08 playoff teams used it consistently?
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