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***Official 2023 Pro Cycling Thread*** - The Vuelta will be a Primoz, Vigo, G, Remco mosh pit (2 Viewers)

Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I have questions:

If Tadej has three teammates pulling up the mountain ahead of him, and Vino is sitting 5th on Pogacar's wheel -- how is Vino disadvantaged by not having teammates? Isn't he benefitting from UAE's train just like Pogacar? This one has always bugged me.

Why is UAE not chasing down these breakaways? I don't recall this ever happening before on a consistent basis. Especially on mountain stages.

If it comes down to the last time trial, who's the stronger rider in that discipline?

Last, is Roglic competitive with these two? If he were in the race could he win?
Click to expand...
1. It's not. This whole team thing is blown out of proportion because there's nothing else to talk about. The only advantage is if he has a mechanical and can change bikes.

2. Because everyone has given up on the GC. It's really just a race for scraps. The early hill stages blew open this tour right at the start. They usually have to worry about guys in the break a few minutes back, most of the break guys are alreay over 30 mins back.

3. Vino, but it's close.

4. Yes. A Vino, Pogi, Remco, Roglic tour would have been awesome. Maybe next year.
 
BassNBrew said:
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I have questions:

If Tadej has three teammates pulling up the mountain ahead of him, and Vino is sitting 5th on Pogacar's wheel -- how is Vino disadvantaged by not having teammates? Isn't he benefitting from UAE's train just like Pogacar? This one has always bugged me.

Why is UAE not chasing down these breakaways? I don't recall this ever happening before on a consistent basis. Especially on mountain stages.

If it comes down to the last time trial, who's the stronger rider in that discipline?

Last, is Roglic competitive with these two? If he were in the race could he win?
Click to expand...
1. It's not. This whole team thing is blown out of proportion because there's nothing else to talk about. The only advantage is if he has a mechanical and can change bikes.

2. Because everyone has given up on the GC. It's really just a race for scraps. The early hill stages blew open this tour right at the start. They usually have to worry about guys in the break a few minutes back, most of the break guys are alreay over 30 mins back.

3. Vino, but it's close.

4. Yes. A Vino, Pogi, Remco, Roglic tour would have been awesome. Maybe next year.
Click to expand...
Alternately: UAE screwed it up today ;)
 
BassNBrew said:
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I have questions:

If Tadej has three teammates pulling up the mountain ahead of him, and Vino is sitting 5th on Pogacar's wheel -- how is Vino disadvantaged by not having teammates? Isn't he benefitting from UAE's train just like Pogacar? This one has always bugged me.

Why is UAE not chasing down these breakaways? I don't recall this ever happening before on a consistent basis. Especially on mountain stages.

If it comes down to the last time trial, who's the stronger rider in that discipline?

Last, is Roglic competitive with these two? If he were in the race could he win?
Click to expand...
1. It's not. This whole team thing is blown out of proportion because there's nothing else to talk about. The only advantage is if he has a mechanical and can change bikes.

2. Because everyone has given up on the GC. It's really just a race for scraps. The early hill stages blew open this tour right at the start. They usually have to worry about guys in the break a few minutes back, most of the break guys are alreay over 30 mins back.

3. Vino, but it's close.

4. Yes. A Vino, Pogi, Remco, Roglic tour would have been awesome. Maybe next year.
Click to expand...
On number 1, I concurr unless you can have mulitple people from one team attack the solo, like happened last year (unsuccesfully) a few times with Roglic and Vino against Pogacar.
 
Nick Vermeil said:
BassNBrew said:
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I have questions:

If Tadej has three teammates pulling up the mountain ahead of him, and Vino is sitting 5th on Pogacar's wheel -- how is Vino disadvantaged by not having teammates? Isn't he benefitting from UAE's train just like Pogacar? This one has always bugged me.

Why is UAE not chasing down these breakaways? I don't recall this ever happening before on a consistent basis. Especially on mountain stages.

If it comes down to the last time trial, who's the stronger rider in that discipline?

Last, is Roglic competitive with these two? If he were in the race could he win?
Click to expand...
1. It's not. This whole team thing is blown out of proportion because there's nothing else to talk about. The only advantage is if he has a mechanical and can change bikes.

2. Because everyone has given up on the GC. It's really just a race for scraps. The early hill stages blew open this tour right at the start. They usually have to worry about guys in the break a few minutes back, most of the break guys are alreay over 30 mins back.

