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***Official 2017 NCAA Hoops Tourney thread: Congrats UNC, all the refs from NCCG should be banned for life*** (4 Viewers)

Uruk-Hai said:
I may have posted this before, but Mason prepped in the town I live in (I can hear the revelry trumpets from my back deck each morning and evening - it's that close to my house). I saw him play live the year before he went to Kansas, only because I wanted to see what Maryland was getting in his teammate Damonte Dodd. I don't remember a whole lot of Mason's plays in that game, mainly because Massenutten was dunking most of the time on that poor opponent. I think the final was like 140-50. All five starters had D1 scholarships. Massenutten shut the hoops program down the next year (lack of money was the official line), but started it back up this year and are loaded again.

Anyway, it was apparent watching him back then that Mason was good, but I never thought I was watching a  NCAA NPOY candidate. He has to go down as one of the best players in KU history right? 
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Frank Mason is top 5 in my opinion - behind Danny Manning and Wilt Chamberlin, then it is a bit more up in the air.  

 
fantasycurse42 said:
The Ducks just look so good and I would not be surprised to see Dorsey hang 30 next week. Go Heels, but this team is scary - if they're on, I don't know how any of the other 3 can beat them. What they did to Kansas was pretty amazing, that Kansas team looked like the real deal and they just throttled them.
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Dorsey has really evolved this past 3 weeks.  He was a very good shooter when left open but now he has been making contested threes with a man in his face.  Brooks was the conference player of the year  and used to make all the clutch shots but now with two options it is tough to guard.  I expect Oregon to score on North Carolina but the disadvantage they have is inside.  NC will control the rebounds and offensive rebounds against the Ducks match up zone is their weakness.  Also, Ducks free throw shooting is a weakness and it hasn't come back to haunt them yet.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Dorsey has really evolved this past 3 weeks.  He was a very good shooter when left open but now he has been making contested threes with a man in his face.  Brooks was the conference player of the year  and used to make all the clutch shots but now with two options it is tough to guard.  I expect Oregon to score on North Carolina but the disadvantage they have is inside.  NC will control the rebounds and offensive rebounds against the Ducks match up zone is their weakness.  Also, Ducks free throw shooting is a weakness and it hasn't come back to haunt them yet.
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The change in Dorsey's game has been amazing the past month.  I used to get so frustrated with him, largely because he isn't a great athlete and he's always struggled to finish at the rim, and he would just disappear for games at a time.  He's had games of 2, 7, 6, 0, 7, 4, 5, and 1 point this year.  But ever since putting up that 1 point game against OSU in the regular season finale, he's been a completely different guy.  Combined with how Bell has been playing, all of a sudden the Pac-12 player of the year is our third best player!

Totally agree on the UNC advantage inside.  Bell will have to play like he did this weekend, and KBW (worst hands in the tourney) is going to have to contribute a little when Bell sits. Oregon's wings are going to have to rebound well in this one.   When the Ducks go 2-3 zone, they often end up with Ennis at one of the lower wing spots, and while he's built like a tank he still gets overmatched on the boards or when the opponent recognizes a mis-match.  This could be the game where not having Boucher's 6 boards/2.5 blocks finally catches up to them....but I hope not!

 
sporthenry said:
This SC team is impressive.  I do wonder how they lost 10 games.  Guess their offense is kicking in at the right time and running into teams (apart from Florida) who haven't seen this defense has really helped.  
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3 of those losses were when Thornwell was suspended for 6 games. 3 more were on the road to tourney teams, Kentucky, Florida, and Vandy. A loss at home to a pretty good tourney team in Arkansas and a few stinkers mixed in.

 
Interesting that we get UNC/Oregon now, when it seemed like that should have been the final going into Maui earlier in the year. Obviously, hoping the Heels pull it out, but it should be the best game of the 2 on Saturday. If the Heels stay out of foul trouble and Berry is close to full strength, I think they should win this one.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Agreed.  How many of these guys were highly recruited players?  Was Thornwell coming out of HS?
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One more thing on this is that when sophomore Chris Silva got to campus he only had 3 years of playing basketball under his belt. He was very raw. He has improved tremendously in the 2 years he's been a Gamecock. He's very athletic and has a pretty good looking shot. If he keeps improving like he has been there's no reason that he can't make the NBA in another year or 2.

