*** Official 2013 San Diego Chargers **** (2 Viewers)

[Tau837]

Iftradin rivers improved the team. Id do it in a heart beat.

Ditto. They'll probably go 1-2 to finish the season, which means they'd end up with a 7-9 record. I think I had them around 4 wins, so they'll do better than I guessed there, but from a long term perspective things are about what I thought. Actually the better than expected record is a bit of a downgrade long term as they won't get as good of a draft pick as I was expecting. The defense has been a bit worse than I expected, the offensive line a bit better. They both need work. Granted things change in a hurry in the NFL, but I don't see a championship window opening for this team in the next couple of years. I don't see the point of hanging on to Rivers if you can improve yourself by trading him.

Right if they could get a bevy of picks for him (which I doubt they could) I would do it.

But they are probably stuck with him, which is fine, hes the face of the franchise now and has a bit of a re-birth.

Perfect sell high opportunity IMO.

If you could find a taker, would you trade Rivers for a top 5 pick in this year's draft?

I figure someone would want rivers, if they were close to competiting for a title and didnt have a good QB already.

who is that? dont know

Would Tampa want him? Id take their pick, would Minnesota? The Rams?

It would be interesting. However you would have a glaring hole at QB then, and this class? Meh

Houston? They could possibly go to instant championship contender if they added Rivers to that roster.

Aside from other issues, a problem with this is Schaub's contract. They take a $10.5M cap hit if they release or trade him. Can they afford that hit as well as bringing on a salary like Rivers' salary? I seriously doubt it. At minimum, that would likely harm their chances of being a 2014 contender.

 

[BoltBacker]

Quarterback is the most important position. Look at teams with QB problems -- the Vikings, the Bucs, the Texans, the Raiders, the Jaguars. They'd give anything to start with a great QB and have to build around him. You don't get rid of a franchise QB to get help at other positions. It's the other way around. Getting a franchise QB is the highest priority because he makes everyone around him better, and trying to find one in the draft is a crapshoot that can take a decade.

If they'd give anything to start with a great QB to build around, how much do you honestly think they would be willing to give up for Rivers?

I agree QB is the most important position but keep in mind that Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith. If you look around the league at the "franchise QB's" that will finish the season under .500(Big Ben, Ryan, RGIII, Eli) they have NEVER finished below .500 before. This will be a first for all of them. For Rivers this has become the norm. I'm not sure Rivers is a franchise QB anymore... but he'll certainly get paid like one if he stays.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith

I know, right? Geno's on fire. If only the Jets had a defense as good as the Chargers' they might win the Super Bowl.

 

[Tau837]

Quarterback is the most important position. Look at teams with QB problems -- the Vikings, the Bucs, the Texans, the Raiders, the Jaguars. They'd give anything to start with a great QB and have to build around him. You don't get rid of a franchise QB to get help at other positions. It's the other way around. Getting a franchise QB is the highest priority because he makes everyone around him better, and trying to find one in the draft is a crapshoot that can take a decade.

If they'd give anything to start with a great QB to build around, how much do you honestly think they would be willing to give up for Rivers?

I agree QB is the most important position but keep in mind that Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith. If you look around the league at the "franchise QB's" that will finish the season under .500(Big Ben, Ryan, RGIII, Eli) they have NEVER finished below .500 before. This will be a first for all of them. For Rivers this has become the norm. I'm not sure Rivers is a franchise QB anymore... but he'll certainly get paid like one if he stays.

Would you rather have Roethlisberger at his salary? Eli? Are you suggesting they would have led the Chargers to a better record this season than Rivers? If so, why? If not, why does your statement matter?

And, while you might prefer RGIII, it took multiple high picks to get him, and the Chargers have not been in that position... and it also looks like he could be set up for a run of seasons below .500, anyway.

Bottom line, the franchise QBs who have been in the league for a long enough sample and haven't finished below .500 have had better coaching and better talent around them. It's apples and oranges to compare those situations to Rivers' situation for the past 4+ seasons.

 

[Tau837]

Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith

I know, right? Geno's on fire. If only the Jets had a defense as good as the Chargers' they might win the Super Bowl.

If Rivers were on the Jets, they would probably be a strong playoff contender. And if Geno was on the Chargers, they would be in the hunt for the #1 overall pick. I don't understand it, but it seems some Chargers fans would prefer that.

