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***OFFICIAL*** 2013 MINNESOTA VIKINGS SEASON THREAD (1 Viewer)

Well, you have to admit having Harrison Smith in the secondary, Ponder out as QB, and Fusco replaced at OG makes Frazier look a heck of a lot smarter. I really don't care about the sideline emotions. He's a Tony Dungy disciple, and I sort of like the silent intense look on a coach. Much better than the childlike antics of Carroll and Harbaugh. To me the biggest red flag re: Frazier is his willingness to go down on a sinking ship with underperforming players. We'd never have seen anything of Audie Cole if we hadn't run into Henderson injury. Patterson given limited plays, OL having no consequence for atrocious play, Xavier being limited in favor of Josh Robinson the 1st half of 2013. There is something lacking if guys capable of impacting game day are not being given opportunity. We saw that somewhat with Jarius Wright in 2012.

 
BigJim® said:
Well, you have to admit having Harrison Smith in the secondary, Ponder out as QB, and Fusco replaced at OG makes Frazier look a heck of a lot smarter. I really don't care about the sideline emotions. He's a Tony Dungy disciple, and I sort of like the silent intense look on a coach. Much better than the childlike antics of Carroll and Harbaugh. To me the biggest red flag re: Frazier is his willingness to go down on a sinking ship with underperforming players. We'd never have seen anything of Audie Cole if we hadn't run into Henderson injury. Patterson given limited plays, OL having no consequence for atrocious play, Xavier being limited in favor of Josh Robinson the 1st half of 2013. There is something lacking if guys capable of impacting game day are not being given opportunity. We saw that somewhat with Jarius Wright in 2012.
I disagree. It is a game of inches and there is fine line between being a good and a average team. The Seahawks secondary is the one of the most aggressive in the league. They will straddle the line between legal and illegal coverage. Anything to gain the advantage. Even as aggressive as they are, Carroll wants his D to be more aggessive. The D has in some respects taken on the personality of their coach.

It really bothered me that when the Vikings got shut down by the Bills in the preseason. Frazier did not like that the Bills used "exotic blitz packages". I thought that was a huge red flag for Frazier. You would think that a former D-coordinator would know how to counter an aggressive blitz packages but he had no answers. I really think the Vikings D resembles Frazier style of coaching. Straight forward ie no great strategy and the object is to over power your opponents. The defense is passive in all other aspects. It's all read and react. Is it any wonder that are secondary is continually getting torched?

Arguing after calls, is also a competitive advantage. I recall the San Francisco game last year, when Harbaugh had the replacement officials so scared senseless of his incessant whinning that gave him a challenge even though he had no timeouts left. Whatever works.

 
Just a heads up to Viking fans that are like me and haven't seen Derek Carr play.. Fresno st is up against USC tomorrow afternoon. :popcorn:

 
Well, you have to admit having Harrison Smith in the secondary, Ponder out as QB, and Fusco replaced at OG makes Frazier look a heck of a lot smarter. I really don't care about the sideline emotions. He's a Tony Dungy disciple, and I sort of like the silent intense look on a coach. Much better than the childlike antics of Carroll and Harbaugh. To me the biggest red flag re: Frazier is his willingness to go down on a sinking ship with underperforming players. We'd never have seen anything of Audie Cole if we hadn't run into Henderson injury. Patterson given limited plays, OL having no consequence for atrocious play, Xavier being limited in favor of Josh Robinson the 1st half of 2013. There is something lacking if guys capable of impacting game day are not being given opportunity. We saw that somewhat with Jarius Wright in 2012.
This seems to be something he learned from Childress. Remember that idiot used to take Peterson and Harvin out of most red zone situations. Trying to be too cute ends up hurting the team overall. Not to mention clock management. I don't care what anyone says about it not hurting them but instances where you are calling timeouts for the opposition on a game winning drive is unacceptable.

 
Just a heads up to Viking fans that are like me and haven't seen Derek Carr play.. Fresno st is up against USC tomorrow afternoon. :popcorn:
I will be watching Carr today. I know he has a tremendous arm but I would like to see some poise in the pocket. He has been trained to get the ball out fast in the Fresno offense. I want to see if he can adjust his game against a better or more aggressive defense.

 
Carr looks like someone I'd be happy to let another team draft.
Feeling the same way.. Hard to judge him on one game, but USC has him flustered and making bad decisions.. One I recall was 3rd and 5. He got rushed and rolled out.. The closet defender in front of him was at least 10 yards away and yet he tried to force it into coverage and they ended up punting.