3. Vino, but it's close.

4. Yes. A Vino, Pogi, Remco, Roglic tour would have been awesome. Maybe next year.
Click to expand...
On number 1, I concurr unless you can have mulitple people from one team attack the solo, like happened last year (unsuccesfully) a few times with Roglic and Vino against Pogacar.
Click to expand...
Yes, 100%. Unfortunately everyone knows they aren't in the same zip code as Vino and Pogi.
 
 
Jaysus said:
BassNBrew said:
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I have questions:

If Tadej has three teammates pulling up the mountain ahead of him, and Vino is sitting 5th on Pogacar's wheel -- how is Vino disadvantaged by not having teammates? Isn't he benefitting from UAE's train just like Pogacar? This one has always bugged me.

Why is UAE not chasing down these breakaways? I don't recall this ever happening before on a consistent basis. Especially on mountain stages.

If it comes down to the last time trial, who's the stronger rider in that discipline?

Last, is Roglic competitive with these two? If he were in the race could he win?
Click to expand...
1. It's not. This whole team thing is blown out of proportion because there's nothing else to talk about. The only advantage is if he has a mechanical and can change bikes.

2. Because everyone has given up on the GC. It's really just a race for scraps. The early hill stages blew open this tour right at the start. They usually have to worry about guys in the break a few minutes back, most of the break guys are alreay over 30 mins back.

3. Vino, but it's close.

4. Yes. A Vino, Pogi, Remco, Roglic tour would have been awesome. Maybe next year.
Click to expand...
Alternately: UAE screwed it up today ;)
Click to expand...
I don’t know if they screwed it up, Pogo got max seconds on a 4 second gap with the 4 bonus seconds. :wink:

I think it’s pretty clear that the top train of UAE isn’t as good as Jumbo when Jumbo wants to train it and these one big climb stages are always susceptible to one guy in the break being able to TT up climb for 45 minutes which Kwiatkowski can do if they more or less hide in the break until then.
 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
If Tadej has three teammates pulling up the mountain ahead of him, and Vino is sitting 5th on Pogacar's wheel -- how is Vino disadvantaged by not having teammates? Isn't he benefitting from UAE's train just like Pogacar? This one has always bugged me.
Click to expand...

In the mountains Kuss is roughly equal to any combo of A Yates + Majka-Soler-Großschartner in terms of pacing. Aero is less of a concern at climbing speeds but psychologically you can't lose the wheel of the guy in front of you.

Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Why is UAE not chasing down these breakaways? I don't recall this ever happening before on a consistent basis. Especially on mountain stages.
Click to expand...

The daily narrative online is whoever is pacing the peloton is screwing up their tactics.

I think they did the right thing to let it go today bc you can't control a break that big. There's no sense fighting the formation too much bc unlike yesterday you need the energy for the final 50 minute climb. Where they screwed up is Lanengen and Trentin can't let the break go out that far before they get to the base of the climb.

Dinsy Ejotuz said:
If it comes down to the last time trial, who's the stronger rider in that discipline?
Click to expand...

Uphill climb - slight edge to Pogi IMO - Vingegaard is better at longer climbs at alititude - but at 22.4 km I don't expect the gap to be huge. Bonus seconds are the key to this Tour so far and I think that pattern continues.

But there will be massive gaps in GC on Stages 14, 15 and 17 - huge difficult climbs. Somebody will have a bad day.

Would not be surprised if GC Kuss moves up to 6th or 7th by the middle of next week.

I have no idea who wins between the two heavyweights. Love them both and really am enjoying this Tour, it's the best one of the decade IMO.

Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Last, is Roglic competitive with these two? If he were in the race could he win?
Click to expand...

I don't think so but opinions vary. Pogačar is the best cyclist in the world. Jonas is a fantastic GC rider. I feel like there's a good sized gap to the next tier of Remco and Primož.
 
