***Official 2014 World Cup Thread*** (3 Viewers)

[GregR]

I don't follow other sports threads on here.

Do people constantly try and offer opinions on how to fix other sports or are we just lucky?

I'm not sure the soccer rules commentary even equals the debate here (specifically) over changing NFL extra points. Let alone arguments over what constitutes a catch, illegal hits on defenseless players and QBs, etc, where it's probably orders of magnitude less.

That said, soccer has archaic aspects that beg criticism. Propose to any other sport that they should ignore the fact a clock can be turned off temporarily when the game is not in play and instead you should just estimate how much time is left and then add some amount back in to make up for it, and you'd be looked at like you were a blithering idiot.

 

[Joe Bryant]

He embellished it and as the Mexican commentator on ESPN said, Rafa can't just stick his foot in there. It was a reckless challenge and while some might have thought there wasn't enough contact for the PK, it was still a bad challenge.

I do draw a fine line between embellishing and flopping. But I do think FIFA has to start allocating yellows or some type of punishment after the fact for blatant flopping.

MLS does this. If a player is found on video to have dived, he can be fined and suspended. It has worked well for the league.

Thanks NR,

So in MLS there is less flopping and you think it's because of the video review? I can see that. Is there discussion of doing this in World Cup?

J

 

[Steve Tasker]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

 

[The General]

I have no problem with there being a penalty there (flopping aside) my concern is why it leads to a penalty kick. Id think a corner kick or something would be more appropriate for an off ball foul. I get that those are just the rules though.

They made a commitment a long time ago. A direct foul in the penalty box is a penalty. Exactly because they don't want to leave it up to the ref to decide what type of kick it is. It can be on the touch line in the corner with the offensive guy heading away from the goal. It's still a penalty. And every defender knows it.

Get that this is the rule. Do soccer fans / players accept this is the best way to handle all penalties in the box or is this a rule that folks talk about wanting to see be modified?

Yes...unless a PK is awarded against your team and then you b itch about it.

Well, that part sounds exactly like every other sport.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

I have no problem with there being a penalty there (flopping aside) my concern is why it leads to a penalty kick. Id think a corner kick or something would be more appropriate for an off ball foul. I get that those are just the rules though.

I wouldn't call it an off-ball foul. Robben took a heavy touch as he tried to cut back in, but he still might have been able to get to the ball. We don't know because he got fouled.

Yeah, I changed my OP, I meant to say "non-shooting foul"

 

[Pumpnick]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

i love no time outs

 

[GregR]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

In that the broadcast doesn't go to commercials all the time it's nice.

But you can have that and still have a time keeping system that doesn't invite players faking injuries to abuse it because they know time isn't kept accurately.

 

[NewlyRetired]

He embellished it and as the Mexican commentator on ESPN said, Rafa can't just stick his foot in there. It was a reckless challenge and while some might have thought there wasn't enough contact for the PK, it was still a bad challenge.

I do draw a fine line between embellishing and flopping. But I do think FIFA has to start allocating yellows or some type of punishment after the fact for blatant flopping.

MLS does this. If a player is found on video to have dived, he can be fined and suspended. It has worked well for the league.

Thanks NR,

So in MLS there is less flopping and you think it's because of the video review? I can see that. Is there discussion of doing this in World Cup?

J

First off, MLS, Bundesliga and EPL in general have less diving than La Liga, Liga MX, or Serie A. Some leagues have a lot more than others.

But in general it has helped in MLS keep it to a minimum (it will never be removed entirely, people cheat in every sport).

 

[The Z Machine]

Ruud suffers from being a little too mellow. Sure his insight is good, and he's obviously quite intelligent (I think I read somewhere a long time ago that he has a law degree that he got during his playing days), but the pitch of his voice is so low and he talks relatively softly (so as not to boom his voice) that he can be tough to listen to for long stretches. He's not boring or annoying, so that's a plus.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

Yeah. This is a non-issue to me.

 

[Christo]

I have no problem with there being a penalty there (flopping aside) my concern is why it leads to a penalty kick. Id think a corner kick or something would be more appropriate for an off ball foul. I get that those are just the rules though.