As the announcers said, this is the best defense he has faced all year and, IMO, it shows.. :mellow:

 
What's wrong with Carr?
I just have visions of David Carr 2.0 in my head. Look at a scouting report of both side by side and they are basically identical. Strong arm, smart, accurate, athletic, Senior leadership, pro-style offense ready and so on. Also take into account they play in a conference that plays no Defense. Alot of people say Houston wrecked David Carr by throwing him in behind a terrible line too early but that is exactly what we would do to Derek Carr. Manziel to me is just "must see tv" and would bring a little attitude and fire to Minnesota that I think this team needs badly. Game planning against Peterson, Patterson, and Manziel I think would be a nightmare for opposing coaches. The floor for Manziel is Russell Wilson and the ceiling is Fran Tarkenton. I truly believe this the more I watch him play.
I'm with you on Manziel. I'm driving that bandwagon.

But I think Carr would be a better than ok consolation prize.
Today's game was pretty much what I expected from Carr playing against a decent defense. He was flustered and overthrowing guys and USC ate up alot of those dump offs and bubble screens that he has used to gain alot of his inflated stats on throughout the year. He made some nice throws and maybe just had a bad game so dont want to be too hard on him but this game pretty much solidified in my mind that he is nowhere near a top 10 pick. I am thinking late 1st or early 2nd with some upside but not near a franchise QB worthy of a high 1st round pick.

 
and that should answer any underlining question whether Frazier's job is safe or not.. 42-14 and it wasn't even that close. It is time to wave :bye: to him and the entire coaching staff and look for a new direction that includes getting rid of the Tampa 2.

So now we need to decide on a QB.. At this point I don't see any way they don't draft a QB with their 1st round pick..

I know it was only one game, but I just didn't care for the poise and decision making I saw from Carr when he was under pressure yesterday..

So that leaves us Bortles or Manziel..

Since I haven't seen Bortles in action I have hard time giving any thoughts on him.. But I think Manziel would add that extra "something" the offense needs. I just keep thinking Patterson, Peterson & Manziel equals :excited:

:popcorn:

 
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I usually watch the Bowl games as "background" noise.. I mean come on, I'm a Gopher fan, so the best we get are a mid-bowl game.. <_<

But I will be watching these two games this year with full attention..

Chick-fil-A BOWL
Dec. 31, 2013 | 8:00 PM ET
ATLANTA, GA

Duke vs.Texas A&M

TOSTITOS FIESTA BOWL
Jan. 1, 2014 | 8:30 PM ET

UCF vs. Baylor

I don't recall being this :excited: to see the Bowl games as I am this year.

:popcorn:

 
I know it would be a reach, and Fraizer probably wouldn't take it.. But I wouldn't mind the new coach bringing Frazier back as the Defensive Coordinator.. The team never gave up ( other then the ugly loss at CIncy).. But IMO, he just doesn't "have it" to be a head coach.. It would be a feel good measure for team players like ADP that want him back. :shrug:

On another note.. Was great to see Jared have a good last game for the Vikes as I don't see him coming back.. During the pre-game it was mentioned that he doesn't know his plans right now, but he would love to play for a team that has a chance to make the SuperBowl.. Vikings are at least 2 years away from sniffing it so I don't see him resigning.

Biggest lost, IMO, for the DL is Williams.. Doesn't sound like he'll be back either. :(

 
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.... But I wouldn't mind the new coach bringing Frazier back as the Defensive Coordinator.... :(
No way. This defense has given up more than 30 point in almost every game. Frazier inherited decent talent on D and its been in decline since he took over.

 
Donnybrook said:
snogger said:
.... But I wouldn't mind the new coach bringing Frazier back as the Defensive Coordinator.... :(
No way. This defense has given up more than 30 point in almost every game. Frazier inherited decent talent on D and its been in decline since he took over.
:shrug: Just think if Frazier was able to spend 100% of his time as a Defensive Coordiantor he could improve it. Only thing is I think he is "in love" with the Tampa 2 and it has seen it's better days and needs to go.

My bigest beef with the coordinators, and that falls on Farizer, was no Halftime adjustments. Both coordinators had game plans and it never seems to matter if that game plan was working or not, they stayed with it even after half time.

 
So pretty much locked into the 8th pick?
Yup.

