Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Official 2025 Professional Golf thread - Disappointing Ryder. Disappointing fans. Disappointing captains performance. (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Instinctive
- Start date
belljr
Footballguy
Envelope?
NutterButter
Footballguy
Helluva fight from the US today. Love me some Ryder cup Sunday.
NutterButter
Footballguy
He had 2 short putts to finish it but eight birdies is still impressive. And that approach at 18 was some shot.
TLEF316
Footballguy
The "envelope rule" was put into play when Hovland "couldn't" play
belljr
Footballguy
I'm sure no one was complaining when they were down 9
TLEF316
Footballguy
I'm sure no one was complaining when they were down 9
Of course not.
Doesn't mean it's not an abysmal rule
NutterButter
Footballguy
One loss in 11 matches is really impressive
belljr
Footballguy
Yeah if you WD should be an LI'm sure no one was complaining when they were down 9
Of course not.
Doesn't mean it's not an abysmal rule
Beef Ravioli Part 2
Footballguy
I only watched for about an hour this afternoon and although the crowd was loud it seemed it Ryder Cup appropriate and normal. Didn’t hear anything during swings and didn’t see any fan/player altercations during that hour. Was that true for the day?
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Man we dominate Singles and just suck in team play. Honestly I think we are a group of 12 individuals vs a team. Have to figure it out
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
this has to be a bot right?
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
truth
Chemical X
Footballguy
15-13 but this was over friday morning.
Also, crowd behavior at most, if not all, sporting events is going downhill fast. Microcosm of society as a whole. Your life is that miserable that you need to go to a great golf event, down 17 bud lights with your buddies and scream obscenities at pro golfers. Then pass out in a bunker? Awful shtick.
Also, crowd behavior at most, if not all, sporting events is going downhill fast. Microcosm of society as a whole. Your life is that miserable that you need to go to a great golf event, down 17 bud lights with your buddies and scream obscenities at pro golfers. Then pass out in a bunker? Awful shtick.
No. Not even close.
European fans are much more clever and wittier in their heckling. They get loud and boisterous in the RC, but rarely cross the line. Definitely no shouting in someone's backswing.
Pretty poor showing by the American public on world-wide TV. But sadly, the rest of the world is used to it and not suprised anymore.
Chemical X
Footballguy
they should have an alternate or the captain should be the alternate. if you can’t play how do you get 1/2 point? very weird.I'm sure no one was complaining when they were down 9
Of course not.
Doesn't mean it's not an abysmal rule
That would be flat out awesome.
TLEF316
Footballguy
It's a cool idea in theory but bad in practice. What if your best captain is a 60 year old man or injured?
They should settle ties with one more match. But with TV constraints it would probably have to be shortened (assuming they can't start it until the last Sunday single finishes).
In an ideal world, it's 18 holes on Monday morning, but that will never happen again
Chemical X
Footballguy
senior tour ryder cup!!!!
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
You're injured, you forfeit the point. Or, let the opposing team pick a player to go out and play 36. That player leads off, and then plays again in the 13-slot (if needed). Better than just halving the point, in my opinion (and it adds an extra small layer of strategy, while still allowing the team with the injured player a chance at salvaging something potentially).
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I had given up hope and was out hiking and then having lunch with my wife. Turned it on and man, if Henley could have drained that putt then it really would have made things interesting.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I think I jinxed by prematurely mentioning that match as a win with Henley being up 2 with only 4 to play but then Lowry turned it on with birdies on 15,16, and 18. Henley had a nice birdie putt himself on 16 to keep it 1 up and hit beautiful approaches on 17 and 18 but just couldn't sink those putts. The guy played really well. You can fault a guy that makes 8 biridies. The 1st 3 matches were just pure intensity. Rose, Thomas and DeChambeau are guys that are just fun to watch in that type of competition. Even though they came up short, they sure did make it fun. I love a good hike but its hard not to tune in on Ryder cup Sunday. Absolutely my favorite day of golf.
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
A few thoughts....
- I don't particularly like the "Hovland" rule where they halve the match when a player withdraws, but Donald is right. It's been in place for 50-ish years, and the US has used it before. It rarely comes into play (this is the 3rd or 4th time since 1990 I think?), and I think it's safe to say that all of these guys want more than anything to play their respective matches. Obviously, it wasn't a matter of the European team taking advantage of the rule for their benefit, etc. If anything, considering how Friday/Saturday had gone, the US probably should have been happy to get a half point without playing (I say that somewhat in jest, but on paper it's sort of true). All of that said, I think they could/should come up with a better rule. Have an alternate, play 10 matches instead of 12 with the last two being alternate options, or like I said earlier, let the team not withdrawing choose someone from the other team to play twice. It would add some intriguing strategy... Do you choose to nominate an exhausted stud (Rahm, Rory, Scheffler, Bryson, etc.) to play 36 on Sunday, or a lesser player (Hojgaard, Griffin) who has maybe only played one match through the first two days? Probably would never happen, but it's better than what they have now. Imagine being that guy and having it come down to 18 (or 36 for them) in a match/cup that could go either way. It would be drama like never before.