 
In The Zone said:
One more thing on this is that when sophomore Chris Silva got to campus he only had 3 years of playing basketball under his belt. He was very raw. He has improved tremendously in the 2 years he's been a Gamecock. He's very athletic and has a pretty good looking shot. If he keeps improving like he has been there's no reason that he can't make the NBA in another year or 2.
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He's  got to stop fouling so much.

 
PlasmaDogPlasma said:
He's  got to stop fouling so much.
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No doubt. 10 disqualifications in a season is way too many. Coach Martin said earlier in the season that he didn't know what else to do with him. They pound that fact in his head and show him all of the tape where he is committing bad fouls but it wouldn't sink in. He would have games where he would only play 12 minutes due to picking up 2 early fouls and then picking up early fouls in the second half. It appears as though he got a reputation with the SEC officials as the season went on. He would start getting phantom fouls in some games which would put the team at a disadvantage.

 
MattFancy said:
Interesting that we get UNC/Oregon now, when it seemed like that should have been the final going into Maui earlier in the year. Obviously, hoping the Heels pull it out, but it should be the best game of the 2 on Saturday. If the Heels stay out of foul trouble and Berry is close to full strength, I think they should win this one.
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My confidence is low.

Justin Jackson and Berry need to play better than they did yesterday. Luke has steadily improved all year, but they can't rely on him to be the difference. Theo played great in the last minute of the game, but he can't make the same horrible mistakes he made earlier in the game. IIRC, it was like 3 unforced turnovers in like a 3 or 4 minute stretch, really sloppy.

Berry and stupid fouls make me nervous, the Duke ACC Tourney game is the perfect example of what happens to this team when Berry sits and Britt comes in for an extended period of time. I think his ankle will be fine.

I really love what Meeks has been doing this tournament - if he dominates the glass, that will prob give them an edge. If JJ/Berry play slightly above average, Meeks could be the X factor in this game. 

Read an article projecting Justin Jackson as a lotto pick on SB Nation today, he is really climbing the draft boards. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
My confidence is low.

Justin Jackson and Berry need to play better than they did yesterday. Luke has steadily improved all year, but they can't rely on him to be the difference. Theo played great in the last minute of the game, but he can't make the same horrible mistakes he made earlier in the game. IIRC, it was like 3 unforced turnovers in like a 3 or 4 minute stretch, really sloppy.

Berry and stupid fouls make me nervous, the Duke ACC Tourney game is the perfect example of what happens to this team when Berry sits and Britt comes in for an extended period of time. I think his ankle will be fine.

I really love what Meeks has been doing this tournament - if he dominates the glass, that will prob give them an edge. If JJ/Berry play slightly above average, Meeks could be the X factor in this game. 

Read an article projecting Justin Jackson as a lotto pick on SB Nation today, he is really climbing the draft boards. 
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Jackson has been alright. Berry is the biggest one that needs to play well. If Berry is still slowed down by the ankles, I don't have a ton of confidence. I hate seeing Nate Britt come into the game. He just plays so out of control and takes dumb shots. I'd rather Stillman come in than Britt.

Meeks, Hicks, and Bradley can eat up the glass and give them the advantage there.

The biggest problem with this team the last few weeks is foul trouble. Believe Kentucky was already in the bonus with 12 minutes or so to play in the 1st half yesterday. Can't come committing dumb fouls. Especially with the guards since that is where the depth is weakest on this team.

 
Uruk-Hai said:
I may have posted this before, but Mason prepped in the town I live in (I can hear the revelry trumpets from my back deck each morning and evening - it's that close to my house). I saw him play live the year before he went to Kansas, only because I wanted to see what Maryland was getting in his teammate Damonte Dodd. I don't remember a whole lot of Mason's plays in that game, mainly because Massenutten was dunking most of the time on that poor opponent. I think the final was like 140-50. All five starters had D1 scholarships. Massenutten shut the hoops program down the next year (lack of money was the official line), but started it back up this year and are loaded again.

Anyway, it was apparent watching him back then that Mason was good, but I never thought I was watching a  NCAA NPOY candidate. He has to go down as one of the best players in KU history right? 
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Mason is 6th in career scoring among Jayhawks.  Manning is waaaay out in front, then Collison, LaFrentz, Lovellette, Mason finished three points behind Sherron Collins.  (Wilt only played two seasons so his aggregate numbers aren't up there; Pierce played three but wasn't that great his freshman year.)   A lot of Mason's lofty finish in career points is thanks to era: longer schedule with easier travel, faster pace with shot clock, more guard scoring opportunity with three-point line, freshman eligibility allowed four varsity seasons.  