1. Houston Texans (2-14)

2. St. Louis Rams (from 3-13 Washington Redskins)

3. Jacksonville Jaguars (4-12)

4. Cleveland Browns (4-12)

5. Oakland Raiders (4-12)

6. Atlanta Falcons (4-12)

7. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (4-12)

8. Minnesota Vikings (5-10-1)

At least 4 need QBs. And that's if you think Bradford and Glennon are the answers in STL and TB. Only ATL is set at QB. Those late season wins are really going to screw us.

 
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So pretty much locked into the 8th pick?
Yup.

1. Houston Texans (2-14)

2. St. Louis Rams (from 3-13 Washington Redskins)

3. Jacksonville Jaguars (4-12)

4. Cleveland Browns (4-12)

5. Oakland Raiders (4-12)

6. Atlanta Falcons (4-12)

7. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (4-12)

8. Minnesota Vikings (5-10-1)



At least 4 need QBs. And that's if you think Bradford and Glennon are the answers in STL and TB. Only ATL is set at QB. Those late season wins are really going to screw us.
Oak won't take a QB in the first.
 
Meh, seems like something had to be done. That said, got to say Spielman's quote about the team having no consistency (seeming to point the finger at Frazier) seems more an indictment against his own QB choices. And now we are left with Spielman choosing the next QB, and the next coach to be shackled with said QB.

 
I'll be happy when I see Spielman get his walking papers, along with Musgrave and whoever is the Defensive Coordinator. You know who I really like? The special teams coach. I saw him about wanna kill someone yesterday in an offsides call on that field goal attempt.

 
For those of you who are hating on Spielman, you should read this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesotavikings/comments/1u01hr/the_case_for_rick_spielman/

It's a nice breakdown of his pros/cons. Biggest con obviously is QB, but he has been a top 10 GM when it comes to draft and talent other than that. His job is safe and it shouldn't even be a question.

As far as QB goes, I'm pretty sure that any new head coach will have a say in who gets drafted or brought in via FA (including whether to resign Cassel/Freeman).

 
That link doesn't work for me but I can't imagine how it can rank him as a top 10 GM.

He's failed to get talent on defense outside of the front four, has failed to get a QB, and has failed at finding talent later in the draft from which to develop depth.

His home runs have been deep shots but his batting average is in the low .200's.

 
For those of you who are hating on Spielman, you should read this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesotavikings/comments/1u01hr/the_case_for_rick_spielman/

It's a nice breakdown of his pros/cons. Biggest con obviously is QB, but he has been a top 10 GM when it comes to draft and talent other than that. His job is safe and it shouldn't even be a question.

As far as QB goes, I'm pretty sure that any new head coach will have a say in who gets drafted or brought in via FA (including whether to resign Cassel/Freeman).
Sure, Spielman has had hits to go along with the misses. Problem is his misses have been the sort to get entire coaching staffs fired - twice. But yeah, he's king of building rudderless ships.

 
Cordarrelle on KFAN right now...

PA: Any idea why your role was so limited early in the season?

CP: I don't know. I was wondering if maybe they just drafted me as a kick returner.

 
Cordarrelle on KFAN right now...

PA: Any idea why your role was so limited early in the season?

CP: I don't know. I was wondering if maybe they just drafted me as a kick returner.
Ouch. As I (and pretty much everybody) have said, Musgrave needs to go.

 
I'll be happy when I see Spielman get his walking papers, along with Musgrave and whoever is the Defensive Coordinator. You know who I really like? The special teams coach. I saw him about wanna kill someone yesterday in an offsides call on that field goal attempt.
Preifer (ST coach) is who I want as well. He has that fire that I like and loved the way he dealt with Kluwe last season. John Harbaugh has shown that you don't have to be an Offensive or Defensive Coordinator to lead a team.

 
Rumors are that Vikes are interested in Broncos coordinators.
:goodposting: a couple weeks back Jack Del Rio was the "talk around town"..

he didn't exactly "suck" at being a HC as much as others have that have been given a 2nd chance... regular season record of 68–71.. and he has done a pretty good job as Denver DC..

:popcorn:

 
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That link doesn't work for me but I can't imagine how it can rank him as a top 10 GM.

He's failed to get talent on defense outside of the front four, has failed to get a QB, and has failed at finding talent later in the draft from which to develop depth.

His home runs have been deep shots but his batting average is in the low .200's.
Selective much? On defense, how about Harrison Smith, for one? His late round draft picks and FA pickups have been key contributors for the Vikings. The drafts as a whole have been rated very highly by people outside the organization. Talent is not the problem on the Vikings, it's taking advantage of that. Case in point, CP not being utilized early on this season. You can't fix everything in one or two seasons. QB is probably his biggest failing, but not from a lack of trying. He brought people in, it isn't his fault that the coaches haven't been able to do anything with the people he brought in. The ownership has laid the blame on the coaching staff by firing them, and retaining Spielman says something as well. He has not been the problem.

