Official Corey Coleman - WR - Patriots (1 Viewer)

[FreeBaGeL]

A sizable chunk of Coleman's value came from the supposed volume he'd be the recipient of.

Two years from now, Gordon helps or hurts Coleman's value?

Two years from now what are the chances that Gordon is still with Cleveland?  Even if he comes back and picks things up right where he left off (unlikely), he seems to have burned his bridges in Cleveland.  He's on the last year of his contract in 2016.  Is Cleveland going to give him any reasonable amount of money?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

do we really think RGIII is the QB answer in CLE though ?

When Josh Gordon was setting NFL records in 2013 the Browns QBs were:

1. Brian Hoyer
   
2. Jason Cambell
   
3. Brandon Weeden
   

I think RG III will be the starter and that he is definitely better than Cambell and Weeden and better than Hoyer was his last year in Cleveland.

The long-term answer isn't on the Browns roster this year IMHO but RG III is better than recent Cleveland starting QBs.

 

[Hankmoody]

Two years from now what are the chances that Gordon is still with Cleveland?  Even if he comes back and picks things up right where he left off (unlikely), he seems to have burned his bridges in Cleveland.  He's on the last year of his contract in 2016.  Is Cleveland going to give him any reasonable amount of money?

Not entirely.  He's a RFA at the end of this year.  CLE can give him about a $3M qualifying offer that would return a 1st round pick as compensation should someone else sign him. 

 

[Run It Up]

Yeah, supposing he doesn't get in trouble, the Browns will probably retain for another year. Don't see anyone paying that price to steal him.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Yeah, supposing he doesn't get in trouble, the Browns will probably retain for another year. Don't see anyone paying that price to steal him.

Yeah but if we're talking about 2 years from now we're talking about the year after that.  At that point I believe he's a UFA, right?

 

[Hankmoody]

Yeah but if we're talking about 2 years from now we're talking about the year after that.  At that point I believe he's a UFA, right?

He's a Restricted Free agent in 2017.  Browns (or new team, if he's traded) can offer him a 1 year RFA tender for 2017 or sign to a long-term deal.  If they make him an RFA tender other teams have a chance to sign him to a long term deal.  Assuming no one does, and Gordon plays on the RFA tender, he would be an Unrestricted Free Agent for the 2018 season.  If the Browns don't make him any RFA tender at all he immediately becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I find it hard to say that Gordon wouldn't impact Coleman, or that Coleman wouldn't still shine through that. Which is why I phrased the question the way I did.

As a rookie, Coleman would definitely benefit if Josh Gordon comes back and takes over as the #1 WR.  The reason is Corey won't have to face #1 DBs.  Defensive coordinators will be focusing on stopping Josh Gordon once he comes back.  

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Ari‏@FFesq


#JoshGordon reinstatement will HELP Corey Coleman. Not easy being a rookie facing #1 CBs. He gets a boost with this not a downgrade

 

[Biabreakable]

If Gordon does command more defensive attention that certainly could help Colemans efficiency.

It does not help his targets though. Part of why I like(d) Coleman ahead of Doctson or Treadwell was because of a better chance to make an instant impact due to the lack of other viable targets to go to. That may not be the case now.

To quantify that I have Colemans median range targets being the same 100.

Previously I had the upside targets for Coleman being 150.

If I assume Gordon gets 8 targets/game in the last 12 games that means Colemans upside gets capped at 120 not 150.

This makes is less likely I will draft him in redraft formats and makes Coleman less of a preference over Doctson or Treadwell in dyansty although still all the same tier.

 

[LBH]

I expect Gordon to screw up again before the season is over. If not then certainly during his down time in the offseason. I think he has minimal impact on Colemans dynasty outlook

 

[FreeBaGeL]

As a rookie, Coleman would definitely benefit if Josh Gordon comes back and takes over as the #1 WR.  The reason is Corey won't have to face #1 DBs.  Defensive coordinators will be focusing on stopping Josh Gordon once he comes back.  

----------------------


Ari‏@FFesq


#JoshGordon reinstatement will HELP Corey Coleman. Not easy being a rookie facing #1 CBs. He gets a boost with this not a downgrade

Honestly, it boggles my mind that people still even make this point.

Does another good WR hurt the other WR by limiting his targets or or help him by taking away defensive attention?  A question that goes back to the days of Peerless Price among FFers.  The answer?  It seems to be about 50/50, there's really no way to predict one way or the other.

It's just a waste of time for people to make that comment any more.  Just a useless logical fallacy.  It's not a new thought, and there's nothing substantive behind it statistically.  It's a total toss-up as to whether it's going to work out that way or the complete opposite.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Honestly, it boggles my mind that people still even make this point.