 

[BoltBacker]

Not many attractive options available at the salary you are suggesting, other than rookies. But the rookies you would want from this list were generally drafted with early round picks. Does it make sense for the Chargers to draft a rookie QB with a high pick to replace Rivers? I don't think so.

IMO this information makes Rivers look more attractive at his salary for the next three seasons.

I'm not sure what any of these numbers have to do with what they would cost to start for SD next season. Do you honestly think Vick, Schaub, Sanchez, etc are going to make anything close to those numbers to play QB next season? They may still be payed a healthy salary by their OLD team but not team will be paying them those salaries. Period. Would any of those guys make you a SB contender? No, just as SD is not a SB contender now. Could they win 4-6 games while you transition to your next QB? Probably.

If anything this list just shows you need to be drafting and playing young QB's imo.

 

[Tau837]

Not many attractive options available at the salary you are suggesting, other than rookies. But the rookies you would want from this list were generally drafted with early round picks. Does it make sense for the Chargers to draft a rookie QB with a high pick to replace Rivers? I don't think so.

IMO this information makes Rivers look more attractive at his salary for the next three seasons.

I'm not sure what any of these numbers have to do with what they would cost to start for SD next season. Do you honestly think Vick, Schaub, Sanchez, etc are going to make anything close to those numbers to play QB next season? They may still be payed a healthy salary by their OLD team but not team will be paying them those salaries. Period. Would any of those guys make you a SB contender? No, just as SD is not a SB contender now. Could they win 4-6 games while you transition to your next QB? Probably.

If anything this list just shows you need to be drafting and playing young QB's imo.

So lay out your scenario(s) that work better for the Chargers than keeping Rivers. How will you get rid of him and when? Who will you replace him with? How will you allocate the money you will presumably save?

 

[BoltBacker]

It would be interesting. However you would have a glaring hole at QB then, and this class? Meh

I think this class isn't bad for a team drafting in the middle of each round. I've seen about nine QB's given grades in the top 3 rounds. Draft OL in rounds 1&2, QB in the 3rd, CB in the 4th&5th, and BPA after that. But I think more importantly if you go with the economy option at QB you have the money to start fixing the rest of the team even before the draft. My whole point is this team isn't good enough to sink that much money into any one player. If it was a SB contender then absolutely, but this team isn't even close to being a SB contender.

 

[BoltBacker]

Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith

I know, right? Geno's on fire. If only the Jets had a defense as good as the Chargers' they might win the Super Bowl.

If Rivers were on the Jets, they would probably be a strong playoff contender. And if Geno was on the Chargers, they would be in the hunt for the #1 overall pick. I don't understand it, but it seems some Chargers fans would prefer that.

Can you unpack this a little?

If Rivers was on the Jets they would be a "strong playoff contender". That means they would have a good chance of sneaking in the playoffs -- or they would be a legitimate SB contender? I think you seriously overestimate the Jets. They aren't very good. Just as the Chargers aren't very good. I'm sorry, but that is just the truth. My whole point is a 6 win team isn't really a huge accomplishment in the big picture.

 

[Gr00vus]

Iftradin rivers improved the team. Id do it in a heart beat.

Ditto. They'll probably go 1-2 to finish the season, which means they'd end up with a 7-9 record. I think I had them around 4 wins, so they'll do better than I guessed there, but from a long term perspective things are about what I thought. Actually the better than expected record is a bit of a downgrade long term as they won't get as good of a draft pick as I was expecting. The defense has been a bit worse than I expected, the offensive line a bit better. They both need work. Granted things change in a hurry in the NFL, but I don't see a championship window opening for this team in the next couple of years. I don't see the point of hanging on to Rivers if you can improve yourself by trading him.

Right if they could get a bevy of picks for him (which I doubt they could) I would do it.

But they are probably stuck with him, which is fine, hes the face of the franchise now and has a bit of a re-birth.

Perfect sell high opportunity IMO.

If you could find a taker, would you trade Rivers for a top 5 pick in this year's draft?

I figure someone would want rivers, if they were close to competiting for a title and didnt have a good QB already.

who is that? dont know

Would Tampa want him? Id take their pick, would Minnesota? The Rams?

It would be interesting. However you would have a glaring hole at QB then, and this class? Meh

Houston? They could possibly go to instant championship contender if they added Rivers to that roster.