- Keegan's decision to roll with Morikawa/English two days in a row is still the most mind-boggling thing out of all of this. Worst pairing on paper/analytically, and he did it twice. It would be one thing if they played well Friday, and came close to winning or something along those lines. But, it was a failure on Friday, and just as bad on Saturday. In hindsight, essentially giving away that point (or two) may have been the difference, cumulatively.
- Speaking of hindsight, a lot of what people are going to be talking about will be exactly that. Hindsight is 20/20. Lots of "should have... " or "could have...." that are easy to say now. Scheffler and Henley switching who teed off on odd/even holes is a no-brainer, but that's just as much on them (or the vice captains) as it is Bradley. Unless they suggested it and he shot it down for some reason. They're all smart guys.... It shouldn't have taken Friday's results for them to figure that one out for Saturday.
- Should Keegan have set the course up differently? I don't know. I hear critics talking about how the US/he turned it into a putting contest, which was right up the Euro's alley. That the rough should have been longer, and the greens less sort/receptive. Really? I mean, that makes sense, I suppose, IF the US team is the better driving team of the two in terms of accuracy. But, I'm not sure that's the case. And, do we really want to make the greens fast and hard (like a typical Open Championship)? Talk about playing right into their hands. Let's just call it what it was. They played better, and putted WAY better for two of the three days. The US flipped the script so much on Sunday that they almost made up enough ground to cancel out two days worth of getting crushed. They win one more match (and halve another) between Friday or Saturday, and it's a different story. If the US plays even halfway decent on either of those first two days, with the same result on Sunday, they win the cup. Of course, there's no telling what would have happened on Sunday if things had been even slightly different on Friday or Saturday. Europe may not have come out as "flat" if it was closer going into Sunday.
- Donald treating this like a full-time job seemed to put them at an advantage over Bradley, who was playing to possibly make the team. That should be something to consider going forward. Find somebody who is willing to set other things aside and focus on winning this event. That's an obvious one, to me (again, in hindsight). I don't know who that might be. If Stricker would be down, he would be my #1 choice. But, it can't be someone who is still playing 20-25 events per year. That alone puts the US at a disadvantage.
Bottom line, top to bottom, I knew going into this that the Americans had their work cut out for them. The European team is the strongest I can ever remember seeing, top to bottom. The top half of both teams might be comparable, but I think their squad was significantly stronger 6-12. A lot of the experts were saying Scheffler needed to win 3.5 to 4 points if the US had any chance. Turns out that wasn't quite correct, but the sentiment was true. The only way they were winning was if he played well. Turns out he didn't need 4 points, but probably no less than 50/50 was needed.
The LIV topic is interesting. But, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure LIV hurt the US team any more than the Europeans. DJ is past his prime and probably wouldn't have made the team regardless. Koepka has made it clear that he doesn't really care about team events like some others do, or at least that's the impression he gives. If anything, the Euro's have lost more people to LIV than the US has, particularly in terms of potential captains. On the US side, Mickelson has burned that Bridge, but who else? Reed? Can't imagine him being captain, honestly. Meanwhile, on the other side, you have Westwood, Stenson, McDowell, Poulter, Casey, etc. That's like the who's who of past European Ryder Cup teams, right there. But, it might not matter if Donald steps up for another go at it.
Lastly, the fan thing is interesting. 20-30 years ago, there was a definite perception that the European fans were the more hostile/intense group of the two, to the point where a lot of people felt that was what the US needed to become more competitive in the Ryder Cup (a more "hostile" home field advantage). Has the pendulum swung the other way, or can this year be chalked up to it being New York fans? I think it's probably some of both. But, I agree (mainly) with Rory and the Europeans on this one. Cheer for your team. Chanting/cheering against the opposing players is fine UNTIL it becomes derogatory in nature or a personal attack. And, obviously, throwing things at players/caddies/family members is totally out of bounds, and should be met with immediate removal from the grounds. But, I also think we only see a small sample size of what is going on. The emphasis is put on the 2% who act like jackasses, when the majority of the fans out there are respectful (while still being intense).