Does another good WR hurt the other WR by limiting his targets or or help him by taking away defensive attention?  A question that goes back to the days of Peerless Price among FFers.  The answer?  It seems to be about 50/50, there's really no way to predict one way or the other.

It's just a waste of time for people to make that comment any more.  Just a useless logical fallacy.  It's not a new thought, and there's nothing substantive behind it statistically.  It's a total toss-up as to whether it's going to work out that way or the complete opposite.




 

You seem really overly upset about my post so I'll clarify for you.

Core Coleman is a rookie.

His skill set is more suited for the Z-WR role.

Why?

Because the X-WR role, the one he was being groomed for has to line up directly on the LOS and typically faces the #1 DB from the opposition on a weekly basis. Coleman hails from Baylor where he didn't have a playbook and didn't run all of the route tree, something he would have to do as the #1 WR (X-WR) and we don't know if he could beat press-man coverage and get a clean release off of the line of scrimmage.

Now, with Josh Gordon back.  He won't have to assume the X-WR role and he won't have to line up on the line of scrimmage because he would take over as the Z-WR.

The Z-WR lines up two yards behind the LOS so they get a cleaner release off of the LOS since the DB isn't up on them and can't get a clear jam.  Also, the Z-WR requires someone with a skill set that is explosive and has good change of direction so they can go in motion and reverse to get even further advantage getting off of the LOS.  A good Z-WR opens up lots of offensive options for the OC but it is dependent on having a solid X-WR to force the safety deep and take away the top DB.

FOR A ROOKIE (get the point a ROOKIE WR) not having to begin assuming the X-WR role but being put in the Z-WR role is a good thing.  Especially for a kid from Baylor who has to learn technique plus the rest of the route tree even before mentioning the fact he would have to face the top DB from every team if he were the X.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

FOR A ROOKIE (get the point a ROOKIE WR) not having to begin assuming the X-WR role but being put in the Z-WR role is a good thing.  

Apologies if my post came across harshly.  I was under the impression the tweet being discussed was from a random blogger and not a FBG.  There was also a bit of logical fallacy frustration carried over from the Zeke thread where people were completely disregarding overwhelming statistics against a logical fallacy because the prose of it sounded pretty.  I did not intend to project that out towards you.

Regardless, I would love to see some data on the quoted.  From my quick anecdotal search it looks to me like the top 3 rookie WR seasons (Moss, ODB, Boldin) all came from WRs playing the X, though I haven't been able to find very reliable data on where players were lined up historically.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Apologies if my post came across harshly.  I was under the impression the tweet being discussed was from a random blogger and not a FBG.  There was also a bit of logical fallacy frustration carried over from the Zeke thread where people were completely disregarding overwhelming statistics against a logical fallacy because the prose of it sounded pretty.  I did not intend to project that out towards you.

Regardless, I would love to see some data on the quoted.  From my quick anecdotal search it looks to me like the top 3 rookie WR seasons (Moss, ODB, Boldin) all came from WRs playing the X, though I haven't been able to find very reliable data on where players were lined up historically.




 

I don't consider Coleman in the X-WR class that you refer.  I would never put him in the same breath as ODB or Moss or Anquan Boldin as a rookie.  

I felt from the start he was a natural fit as a Z-WR.  His SPARQ score was off the charts.  He has mad COD and explosion and speed, those skills is a hand/glove fit for the Z-WR role.  

If you saw him in Baylor's offense he was used effectively in space where he'd catch a short pass and then do damage.

Take a look at the bottom schematic rendering of the Baylor offense use of 'twins'.  

That formation allows the trailing WR to get a clean release off the LOS and operate in space, sort of like a bubble screen.

Rookie WRs typically don't have breakout seasons like, Moss, Bodlin, OBD, because they aren't ready to take over as the #1 WR as rookies.  Those were outliners.  If Corey Coleman has to start his career as the X-WR he would struggle for a number of reasons IMHO but now, with JG back.  He can operate from the Z and not face the top CB and/or double teams as he learns.  

Maybe in time, after his rookie season.  Once he learns the basic route tree and hones technique and learns the offense, etc.  He can progress to the point that he could assume the #1 WR role but I see him as a natural Z-WR, especially his rookie season.  

I stumbled upon this guy named Pete Smith when I was seeking out draft information.  He knows his sh!t and he's been pimping that we will see some Baylor-type spread formations this season.  

http://nflspinzone.com/2016/05/04/cleveland-browns-may-like-just-baylors-players/


After signing Robert Griffin III in free agency and then adding both Corey Coleman and Spencer Drango in the NFL Draft, the Browns may have eyes on Baylor’s offense too.