I wouldn't call it an off-ball foul. Robben took a heavy touch as he tried to cut back in, but he still might have been able to get to the ball. We don't know because he got fouled.

Yeah, I changed my OP, I meant to say "non-shooting foul"

I don't understand this distinction. So if I'm dribbling towards the goal to set up a shot and a guy fouls me before I shoot you think it shouldn't be a penalty even though one more touch would have put me in a position to shoot or to make a quick pass to an open player who could have shot?

 

[The Z Machine]

Embellishment is part of the sport. It's a crappy part of the sport, sure, but it's part of it. Trying to root it out would be folly, as you'd change the whole texture of the greatest sport in the world, and that would be wrong.

I will say however, that there is far less embellishment in the women's game than in the men's. There's also far less tackling and going to ground in the women's game and sometimes when I've watched high level competition, I find myself yelling "just get stuck in!" and wanting them to work harder at intercepting passes on the ground through timely slides.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

A big difference regarding rule changes is the American professional leagues tweak things every year so the "rules of the game" are always somewhat in flux and up for debate. FIFA doesn't seem interested in changing and maybe there's not as much need or demand to change either, so soccer rules stay pretty much the same.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

In that the broadcast doesn't go to commercials all the time it's nice.

But you can have that and still have a time keeping system that doesn't invite players faking injuries to abuse it because they know time isn't kept accurately.

Define accurately. I'd say it is generally pretty accurate of 45 minutes per half.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

I have no problem with there being a penalty there (flopping aside) my concern is why it leads to a penalty kick. Id think a corner kick or something would be more appropriate for an off ball foul. I get that those are just the rules though.

I wouldn't call it an off-ball foul. Robben took a heavy touch as he tried to cut back in, but he still might have been able to get to the ball. We don't know because he got fouled.

Yeah, I changed my OP, I meant to say "non-shooting foul"

I don't understand this distinction. So if I'm dribbling towards the goal to set up a shot and a guy fouls me before I shoot you think it shouldn't be a penalty even though one more touch would have put me in a position to shoot or to make a quick pass to an open player who could have shot?

That would be the rationale for all penalty shots within the box I guess. I saw it more as him sensing the pressure, making an outside foot pass and then tripping. All while on the side of the net. Would have been a close call for an official to make. I'll fully admit I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of the sport though.

 

[NewlyRetired]

A big difference regarding rule changes is the American professional leagues tweak things every year so the "rules of the game" are always somewhat in flux and up for debate. FIFA doesn't seem interested in changing and maybe there's not as much need or demand to change either, so soccer rules stay pretty much the same.

It also may be that trying to make changes for one country is a lot easier to manage than trying to make changes for the entire world. If the NBA makes a rule change, it does not automatically mean FIBA will.

It is hard enough to sell a rule change to one countries set of fans but trying to do it to 200 different countries makes the variables explode.

Look at the shaving cream. It was arguably the simplest rule tweak ever and even then we had the Euro fans worried about it be ause they had no exposure to it. The EPL does not even want to adopt it next season.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Why does the NFL clock run in-between plays? And why do they stop it for incomplete passes, but keep it running when the ball stays in bounds?

I think they should only let the clock run when the ball is live.

Soccer teams can only dream of the control NFL teams have over the clock.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Damn. ESPN brought in the B-team

 

[El Floppo]

Watched the Mesko game sitting on the beach at Assateque island dodging wild horses.

You staying on the island? We've thought about taking the kids but the bugs sounded biblical.

Staying nearby.We've seen bad horse flies there before, but most of the time its fine. Saw more horses today there than ever before.

Beach is nice, and because its in s pay to enter national park, you don't get the OC boardwalk goombahs

 

[Joe Bryant]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

I'll be honest in that it's growing on me. Af first, I thought it was ridiculous. Now I'm kind of getting used to it. You have to basically forget what you know about Football (American). Clock management is such a huge part of the American Football game that fans are wired to look at every second and accuracy is huge. Split seconds matter when killing the clock and such. With soccer, it's more like bookends. You know when it's going to start and then you pretty much know when it ends (at least after 90 minutes). There really isn't any "management" as the players can't control the clock. Or at least that's just my impression of it as a new soccer viewer.