Aside from other issues, a problem with this is Schaub's contract. They take a $10.5M cap hit if they release or trade him. Can they afford that hit as well as bringing on a salary like Rivers' salary? I seriously doubt it. At minimum, that would likely harm their chances of being a 2014 contender.

Seems like they're done with Schaub to me. I can't imagine they're going to keep him around after this season. Maybe that means they stick with Keenum, maybe that means they take a chance on a 1st round QB with their likely #1 pick, in which case they don't deal it. But I'd at least kick the tires there.

 

[BoltBacker]

So lay out your scenario(s) that work better for the Chargers than keeping Rivers.

I think this is the place where we are having a disagreement.

IMO another 6-7 season(so far) is failure. The scenario better than failure is..... anything else.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith

I know, right? Geno's on fire. If only the Jets had a defense as good as the Chargers' they might win the Super Bowl.

If Rivers were on the Jets, they would probably be a strong playoff contender. And if Geno was on the Chargers, they would be in the hunt for the #1 overall pick. I don't understand it, but it seems some Chargers fans would prefer that.

Can you unpack this a little?If Rivers was on the Jets they would be a "strong playoff contender". That means they would have a good chance of sneaking in the playoffs -- or they would be a legitimate SB contender? I think you seriously overestimate the Jets. They aren't very good. Just as the Chargers aren't very good. I'm sorry, but that is just the truth. My whole point is a 6 win team isn't really a huge accomplishment in the big picture.

Here... try this...

If you look at this chart you see that the Jets and Chargers are mirror images of each other. The Jets are among the league's very worst offenses, but have a better than average D. The Chargers have a top five(ish) offense, but are among the league's very worst defenses.

If you use the chart to combine the Chargers' offense (with Rivers) and the Jets defense (as is) you'd have a team that was somewhere between the Eagles and the Saints. i.e. a good to very good team.

However, if you put the Geno-led Jets offense with the Chargers defense what you have is the Jaguars.

It's not a perfect comparison, since QBs aren't 100% of an offense, but I think Rivers on the Jets absolutely is a mid-pack playoff team while Geno on the Chargers absolutely is in the running for worst team in the league.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Rivers is 6-7(and this isn't a one year anomaly, it's been about that for several years now) and the New York Jets are 6-7 starting Geno Smith

I know, right? Geno's on fire. If only the Jets had a defense as good as the Chargers' they might win the Super Bowl.

If Rivers were on the Jets, they would probably be a strong playoff contender. And if Geno was on the Chargers, they would be in the hunt for the #1 overall pick. I don't understand it, but it seems some Chargers fans would prefer that.

sucks we are caught in the mediocre middle right now.

not nearly a contender.

Good enough to not get that future franchise QB or clear cut stud in the early first.

being in the middle sucks

By the time that they rebuild that D, Oline, maybe Rivers time is up anyway. Then you start to look for a franchsie QB.

UGH

 

[cstu]

sucks we are caught in the mediocre middle right now.

not nearly a contender.

Good enough to not get that future franchise QB or clear cut stud in the early first.

being in the middle sucks

By the time that they rebuild that D, Oline, maybe Rivers time is up anyway. Then you start to look for a franchsie QB.

UGH

I'm hoping these meaningless wins don't cost them Ekpre Olomu.

 

[Tau837]

So lay out your scenario(s) that work better for the Chargers than keeping Rivers.

I think this is the place where we are having a disagreement.

IMO another 6-7 season(so far) is failure. The scenario better than failure is..... anything else.

Yet you seem unable or unwilling to lay out some of those scenarios.

OK, let's say they release Rivers after the season. I don't know how to gauge what other teams would be willing to trade for him while also needing to accommodate his cap hit for 2014-2015, which would be $15M and $15.75M since the Chargers would have been responsible for the amortized signing bonus. I suppose they would likely restructure him to spread out those hits, and he'd have a home for the rest of his career... but, anyway, I don't know what a team would be willing to give up in a trade, so I'll ignore that until someone who has a better idea chimes in.

It seems the Chargers' best course of action would be to draft a rookie QB, since that is a strategy that has been reasonably successful recently, particularly in terms of keeping the cap hit of the QB position down. Of course, they need to draft a Luck/Newton/Wilson/Kaepernick/Dalton/Tannehill guy rather than a Weeden/Ponder/Gabbert/McCoy/Geno/Pryor guy. The good ones generally require a high pick, so there goes one of the high draft picks that most posters in this thread have been hoping would be used on OL/CB... so they delay fixing one of those positions. But even the high pick QBs bust. Where were Weeden, Ponder, Gabbert, McCoy, and Geno taken? I don't know without looking it up, but I think all were 1st or 2nd rounders. I suppose we have to just hope the new braintrust makes a good pick.