With the 2016 NFL Draft only a few days old, it seem as though many look at how the Cleveland Browns drafted and are confused on how to evaluate it. This seems to be due to the fact that teams aren’t sure what this team is doing on offense or assume they are going to be running the same offense Hue Jackson did in Cincinnati. Going into the draft, I was working under the same assumption and I was wrong. Jackson and the Browns are going in a completely different direction.

Based on the draft results, how the roster is currently constructed and what Jackson has said, the Browns are going to run a spread offense taking inspiration from Baylor’s offense under Art Briles. Spreading teams out with wide receivers to create space and having a big, powerful offensive line mow down the opponent with the running game.

Baylor’s offense is built on the running game first, then takes full advantage of speed and athletes on the outside and uses tempo to make it that much more difficult to defend. The athletes Baylor has been able to recruit have made the offense that much more challenging to defend, but it provides substantial schematic advantages as well.

First, some people want to understand what the Baylor offense is and does. When most people say spread, this is usually what they think of:

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/136/files/2016/05/Spread.jpg

A simple twins formation with weapons lined up outside with a quarterback in shotgun and a tailback. Certainly, there are any number of ways to vary on this concept, but this is the basic idea. It allows offenses to play smaller and use more athletes since talented 300lb football players aren’t common, especially in high school and college. Wide receivers are easier to find.

This also forces the defense to play smaller, using more nickel and dime packages to compensate. Most teams feel they have a much better chance of beating a team when they are making them use their third and fourth corners as opposed to having their starting SAM and WILL linebackers. So, that’s the basic spread.

When I think of Baylor’s Spread under Art Briles, this is what comes to mind:

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/136/files/2016/05/BaylorSpread.jpg

They still have the same twins look with receivers, but they push them further out and force defenses to really decide where they want to put their numbers. In particular, it forces the linebackers and safeties to cover way more ground.

Baylor forces teams to cover the outside more and then uses a power running game inside to punish them for it, taking advantage of their numbers. Chip Kelly’s offense is focused on creating numbers advantages. Briles’ offense works on the same 

If the defensive backs slide out wide, the offensive line potentially finds themselves in a five on five situation where if they simple get bodies on blocks, their running back gets a lot of free yardage before running into contact. Play too tight and the quarterback can throw a screen pass, quick hitch or go route to punish the opponent.

In order to really stop this offense, the defense needs athletes with range that are very smart and be able to hold up when Baylor ramps up the tempo. If a defense can cover the outside receivers and control the running game, putting them in predictable situations, it really short circuits what Baylor wants to do.




6

 

[Biabreakable]

I am pretty sure Beckham plays Flanker (Z) although I am not entirely clear about that, because he plays Split End (X) as well. 

In the west coast offense the flanker is usually the primary WR over the X but AJ Green plays the X and he has been featured more in Hue Jackson's offense recently, this may just be due to Green being their best player however, more so than the scheme.

Here is a list of rookie WR seasons over 40 receptions.

Eddie Royal played Flanker and had 91 receptions in his rookie season. You see players from the slot, flanker and side end all pretty equally represented in this list.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I don't consider Coleman in the X-WR class that you refer.  I would never put him in the same breath as ODB or Moss or Anquan Boldin as a rookie.  

I felt from the start he was a natural fit as a Z-WR.  His SPARQ score was off the charts.  He has mad COD and explosion and speed, those skills is a hand/glove fit for the Z-WR role.  

If you saw him in Baylor's offense he was used effectively in space where he'd catch a short pass and then do damage.

Take a look at the bottom schematic rendering of the Baylor offense use of 'twins'.  

That formation allows the trailing WR to get a clean release off the LOS and operate in space, sort of like a bubble screen.

Rookie WRs typically don't have breakout seasons like, Moss, Bodlin, OBD, because they aren't ready to take over as the #1 WR as rookies.  Those were outliners.  If Corey Coleman has to start his career as the X-WR he would struggle for a number of reasons IMHO but now, with JG back.  He can operate from the Z and not face the top CB and/or double teams as he learns.  

Maybe in time, after his rookie season.  Once he learns the basic route tree and hones technique and learns the offense, etc.  He can progress to the point that he could assume the #1 WR role but I see him as a natural Z-WR, especially his rookie season.  

This is all fair.  The key word in all of it is "may", of course, as he equally may have excelled as a primary target right out of the gates as is becoming more common in the modern NFL.