- I don't particularly like the "Hovland" rule where they halve the match when a player withdraws, but Donald is right. It's been in place for 50-ish years, and the US has used it before. It rarely comes into play (this is the 3rd or 4th time since 1990 I think?), and I think it's safe to say that all of these guys want more than anything to play their respective matches. Obviously, it wasn't a matter of the European team taking advantage of the rule for their benefit, etc. If anything, considering how Friday/Saturday had gone, the US probably should have been happy to get a half point without playing (I say that somewhat in jest, but on paper it's sort of true). All of that said, I think they could/should come up with a better rule. Have an alternate, play 10 matches instead of 12 with the last two being alternate options, or like I said earlier, let the team not withdrawing choose someone from the other team to play twice. It would add some intriguing strategy... Do you choose to nominate an exhausted stud (Rahm, Rory, Scheffler, Bryson, etc.) to play 36 on Sunday, or a lesser player (Hojgaard, Griffin) who has maybe only played one match through the first two days? Probably would never happen, but it's better than what they have now. Imagine being that guy and having it come down to 18 (or 36 for them) in a match/cup that could go either way. It would be drama like never before.
- Keegan's decision to roll with Morikawa/English two days in a row is still the most mind-boggling thing out of all of this. Worst pairing on paper/analytically, and he did it twice. It would be one thing if they played well Friday, and came close to winning or something along those lines. But, it was a failure on Friday, and just as bad on Saturday. In hindsight, essentially giving away that point (or two) may have been the difference, cumulatively.
- Speaking of hindsight, a lot of what people are going to be talking about will be exactly that. Hindsight is 20/20. Lots of "should have... " or "could have...." that are easy to say now. Scheffler and Henley switching who teed off on odd/even holes is a no-brainer, but that's just as much on them (or the vice captains) as it is Bradley. Unless they suggested it and he shot it down for some reason. They're all smart guys.... It shouldn't have taken Friday's results for them to figure that one out for Saturday.
- Should Keegan have set the course up differently? I don't know. I hear critics talking about how the US/he turned it into a putting contest, which was right up the Euro's alley. That the rough should have been longer, and the greens less sort/receptive. Really? I mean, that makes sense, I suppose, IF the US team is the better driving team of the two in terms of accuracy. But, I'm not sure that's the case. And, do we really want to make the greens fast and hard (like a typical Open Championship)? Talk about playing right into their hands. Let's just call it what it was. They played better, and putted WAY better for two of the three days. The US flipped the script so much on Sunday that they almost made up enough ground to cancel out two days worth of getting crushed. They win one more match (and halve another) between Friday or Saturday, and it's a different story. If the US plays even halfway decent on either of those first two days, with the same result on Sunday, they win the cup. Of course, there's no telling what would have happened on Sunday if things had been even slightly different on Friday or Saturday. Europe may not have come out as "flat" if it was closer going into Sunday.
- Donald treating this like a full-time job seemed to put them at an advantage over Bradley, who was playing to possibly make the team. That should be something to consider going forward. Find somebody who is willing to set other things aside and focus on winning this event. That's an obvious one, to me (again, in hindsight). I don't know who that might be. If Stricker would be down, he would be my #1 choice. But, it can't be someone who is still playing 20-25 events per year. That alone puts the US at a disadvantage.
Bottom line, top to bottom, I knew going into this that the Americans had their work cut out for them. The European team is the strongest I can ever remember seeing, top to bottom. The top half of both teams might be comparable, but I think their squad was significantly stronger 6-12. A lot of the experts were saying Scheffler needed to win 3.5 to 4 points if the US had any chance. Turns out that wasn't quite correct, but the sentiment was true. The only way they were winning was if he played well. Turns out he didn't need 4 points, but probably no less than 50/50 was needed.
The LIV topic is interesting. But, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure LIV hurt the US team any more than the Europeans. DJ is past his prime and probably wouldn't have made the team regardless. Koepka has made it clear that he doesn't really care about team events like some others do, or at least that's the impression he gives. If anything, the Euro's have lost more people to LIV than the US has, particularly in terms of potential captains. On the US side, Mickelson has burned that Bridge, but who else? Reed? Can't imagine him being captain, honestly. Meanwhile, on the other side, you have Westwood, Stenson, McDowell, Poulter, Casey, etc. That's like the who's who of past European Ryder Cup teams, right there. But, it might not matter if Donald steps up for another go at it.
Lastly, the fan thing is interesting. 20-30 years ago, there was a definite perception that the European fans were the more hostile/intense group of the two, to the point where a lot of people felt that was what the US needed to become more competitive in the Ryder Cup (a more "hostile" home field advantage). Has the pendulum swung the other way, or can this year be chalked up to it being New York fans? I think it's probably some of both. But, I agree (mainly) with Rory and the Europeans on this one. Cheer for your team. Chanting/cheering against the opposing players is fine UNTIL it becomes derogatory in nature or a personal attack. And, obviously, throwing things at players/caddies/family members is totally out of bounds, and should be met with immediate removal from the grounds. But, I also think we only see a small sample size of what is going on. The emphasis is put on the 2% who act like jackasses, when the majority of the fans out there are respectful (while still being intense).
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
Interesting takes from Barstool Sports this morning on the fan piece.....