Now, do they just pair that guy with Whitehurst and Sorensen, or do they sign a veteran QB to help out? If the latter, they presumably cut Whitehurst (not their guy) and keep Sorensen (their guy) to offset some or all of the cost of the veteran QB.

Rivers is slated for a cap hit in 2014 of $16.7M. The Chargers will take a $4.5M cap hit for releasing him, so this frees up $12.2M in 2014. Assuming they didn't sign the veteran QB, that's how much can be used to address improvements. How to use it? Sign one really good free agent OL/CB? Two solid free agents? I'll assume the latter.

OK, so where did we end up in 2014? The team regresses because QB play goes from near the top of the league to most likely near the bottom of the league. They didn't get that first round OL/CB but hopefully improved the team with those two solid free agents they couldn't have signed if Rivers stayed. Of course, this analysis assumes that neither free agent signing is a bust, so there is some risk there. Regardless, the net effect on the team is negative in 2014. But that's okay, right? Better draft picks!

So they add some better rookies in 2015. They are still saving money compared to Rivers playing in 2015. So they sign one top or two solid impact free agents and maybe they also rework a contract or two for some good young players on the roster. So where are they in 2015? Well, most likely, 1-2 of the 3-4 free agents the savings netted will bust. But that still means 2-3 helpful free agents were added... though at the expense of much worse QB play, plus they also didn't get that 2014 first round OL/CB. Maybe they hope to get back to the 6-7 level in 2015...?

But did the high round QB work out? Or has he disappointed by 2015? There is a real chance of that, in which case it's time to start over again. Rinse, repeat.

Now, if you disagree with this scenario, say why and how you see that things will be different. This is a classic "be careful what you wish for" situation IMO.

 

[BoltBacker]

OK, so where did we end up in 2014? The team regresses because...

I was going to give a long answer to your post but really it just boils down to this. You seem terrified the team will regress from a 6 or 7 win team. I am not.

I do think that your numbers are off though. According to these links it would cost $1.2mil to cut him and the team would save just under $14mil by cutting him.

http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/5/28/4373732/contract-philip-rivers-last-year-san-diego-chargers

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/san-diego-chargers-salary-cap-outlook-bargains-busts-151632214.html

No, I wouldn't pay a single FA $14mil. With a roster this mediocre you can land three starters for that $. I also wouldn't use a first round pick on a QB(as I already posted, being "unwilling" and "unable" all the while). There are 5-10 QB prospects that are thought of very highly. There's no reason to think one of those guys won't be available in the middle of the 3rd round.

It worries me that the front office is just going to wring out the last few drops of Rivers career complaining about how they are handcuffed by the salary cap and not having a new stadium while the fanbase seems placated, maybe even energized by the fact that this 7-9 team is so much better than last years 7-9 team. The idea that if changes are made SD may not be 7-9 next season worries me very, very little at all. That's where we disagree.

 

[Tau837]

OK, so where did we end up in 2014? The team regresses because...

I was going to give a long answer to your post but really it just boils down to this. You seem terrified the team will regress from a 6 or 7 win team. I am not.

...I also wouldn't use a first round pick on a QB(as I already posted, being "unwilling" and "unable" all the while). There are 5-10 QB prospects that are thought of very highly. There's no reason to think one of those guys won't be available in the middle of the 3rd round.

I'm not "terrified" of the team regressing. The point of my post is to gauge potential outcomes of what you are advocating. One of them is that 2014 is much worse and 2015 is worse or similar. In which case you are advocating throwing away two seasons for a chance at a better 2016 and beyond.

Now I see from this post that you are advocating replacing Rivers with a rookie QB drafted in the third round. That's even worse than I thought. In that case, the odds are that you are throwing away a lot more than 2014 and 2015. To expect otherwise is to expect the Chargers to beat very long odds.

I do think that your numbers are off though. According to these links it would cost $1.2mil to cut him and the team would save just under $14mil by cutting him.

http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/5/28/4373732/contract-philip-rivers-last-year-san-diego-chargers

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/san-diego-chargers-salary-cap-outlook-bargains-busts-151632214.html

No, my numbers aren't wrong. You are citing sources from May and July, but Rivers' contract was restructured in September, converting $5M of salary to a bonus, which amortized its cap hit from 2013 to 2013-2015. See spotrac.