If he is so much better suited for the Z-WR role, do we even know that Cleveland didn't intend to play him there already?  I assumed he would be stepping into the role that Travis Benjamin vacated and my hope was that Cory Coleman as a rookie was already better than Travis Benjamin (who put up 68-995-5  in that role last year).  I'm not sure what role Benjamin played last year but by your definitions I'm guessing Hartline probably played the X.

Does JG coming back mean that Coleman is going from an X to a Z, or does it mean that he's going from a Z with a lot of targets to a Z with a moderate amount of targets?  

Travis Benjamin had 133 targets last year.  The next closest WR for the Browns had 76.  I think Coleman could do better than Benjamin's 68-995-5 with those targets which would be a very good rookie season.  I think he's unlikely to get anywhere near that target count with JG out there.  Whether or not any increase in efficiency would make up for the target difference is a complete toss-up, which kind of gets back to my original point.  

If I were forced to pick whether I think it will end up good or bad for him this year, Cory Coleman with 90 targets does not sound very appealing to me from a fantasy perspective.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

This is all fair.  The key word in all of it is "may", of course, as he equally may have excelled as a primary target right out of the gates as is becoming more common in the modern NFL.

If he is so much better suited for the Z-WR role, do we even know that Cleveland didn't intend to play him there already?  I assumed he would be stepping into the role that Travis Benjamin vacated and my hope was that Cory Coleman as a rookie was already better than Travis Benjamin (who put up 68-995-5  in that role last year).  I'm not sure what role Benjamin played last year but by your definitions I'm guessing Hartline probably played the X.

Does JG coming back mean that Coleman is going from an X to a Z, or does it mean that he's going from a Z with a lot of targets to a Z with a moderate amount of targets?  

Travis Benjamin had 133 targets last year.  The next closest WR for the Browns had 76.  I think Coleman could do better than Benjamin's 68-995-5 with those targets which would be a very good rookie season.  I think he's unlikely to get anywhere near that target count with JG out there.  Whether or not any increase in efficiency would make up for the target difference is a complete toss-up, which kind of gets back to my original point.  

If I were forced to pick whether I think it will end up good or bad for him this year, Cory Coleman with 90 targets does not sound very appealing to me from a fantasy perspective.




 

You 'can' run a passing offense through the X, Z, or Y, receivers.  It is much more difficult to run an effective offense from the slot but it has been done.

Optimally, you want a, big, tall, strong, WR lining up in the X.  An explosive, quick, speedy, guy at Z.  And at the Y you would 'optimally' want an all around TE who can move and take control of the middle of the field and have a couple of slot WR's to run empty sets but I don't want to get off track. 

As noted above by BiaBreakable, the G-Men started out ODB as a flanker/Z-WR where he lined up behind the LOS on over 60% of his rookie snaps.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=harmon_receptionperception_odellbeckhamjr14

In the current iteration of the Giants’ offense, Odell Beckham is most often playing the flanker position. He lines up on the right side of the field, and behind the line of scrimmage on most of his snaps.




 

Moss was/is 6'4 and Boldin is big and powerful.  Both of those guys could beat press-man coverage and get a clean release off the LOS.

ODB still ran over 30% of his snaps directly off the LOS lined up as the X but it wasn't his primary duty.

The problem the Browns faced when Josh Gordon wasn't in the picture was that outside of JG they don't have a true X-WR.  Terrell Pryor and maybe one of the rookies, (Payton?) would be better fits but Coleman was getting the reps in practice so it 'appeared' he would have to assume that role even though he really is a better fit for the Z-WR role.

Very few teams have an X-WR like Josh Gordon so they are forced to adjust their schemes.  The Browns 'appeared' to be adjusting to life without JG but now it could work if things fall the right way. 

The reason why those rookies had outliner breakout seasons as rookies is because a team would prefer to not want to use a rookie lined up as a #1 WR the majority of his snaps in his rookie season.  Rookie WRs typically take a year or two before they break out because they have a lot on their plates without having to face the top DB from every opponent on a weekly basis.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

You 'can' run a passing offense through the X, Z, or Y, receivers.  It is much more difficult to run an effective offense from the slot but it has been done.

Optimally, you want a, big, tall, strong, WR lining up in the X.  An explosive, quick, speedy, guy at Z.  And at the Y you would 'optimally' want an all around TE who can move and take control of the middle of the field and have a couple of slot WR's to run empty sets but I don't want to get off track. 