- We anticipated this Ryder Cup being in New York for months, in terms of the fans, etc. Then, when it's pretty much what we expected, there's an outcry of "that's not OK." I think it goes back to 98 (or maybe 95?) percent of the fans being in line, and just a small percentage possibly over the top.
- Dave Portnoy suggests "maybe you don't bring your wives to the Ryder Cup then." I don't necessarily disagree or agree. Maybe they don't need to be inside the ropes, so to speak. Although I'm not sure requiring them to be outside the ropes fixes the issue.
- The "thrown" beer at Rory's wife wasn't really thrown... It was tipped out of someone's hand in her direction. Doesn't make it better, necessarily. But it wasn't like somebody drilled her with a full can of beer. She got some beer spilled in her direction. That's it.
- The story of Shane Lowry being "held back" from going after a fan is laughable. For a variety of reasons. Mostly because he wasn't going after anyone, other than pointing who he wanted thrown out.
I think Rory is a little thin-skinned when it comes to things like this. Gets his feelings hurt easier than guys like Rose or Fleetwood. Guaranteed people were talking to those guys as well. Maybe not as much as Rory (because he's an easy target and will eventually react), but I'm sure they heard plenty as well. What makes it a story isn't what the fans said. It's the reaction. If Rory doesn't react with "Shut the f_ck up" we aren't even talking about this.
I have mixed feelings on this, and take back what I said about agreeing with Rory. I agree that some things are over the line and that, generally speaking, it's better to cheer for your team than against the other. But, the latter is sort of what has made the Ryder Cup the Ryder Cup. Certainly throwing things at players or their posse is not OK. As far as what can or can't be said, I think it's tough to make a clear black and white rule. Is swearing OK? Rory did it. Is teasing about something like Lowry's weight OK? He said he thrives off of things like that. What about people yelling things about Rory possibly having an affair (at him and his wife)? Not cool, for sure. But, it begs the question... Where is the line drawn if we're going to say some things are over the line. If the PGA or whatever draws a line too far in the other direction, in terms of what is allowed or not, what has made the Ryder Cup what it has been for decades will be gone.
- We anticipated this Ryder Cup being in New York for months, in terms of the fans, etc. Then, when it's pretty much what we expected, there's an outcry of "that's not OK." I think it goes back to 98 (or maybe 95?) percent of the fans being in line, and just a small percentage possibly over the top.
- Dave Portnoy suggests "maybe you don't bring your wives to the Ryder Cup then." I don't necessarily disagree or agree. Maybe they don't need to be inside the ropes, so to speak. Although I'm not sure requiring them to be outside the ropes fixes the issue.
- The "thrown" beer at Rory's wife wasn't really thrown... It was tipped out of someone's hand in her direction. Doesn't make it better, necessarily. But it wasn't like somebody drilled her with a full can of beer. She got some beer spilled in her direction. That's it.
- The story of Shane Lowry being "held back" from going after a fan is laughable. For a variety of reasons. Mostly because he wasn't going after anyone, other than pointing who he wanted thrown out.
I think Rory is a little thin-skinned when it comes to things like this. Gets his feelings hurt easier than guys like Rose or Fleetwood. Guaranteed people were talking to those guys as well. Maybe not as much as Rory (because he's an easy target and will eventually react), but I'm sure they heard plenty as well. What makes it a story isn't what the fans said. It's the reaction. If Rory doesn't react with "Shut the f_ck up" we aren't even talking about this.
I have mixed feelings on this, and take back what I said about agreeing with Rory. I agree that some things are over the line and that, generally speaking, it's better to cheer for your team than against the other. But, the latter is sort of what has made the Ryder Cup the Ryder Cup. Certainly throwing things at players or their posse is not OK. As far as what can or can't be said, I think it's tough to make a clear black and white rule. Is swearing OK? Rory did it. Is teasing about something like Lowry's weight OK? He said he thrives off of things like that. What about people yelling things about Rory possibly having an affair (at him and his wife)? Not cool, for sure. But, it begs the question... Where is the line drawn if we're going to say some things are over the line. If the PGA or whatever draws a line too far in the other direction, in terms of what is allowed or not, what has made the Ryder Cup what it has been for decades will be gone.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I think we can all agree that once the player lines up over the ball, stfu.
Last edited:
NutterButter
Footballguy
I saw that the US actually used that rule to retain the cup one year. If the europeans got the full point for the american withdrawal, they would've won it. I don't have a good answer other than its rarely comes into play and like a bad call in another sport, don't put yourself in that position in the 1st place where one rule or call makes the difference.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
If this was a women's event would it be OK? I just don't think it's OK to say things about personal appearance in today's society.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Obviously once a guy is over the ball....shut up. I get that non-golfers and fans of other sports probably consider that lame (given the noise and distraction that other athletes have to deal with) but that's the deal.
