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***Official 2017-18 Hot Stove League Thread: Peter Bourjos & Ryan Flaherty are signs the end is near (2 Viewers)

5/80 seems like a lot for a 31 CF like Cain. He's a good ballplayer, hits for average, steals bases, plays good defense but those last two are going to fade in the next two years and then you are looking at another Jacoby Ellsbury. I think 4/60 would have been my limit.

That being said, the Brewers got two complete ballplayers in Yelich & Cain and the fanbase should be very excited.

 
shadyridr said:
That being said, the Brewers got two complete ballplayers in Yelich & Cain and the fanbase should be very excited.
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Agree, I'm interested to see what they do with Santana and curious why they are bailing on him. They must have something already in the hopper for a pitcher to pull off both those OF deals with Santana still rostered. 

We finally have some heat :popcorn:  

 
shadyridr said:
5/80 seems like a lot for a 31 CF like Cain. He's a good ballplayer, hits for average, steals bases, plays good defense but those last two are going to fade in the next two years and then you are looking at another Jacoby Ellsbury. I think 4/60 would have been my limit.

That being said, the Brewers got two complete ballplayers in Yelich & Cain and the fanbase should be very excited.
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The fifth year would worry me. I was thinking 4/70 might get him to Toronto, factoring in the Canada premium they'd have to pay but yeah the last couple years of that contract may be bad.

I guess they somewhat offset it by having Yelich at a favourable contract for the same years. 

 
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Alcides Escobar stays with KC for 1/$2.5M.

The price is right but I don't know what the Royals are doing with (or to) Raul Mondesi Jr.

 
Bill James is on MLB Network talking about the the Top Ten catchers.

It is distracting to notice that he wears his pants exactly like William Frawley in I Love Lucy. 

 
A's trade Hahn and a minor-league pitcher for Brandon Moss and soft-contact maestro Ryan Buchter. KC taking 3.5mm of Moss' 8.5mm salary, and Moss likely getting flipped elsewhere.

 
Hahn was out of options and probably has a better chance of making KC's 25 man roster than the A's.  Buchter is a good LOOGY if he can keep the ball in the ballpark

Moss isn't a star but he's been a useful left sided bat for many years.  The odd thing is KC seems to have more use for a guy like Moss than the Oaklands.  The current Royals lineup is heavily right handed and has no obvious 1B.  Maybe they're going to bring back Hosmer :shrug:

 
All winter, the Royals have said they need to get payroll down to $105-110MM.  The Moss trade gets them down to $113.7MM with Jason Hammel's $9MM (plus $12MM with a $2MM buyout in 2019) being shopped around.  They will make a payroll exception to keep Hosmer (rumor is they offered him $105MM over seven years), but Moss was never really in their 2018 plans.  

Royals hinting that Mondesi will start the season in Kansas City and play some SS, 2B, and CF.  Supposedly some grumblings that he doesn't walk enough, but there were about 53 SSs who drew more walks than Alcides Escobar did last season.          

 
Todd Frazier to Mets.  Two years, $17MM guaranteed, $500K trade kicker, other details yet to be released.

Mike Moustakas told "thanks but no thanks" by Cardinals, shows up at GPJ's house to measure his couch.   

 
Royals GM Dayton Moore was on a local sports talk radio show today.  Said signing Hosmer is a priority, they are still talking to his agent, Hosmer has expressed interest in staying.  

Would have liked Hosmer's chances of staying more if his girlfriend (TV reporter Kacie McDonnell) was still local, but she took a job with NESN about a year ago.  

Anyway, in the interview Moore hinted Moustakas and his representation weren't interested in coming back to the Royals.  Haven't ruled out re-signing Moose if he's still out there in a couple weeks, but they will wait until Hosmer makes up his mind before considering Moose.  