The idea that if changes are made SD may not be 7-9 next season worries me very, very little at all. That's where we disagree.

No, where we disagree is on the long term effects of our preferred paths forward. You are advocating an approach that could yield a Super Bowl if the Chargers draft another Russell Wilson in the third round. I am advocating that Rivers should be the Chargers QB for the next 5+ years, which is more than enough time for a competent front office to build a quality roster around him to compete for a championship. Neither path has a high probability of resulting in a championship, but IMO your proposed path is much less likely to be successful.

 

[BoltBacker]

Now I see from this post that you are advocating replacing Rivers with a rookie QB drafted in the third round. That's even worse than I thought.

I've been advocating bringing in another veteran QB and drafting a QB all along. Then you responded by pointing out that guys like Vick who have lost their job and likely won't be back with their current team are going to make $12.2mil next season. Do you honestly believe that?

 

[BoltBacker]

If you use the chart to combine the Chargers' offense (with Rivers) and the Jets defense (as is) you'd have a team that was somewhere between the Eagles and the Saints. i.e. a good to very good team.

I'm just checking to make sure this post is sarcasm.

If you drop Rivers..... and Woodhead..... and Mathews.... and Gates...... and Green..... and Allen..... and heck maybe even Vincent Brown onto the Jets then you'd have the Chargers offense. If you drop Rivers on a team with Ivory the leading rusher and Kerley/Winslow Jr as the leading receivers they would be NOTHING like the SD offense.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Not sarcasm. The Chargers skill position players are better, but none of them are legit pro-bowlers.

IMO Rivers would make (a healthy) Santonio Holmes a WR1 again (he's miles better than anyone the Chargers are throwing to today). Cumberland would look like an NFL starter and (a healthy) Ivory would be effective.

And vice versa. The Chargers skill position players would look very average without Rivers.

 

[BoltBacker]

IMO Rivers would make (a healthy) Santonio Holmes a WR1 again (he's miles better than anyone the Chargers are throwing to today).

I can't tell if you are really, really underestimating Keenan Allen here, or really, really overestimating Holmes.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

IMO Rivers would make (a healthy) Santonio Holmes a WR1 again (he's miles better than anyone the Chargers are throwing to today).

I can't tell if you are really, really underestimating Keenan Allen here, or really, really overestimating Holmes.

rob is a keenan allen hater. never mind him

 

[Tau837]

Now I see from this post that you are advocating replacing Rivers with a rookie QB drafted in the third round. That's even worse than I thought.

I've been advocating bringing in another veteran QB and drafting a QB all along. Then you responded by pointing out that guys like Vick who have lost their job and likely won't be back with their current team are going to make $12.2mil next season. Do you honestly believe that?

I'm pretty sure I posted the current (2013) cap numbers for a long list of QBs, including Vick, and asked you (or anyone) to give me some scenarios for how you would move forward without Rivers.

Do I think Vick will sign in San Diego for a 1 year $4M deal next year if Rivers is gone? No. Is that your plan then? And, if so, what is the 3rd round QB? Is he your long term starter? If so, my point holds about the odds of a bust. If not, why draft him?

Also note that your plan will devote $4M and a 3rd round pick to replacing Rivers, which mitigates the savings to a larger degree than I assumed earlier.

 

[Tau837]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

 

[FF Ninja]

IMO Rivers would make (a healthy) Santonio Holmes a WR1 again (he's miles better than anyone the Chargers are throwing to today).

I can't tell if you are really, really underestimating Keenan Allen here, or really, really overestimating Holmes.

rob is a keenan allen hater. never mind him

I think he's right about Holmes. I think Rivers could make him a WR1 again. He's only 29 and can still play. He just doesn't have a QB.

However, Allen is WR11 from weeks 4-14, so he's a WR1 as well. He's got the least targets and the least TDs of anyone in the top 12 so he and Rivers are a very productive combo. I don't want to jump to conclusions on Allen, but he sure appears legit - at least while he's on the same team as Rivers. If the Chargers don't add a significant WR in the offseason, he should be viewed as a fringe WR1, high end WR2 next year.