Cursing at the players.......nope. You can be clever and funny and needle the guys (personal attacks on someone's appearance.....if they're not vulgar and nasty are ok, IMO........but I think that's a very fine line and I get why someone would say that's not cool) without swearing.
Obviously anything about or directed towards their families is 100% uncalled for and disgusting. No place for that.
As for the Envelope rule(or the 14 points retains the cup stuff) .....its a tough spot. From a timing perspective, you obviously dont know whether there's going to be a tie until all 12 singles matches are finished. And if any match goes down to the wire, its not like you can then send the tie-breaker group out to play another 18 at that point. I dont remember exactly what time things wrapped last night, but there's simply no way to do it that night. You'd have to do it the next morning, and the logistics simply dont work (its why the US open stopped doing the 18 hole playoff....which was a shame because that was AWESOME)
I just dont see them giving up 100 years of tradition by deciding the Ryder cup on a 1 hole playoff at this point.
Cursing at the players.......nope. You can be clever and funny and needle the guys (personal attacks on someone's appearance.....if they're not vulgar and nasty are ok, IMO........but I think that's a very fine line and I get why someone would say that's not cool) without swearing.
Obviously anything about or directed towards their families is 100% uncalled for and disgusting. No place for that.
As for the Envelope rule(or the 14 points retains the cup stuff) .....its a tough spot. From a timing perspective, you obviously dont know whether there's going to be a tie until all 12 singles matches are finished. And if any match goes down to the wire, its not like you can then send the tie-breaker group out to play another 18 at that point. I dont remember exactly what time things wrapped last night, but there's simply no way to do it that night. You'd have to do it the next morning, and the logistics simply dont work (its why the US open stopped doing the 18 hole playoff....which was a shame because that was AWESOME)
I just dont see them giving up 100 years of tradition by deciding the Ryder cup on a 1 hole playoff at this point.
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
This is probably true. I just have a hard time not comparing it to European fans of past Ryder Cups. I can say with absolute certainty that it has happened with the roles being reversed. Boo Weekley comes to mind. And, Mickelson was an easy target in his younger years (when he carried a few more pounds than he does now). Of course, 20 years ago is a totally different story than today.
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
I don't necessarily disagree with any of the above. Dave Portnoy on Barstool seems to think swearing at players is standard procedure, but he's admittedly not much of a golf guy (and probably compares it to college football).
Just to be clear, the envelope rule (and the debate yesterday) wasn't about whether the 14 points should be enough to retain the cup, but rather the following....
"The Ryder Cup "envelope rule" is a controversial golf rule where each captain places one player's name in an envelope before a match; if a player is injured and cannot play, the opponent's captain is notified, and the player from that team in the envelope must also sit out the match, resulting in a tie. This rule, which forces the opposing team to sacrifice a player, aims to balance the playing field but has been criticized for potentially costing teams valuable points and for being an antiquated rule. "
Envelope Rule - Ryder Cup
TLEF316
Footballguy
Yup...understand both rules. IMO both are dumb but I don't see a great alternative that works for TV. "Winning" the cup via both rules in combination would have been brutal.
Yeah, Dave can't talk about golf. His entire empire is built on the kind of guys that act that way in public.
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
Good point.
WDIK2
Footballguy
We can only speculate, but if I had to guess I would say no. Half a point with your team down is also important. Apparently he has a bulging disc in his neck.
Beef Ravioli Part 2
Footballguy
I do not know much about the ins and the outs of the RC but I’m curious Donald being a full time coach and Keegan not being.
What is Donald doing as a full time coach that a part time guy could not do? They aren’t having regular practice times with the team are they? A part time coach should be able to strategize and prepare for the matches, I would think. Not arguing with your point, just seeking clarification.
Last edited:
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
At a macro/surface level, I would 100% agree with you. I mean, how much "work" really is there for these captains? The answer to that question is probably far more than most of us realize, when you put the list of responsibilities together. That said, they made a big deal out of Donald going to great detail to cover all bases when it came to making sure his team was 100% comfortable, rested, etc. going into these matches. He had the hotel change/upgrade the bedding for the players, stating that the existing bedding was not good enough. He had something put over the cracks under the hotel room doors to eliminate any light. Sounds silly, I know. Those are just two examples. Who knows if it made a difference. All I'm saying is that, while Keegan was playing tournaments to see if he could qualify as a player/coach, Donald was leaving no stone unturned in terms of his preparation. Who knows if those things made a difference. But, Donald is already being revered as possibly the greatest RC captain ever (I think it's a bit premature, but it's being said). His players love him, and several times his unmatched level of preparation was mentioned. Just something to think about.