 

 
Hoping the Yankees can get Moose for 1yr/11mil or something. Seems like he's running out of other places to go. 

 
jfranco77 said:
Hoping the Yankees can get Moose for 1yr/11mil or something. Seems like he's running out of other places to go. 
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That will still cost the Yankees a 2nd and 5th round pick. Would they do that file line year of Moose? If a scenario like that we’re to happen, I think the Cardinals would sign him as they would only lose a 3rd round pick. Or he would just go back to KC, if that’s possible. 

Hell, if that’s what Moose is looking at, approach the lnduabs and I tell them to give me a 1/$15 contract. Move Jose Ramirez to OF, where they are thin. He gets a legitimate shot at another ring and hits free agency again next year. The Indians would have to give up a 3rd round pick for signing him, but you tell them that when he is a FA after 2018, you make him a qualifying offer, which he will decline. Then, when he signs with someone else, the Indians will get a compensatory sandwich pick. So they don’t technically lose a pick, it’s just pushed down the road a year. :)

i should be an agent!!!

 
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jfranco77 said:
Hoping the Yankees can get Moose for 1yr/11mil or something. Seems like he's running out of other places to go. 
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I'd prefer Neil Walker at this point.  Can play 2B, 3B, 1B.  Switch hitter.  Allows you to play whichever of Torres or Andujar is ready out the gate and can move into a utility role once both are ready.

 
How did the players go from Fehr and Orza to an ex player negotiating for them?  Was Tony Clark a legacy pick by Michael Weiner, who, to be kind, may have had a compromised intellect?

I'd rather have the worst lawyer in America than the smartest ex player negotiating a deal. If these guys go on strike its going to be ugly and its 100 percent on clark.  

 
Smack Tripper said:
How did the players go from Fehr and Orza to an ex player negotiating for them?  Was Tony Clark a legacy pick by Michael Weiner, who, to be kind, may have had a compromised intellect?

I'd rather have the worst lawyer in America than the smartest ex player negotiating a deal. If these guys go on strike its going to be ugly and its 100 percent on clark.  
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You know, everyone keeps blaming the owners but last I heard (unless they are lies) JD Martinez was offered a 5/125 contract, Hosmer 7/147, Darvish 5/100, and Cobb 3/42...

Offers are being made. They may be lower than the players and agents expected based on past history but they need to adapt and realize these may be the best offers they're gonna get. None of those offers are insulting.

 
I love how Alex Cobb is crying about how teams are tanking and this isn't good for the game.

Sorry buddy, that no one has been in a bidding war for a 30 year old right handed starting pitcher who has never thrown more than 170 innings in a year.  Sucks you're only probably going to get about $13-$15 million per year over the next four years instead of the $18-$20 million you feel you so richly deserve.

 
Smack Tripper said:
who negotiated this awful deal?  Players got abused in this deal, and Tony Clark's leadership is shades of Gene Upshaw
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IMO, what's going on has very little to do with the CBA. Teams are simply learning from the past and are smarter now. They're not going to Pujols / Ellsbury / Josh Hamilton themselves with horse#### contracts that take guys deep into their 30s. Especially the larger market / big money teams that are going to have to pay $1.25 per $1.00 for those contracts once they cross threshold. Go look at the number of PAs from 30+ players in the league year to year. Its dropping like a stone.

The only thing the union truly did wrong here is not getting a year of arb whacked. With the trend of teams going younger, unless you're the Mets, they need to maximize their players earning potential by allowing them to hit FA with more prime years available to them to negotiate with.

The days of paying players on past performance is done and I applaud the front offices for doing it.

 
Limp Ditka said:
IMO, what's going on has very little to do with the CBA. Teams are simply learning from the past and are smarter now. They're not going to Pujols / Ellsbury / Josh Hamilton themselves with horse#### contracts that take guys deep into their 30s. Especially the larger market / big money teams that are going to have to pay $1.25 per $1.00 for those contracts once they cross threshold. Go look at the number of PAs from 30+ players in the league year to year. Its dropping like a stone.

The only thing the union truly did wrong here is not getting a year of arb whacked. With the trend of teams going younger, unless you're the Mets, they need to maximize their players earning potential by allowing them to hit FA with more prime years available to them to negotiate with.