 

[FF Ninja]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

That guy hates Rivers and Mathews. He just needs to find a new team to root for. SD would be crazy to move on from Rivers. I know I'd gladly take him in Houston. Andre Johnson would be a beast.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

IMO Rivers would make (a healthy) Santonio Holmes a WR1 again (he's miles better than anyone the Chargers are throwing to today).

I can't tell if you are really, really underestimating Keenan Allen here, or really, really overestimating Holmes.

rob is a keenan allen hater. never mind him

I think he's right about Holmes. I think Rivers could make him a WR1 again. He's only 29 and can still play. He just doesn't have a QB.

However, Allen is WR11 from weeks 4-14, so he's a WR1 as well. He's got the least targets and the least TDs of anyone in the top 12 so he and Rivers are a very productive combo. I don't want to jump to conclusions on Allen, but he sure appears legit - at least while he's on the same team as Rivers. If the Chargers don't add a significant WR in the offseason, he should be viewed as a fringe WR1, high end WR2 next year.

Holmes is damaged goods and 1 strike from a year off. His best football is behind him.

Sure better QB could make him more servicable for FF purposes again but he isnt MILES better than Keenan Allen.

Allen has glue hands, is running great routes and is only a rookie. Soemtimes the super dyno "gurus" get it wrong, yet they stick to their opinions even when a player proves them wrong on the field

 

[FF Ninja]

Hey, I'll be the first to admit Holmes was on my DND list this year due to the grade 4 lisfranc injury and QB situation. But I've been impressed with what I've seen from him this year. He doesn't look like he's suffering at all from the foot injury or from skipping camp. At only 29 years old I think it is a bit short sighted to say his best football is behind him. The 2 strikes against him are definitely cause for concern, but are not performance related. Unless you are referring to the lisfranc injury which he appears 100% recovered from then I'm not sure what you mean by damaged goods.

Anyway, I don't know why you went on about Allen. If you re-read what I wrote, I obviously really like Allen. My point was simply that I think Rivers could make Holmes OR Allen a fantasy WR1.

 

[Gr00vus]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

That guy hates Rivers and Mathews. He just needs to find a new team to root for. SD would be crazy to move on from Rivers. I know I'd gladly take him in Houston. Andre Johnson would be a beast.

Would you deal the Houston #1 pick and change for Rivers?

 

[Gr00vus]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

If the right deal was available, I'd trade Rivers. I'd try to sign Fitzpatrick as a transitional QB while trying to find the next franchise guy. If they're sticking with a 3-4 they need to find a dominant NT, as well as some starting quality DBs, a couple of upgrades at offensive tackle/guard, and probably a new center some time pretty soon. The jury's out on whether they'll need an outside pass rusher as well pending Ingram's return (can't really plan on Freeney long term regardless of whether he comes back from the injury or not). That's what they need to become legitimate super bowl contenders. Seems like a 2-3 year job minimum. Rivers's prime will very likely be over by that time.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

That guy hates Rivers and Mathews. He just needs to find a new team to root for. SD would be crazy to move on from Rivers. I know I'd gladly take him in Houston. Andre Johnson would be a beast.

Would you deal the Houston #1 pick and change for Rivers?

Rivers isnt worth the #1 pick, sorry Tommygunz

 

[Gr00vus]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

That guy hates Rivers and Mathews. He just needs to find a new team to root for. SD would be crazy to move on from Rivers. I know I'd gladly take him in Houston. Andre Johnson would be a beast.

Would you deal the Houston #1 pick and change for Rivers?

Rivers isnt worth the #1 pick, sorry Tommygunz

I'm not saying he is (though that is sort of a commentary on his value isn't it?) - but it can't hurt to ask.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Based on this recent mock, at the chargers position in the current draft, I'd be real happy with any of these picks:

15. San Diego Chargers—CB Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State

The Chargers are playing well despite holes on both sides of the ball. You might expect to see an offensive lineman here, but that's not how Tom Telesco and Mike McCoy work. The smart move would be landing a future No. 1 at cornerback, and that's where Justin Gilbert projects. A big cornerback with smooth feet, Gilbert can be a lockdown man-coverage cornerback and has the ball skills to create turnovers on an island.

16. Green Bay Packers—FS Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Alabama

The Green Bay defense needs so much help that Ted Thompson can sit in the war room and draft the best available player on that side of the ball. He could but shouldn't. The Packers need to home in on weaknesses and fill glaring holes first while still going for value.