I do think Keegan made some good changes. The US team took way too much time off pre-Ryder Cup two years ago. They were flat. This time around, he made a point to have them all playing two weeks prior (together), with the only exception being Schauffele (who was having a baby). There are other things he did that I thought were positive as well, and he's a high-energy guy (something that some past captains haven't been). But, when the Europeans come out so dominant compared to the US, and we're arguably relatively even (at least on paper) going into the event, a lot of people are asking the question "what's the difference?" Nobody knows, for sure. But, I think something to consider might be one captain throwing 110% of his time and energy into it while the other simply couldn't do that. Not saying Bradley didn't take it seriously or want to win, or anything of the sort. But, when you're playing in tournaments that suck up 5-6 days of your week some weeks, your time is limited.
Nigel
Footballguy
If down a couple of points giving up/gaining a half point is fairly inconsequential.
If down 7 points giving up a half is crushing. Full points or bust. I think if roles were reversed Hovland goes to greater lengths to play in hopes of it loosening up and gutting out a full point.
Beef Ravioli Part 2
Footballguy
Interesting stuff that Donald did!
Greatest RC Captain ever…..what would they have said if the U.S. completed the comeback? Is Keegan the greatest coach ever leading his team back from the largest margin ever?
I know we will never know because it did not happen.
I’m a big Luke Donald fan, have been for a long time. I just don’t know how much a coach can do to really help or hurt these guys that are really really good at hitting that little ball? Plus they are all motivated to play for their country/continent.
I like your takes @Golden Gopher! You watching the game this Saturday? I’m a Buckeye Homer that gets nervous against every opponent. Good luck!
Last edited:
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
It's an interesting question. There's no doubt in my mind that Hovland would have played on Sunday if he could have. This meant everything to those guys, and he was "gutted" to not be able to contribute. Lowry (who secured the win with his half point) said that this was the biggest moment of his life/career. Bigger than winning the Open Championship in his home country.
But, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been even harder for Hovland to not play if they were behind. The way it was on Sunday, you could make the argument that giving English and the US a half point was almost a gift. Of course, the US would argue that they want the chance to secure a full point, obviously. Would Hovland have tried to tough it out and play if trailing? I don't know. I think it's certainly possible, but I believe he would have done so in this scenario if he could have.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
1) keep the captain for at least 2 Ryder Cups, if not more. The best captains will learn from their mistakes.
2) the US needs to change the qualifying criteria. Not so much how many captains picks there are, but the points system. There are now so many signature events with points that it prevents someone from taking the spot of a veteran unless they roll off 2-3 wins in the year (like Griffin did). It's a self-fulfilling prophecy who is going to be at the top. And even when someone outplays their potential schedule (is McNealy, well, they get left off). Given the number of US losses (5 of last 7), why keep the vets. Their history is one of losing.
3) course setup is so important. the low rough was a benefit to the Euros IMO. It needs to be a US Open type setup for the US.
4) the captain on both sides need to be a bit smarter.
a) Keegan should have used DataGolf (or another stat database) and it it's recommended pairings. The first day Europe put out 7 of the 8 recommended pairings. The US put out 0. He also seems to focus on ball striking choices on a course with no rough. Griffin should have been out there way more. The US also seems to make pairings based on friendships. That's not the way to do it. Pair the right players together, they win, then they become friends.
b) Conversely Donald almost blew this by wearing out his stars. Rory, Rahm, and Fleetwood all lost singles matches and looked super tired. He won the cup, but I think 5 matches in 3 days is asking a lot of even the best. He's done this before. It's too much pressure, dealing with fans, media, etc to go 5 matches no matter how great of shape a guy is in.
5) the President Cup needs to go. It's meaningless. And doing this every year is too much. Let the International players do Asia vs the rest of the world or something like that. Maybe add Canada to the US in the Ryder Cup. So north america vs Europe. Corey Connors might have made the team, but it usually won't change the team much.
6) they need to get the fans under control. it's embareasing. At normal tourneys too. Bringing golf to the masses might backfire in the long run. In many ways
That's my two cents. Sunday was a fun watch
2) the US needs to change the qualifying criteria. Not so much how many captains picks there are, but the points system. There are now so many signature events with points that it prevents someone from taking the spot of a veteran unless they roll off 2-3 wins in the year (like Griffin did). It's a self-fulfilling prophecy who is going to be at the top. And even when someone outplays their potential schedule (is McNealy, well, they get left off). Given the number of US losses (5 of last 7), why keep the vets. Their history is one of losing.
3) course setup is so important. the low rough was a benefit to the Euros IMO. It needs to be a US Open type setup for the US.