LE FBG TDF STAGE WINS
  1. Da Raiders
  2. BassNBrew
  3. BobbyLayne
  4. BobbyLayne
  5. sammy3469
  6. BobbyLayne
  7. BobbyLayne
  8. sammy3469 (2)
  9. Jaysus
  10. BassNBrew (2)
  11. BobbyLayne
  12. cheeseypoof
  13. BobbyLayne (6)
 
BOERUM HILL BIG RINGING
ALT-TJV.png
Vingegaard
188 pts		UAD.png
Pogačar
216 pts		ALT-TJV.png
Kuss
61 pts
LTD.png
Van Gils
225 pts		ADC.png
Philipsen
12 pts		ALT-TFS.png
Kirsch
0 pts
UAD.png
Laengen
6 pts		ACT.png
Peters
0 pts		ADC.png
Van Der Poel
0 pts
 
RB BROWNWINGS WGUAFC
ALT-TJV.png
Vingegaard
188 pts		UAD.png
Pogačar
216 pts		LTD.png
Van Gils
225 pts
BOH.png
Buchmann
6 pts		ADC.png
Philipsen
12 pts		ALT-TBV.png
Mohorič
52 pts
ACT.png
Peters
0 pts		COF.png
Perez
0 pts		ADC.png
Van Der Poel
0 pts
 

Tour de France 2023 STAGE 14 PREVIEW › Downhill Finish in 1st ALPINE STAGE, Vingegaard to TAKE TIME?​


Weather

10 mph South West wind, 75-77° in the mountains, 85° at the start, possible rain with thunder

Stage Breakdown

INSANE opening 50 km with an uphill start into a Cat 3 mountain straight away, followed by two Cat 1 climbs back to back. 3rd hard stage in a row, and the first one fully in the Alps.

We start in Annemasse, the french suburb of Genève toward the ski station of Morzine, with an almost constant up and down we start almost directly uphill for a long drag till the first categorized climb at 18.5 km then it's a constant up and down until the foot of Col de la Ramaz, which is 13.9 km long at 6.9%. After the descent, the valley is mostly flat for 10 km, which could be the part that kills the stage and initiatives in the Ramaz. Then begins Col de Joux Plane, a climb (11.7 km at 8.5%) used often in the Tour de France. There is a flat section at the top of almost 3 km. with the very technical descent towards Morzine following. The finish line is at the bottom of the descent - this should be a cracker of a stage!

Predictions:

★★★ Breakaway

★★ Pogacar, Vingegaard

★

As usual in the mountains, the break should be strong, especially with that kind of start, so it could win depending on who is in it. Every climber outside of the top 10 should be looking to jump: Pinot, Bardet, Gall, Martin, Landa, Buchmann, Barguil, Woods, Van Gils. This stage could be the killer of the teammates of the two big leaders if it goes non stop (Tuesday and Thursday showed that it probably will go non stop) and while it may not matter tomorrow, it may on Sunday.

This is probably the best designed 4 GC stages in a row in a long time in the Tour!
 
Sammy3469 said:
So apparently Pogocar went up two minutes faster than in 2020…basically they played it right, but Kwiakowski just had superhuman legs today :shrug:
Click to expand...


@ammattipyoraily
⛰️⏱️ COL DU GRAND COLOMBIER | #TDF2023 (new record)

2012 | 49:27 | Pinot | TDF
2012 | 49:42 | PELOTON | TDF
2019 | 47:45 | Pinot | Ain
2020 | 48:25 | Roglic | Ain
2020 | 45:50 | Pogacar | TDF
2023 | 44:01 | Pogacar | TDF
 
vertical feet of climbing
  1. 17,713 - Stage 17
  2. 14,708 - Stage 15
  3. 14,025 - Stage 14
  4. 12,776 - Stage 6
  5. 11,982 - Stage 5
  6. 11,388 - Stage 20
  7. 11,289 - Stage 9
  8. 10,568 - Stage 1
  9. 10,338 - Stage 10
  10. 10,236 - Stage 12
  11. 9,675 - Stage 2
  12. 8,750 - Stage 3
  13. 7,917 - Stage 13
  14. 6,549 - Stage 8
  15. 6,345 - Stage 19
  16. 6,145 - Stage 11
  17. 4,682 - Stage 4
  18. 3,990 - Stage 18
  19. 2,651 - Stage 7
  20. 2,087 - Stage 16 (ITT)
  21. 1,893 - Stage 21
 
BobbyLayne said:
Click to expand...

A total of 173 points are to be divided in the best climbers classification today. The maximum number of points a rider can score is 52 points.