Hard to compare across eras, but he's gotta be a top-3 guard in the Self era with Sherron Collins and Mario Chalmers.  Only Roy Williams-era guards I'd consider ahead of Mason are Hinrich and Vaughn.  And from pre-shotclock players probably behind JoJo and comparable with Valentine.  That's pretty lofty status for a program as old as the game itself.            
 

 
What I have really liked about this tourney is the team with the last possession to tie or win not calling a TO and drawing up a play that usually breaks down the second the ball is inbounded.. like an NBA team would.  Kentucky makes the big basket to tie and is all pumped..then NC inbounds and pushes it fast the other way  before the defense is totally set and gets an open jumper to win.  Roy Williams said calling a TO at that point only helps the defensive team set. 

 
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MattFancy said:
Jackson has been alright. Berry is the biggest one that needs to play well. If Berry is still slowed down by the ankles, I don't have a ton of confidence. I hate seeing Nate Britt come into the game. He just plays so out of control and takes dumb shots. I'd rather Stillman come in than Britt.

Meeks, Hicks, and Bradley can eat up the glass and give them the advantage there.

The biggest problem with this team the last few weeks is foul trouble. Believe Kentucky was already in the bonus with 12 minutes or so to play in the 1st half yesterday. Can't come committing dumb fouls. Especially with the guards since that is where the depth is weakest on this team.
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Jackson's shot selection is my only gripe with the guy. Berry didn't look like the ankle was an issue and he has a week to rest it. Fouls are def a concern. Really only Berry for me, I don't remember Jackson getting into any foul trouble this season. If Berry doesn't get his full slate of minutes, they can't win. I don't want to see Nate Britt anymore, whenever he comes into the game I cringe. 

They should dominate the glass, really don't see a win without them doing that. Meeks was a monster yesterday, and with Berry/Jackson going 1/10 from deep, it was a necessity. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Jackson's shot selection is my only gripe with the guy. Berry didn't look like the ankle was an issue and he has a week to rest it. Fouls are def a concern. Really only Berry for me, I don't remember Jackson getting into any foul trouble this season. If Berry doesn't get his full slate of minutes, they can't win. I don't want to see Nate Britt anymore, whenever he comes into the game I cringe. 

They should dominate the glass, really don't see a win without them doing that. Meeks was a monster yesterday, and with Berry/Jackson going 1/10 from deep, it was a necessity. 
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If they can't win on the boards, then they have to shoot much better than they did yesterday. They can afford those crappy percentages from 3 when they can corral the offensive rebounds and get put backs.

 
MattFancy said:
If they can't win on the boards, then they have to shoot much better than they did yesterday. They can afford those crappy percentages from 3 when they can corral the offensive rebounds and get put backs.
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When Meeks arrived at UNC, I always thought he was going to develop into a monster and have an NBA career, he certainly has the size to do it. The way JJ has developed from his soph to jr. year, I thought Meeks was going to do that last year, obviously never happened. 

Yesterday is what I had always expected out of the guy. If they get that play from him again next week, they're a real tough out. 5 offensive boards, 17 in total, 4 blocks - he was a monster in there. Add in some assists, 3-4 from the FT line... He played excellent.

 
tdoss said:
Just saying...drop Kansas in the ACC.

Are they winning 13 ACC titles in a row, ever?

Even with two days to prepare for each game...he ain't winning that many.

And therefore not being gifted a #1 seed almost every year because of it.
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If you're asking me to agree with the completely uncontroversial statement that the Big XII hasn't been as good as the ACC over the last 13 years, I wholeheartedly agree with that.  It's a far cry from your earlier point, but yeah I agree with that.  But if winning the conference every year is so easy, why hasn't anyone else done it?  Kentucky never did it.  UNLV and Gonzaga couldn't do it.  Princeton never did it.  UCLA could only tie it, and that was when they were winning the national title almost every year.    

In the Self era, Kansas has been a 1-seed 7 times, a 2-seed three times, 3-seed twice, 4-seed twice.  (One of those 4-seeds was his first year in Lawrence, the year he didn't win a conference title).  That's one more 1-seed than Duke over the same time frame.  Kansas schedules aggressively out-of-conference with several neutral site and actually plays true road games voluntarily.  From 2012-2016, they were a top 20 NCSOS in KenPom.  That's the real secret behind their seeding.  (nonconference tailed off a bit this season; they skipped their usual east coast roadie because the Champions Classic was in New York, scheduled at UNLV but they fell off a cliff, playing Indiana neutral seemed like a big deal at the time but they fell apart)  Kansas was a 1-seed this year because they won a conference by 4 games that had a 3-, 4-, and 5-seed, beat one OOC 2-seed on the road and another OOC 2-seed on a neutral court.    