 
Seen a rumor that Jay Gruden may be the front-runner at this moment in time. He's definitely in the mix at least. (Not Jon, Jay is the OC for the Bengals currently.)

 
That link doesn't work for me but I can't imagine how it can rank him as a top 10 GM.

He's failed to get talent on defense outside of the front four, has failed to get a QB, and has failed at finding talent later in the draft from which to develop depth.

His home runs have been deep shots but his batting average is in the low .200's.
Selective much? On defense, how about Harrison Smith, for one? His late round draft picks and FA pickups have been key contributors for the Vikings. The drafts as a whole have been rated very highly by people outside the organization. Talent is not the problem on the Vikings, it's taking advantage of that. Case in point, CP not being utilized early on this season. You can't fix everything in one or two seasons. QB is probably his biggest failing, but not from a lack of trying. He brought people in, it isn't his fault that the coaches haven't been able to do anything with the people he brought in. The ownership has laid the blame on the coaching staff by firing them, and retaining Spielman says something as well. He has not been the problem.
:no: He Over reached for Ponder.. At this point I don't think magic man Manning could have helped Ponder.. he Never was Starting QB material in the minds of 99% of the GM's..Speilman alone is responsible for the over reach, not the coaches for not improving a horrible decision.

 
The problem with the Vikings isn't talent? Okay, Malestrom.
Outside of QB, not really. Scheme, coaching and QB are my top 3 places of blame.
QB is a pretty big problem but I think the team is decent most everywhere else.
And Spielman is responsible for the QBs. I'm sure he had a major hand in hiring of the coaches as well, and we all know how that's turned out. So yeah Spielman is not a top 10 anything in my book.

 
I didn't say he hasn't found ANY talent. He's done pretty well in the 1st outside of Qb (other than that Mrs. Lincoln...)

 
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The problem with the Vikings isn't talent? Okay, Malestrom.
Outside of QB, not really. Scheme, coaching and QB are my top 3 places of blame.
QB is a pretty big problem but I think the team is decent most everywhere else.
And Spielman is responsible for the QBs. I'm sure he had a major hand in hiring of the coaches as well, and we all know how that's turned out. So yeah Spielman is not a top 10 anything in my book.
We are talking about talent, not Spielman. I know he drafts, and missed badly on Ponder, but that's one pick.
 
That link doesn't work for me but I can't imagine how it can rank him as a top 10 GM.

He's failed to get talent on defense outside of the front four, has failed to get a QB, and has failed at finding talent later in the draft from which to develop depth.

His home runs have been deep shots but his batting average is in the low .200's.
Selective much? On defense, how about Harrison Smith, for one? His late round draft picks and FA pickups have been key contributors for the Vikings. The drafts as a whole have been rated very highly by people outside the organization. Talent is not the problem on the Vikings, it's taking advantage of that. Case in point, CP not being utilized early on this season. You can't fix everything in one or two seasons. QB is probably his biggest failing, but not from a lack of trying. He brought people in, it isn't his fault that the coaches haven't been able to do anything with the people he brought in. The ownership has laid the blame on the coaching staff by firing them, and retaining Spielman says something as well. He has not been the problem.
:no: He Over reached for Ponder.. At this point I don't think magic man Manning could have helped Ponder.. he Never was Starting QB material in the minds of 99% of the GM's..Speilman alone is responsible for the over reach, not the coaches for not improving a horrible decision.
His reach for Ponder was a warranted reach at the time. Go back and read up on Ponder, he had a GREAT pre-draft season, and rose from mid-2nd projections early in the season to mid-1st in mocks and predictions just before the draft. Vikings reached, but not as bad as people would have you believe given the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Basically, they needed a QB, they decided that all of the QBs they wanted would be gone before their next pick, and Ponder was the top of their list. Sure, in retrospect, that wasn't the best choice, but that is the reality of the draft. There is always a better choice when you look back 3-4 years. It was consider a controversial pick at the time, but there were just as many people praising the move as those trashing it.

 
That link doesn't work for me but I can't imagine how it can rank him as a top 10 GM.

He's failed to get talent on defense outside of the front four, has failed to get a QB, and has failed at finding talent later in the draft from which to develop depth.