That makes the pick of Ha Ha Clinton-Dix a no-brainer. The Alabama safety has range to attack the ball in the air, but he'll also step into the box and hit. He's not Earl Thomas, but he's close.

17. Chicago Bears—LB C.J. Mosley, Alabama

On draft night, C.J. Mosley shouldn't last this long, but without trades and before free agency, this is where he falls. The Chicago Bears would gladly end his wait. Mosley can play either inside or outside linebacker, excels against the run and has the hips to play in coverage.

Imagine Lavonte David with 10 more pounds on his frame and you have Mosley. The Bears would love building out a linebacker corps with Mosley, Jon Bostic and Khaseem Greene for the next decade.

18. Detroit Lions—CB Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State

It's time to fix the secondary in Detroit and not with second- and third round picks. The Lions need a player ready for the NFL, and they won't have to look far to find him.

Darqueze Dennard excels in the aggressive Michigan State defense, and he's proven that he brings the speed and technique to defend in man coverage against both speed and size at receiver. If he's on the board, the Lions would be fools to pass.

 

[FF Ninja]

So BB and I have had a running dialogue here and clearly have very different opinions of what the Chargers should do. I'm interested in other posters' opinions on this subject. Thoughts?

That guy hates Rivers and Mathews. He just needs to find a new team to root for. SD would be crazy to move on from Rivers. I know I'd gladly take him in Houston. Andre Johnson would be a beast.

Would you deal the Houston #1 pick and change for Rivers?

Everyone will dismiss this idea outright without much thought, but I'd at least have to think about it. Looks like he just turned 32, so how many more years could I expect to get top production out of him? He was never very mobile, but his mechanics are so weird. Not sure how that will age. Maybe 4 more years.

I'd need the numbers for a rookie contract vs. what kind of extension Rivers would agree to. Looks like the average cap usage of a 1st overall pick is about $5.5M which is less than I was expecting. Rivers would be pretty expensive for a team that doesn't do very well with the cap - I'm looking at you Rick Smith.

Houston is not in a position to develop a rookie QB, so I'd be very tempted to at least trade back with SD, but probably not give up 1st + change for Rivers.

I'm a big fan of the "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush" philosophy so I'm not amped up about drafting Bridgewater or any other rookie. If I could get a good deal for an aging Rivers I'd have to mull it over.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

playoffs?

 

[Gr00vus]

playoffs?

That's what they want you to think. Then they'll go out and put up a clunker vs. the Raiders to take themselves out of the playoffs. Then they'll inexplicably beat KC to close out the season and make their draft position just that much worse.

It was still great watching them beat the Broncos on Thursday. Did you guys see Rivers when he was interviewing with the NFL Network broadcasters after the game? If I didn't know better I'd say he was on coke.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Link to the Rivers interview.

 

[Tau837]

Did you guys see Rivers when he was interviewing with the NFL Network broadcasters after the game? If I didn't know better I'd say he was on coke.

That's just his normal personality.

 

[FF Ninja]

Link to the Rivers interview.

Wow, a turquoise bolo tie.

 

[BoltBacker]

I had to eat crow as Te'o had his best game of the season vs the Giants, and against denver it's my turn to eat crow due to the stellar play of King Dunlap.

He still has concussion issues and I think SD would be wise to draft a LT of the future that can play LG for now in the first round of the draft. The nice thing about Dunlap is he has experience playing either LT or RT so if you draft a LT you are two deep at both tackle spots. Clary can finally fade into the sunset. Seems like Lewan(Michigan) has been sinking and I would love to see SD nab him in the 1st.

 

[BoltBacker]

Based on this recent mock, at the chargers position in the current draft, I'd be real happy with any of these picks:

15. San Diego Chargers—CB Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State

The Chargers are playing well despite holes on both sides of the ball. You might expect to see an offensive lineman here, but that's not how Tom Telesco and Mike McCoy work. The smart move would be landing a future No. 1 at cornerback, and that's where Justin Gilbert projects. A big cornerback with smooth feet, Gilbert can be a lockdown man-coverage cornerback and has the ball skills to create turnovers on an island.

... but how much difference is there really between Giblert, Verrett, Roby, and Purifoy(just to name a few)? Seems to me every two weeks this group gets completely re-shuffled. As of today Dennard is supposed to be the best of the lot, but that is a very recent development.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I think that Boltbacker and others advocating the ousting of Rivers have been spoiled since 2004.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I think that Boltbacker and others advocating the ousting of Rivers have been spoiled since 2004.