The days of paying players on past performance is done and I applaud the front offices for doing it.
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They have in effect put a cap on what these teams can spend by making the penalty so punitive.  The Yanks are in major win now mode and it would be malpractice for them to get Darvish given what we would do to their salary situation.  This was incredibly poor foresight and when you have the Dodgers working to get to that same plateau.  You are taking players out of the game, Yanks would also be in on Moustakas without the penalty.  But even in win now mode, they are out.  

 
Smack Tripper said:
They have in effect put a cap on what these teams can spend by making the penalty so punitive.  The Yanks are in major win now mode and it would be malpractice for them to get Darvish given what we would do to their salary situation.  This was incredibly poor foresight and when you have the Dodgers working to get to that same plateau.  You are taking players out of the game, Yanks would also be in on Moustakas without the penalty.  But even in win now mode, they are out.  
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Says the bitter, suddenly cash-strapped Yankees fan.

Yet after last year, the MLBPA trumpeted the fact that the average MLB salary went up 3.3% last year and crossed $4m per year for the first time. And this still happened while the average MLB player was younger than anytime this century. You're not taking players out of the game. There will still be the same number of players on the same number of teams. The demographics of those players are just changing and rightfully so. And with the younger players coming in, you're going to see them maximizing their earning potential even sooner, even without getting rid of a year of arb, by starting the clock earlier.

 
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Limp Ditka said:
IMO, what's going on has very little to do with the CBA. Teams are simply learning from the past and are smarter now. They're not going to Pujols / Ellsbury / Josh Hamilton themselves with horse#### contracts that take guys deep into their 30s. Especially the larger market / big money teams that are going to have to pay $1.25 per $1.00 for those contracts once they cross threshold. Go look at the number of PAs from 30+ players in the league year to year. Its dropping like a stone.

The only thing the union truly did wrong here is not getting a year of arb whacked. With the trend of teams going younger, unless you're the Mets, they need to maximize their players earning potential by allowing them to hit FA with more prime years available to them to negotiate with.

The days of paying players on past performance is done and I applaud the front offices for doing it.
Click to expand...
This would be fine if they paid players for current performance but salaries are artificially limited so much for players first 7 years that past performance is often the only way they get anywhere close to their actual market value for their career. It has everything to do with the CBA. It's not teams being smart, it's teams putting in a system through the CBA that let's them pay peanuts for players in their prime years and then say they're not paying for past performance once those years have passed.

 
Northern Voice said:
This would be fine if they paid players for current performance but salaries are artificially limited so much for players first 7 years that past performance is often the only way they get anywhere close to their actual market value for their career. It has everything to do with the CBA. It's not teams being smart, it's teams putting in a system through the CBA that let's them pay peanuts for players in their prime years and then say they're not paying for past performance once those years have passed.
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Yet Bryant, Springer and Betts just got bank during their early arb years. Trout woukdn't have hit FA until next year, but he's already making $34 per. The money's there and its going to continue to be there, its just getting distributed differently. If there is any set back to that this year, due to a crappy, flawed FA pool, its going to be corrected and then some next year.

 
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Limp Ditka said:
Yet Bryant, Springer and Betts just got bank during their early arb years. Trout woukdn't have hit FA until next year, but he's already making $34 per. The money's there and its going to continue to be there, its just getting distributed differently. If there is any set back to that this year, due to a crappy, flawed FA pool, its going to be corrected and then some next year.
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Springer signed for 2/$24M. He gets $25M a season at least in an open market. He's already been worth 15 wins in his career and has made $7.9 million. He's been worth, conservatively $100 million so far in his career.

After 2019, he'll have earned $31.9M and probably have been worth $160M. He'll be 31 then and have a $130M deficit in fair career earnings to make up and he's still ARB eligible in 2020. 

After 2020, he'll still have that $130M deficit in earnings to make up but now he's 32 and MLB having underpaid him by $130M to date will look at him and say "aging curve", "past performance", etc... 