4) the captain on both sides need to be a bit smarter.
a) Keegan should have used DataGolf (or another stat database) and it it's recommended pairings. The first day Europe put out 7 of the 8 recommended pairings. The US put out 0. He also seems to focus on ball striking choices on a course with no rough. Griffin should have been out there way more. The US also seems to make pairings based on friendships. That's not the way to do it. Pair the right players together, they win, then they become friends.
b) Conversely Donald almost blew this by wearing out his stars. Rory, Rahm, and Fleetwood all lost singles matches and looked super tired. He won the cup, but I think 5 matches in 3 days is asking a lot of even the best. He's done this before. It's too much pressure, dealing with fans, media, etc to go 5 matches no matter how great of shape a guy is in.
5) the President Cup needs to go. It's meaningless. And doing this every year is too much. Let the International players do Asia vs the rest of the world or something like that. Maybe add Canada to the US in the Ryder Cup. So north america vs Europe. Corey Connors might have made the team, but it usually won't change the team much.
6) they need to get the fans under control. it's embareasing. At normal tourneys too. Bringing golf to the masses might backfire in the long run. In many ways
That's my two cents. Sunday was a fun watch
Last edited:
Instinctive
Footballguy
Apparently everyone on team EU played the course a full 8 times leading up to cup and US played 9 holes twice each.
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
I've thought about this a lot over the years, having watched most of every Ryder Cup going back to the mid/late 80's. The Europeans tend to take their game to another level for the Ryder Cup. Conversely, the Americans sometimes do the opposite. There are certainly exceptions to both of those things, but that's been the case more often than not over the last 30-40 years. Look at some of the biggest American names over the course of the last 3-4 decades. Tiger. Phil. Now Scheffler. Did any of them play their best golf at the Ryder Cup? No, not even close. Not consistently, anyway. Meanwhile, look at the list of Europeans on just about any "best of Ryder Cup" list. Monty, Clarke, Seve, Faldo, Sergio, Poulter, Westwood, Rory, and now Rose, Lowry and Fleetwood. You could make an argument for several of those guys that their best golf has been played at the Ryder Cup. Not all of them, but several. And, for the ones who maybe that wasn't the case, the main reason that might not be true is because they were just as good elsewhere (but still stellar at the RC). Faldo, for example.
I don't know what the reason is behind it. There are a thousand theories. They "come together better as a team." The rest of the world wants nothing more than to beat the US. They play more match play growing up (which simply isn't true). While some of those things MAY be true, I don't think it comes down to simply "wanting" it more. At the highest level of any sport, wanting it more alone isn't going to get it done. That may be a small piece of it, but it's got to be more than that. So, then, naturally, you have to ask yourself "where else do the differences lie?" And, whether it mattered or not, there's no question that the two captains had very different styles (and levels) of preparation. Donald looked at every little thing, down to the thread count on the sheets at the hotel room. Meanwhile, Keegan missed some obvious things, like Scheffler teeing off first on Hole #1 and not Henley. So, I just think that might be something to consider.
Note: All three of the Americans I mentioned above had losing records in the Ryder Cup. Tiger and Scottie aren't even close to .500, actually. Phil (18-22-7) is the closest. Meanwhile, every European I listed above has a winning record, most of them convincingly above .500. The only one that's not is Lowry (3-3-3), but he's gotten progressively better with age over his 3 Ryder cup appearances (1-2 in 2021, 1-1-1 in 2023, and 1-0-2 this year.... 3-3-3 overall).
Golden Gopher
Footballguy
More interesting data....
US golfers with winning RC records who have played in at least one RC since 2000. There are 20. Eight of those 20 played in one Ryder Cup. Weekley, Dufner, Young (will likely play in more), Homa, Moore, Berger, Spaun, and Kim. Of the remaining 12 (who have played in multiple RC's and at least one since 2000), only three have a winning percentage of 60% or higher.
Verplank (4-1-0), Snedeker (4-2-0), and Reed (7-3-2).
Europe has five such players on this Ryder Cup team alone (plus captain Luke Donald). Winning percentage at 60+ percent, multiple Ryder Cups, including one this century.
So, maybe that's something to consider. Not sure how you "fix" that, but the experience of the European team is superior to that of the Americans, undoubtedly. Especially the experience of actually winning matches. Now, to be fair, there are three Americans with multiple RC's and winning records whose win percentages fall between 50-60%.... Thomas (9-6-2), Xander (7-5-0), and Cantlay (6-5-2). And, Keegan himself falls into that category at 4-3-0.
One more interesting stat.... Europe has 12 Ryder Cup participants with double-digit wins (not points, but actual match wins) who have played in a RC since 2000 AND have an overall winning record. Faldo and Woosnam (1997) barely missed the cut, and Seve last played in '95. Three of those twelve are on this year's team (Rory, Rose, Fleetwood), plus captin Donald. How many Americans have double-digit wins and a winning record who have played since 2000? ONE. Dustin Johnson (12-9-0) is the only one. Wadkins and Kite are the next closest in time (they last played in 1993).