I was just thinking recently how I'd been a Charger fan through the Billy Joe Tolliver, John Friesz, Craig Whelihan, Jim Harbaugh, Erik Kramer, Ryan Leaf, Moses Moreno years before we finally got to Flutie/Brees/Rivers.

Things are really way, way better now and I don't want to go back to the way they were before.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Based on this recent mock, at the chargers position in the current draft, I'd be real happy with any of these picks:

15. San Diego Chargers—CB Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State

The Chargers are playing well despite holes on both sides of the ball. You might expect to see an offensive lineman here, but that's not how Tom Telesco and Mike McCoy work. The smart move would be landing a future No. 1 at cornerback, and that's where Justin Gilbert projects. A big cornerback with smooth feet, Gilbert can be a lockdown man-coverage cornerback and has the ball skills to create turnovers on an island.

... but how much difference is there really between Giblert, Verrett, Roby, and Purifoy(just to name a few)? Seems to me every two weeks this group gets completely re-shuffled. As of today Dennard is supposed to be the best of the lot, but that is a very recent development.

well I was just saying I liked the players in that range.

and with Balt & Miami winning it almost guarantees SD pick to be below 20.

Living in big 10 country I have seen a lot of Dennards and Lewands games so I like both of them quite a bit I think LEwand cost himself money by staying in school

CBs are hard to project to the NFL even some of the best ones in recent years have struggled.

 

[BoltBacker]

I think that Boltbacker and others advocating the ousting of Rivers have been spoiled since 2004.

I think that's true. Rivers has had a great career as a Charger and even his bad years haven't been so much a result of his poor play as the pressure put on him by having been surrounded by substandard players.

In my opinion Rivers is having an All-Pro type season but I think that just underscores my point that SD still can't muster a better than .500 year with Rivers playing off the charts. This team has so many holes I don't think they can be overhauled(at least to the point of actually contending) in just one year. Probably not two years.

As I've already posted on several occasions, my frustration with Rivers isn't that he has disappointed but rather the fact that franchise have pissed away his best years and now are going to be forced to pay him the most at the twilight of his career.... which means they'll have even less resources to surround him with a better team.

It's a .500 team with Rivers having an All-Pro type season. It is what it is. Not only that, it is what is has been for many years now.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Good interview with Tom Telesco here (link to mp3 file).

 

[BoltBacker]

I believe with one more off-season Telesco can have this team in contention for the division.

It's certainly possible.

Manning is almost 40 so his window is almost closed, and given their defense that franchise will have to start from scratch very soon. If anything happened to Charles I'm not sure how KC would score many points. And the raiders..... well.

Of course being "in contention for the division" pretty much describes every year with Norv Turner right up until his last year. So if you think the SD franchise will be pretty much where it's been for the past 4-5 years.... I can't really argue with that. The last Charger team that could even make noise in the playoffs was the 2009 team that disappointed in the post season. That was back when Tomlinson/Merriman both started 14 games. Seems like a million years ago.

 

[BoltBacker]

Living in big 10 country I have seen a lot of Dennards and Lewands games so I like both of them quite a bit I think LEwand cost himself money by staying in school

What are your thoughts on Roby(Ohio State)? He's been drifting down projections but seems like the type of athlete that could see a boost at the combine.

Another guy I think is interesting is Purifoy(Florida). It wasn't long ago I saw a first round grade in a few places and now he's suddenly being projected as a 3rd rounder.

 

[Riversco]

Been avoiding much talk of the Chargers but with the Dolphins loss this is what is needed:

1. Chargers beat the Raiders at home today, win at home against the slumping Chiefs next week.

2. Ravens lose to the Patriots and red hot (?) Bengals.

3. Dolphins lose to the Jets who won today.

This isn't impossible!

 

[Riversco]

I think these are the playoff scenarios:

1. Assume Chargers finish with 9 wins.

2. Assume Ravens lose to the Patriots and Bengals.

3. Assume Dolphins lose to the Jets.

If the Patriots and Colts win in week 17, the Bengals host the Chargers.

If the Patriots are upset by the Bills and the Colts beat the Jaguars, its a 3 way tie at 11-5 and it means the Colts host the Chargers.

If the Patriots are upset by the BIlls and the Colts are upset by the Jaguars, the Patriots host the Chargers.