 
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Smack Tripper said:
who negotiated this awful deal?  Players got abused in this deal, and Tony Clark's leadership is shades of Gene Upshaw
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There's nothing wrong with the deal. As a matter of fact, the removal of "losing a first round pick" for players who are signed after receiving a Qualifying Offer was a win for the players. The change to the luxury tax cap only hurts two or three teams.

 
Limp Ditka said:
IMO, what's going on has very little to do with the CBA. Teams are simply learning from the past and are smarter now. They're not going to Pujols / Ellsbury / Josh Hamilton themselves with horse#### contracts that take guys deep into their 30s. Especially the larger market / big money teams that are going to have to pay $1.25 per $1.00 for those contracts once they cross threshold. Go look at the number of PAs from 30+ players in the league year to year. Its dropping like a stone.

The only thing the union truly did wrong here is not getting a year of arb whacked. With the trend of teams going younger, unless you're the Mets, they need to maximize their players earning potential by allowing them to hit FA with more prime years available to them to negotiate with.

The days of paying players on past performance is done and I applaud the front offices for doing it.
Click to expand...
It has a lot to do with the CBA.  The Union basically let the Owners implement a salary cap with this luxury tax nonsense while at the same time limiting the amount of money they can spend on the draft and in international FA.  They took a freaking bath because their idiot in charge was more concerned about creature comforts being a former player than getting the players their deserved piece of the pie.  Look at this chart of real payroll vs real revenue...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUQ_FZtUQAAfCgM.jpg:large

You telling me that's the way it should be?  That 2/3 of the league should be spending less than 47% of revenue on salary?

 
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Northern Voice said:
Springer signed for 2/$24M. He gets $25M a season at least in an open market. He's already been worth 15 wins in his career and has made $7.9 million. He's been worth, conservatively $100 million so far in his career.

After 2019, he'll have earned $31.9M and probably have been worth $160M. He'll be 31 then and have a $130M deficit in fair career earnings to make up and he's still ARB eligible in 2020. 

After 2020, he'll still have that $130M deficit in earnings to make up but now he's 32 and MLB having underpaid him by $130M to date will look at him and say "aging curve", "past performance", etc... 
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They definitely need to remove a year of arbitration. Thats really the only change I think that makes sense. But this is a recent phenomenon. Its not like players were clamoring for that in the last CBA.

 
Limp Ditka said:
Yet Bryant, Springer and Betts just got bank during their early arb years. Trout woukdn't have hit FA until next year, but he's already making $34 per. The money's there and its going to continue to be there, its just getting distributed differently. If there is any set back to that this year, due to a crappy, flawed FA pool, its going to be corrected and then some next year.
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No.  They're vastly underpaid relative to their value.  Vastly.

 
shadyridr said:
There's nothing wrong with the deal. As a matter of fact, the removal of "losing a first round pick" for players who are signed after receiving a Qualifying Offer was a win for the players. The change to the luxury tax cap only hurts two or three teams.
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Right.  Having the Dodgers and Yankees sit out on all the major FAs is a great thing for the players.  Sure.

 
rodg12 said:
No.  They're vastly underpaid relative to their value.  Vastly.
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Then give me your suggestion as to how these guys get paid. I mean Springer got a $2.52 million dollar signing bonus before playing a minor league game. Bryant $6.7. Betts as a 5th got $750K. Obviously these guys are the exception to the rule, but just because they're not getting what you perceive as market value for a MLB player doesn't mean they've been cheated throughout the whole process

 
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Limp Ditka said:
Then give me your suggestion as to how these guys get paid. I mean Springer got a $2.52 million dollar signing bonus before playing a minor league game. Bryant $6.7. Betts as a 5th got $750K. Obviously these guys are the exception to the rule, but just because they're not getting what you perceive as market value for a MLB player doesn't meant they've been cheated throughout the whole process
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Free Agents after 4 years of team control if the owners insist on keeping the current status quo relative to luxury tax, amateur spending caps and the like.  Oh, and we're going to need a salary floor as well that increases at the same rate as the luxury tax.

 
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