#CLIMBPOINTS
1KOM Sprint (3) Col de Saxel (18.7 km)2,1
2KOM Sprint (1) Col de Cou (35.3 km)10,8,6,4,2,1
3KOM Sprint (1) Col du Feu (52.7 km)10,8,6,4,2,1
4KOM Sprint (1) Col de la Ramaz (101.6 km)10,8,6,4,2,1
5KOM Sprint (HC) Col de Joux Plane (139.8 km)20,15,12,10,8,6,4,2
 
Col de Joux Plane - descent

very technical. there's about 3 km on the summit that is mostly flat and it seems pretty benign. starting around 5:00 it starts getting nerve wracking af. from the route map and this vid I'd say it doesn't exactly let up once you reach the village bc there are some wicked turns in the last couple kilometers.

as for the hors catégorie climb itself, this one seems kind of underrated IMO. it certainly seems less celebrated than some of the legendary mountain stages; yet every time it's used for TdF, the riders look back and say "that was the hardest stage." Lance lost almost 2 minutes to Jan Ulrich on this climb in 2000.
 
Last edited:
someone from Movistar (possibly Ruben Guerreiro) on stretcher going into ambulance

Adrien Petit had a bloodied leg

Wilco Kelderman went down but appears OK

no GC or any of our Velogames riders from what I saw

Thibaut Pinot was involved but he rode away

edit: Daniel Martínez looks dazed
 
Last edited:
overhead of the crash corner

almost every team was involved, race has been stopped

good decision - had barely dropped the flag and nothing was happening yet

CORRECTION

not Guerreiro but rather a teammate
  • PEDRERO Antonio (Movistar Team) abandoned the race.
  • MEINTJES Louis (Intermarché - Circus - Wanty) has abandoned

Crash by 30 riders in peloton
Click to expand...

EDIT 2: Jai stood there awhile but did ride off

Big issue - they need an ambulance following the Peloton; both just transported riders. They have additional medical cars the doctors ride in but apparently only have two ambulances, so might need to replace those before restarting.
 
Last edited:
BobbyLayne said:
Col de Joux Plane - descent

very technical. there's about 3 km on the summit that is mostly flat and it seems pretty benign. starting around 5:00 it starts getting nerve wracking af. from the route map and this vid I'd say it doesn't exactly let up once you reach the village bc there are some wicked turns in the last couple kilometers.

as for the hors catégorie climb itself, this one seems kind of underrated IMO. it certainly seems less celebrated than some of the legendary mountain stages; yet every time it's used for TdF, the riders look back and say "that was the hardest stage." Lance lost almost 2 minutes to Jan Ulrich on this climb in 2000.
Click to expand...

Someone is going to get hurt really bad today.
 
BassNBrew said:
BobbyLayne said:
Col de Joux Plane - descent

very technical. there's about 3 km on the summit that is mostly flat and it seems pretty benign. starting around 5:00 it starts getting nerve wracking af. from the route map and this vid I'd say it doesn't exactly let up once you reach the village bc there are some wicked turns in the last couple kilometers.

as for the hors catégorie climb itself, this one seems kind of underrated IMO. it certainly seems less celebrated than some of the legendary mountain stages; yet every time it's used for TdF, the riders look back and say "that was the hardest stage." Lance lost almost 2 minutes to Jan Ulrich on this climb in 2000.
Click to expand...

Someone is going to get hurt really bad today.
Click to expand...

I hope not.

that descent road is narrow with no shoulder. not too many ravines from the video I posted above but it is super technical and I'm just hoping everyone makes it down.

they say Pierre Latour (TotalEnergies) pretty much has PTSD from descending rn. he's a climbing specialist and can barely get down, goes slower than anyone. poor guy....gotta be like getting the yips. although missing 3 footers doesn't present a danger to yourself and others.
 
presumably the first KOM points are wiped out now

only 3 available....from the PCS route tracker it looks like they're coming up to it now (or maybe past it)

another 170 KOM points on the last 4 climbs so NBD

PCS feed was wrong, we're still 8-9 km from the 1st KOM banner
 
Caleb Ewan left the Tour this Friday, before the ascent of the Grand Colombier. Stéphane Heulot, manager of the Lotto Dsnty team, had bet everything on the Australian sprinter and finds his behavior disrespectful.

"I've never seen that": Stéphane Heulot angry after the abandonment of Caleb Ewan​

Click to expand...