So, again, a different level of experience on the European side, not just this time around, but throughout the last 25+ years. I'm not sure how you fix that. Maybe there is something to wanting it more. Not wanting the winning part, but just wanting to be on the team once they've tasted the experience once. Seems like more continuity for Europe. A lot of these guys have been on several teams. More turnover on the US side, at least among the guys who actually win more than they lose.
Interestingly enough, Rory and Faldo are not included in the above list in terms of 60% plus (both had winning percentages over 50 but below 60). That said, there's no doubt how much those guys meant/mean to the Europe side. It's a combination of winning and longevity/continuity, when it comes to measuring experience.
US golfers with winning RC records who have played in at least one RC since 2000. There are 20. Eight of those 20 played in one Ryder Cup. Weekley, Dufner, Young (will likely play in more), Homa, Moore, Berger, Spaun, and Kim. Of the remaining 12 (who have played in multiple RC's and at least one since 2000), only three have a winning percentage of 60% or higher.
Verplank (4-1-0), Snedeker (4-2-0), and Reed (7-3-2).
Europe has five such players on this Ryder Cup team alone (plus captain Luke Donald). Winning percentage at 60+ percent, multiple Ryder Cups, including one this century.
So, maybe that's something to consider. Not sure how you "fix" that, but the experience of the European team is superior to that of the Americans, undoubtedly. Especially the experience of actually winning matches. Now, to be fair, there are three Americans with multiple RC's and winning records whose win percentages fall between 50-60%.... Thomas (9-6-2), Xander (7-5-0), and Cantlay (6-5-2). And, Keegan himself falls into that category at 4-3-0.
One more interesting stat.... Europe has 12 Ryder Cup participants with double-digit wins (not points, but actual match wins) who have played in a RC since 2000 AND have an overall winning record. Faldo and Woosnam (1997) barely missed the cut, and Seve last played in '95. Three of those twelve are on this year's team (Rory, Rose, Fleetwood), plus captin Donald. How many Americans have double-digit wins and a winning record who have played since 2000? ONE. Dustin Johnson (12-9-0) is the only one. Wadkins and Kite are the next closest in time (they last played in 1993).
So, again, a different level of experience on the European side, not just this time around, but throughout the last 25+ years. I'm not sure how you fix that. Maybe there is something to wanting it more. Not wanting the winning part, but just wanting to be on the team once they've tasted the experience once. Seems like more continuity for Europe. A lot of these guys have been on several teams. More turnover on the US side, at least among the guys who actually win more than they lose.
Interestingly enough, Rory and Faldo are not included in the above list in terms of 60% plus (both had winning percentages over 50 but below 60). That said, there's no doubt how much those guys meant/mean to the Europe side. It's a combination of winning and longevity/continuity, when it comes to measuring experience.
Deepster
Footballguy
I was there Friday and here are some of my thoughts:
1) There were approximately 175,000-200,000 fans in attendance over the 3 days. The media you're hearing about the "US fans" is a few bad apples poisoning the bushel. I followed Rory's group most of the day and 99.9% of it was stuff that was toeing the line and that you'd definitely hear from the handful of a hole Euros on a European course Ryder Cup.
2) For Rory to then say there's a certain "decorum" to golf....then stomp across the green screaming F YOU! F YOU! F YOU! is a little hypocritical.
3) I did experience 3-4 times where someone yelled in a backswing or right before a putt (1000% unacceptable). Every time that happened, US fans yelled at the culprit to let them hit their shots. Again, very isolated instances among a sea of hyped up fans.
Lastly? I'll say this. Simply put, this tourney means more to the Euros and their fans. I hate saying that but it's true. Maybe that goes back to the days of Seve and Sergio as roots, but they're a much closer knit team and that's obvious. To me, more than the course layout/prep, we need to figure out how to care more and be closer as a team if we're going to ever be on even footing.
1) There were approximately 175,000-200,000 fans in attendance over the 3 days. The media you're hearing about the "US fans" is a few bad apples poisoning the bushel. I followed Rory's group most of the day and 99.9% of it was stuff that was toeing the line and that you'd definitely hear from the handful of a hole Euros on a European course Ryder Cup.
2) For Rory to then say there's a certain "decorum" to golf....then stomp across the green screaming F YOU! F YOU! F YOU! is a little hypocritical.
3) I did experience 3-4 times where someone yelled in a backswing or right before a putt (1000% unacceptable). Every time that happened, US fans yelled at the culprit to let them hit their shots. Again, very isolated instances among a sea of hyped up fans.
Lastly? I'll say this. Simply put, this tourney means more to the Euros and their fans. I hate saying that but it's true. Maybe that goes back to the days of Seve and Sergio as roots, but they're a much closer knit team and that's obvious. To me, more than the course layout/prep, we need to figure out how to care more and be closer as a team if we're going to ever be on even footing.
Similar threads