As noted above by BiaBreakable, the G-Men started out ODB as a flanker/Z-WR where he lined up behind the LOS on over 60% of his rookie snaps.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=harmon_receptionperception_odellbeckhamjr14

Moss was/is 6'4 and Boldin is big and powerful.  Both of those guys could beat press-man coverage and get a clean release off the LOS.

ODB still ran over 30% of his snaps directly off the LOS lined up as the X but it wasn't his primary duty.

Like I said, I don't really have a good source for X/Z data.  Articles leading up to his rookie year alluded to ODB gearing up to play the X, and Harmon's data cuts off after week 7 before ODB's breakout.

The problem the Browns faced when Josh Gordon wasn't in the picture was that outside of JG they don't have a true X-WR.  Terrell Pryor and maybe one of the rookies, (Payton?) would be better fits but Coleman was getting the reps in practice so it 'appeared' he would have to assume that role even though he really is a better fit for the Z-WR role.

Very few teams have an X-WR like Josh Gordon so they are forced to adjust their schemes.  The Browns 'appeared' to be adjusting to life without JG but now it could work if things fall the right way.

Again I'm on the short end of the stick on data sources here, as I hadn't seen any reports about where it appeared he was going to play this year based on practice.  I'm sure you have your sources, though ODB was getting lots of reps as the X before his rookie year as well and the jury is still out as to whether or not he actually played there.

My assumption/projection was that Coleman would step into Travis Benjamin's spot given that they are similarly sized players.  He certainly has more in common with Benjamin than with Hartline.  Travis Benjamin's role with 130+ targets is much more appealing from a fantasy sense than Travis Benjamin's role with 90 targets.

The reason why those rookies had outliner breakout seasons as rookies is because a team would prefer to not want to use a rookie lined up as a #1 WR the majority of his snaps in his rookie season.  Rookie WRs typically take a year or two before they break out because they have a lot on their plates without having to face the top DB from every opponent on a weekly basis.

At one point in time, sure.  Boldin's "outlier" rookie year isn't really an outlier any more though.  In the last two years alone, 5 rookie WRs have finished within 80% of the fantasy points that Boldin did as a rookie, with two rookie WRs matching or exceeding those numbers.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

My assumption/projection was that Coleman would step into Travis Benjamin's spot given that they are similarly sized players.  He certainly has more in common with Benjamin than with Hartline.  Travis Benjamin's role with 130+ targets is much more appealing from a fantasy sense than Travis Benjamin's role with 90 targets.




 

Travis Benjamin is 5'10 and is (generously) listed at only 175 lbs.  Corey Coleman is 5'11 and at a solid 191.  They really are not the same guy.  Travis is light and struggled beating man-press coverage.

I wasn't sure about Corey Coleman's ability to beat press-man or get a clean release off of the LOS but know that Travis Benjamin struggled with that aspect of his game.

http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2016/5/26/11781804/roster-review-what-travis-benjamin-will-bring-to-the-chargers-offense

Roster Review: What Travis Benjamin will bring to the Chargers offense



Dealing with physicality


An area where Benjamin did struggle was when DBs were able to get their hands on him and reroute him. Whether it was press coverage or at the top of his route and he was going to make his break. Putting him in motion or lining Benjamin up as a Flanker will eliminate the majority of press coverage issues. As for struggling at the top of his route he'll have to do a better job of using his hands and feet to keep himself free. His slight frame doesn't help him here because once there is contact he rarely, if ever, won the battle. He's going to have to improve at contested catch situations. This would be the 1 concern I have with Benjamin. It's likely why pundits peg him as a slot receiver.




 

My point has been that I felt that Corey Coleman was a natural Z-flanker-WR rather than a good fit as an X- #1 WR.  

His skill set screams that IMHO so I think he will perform 'better' as a flanker than he would as the #1 WR but he will be moved around and he will get some snaps in every position, even the slot but I think he 'should' line up the majority of the time as a Z.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

First look at Coleman in action.

So far, so good.

Go to the links to see a couple of quick videos.

----------------------------------------------

https://twitter.com/ScottPatsko/status/759502832974327810

Scott Patsko ‏@ScottPatsko  22h22 hours ago
#Browns Corey Coleman vs Justin Gilbert along the sideline. Was he in?

https://twitter.com/ScottPatsko/status/759510813648576513
Scott Patsko ‏@ScottPatsko  21h21 hours ago
Here’s another catch from Corey Coleman, this one on a pass from RG3.
Hue Jackson likes what he's seeing from his rookie WR.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/07/see_why_corey_coleman_is_makin.html

BEREA, Ohio – Corey Coleman's first training camp is only two days old, but Hue Jackson thinks the Browns' first-round draft pick is already stacking good days together.