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
 And from pre-shotclock players probably behind JoJo and comparable with Valentine.          
 
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This line made me smile - my dad (Oregon undergrad and KU PhD) tutored JoJo back in the day, and I grew up in Portland with season tix to the Blazers and saw the first several years of Valentine's career.  

fantasycurse42 said:
When Meeks arrived at UNC, I always thought he was going to develop into a monster and have an NBA career, he certainly has the size to do it. The way JJ has developed from his soph to jr. year, I thought Meeks was going to do that last year, obviously never happened. 

Yesterday is what I had always expected out of the guy. If they get that play from him again next week, they're a real tough out. 5 offensive boards, 17 in total, 4 blocks - he was a monster in there. Add in some assists, 3-4 from the FT line... He played excellent.
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Completely agree - Oregon is going to have a real hard time keeping him off the glass.

 
SFBayDuck said:
This line made me smile - my dad (Oregon undergrad and KU PhD) tutored JoJo back in the day, and I grew up in Portland with season tix to the Blazers and saw the first several years of Valentine's career.  

Completely agree - Oregon is going to have a real hard time keeping him off the glass.
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Just looked through his game log, he had 8 or less rebounds in all but two of their losses, the GT game being the anomaly (I don't consider the second Duke loss an anomaly because Berry sat for 10 minutes after picking up his 4th foul 5 minutes into the 2nd half). 

Against UK in their earlier loss, he only had 7, he had 17 yesterday. 

Meeks needs double digit rebounds.

 
SFBayDuck said:
This line made me smile - my dad (Oregon undergrad and KU PhD) tutored JoJo back in the day, and I grew up in Portland with season tix to the Blazers and saw the first several years of Valentine's career.  
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Nice!  There are still KU superfans who will yell "he was in bounds!" when JoJo shows up on highlight reels or walking by a photo of him at Allen.  But I suppose if the ref agreed and let the shot count, Texas Western doesn't go on to win the title and make history.  
JoJo had a brain tumor a few years ago and hasn't quite been the same since.  His off-court legacies are programs targeting middle schoolers that help kids establishing good habits before high school, and after his tumor he's gotten involved with fundraising and awareness for brain cancer research.  So, thanks to your dad for tutoring JoJo - that investment paid off by many multiples, and JoJo paid it forward.  
Valentine was the last great player of the Ted Owens era.  Owens wasn't ready for the game going vertical and got left behind - his last few seasons, Wichita State was killing Owens on the recruiting trail, a sign he needed to go.  Then KU hired Larry Brown to replace him, Brown suspiciously hired no-experience Ed Manning as an assistant, got Ed's son to stay in Lawrence after graduation, turned Greg Dreiling into an NBA prospect... and the program has been fine ever since.

Excellent call on Marin County.  Been fortunate to spend a lot of leisure time in California the last couple years, Marin County is beautiful.  My wife loves Sausalito.  Stinson Beach was one of our favorite beaches on the whole coast. 

 
SFBayDuck said:
This line made me smile - my dad (Oregon undergrad and KU PhD) tutored JoJo back in the day, and I grew up in Portland with season tix to the Blazers and saw the first several years of Valentine's career.  

Completely agree - Oregon is going to have a real hard time keeping him off the glass.
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Valentine works out at Club Sport in Tualatin, which is where my boss goes every day at 1pm.  I wouldn't say he and Darnell are close friends, but they interact all the time and he says Darnell is really nice, will talk to anybody.  Loves the ladies!

 
General Malaise said:
Valentine works out at Club Sport in Tualatin, which is where my boss goes every day at 1pm.  I wouldn't say he and Darnell are close friends, but they interact all the time and he says Darnell is really nice, will talk to anybody.  Loves the ladies!
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KU hosts an alumni game every fall right around when practice starts.  Usually it's a chance for former players from the previous 4-5 years to sign autographs one more time and maybe audition for overseas pro leagues.  But a few years ago when the NBA was in lockout, Pierce and Chalmers got a lot of the former Jayhawks in the NBA to come back to Lawrence and play in the game.  Valentine also signed up to play, a bold decision given his senior year at KU was 1981, and was in the same NBA Draft class as Mark Aguirre and Isiah Thomas.     