J

 

[Sinn Fein]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

 

[The Gator]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

Five hour games, I can't wait

 

[The General]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

They can't do this? Why is that?

 

[El Floppo]

I have no problem with there being a penalty there (flopping aside) my concern is why it leads to a penalty kick. Id think a corner kick or something would be more appropriate for an off ball foul. I get that those are just the rules though.

I wouldn't call it an off-ball foul. Robben took a heavy touch as he tried to cut back in, but he still might have been able to get to the ball. We don't know because he got fouled.

Yeah, I changed my OP, I meant to say "non-shooting foul"

I don't understand this distinction. So if I'm dribbling towards the goal to set up a shot and a guy fouls me before I shoot you think it shouldn't be a penalty even though one more touch would have put me in a position to shoot or to make a quick pass to an open player who could have shot?

There's a reason the box is there. Any time the ball is inside the box, is putting danger on the goal. So any foul worthy of a direct kick as opposed to indirect (obstruction) is worthy of aPK.

That would be the rationale for all penalty shots within the box I guess. I saw it more as him sensing the pressure, making an outside foot pass and then tripping. All while on the side of the net. Would have been a close call for an official to make. I'll fully admit I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of the sport though.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't follow other sports threads on here.

Do people constantly try and offer opinions on how to fix other sports or are we just lucky?

Couple of thoughts.

I agree with Rudnicki that it happens in every sport.

With that said, I get it that serious soccer fan doesn't like new people like me coming in and suggesting how to make their game better. That's already hugely popular without my input.

On the other hand, it seems the other sports fans are able to be thicker skinned in talking about it. Calling the current extra point stupid doesn't have NFL fans overly defensive as if you're attacking the game. The NFL especially seems actively interested in improving the game by rule tweaks. So the difference does seem interesting.



J

 

[GregR]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

I'll be honest in that it's growing on me. Af first, I thought it was ridiculous. Now I'm kind of getting used to it. You have to basically forget what you know about Football (American). Clock management is such a huge part of the American Football game that fans are wired to look at every second and accuracy is huge. Split seconds matter when killing the clock and such. With soccer, it's more like bookends. You know when it's going to start and then you pretty much know when it ends (at least after 90 minutes). There really isn't any "management" as the players can't control the clock. Or at least that's just my impression of it as a new soccer viewer.

J

The players can't control the clock but they can prevent the game from being played which because of the rules runs time off the clock.

Used to be they didn't have stoppage time but there was enough uproar over players doing this that they added stoppage time. But from what I've seen, they don't truly add enough time back in so it's still a beneficial strategy. Especially in stoppage time itself... sometimes you see a ref extend the game further for stoppage during that time, but I don't think they always do.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

They can't do this? Why is that?

They could. Not all that long ago you got less than three and a much smaller bench to choose from too.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Dumb question: For penalty kicks, what is the rough percentage for how many of those are made at a world class level like these guys are?

J

 

[The Z Machine]

Call me crazy, but I like the running clock. A lot.

I'll be honest in that it's growing on me. Af first, I thought it was ridiculous. Now I'm kind of getting used to it. You have to basically forget what you know about Football (American). Clock management is such a huge part of the American Football game that fans are wired to look at every second and accuracy is huge. Split seconds matter when killing the clock and such. With soccer, it's more like bookends. You know when it's going to start and then you pretty much know when it ends (at least after 90 minutes). There really isn't any "management" as the players can't control the clock. Or at least that's just my impression of it as a new soccer viewer.