On Saturday, on one-on-one receiving drills, he had a couple shining moments...

 

[Ilov80s]

I am so excited to see what Coleman can do. He has everything you want in this new NFL where guys smaller quick WRs like Brown, Beckham and Cooks can dominate from the outside. 

 

[Rodeojones]

Here's another pretty nice clip on a deep route.

Video

 

[georg013]

Me likey

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I wanted to see where Corey Coleman is lined up and so-far in the first couple of days of training camp he is still being lined up at the X-WR position.

Mary Kay Cabot ‏@MaryKayCabot  1h1 hour ago
#Browns WR Pryor moved to "Z" in part b/c Corey Coleman and now Josh Gordon are at "X.'' Good sign for Pryor, who caught 50-yarder Sunday
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Considering that Josh Gordon has a quad injury and isn't playing right now and that JG will be suspended the first four games and the team will need an X-WR this isn't too surprising.  

I'd like to see how much time, if any, Coleman gets at Z once JG is back participating in camp and once Gordon is back on the active roster after he serves his suspension because I still think he would take over as the starting X and that Coleman is a natural fit at Z.

 

[Biabreakable]

Thanks Bracie.

Where are Higgins and Payton playing?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Thanks Bracie.

Where are Higgins and Payton playing?




 

No definite word from beat writers on the later drafted WRs.

Here is what I've pieced together on those two.

-------------------------------

• Rashard Higgins
  

He had an unusually high percentage of screens for his pass receptions as CSU, 26 and 23%.  

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-debate-is-rashard-higgins-a-better-wr-prospect-than-will-fuller/

I’m glad you brought up bubble screens! Because while they are a nice skill to have, they are far less prevalent in the NFL, with some teams not using them at all. In Higgins’ vaunted 2014 season, 26.6 percent of his yards and 23.9 percent of his receiving grade came on screens. That’s a quarter of his production that will almost completely vanish in the NFL




 

That is a ridiculously high percentage of receptions where the point would be to get the ball into his hands in space with blockers out in front.  That skill set fits best for a slot WR not someone who is lined up on the line of scrimmage like the X.  Think the Patriots infamous 'bubble screen'.

The skill set he showed in college would be a nice fit for a slot WR IMHO but I haven't heard where he is lining up.

-----------------------------

• Jordan Payton
  

He got a very late start since classes at UCLA only got out about a week ago and Hue Jackson says that he has a lot of catching up to do.  

http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/browns-notes/2016/08/01/Browns-Notes.html

Rookie receiver Jordan Payton, a fifth-round pick, is trying to make up for lost time. He missed the offseason program because school was still in session at UCLA and NFL rules forbid a player from leaving school to join his team.




 

RotoWorld speculates that Jordan Payton is a slot WR.  

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/11403/jordan-payton

... He's expected to struggle with NFL man coverage, though he did show well at the Combine. Payton could get some rookie opportunities in the slot for the math-minded Browns.

If a guy 'reportedly' struggles in man coverage you would not want him lined up as an X-WR so if Roto thinks that he is a slot WR then I'd go with that till I hear otherwise.

 

[Biabreakable]

Interesting. I was thinking Higgins would be a fit as the flanker. I still don't know much about Payton, so I wondered if he might be playing split end or flanker?

Just trying to figure out where other WR besides Coleman might play in the absence of Gordon. Other players besides these two ahead in the depth chart?

 

[Ilov80s]

Is Corey Coleman, Josh Gordon and Terrell Pryor the ultimate upside bait WR trio ever? It's definitely an interesting trio of players with some jaw dropping athletic gifts. 

 

[Biabreakable]

I don't know much about Pryor. Starting flanker for now?

 

[Borden]

From what I'm reading would the Browns be moving to a spread based team? If so, would Barnidge kick out or would the likely run with 4 WRs?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

From what I'm reading would the Browns be moving to a spread based team? If so, would Barnidge kick out or would the likely run with 4 WRs?

You are referring to the article I linked in a post above.

I cut out a lot from that article.  

The author was pimping that the Browns would employ some Baylor looks into the offense and reports indicate the Browns were installing 'some' Baylor looks so the author showed how effective the 'twins' look was not only for the passing game but also in opening up the inside running game.

http://nflspinzone.com/2016/05/04/cleveland-browns-may-like-just-baylors-players/

If the defensive backs slide out wide, the offensive line potentially finds themselves in a five on five situation where if they simple get bodies on blocks, their running back gets a lot of free yardage before running into contact. Play too tight and the quarterback can throw a screen pass, quick hitch or go route to punish the opponent.