Oh FFS

Stephane Heulot abandoned 6 of his 10 grand tours he entered when he was a rider 20-30 years ago.

I get it. First year as GM, they just got relegated this year, and that fat $2M contract through 2024 is not the thing a Pro team struggling for sponsors is keen to continue. But FRO with the drama, handle your business in house. What a ****ty leader.
 
BobbyLayne said:
Riders in common on the 11 teams:
  • Pogačar 11
  • Pidcock 5
  • Alaphilippe 4
  • Van Der Poel 4
  • Vingegaard 4
  • Kuss 3
  • Perez 3
  • Peters 3
  • Philipsen 3
  • Van Aert 2
  • Bilbao 2
  • Buchmann 2
  • Carapaz 2
  • Craddock 2
  • Girmay 2
  • Groenewegen 2
  • Hindley 2
  • Kirsch 2
  • Laengen 2
  • Naesen 2
  • O’Conner 2
  • Pedersen 2
  • Van Gils 2
  • Wright 2
  • A.Yates 2
  • S.Yates 2
  • Aranburu
    Barguil
    Berthet
    Calmejane
    Campenaerts
    Chaves
    Ciccone
    Costa
    Gallopin
    Gaudu
    Haig
    Jakobsen
    Konrad
    Landa
    LaPorte
    Mas
    Mohorič
    Mørkøv
    Pinot
    Sagan
    Schultz
    Træen
    Turner
    Urán
    Welsford
Click to expand...

placeholder - list of the Velogames riders

KOM on the Cat 3
marinez - 2
Alaphilippe - 1

170 more KOM Points up for grabs today, 10-10-10-20 for the first man over the Cat 1, Cat 1, Cat 1, & HC
 
first breakaway group as they begin the 2nd climb of the day

Situation​

 
BARDET Romain (Team dsm - firmenich) abandoned the race.

3rd DNF of the day and we're barely 30 km in.

EDIT: actually 5 now

DNF SHAW James EF Education-EasyPost (involved Bardet crash)
DNF CHAVES Esteban EF Education-EasyPost. (in the original 30 rider crash at start of the day)
 
Last edited:
20 off the front (18 seconds)

TJV has 7 guys pacing in the front of the Peloton

Pogi already down to only Majka, Soler and Yates
 
BobbyLayne said:
BassNBrew said:
BobbyLayne said:
Col de Joux Plane - descent

very technical. there's about 3 km on the summit that is mostly flat and it seems pretty benign. starting around 5:00 it starts getting nerve wracking af. from the route map and this vid I'd say it doesn't exactly let up once you reach the village bc there are some wicked turns in the last couple kilometers.

as for the hors catégorie climb itself, this one seems kind of underrated IMO. it certainly seems less celebrated than some of the legendary mountain stages; yet every time it's used for TdF, the riders look back and say "that was the hardest stage." Lance lost almost 2 minutes to Jan Ulrich on this climb in 2000.
Click to expand...

Someone is going to get hurt really bad today.
Click to expand...

I hope not.

that descent road is narrow with no shoulder. not too many ravines from the video I posted above but it is super technical and I'm just hoping everyone makes it down.

they say Pierre Latour (TotalEnergies) pretty much has PTSD from descending rn. he's a climbing specialist and can barely get down, goes slower than anyone. poor guy....gotta be like getting the yips. although missing 3 footers doesn't present a danger to yourself and others.
Click to expand...
Horner was saying he should retire, no point racing.

I've mentioned this before but I can understand his stress. Watched a rider die in front of me on a decent in a mountain race and we weren't riding for paychecks or prizes. A second of bad judgement, poor road, or a mechanical and 30-70 years of life just vanishes.
 
Well enjoy the race today guys. I have to work so I'll step away and watch later. Looking forward to your comments on today.
 
Ciccone and Woods have opened up a bit

Situation​

 
Barguil dropped, that's a surprise - Gaudau out the back with several others

LaPorte with a massive pull to bridge the peloton across to Group 1

Van Hooydonck takes over pacing for a short pull

Benoot pacing - they TJV have six riders at the head, in complete control

Ciccone accelerates away from Woods - he's cracked

Peloton only 0:10 back
 
Ciccone dropped, shares a laugh with Pogi as he gets passed

PIdcock, Jonas with 5 Jumbo riders, Pogi with 3 UAE



Bernal and Haig out the back
 
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