J

Now you're getting it. Managing the clock is more about tempo and tactics than anything else. You can't "run plays" to kill the clock, and neither team has a monopoly on the ball as the possession changes hands so often. Furthermore, the fact is that the more you press on the ball to force that turnover, the more exposed you are in so many other areas. The closest analogy would probably be hockey, but the continuous clock coupled with no subs leads to some amazing finishes. Even finishes that don't change the scoreline can be remarkably exciting as one team throws wave after wave at the net while the team with the lead absorbs the pressure and tries to find an outlet. The drama is incredible, and the continuous clock is part of what amplifies the drama. If the clock stopped for any reason, that would diminish the intensity IMO.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

Five hour games, I can't wait

Dan Shaughnessy would love this. He thinks soccer is the poorer because it lacks commercials.

And lets face it, if an old white sports reporter does not have his finger on the pulse of what young sports fans want, no one does.

 

[Native]

I don't follow other sports threads on here.

Do people constantly try and offer opinions on how to fix other sports or are we just lucky?

Happens in every sport IMO.

Completely agree. Every NFL game thread in the Shark Pool consists of discussions about changing PI rules, revising replay challenges, revamping what is considered a fumble, etc. Happens in every sport. Don't know why people get so annoyed by these discussions in here. Newbie or longtime fan, I wish we would simply let people have their say.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Dumb question: For penalty kicks, what is the rough percentage for how many of those are made at a world class level like these guys are?

I think it is around 70% in the top Euro leagues.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

Five hour games, I can't wait

I will say, I LOVE the short time of the games. That part is a huge benefit of keeping time this way.

J

 

[Fariq]

Meh. Just like the NBA, you only have to watch the last 10 minutes of a soccer match.

I only watch the last three minutes of NFL games.

 

[The Z Machine]

Dumb question: For penalty kicks, what is the rough percentage for how many of those are made at a world class level like these guys are?

J

I'd say 90% or so for a top level league game. I think the number is actually a little lower in the world cup (80+% for sure) simply because of pressure, fatigue, and players not accustomed to that level of exposure. I'm sure that QG or NR could chime in with exact numbers. Lower than an NFL extra point.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Dumb question: For penalty kicks, what is the rough percentage for how many of those are made at a world class level like these guys are?

I think it is around 70% in the top Euro leagues.

Thanks.

J

 

[Native]

I don't follow other sports threads on here.

Do people constantly try and offer opinions on how to fix other sports or are we just lucky?

Couple of thoughts.

I agree with Rudnicki that it happens in every sport.

With that said, I get it that serious soccer fan doesn't like new people like me coming in and suggesting how to make their game better. That's already hugely popular without my input.

On the other hand, it seems the other sports fans are able to be thicker skinned in talking about it. Calling the current extra point stupid doesn't have NFL fans overly defensive as if you're attacking the game. The NFL especially seems actively interested in improving the game by rule tweaks. So the difference does seem interesting.



J

Couldn't agree more.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Dumb question: For penalty kicks, what is the rough percentage for how many of those are made at a world class level like these guys are?

J

I'd say 90% or so for a top level league game. I think the number is actually a little lower in the world cup (80+% for sure) simply because of pressure, fatigue, and players not accustomed to that level of exposure. I'm sure that QG or NR could chime in with exact numbers. Lower than an NFL extra point.

This is from 2010, but the general numbers are fine for this discussion

PKs Sh%

EPL 77.8

La Liga 73.8

Ligue 1 74.9

Serie A 78.7

Bundes 77.3

Overall 76.8

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

In the PK shootout yesterday between Brazil and Chile, they only converted 50% of them.

I don't think any others have been stopped/missed in the tournament though.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Dumb question: For penalty kicks, what is the rough percentage for how many of those are made at a world class level like these guys are?

I think it is around 70% in the top Euro leagues.

I'd love to see that broken out for penalties in the flow of a normal game with a dedicated shooter vs those at the end of a knockout game where five different guys have to shoot. Always seems like there are a lot more misses during shootouts, but I've never seen anything actually looking at the difference.

 

[The General]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

Five hour games, I can't wait

I will say, I LOVE the short time of the games. That part is a huge benefit of keeping time this way.

J

Agree with this. The only downside is the rush to the bathroom and getting drinks when watching at a bar.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Arguably surpassed Mexico in Concacaf, but Mexico brings it in the world cup.