In order to really stop this offense, the defense needs athletes with range that are very smart and be able to hold up when Baylor ramps up the tempo. If a defense can cover the outside receivers and control the running game, putting them in predictable situations, it really short circuits what Baylor wants to do.

Obviously, that is just part of what Baylor does offensively, but let’s look at a very basic concept of what Baylor does and see how the Browns could employ it:

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/136/files/2016/05/BaylorSpreadRPO.jpg

This is a simple power run with an option to throw wide receiver screens to both sides. The quarterback, in this case, Robert Griffin III, basically goes up to the line of scrimmage and sees where the defense lines up and goes wherever the number advantage is.

If the defense plays close to the box, he throws to whichever wide receiver screen he likes better. If the middle of the field looks open, he goes ahead and gives to the running back who goes behind the pulling right guard and hopefully has some open real estate. ...




 

That really is a good read and there is a lot more so go to the link for the full article.

Back to your point, the author of the article has also speculated that the team could use two-tight sets and mentions that further along in the article:

The Browns basically have one inline tight on the roster currently. Randall Telfer, who missed last year with a foot injury and hasn’t played a down yet. Gary Barnidge is better in space. Seth DeValve was the other weapon the Browns drafted and he is best utilized in space.

Barnidge and DeValve could both be in the slot on opposite sides creating potential mismatches. They could put Barnidge out wide and have him block a corner for Coleman on a quick pass. The options are virtually endless and it’s about creating problems for the defense to try to stop.




 

So the Browns could run the Baylor 'twins' set from an empty set using slot-WRs or from two-tight sets.

Much of this is speculation but it is reasonable speculation.

We need to see how the rookie WRs and TE positions shake out in camp.

So far, Coleman is operating from the X and is looking good from all reports but once JG is back and active I think they would want both of those guys on the field at the same time.  Terrell Pryor has mouth watering skills but he only caught one pass last year so I'm more cautious in predicting him to get into base sets.

It is still early but so far so good with Coleman.  He is going to see a lot of action even when JG comes back IMHO.

 

[Rodeojones]

Corey Coleman vs Justin Gilbert

Link

 

[Ilov80s]

I don't know much about Pryor. Starting flanker for now?

Sounds like it might be. Who knows if he can play the position, but her certainly has all the measurables in the world. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Quick video report from Browns training camp.

Guess who the beat writers making the report chose as the best-looking player in camp?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs4vjDJjGXM


Cleveland Browns training camp report: Day 5




Published on Aug 2, 2016
Mary Kay Cabot and Dan Labbe, cleveland.com Browns beat writers, discuss the news of the day during Day 5 of Cleveland Browns training camp in Berea.

 

[ZWK]

• Rashard Higgins
  

He had an unusually high percentage of screens for his pass receptions as CSU, 26 and 23%.  

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-debate-is-rashard-higgins-a-better-wr-prospect-than-will-fuller/

I’m glad you brought up bubble screens! Because while they are a nice skill to have, they are far less prevalent in the NFL, with some teams not using them at all. In Higgins’ vaunted 2014 season, 26.6 percent of his yards and 23.9 percent of his receiving grade came on screens. That’s a quarter of his production that will almost completely vanish in the NFL





 

That is a ridiculously high percentage of receptions where the point would be to get the ball into his hands in space with blockers out in front.  That skill set fits best for a slot WR not someone who is lined up on the line of scrimmage like the X.  Think the Patriots infamous 'bubble screen'.

The skill set he showed in college would be a nice fit for a slot WR IMHO but I haven't heard where he is lining up.

Higgins had success all over the place in 2014. If you remove the 26.6% of his yards that came through screens, he still had 107 non-screen receiving yards per game which was the 8th most in college football (with everyone else getting to keep their screen yards).

 

[Soulfly3]

Oooooooo zwk with the knowledge 

 

[Joe T]

Shark pool = serious business

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Higgins had success all over the place in 2014. If you remove the 26.6% of his yards that came through screens, he still had 107 non-screen receiving yards per game which was the 8th most in college football (with everyone else getting to keep their screen yards).