Valentine started (IIRC, the starting fives were Valentine, Pierce, Collison, and the Morris twins against Chalmers, Brandon Rush, Wayne Simien, Julian Wright, and Cole Aldrich) played the first 4-5 minutes, and you saw his age when the game flowed end-to-end.  But in halfcourt, he still had it.  The consensus review of his performance from the other players was, "if I'm still moving around like that in my 50s, I'll be really happy."

 
Saw this on Twitter ... Five of the last seven Kansas State coaches now will have coached in the FF at another school:

Martin

Altman

Weber (Illinois)

Huggins (Cincy, WV)

Kruger (Florida, Oklahoma)

 
Look-ahead championship lines (via 5D):

Oregon (-2) vs South Carolina

North Carolina (-6.5) vs South Carolina

Gonzaga (-3) vs Oregon

North Carolina (-2) vs Gonzaga

 
General Malaise said:
Valentine works out at Club Sport in Tualatin, which is where my boss goes every day at 1pm.  I wouldn't say he and Darnell are close friends, but they interact all the time and he says Darnell is really nice, will talk to anybody.  Loves the ladies!
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Does he just do leg extensions and hamstring curls all day?

 
Flight booked, and just got confirmation of Final Four tickets received!  Considering it's been 78 years, this may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!

 
Here's how some major metrics-based brackets are doing through Week 2.  


Bracket


 Percentile


Chalk


98%


Vegas Futures


98%


Kenpom


89%


Sagarin


84%


Nate Silver(538)


82%


ESPN BPI


82%


RPI


50%



TLDR:  Chalk and Vegas doing very well, Kenpom close behind.  RPI is ####.  

 
Dickie Dunn said:
Saw this on Twitter ... Five of the last seven Kansas State coaches now will have coached in the FF at another school:

Martin

Altman

Weber (Illinois)

Huggins (Cincy, WV)

Kruger (Florida, Oklahoma)
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:goodposting: I've heard and seen K-State fans lamenting this list, and regret over letting Martin go.

Other former K-State players the program missed out on as future coaches include Bill Guthridge (got to Final Four as UNC head coach) and Gene Keady (Kansas native, coached high school and community college level in Kansas before joining Eddie Sutton's staff at Arkansas).  Though it's probably unfair to blame K-State for missing out on Keady - when Keady was ready to take over his own program, Jack Hartman had the program in very good shape and K-State wasn't looking to hire someone with no D-I head coaching experience.

 
Scoresman said:
Here's how some major metrics-based brackets are doing through Week 2.  


Bracket


 Percentile


Chalk


98%


Vegas Futures


98%


Kenpom


89%


Sagarin


84%


Nate Silver(538)


82%


ESPN BPI


82%


RPI


50%



TLDR:  Chalk and Vegas doing very well, Kenpom close behind.  RPI is ####.  
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Looks like the TSC did a good job marginalizing RPI when it was time to seed the field.  Chalk is 98th percentile.

 
SFBayDuck said:
Flight booked, and just got confirmation of Final Four tickets received!  Considering it's been 78 years, this may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!
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Have a blast.  Nothing like a Final Four.  I rolled the dice and went in 1999 and my UConn Huskies pulled off the huge upset. Best weekend of my life.

Go Ducks!  Win the day!

 
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Higgs said:
Have a blast.  Nothing like a Final Four.  I rolled the dice and went in 1999 and my UConn Huskies pulled off the huge upset. Best weekend of my life.

Go Ducks!  Win the day!
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Ya, they're a blast. I was able to attend the Final 4 that had Michigan St., Illinois, UNC, and Lousiville. UNC beat Michigan State, Louisville beat Illinois, and then UNC beat Louisville. I was there as a client of a huge Michigan State fan/alum but the atmosphere was electric. This was at the TWA Dome in St. Louis. They didn't serve alcohol so there's that.

Worked to my advantage though as a bunch of people who wanted to get their drink on skipped the first game and I was able to work my way down to about 4 rows from the court and then do pretty much the same ( a little higher up - not much, but at dead center court) for the second game when the first game's fans left. Ended up sitting right next to actress Gina Gershon and Vince Vaughn was a couple rows in front of me.

 
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SFBayDuck said:
Flight booked, and just got confirmation of Final Four tickets received!  Considering it's been 78 years, this may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!
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Awesome!  I have my tickets as well and plan on getting over there around 2 on Saturday after my son's little league game.  Can't fricken wait.

 
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