If by "it" you mean round of sixteen exits - then yes.

-QG

 

[Sinn Fein]

I don't follow other sports threads on here.

Do people constantly try and offer opinions on how to fix other sports or are we just lucky?

Couple of thoughts.

I agree with Rudnicki that it happens in every sport.

With that said, I get it that serious soccer fan doesn't like new people like me coming in and suggesting how to make their game better. That's already hugely popular without my input.

On the other hand, it seems the other sports fans are able to be thicker skinned in talking about it. Calling the current extra point stupid doesn't have NFL fans overly defensive as if you're attacking the game. The NFL especially seems actively interested in improving the game by rule tweaks. So the difference does seem interesting.



J

Well I think the biggest difference in the discussion is that the NFL discussion is primarily among NFL fans. The soccer "tweaks" from folks not familiar with the game are less welcome. Its as if they are saying "we don't like your game, so why don't you adjust it for us?"

Having said that - these discussions happen all the time around soccer in terms of how to improve it. Changes happen slowly world-wide, but they happen. UEFA, for example, uses a referee on the end-line to help with calls in the box - might have made a difference in today's game. There are now rules that call for a red card and a penalty kick if there is a fouls on a clear goal scoring opportunity - harshest penalty in soccer. Offsides has been relaxed - "even is on".

Some things like the clock, and how players play the game are just part of the game. Hard to see those things changing drastically. I think many would be in favor of post-match review for obvious flops/embellishment but really it is much better in some parts of the world than others.

 

[Premier]

Ugh Greece. Feels like a chore.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Soccer should allow timeouts too.

Maybe allow multiple substitutions too. Stop the clock on change of possession to allow the players to switch in and out.

Five hour games, I can't wait

I will say, I LOVE the short time of the games. That part is a huge benefit of keeping time this way.

J

If you assume that added time after the 90 would roughly equate to the time you stop the clock and then end exactly at 90, the length of the games should not change.

The real danger (which pollutes many US sports) is that stopping the clock could lead to commercial breaks.

 

[El Floppo]

In the PK shootout yesterday between Brazil and Chile, they only converted 50% of them.

I don't think any others have been stopped/missed in the tournament though.

Pretty sure there have been a miss our two (france? )

 

[Sinn Fein]

In the PK shootout yesterday between Brazil and Chile, they only converted 50% of them.

I don't think any others have been stopped/missed in the tournament though.

There had been one saved in the run of the game. The difference between a PK in the game is that the team generally has one guy who is an excellent PK taker. Whereas in the shootout - you start with 5 players, 4 of which would not take them in the game, and the pressure is so much higher at that stage.

 

[Short Corner]

A big difference regarding rule changes is the American professional leagues tweak things every year so the "rules of the game" are always somewhat in flux and up for debate. FIFA doesn't seem interested in changing and maybe there's not as much need or demand to change either, so soccer rules stay pretty much the same.

It also may be that trying to make changes for one country is a lot easier to manage than trying to make changes for the entire world. If the NBA makes a rule change, it does not automatically mean FIBA will.

It is hard enough to sell a rule change to one countries set of fans but trying to do it to 200 different countries makes the variables explode.

Look at the shaving cream. It was arguably the simplest rule tweak ever and even then we had the Euro fans worried about it be ause they had no exposure to it. The EPL does not even want to adopt it next season.

NBA and FIBA are actually trying to align their rules. It's a give and take and moves pretty slowly but it is getting there.

 

[El Floppo]

Ugh Greece. Feels like a chore.

Played ok that last game when they really needed to. They need to today as well... could be a fun game. As with most of these, an early goal helps open things up

 

[The Z Machine]

Arguably surpassed Mexico in Concacaf, but Mexico brings it in the world cup.

If by "it" you mean round of sixteen exits - then yes.

-QG

LOL. True.

Don't tell me Mexico didn't bring it for 85 minutes today. I felt they were the better team up until about the 80th minute. Obviously the wheels fell off, but this Mexico team could have done damage if they had held on.