 

Mike Clay ranked all NFL 3rd WRs.  He says that rookie WR Rashard Higgins is currently the Z (flanker) and notes that when Josh Gordon comes back he will struggle to see the field.  Clay is echoing what I have been saying.  Corey Coleman is currently playing X and when Josh Gordon comes back the team would want Coleman and JG on the field together so Coleman would move to flanker (Z).  Hawkins is healthy and is the unquestioneded starting slot (Y) WR..

http://www.espn.com/fantasy/football/story/_/id/17200798/mike-clay-examines-fantasy-value-nfl-no-3-wide-receivers-ranking-fantasy-football

26. Rashard Higgins, Cleveland Browns

Higgins was the last of four wide receivers selected by Cleveland in April's draft (and that doesn't include TE/WR tweener Seth Devalve). Higgins is running ahead of fellow rookies Ricardo Louis and Jordan Payton, however, and is the favorite for early-season No. 3 duties behind Corey Coleman and slot manAndrew Hawkins. Of course, once Josh Gordon returns from suspension, Higgins will struggle to see the field. New Browns coach Hue Jackson operated as Cincinnati's offensive coordinator the past two years. The Bengals ranked right in the middle of the league in three-wise sets when passing during that span. Jackson ran the Raiders' offense in 2010 and '11, and the team ranked below average in the category both seasons. Cleveland's inevitable 2016 struggles will mean a lot of garbage-time opportunity for its receivers, but scoring opportunity simply won't be there for Higgins & Co.




 

 

[Faust]

Teammate compares Browns rookie to one of the NFL's best short receivers ever

 

[Faust]

Browns associate head coach Pep Hamilton says Corey Coleman can "score the ball."
"He’s scored a bunch when we’ve had some of this live stuff," Josh McCown said. "The cool thing about Corey is, he’s still learning, but when the ball touches his hands, he’s exactly why you picked him. That’s impressive to me." Coleman has been turning heads since camp started, with coach Hue Jackson praising his ability to "stack good days together." Even with shaky quarterback play, Coleman profiles as an immediate WR3.

 
 
Source: clevelandbrowns.com 
Aug 4 - 10:45 PM

 

[Faust]

ESPN Cleveland's Tony Grossi says Corey Coleman has looked like the "real deal" so far at Browns camp.
Some may have forecasted Coleman would struggle coming out of Baylor's wide-open spread offense, but that hasn't been the case so far. To varying degrees, Josh Gordon, Kendall Wright, and Terrance Williams have all had relatively smooth transitions into the NFL coming out of the same system. Coleman will open the season as the Browns' No. 1 receiver. He will likely lose targets when Gordon comes off suspension in Week 5.

 
 
Source: Tony Grossi on Twitter 
Aug 4 - 1:36 PM

 

[AtomicDogg97]

Browns first team scrimmage tonight. Coleman is lighting it up.

https://twitter.com/RuiterWrongFAN/status/761709651897511936

https://twitter.com/CharlesRobinson/status/761703519292272640

https://twitter.com/NathanZegura/status/761703241340088320

https://twitter.com/MichaelReghi/status/761703719746535426

 

[Biabreakable]

 

[Milkman]

Corey Coleman is the #1 prospect in this draft.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Baylor coach Art Briles once described Coleman's competitiveness as "he'll pull your heart out and watch it stop beating."

I love that quote.

 

[Ilov80s]

Have a feeling he's going to light the league up right away. I'm actually surprised he wasn't a higher pick in the draft. Am I crazy for thinking he's a better prospect than Cooper? Cooper set a high bar last year, but I am so excited to see CoCo try to match it.

 

[TripItUp]

Just went 6.07 in my ffpc league...I had him valued in the 9th round...hype train in full effect.

 

[Milkman]

Have a feeling he's going to light the league up right away. I'm actually surprised he wasn't a higher pick in the draft. Am I crazy for thinking he's a better prospect than Cooper? Cooper set a high bar last year, but I am so excited to see CoCo try to match it.

I don't think he'll get enough targets after Gordon comes back but he's being undervalued. I'd take him 1.01 in rookie drafts but I know I'm in a minority there. Coleman isn't even going 1.02 in a lot of drafts though...... He's more 1.03 or even 1.04.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Glad I got in on the ground floor of this thing. The league where I own him is a devy league. Dealt JuJu straight up for him, had a feeling Coleman might build a crazy hype train. 

 

[Ilov80s]

I don't think he'll get enough targets after Gordon comes back but he's being undervalued. I'd take him 1.01 in rookie drafts but I know I'm in a minority there. Coleman isn't even going 1.02 in a lot of drafts though...... He's more 1.03 or even 1.04.

I'm not sold on Gordon being all that great this year. Coleman is the future of the franchise. They won't stunt his development for Gordon. Gordon helps IMO. He suppresses CoCo's redraft value and tajes defensive attention away.

 

[Soulfly3]

The Fly recommended him, hard... Just like I did ODB

If you got some knucklehead who doesnt read in the offseason, acquire asap