His home runs have been deep shots but his batting average is in the low .200's.
Here is the text of the link I posted: "The case for Rick Spielman" (in spoiler to save space). This is not my work, but I agree with much of it.

A couple weeks ago, I made a thread on why I believe Leslie Frazier is a fine coach for this team and that I believe he will continue to improve and learn upon his mistakes. It's all but certain that that era has passed. But, now, I see tons of Vikings fans on the FSN North and Vikings pages trashing Rick Spielman to pieces. I had some good points in support of Frazier, but ultimately knew that moving on would be best. But, when it comes to Rick, I think it's almost silly to suggest moving on from him. He's been outstanding as a GM so far. And here's my case for him:

First: The dude is an animal in the draft. Here is some of the key moves he has made:

-Duping Cleveland into giving us free picks while still landing Matt Kalil; the guy we wanted all along.

-Using those picks to trade up and grab who? Harrison Smith.

-Drafting various key pieces to our team in later rounds: Marcus Sherels, Rhett Ellison, Audie Cole, just to name a few.

-Getting rid of old reliable Ryan Longwell to bring in a new guy who could boom it out and boom it through with Blair Walsh.

-Recognizing value when it's there. Sharriff Floyd plummeted on draft day and we got an absolute steal at number 23.

-Knowing when to put the chips in for talent when it came to Patterson. Spielman was willing to put picks on the line because he properly evaluated Patterson's dynamic talent and knew he would be worth it. Every time he has traded up, it's resulted in picking up an absolute stud.

Second: How he handled Percy the poison pill. Guys, it was known around the NFL that Percy Harvin wanted OUT of Minnesota. Most analysts thought we were screwed. What did Rick do? He intently claimed that Percy Harvin was special and would remain a Viking. Without that talk there is no way in hell we would have netted a first round pick for him. That pick got us Xavier Rhodes, who is looking like a stud. We still have an extra third rounder this year from it.

Third: His Free Agency methods. Teams like the 2010 Eagles and 2011 Bills just go all out in free agency, spending trucks of money to bring other team's talent in. That did not pan out for them. Rick is not that kind of GM and he knows that he can fill holes without breaking the bank. Before this season, I was going to put Carlson down as his only bust of free agency, but that's even looking like a solid move now. He focuses on signing our own guys and filling gaping holes. Greg Jenning's deal is a perfect example. We needed wide receivers like freaking mad, and Rick brought in a class act whom he knew would pay immediate dividends to both the locker room and team without breaking the bank with a mega-deal.

How about the cons now:

  1. Quarterback evaluation: Spielman has struggled with QB evaluation, I'll admit. After Favre left us, Rick took over as full GM and had a massive uphill climb as we sold out for a championship run in 2010. We needed a quarterback. Desperately. Christian Ponder, today, looks like a massive reach, and even looked bad on draft day. But if you guys put yourself in his shoes, what if Christian Ponder and Andy Dalton had been taken before the second round pick and both turned out to be a stud? That would leave us without a quarterback going into the season. A move had to be made. Bringing in McNugget was also a horrible call, but with the lockout, he was the best option available after his decent previous year with Washington. Before kicking him to the curb, I'm down with giving him one more shot to find our guy.
  2. Jeff Locke/ Kluwe: after the Walsh/ Longwell experiment, I will concede that Rick got a little too prideful and thought he could recreate the magic with Locke who has struggled. Kluwe had a poor 2012 season and probably needed to go, but a 5th round draft choice was far too high for a punter. I believe he will never make that mistake again.
  3. The record. The Vikings have had 2 horrid seasons, with a good one in the middle. That's the first thing that people point to. But, I once again point to the fact that Rick took over a shelled out team and had to almost start over aside from some key veterans. That's a tough task for Ted Thompson even.
All in all, I think those who want Rick gone need to cool their jets a bit and realize that Rick has only been GM for 3 seasons and has been doing a phenominal job with managing this team and building a nucleus of young talent. As his star picks continue to shine and his late rounders continue to develop, along with a new coaching staff to adequately tap into their talent, I think we could see a dangerous team that thrives on consistency year to year. Not selling out for one run and then starting over. I believe in Rick.
 
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Like I said, he's either won big or lost big. Ellison and Sherels are nice role players but they aren't key pieces.

It seems the Vikings roster is boom or bust.

Rhodes looks like a keeper but Cook sucks.

Any safety that's played with Smith has been talent deficient.

Greenway is a player but the other LBs aren't. (We'll see about Cole).

The guards a terrible while the tackles and center are pretty goo to great.

Boom or bust it seems to me.

 
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