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Official EJ Manuel (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter PinkydaPimp
- Start date
If you agree, then you should agree that it doesn't make any sense to compare him to those guys- completely different circumstances.
Faust
MVP
Digging into new Bills coach Rex Ryan's first comments on EJ Manuel:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24961931/digging-into-new-bills-coach-rex-ryans-first-comments-on-ej-manuel
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24961931/digging-into-new-bills-coach-rex-ryans-first-comments-on-ej-manuel
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
FWIW, I think these comments from Hue Jackson, along with the "clean slate" comment yesterday, is revealing about how the front office views Manuel and who was making the starting QB decisions last year:
Now, maybe I'm just reading too much into this and/or maybe the team is just putting a nice shine on their only option at this point, but Jackson's comments seem to indicate that the front office truly does like Manuel. And the "clean slate" comment would seem to infer that the people that had made a decision on Manuel and written him off are no longer there.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
The Bills have kind of painted themselves in a corner with drafting Manuel and then Watkins while also giving up their 1st round pick in 2015 for Watkins.
Zyphros
Footballguy
They did that with Orton, and I assume Manuel looked better in training camp and OTA's because he started the season. So maybe that did push Manuel a little bit having that competition. Now they look like they are going to do that again with a different QB to push him and hope he keeps improving. My guess is EJ starts the season again and it's anyone's guess whether he keeps it or loses the battle to some rookie or FA signing vet.Tool said:
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
flysack
Footballguy
Actually, this was the problem. For whatever reason (coaching? Manuel?) Manuel looked god awful in training camp last year. He wasn't pulled because of 4 subpar games, but those games combined with a terrible training camp and preseason.
Whether that was because Marrone was awful at developing QBs or because Manuel himself regressed, remains to be seen.
But considering that the offensive line also regressed, I tend to think it was more the coaches than Manuel. Have you ever heard of a young QB get worse his second year without some kind of side drama involved? But Manuel is a clean guy - hard worker, dedicated, good kid through and through.
I'm not saying he'll be the great starting QB. I'm saying I tend to believe Marrone & Hackett screwed him up.
I look around this room, and I see nothing but untapped potential...
http://wn.com/geico_-_you_have_potential
pyite76
Footballguy
Just took over a dynasty team and Manuel is one of my new players. Admittedly, I don't see many Bills games being in Chicago.
What's the deal on Manuel? It seems by looking at his game logs he hasn't played terribly statistically?
He's played in 14 games.... 10 of them have been statistically OK. Not great, but OK. Average statistically. 1 was average. 3 were stinkers.
10 out of 14 games with decent stats, not awful. Why is this guy being treated like he has the plague in Buffalo?
Any help is appreciated...Thanks.
What's the deal on Manuel? It seems by looking at his game logs he hasn't played terribly statistically?
He's played in 14 games.... 10 of them have been statistically OK. Not great, but OK. Average statistically. 1 was average. 3 were stinkers.
10 out of 14 games with decent stats, not awful. Why is this guy being treated like he has the plague in Buffalo?
At this point ANYTHING would be better than Manuel? McCown is a bum, sorry, decent stats with the Bears be dam*ed. He was bagging groceries and coaching HS football before the Bears signed him. Trestman singlehandedly coached him up to a multimillion dollar deal. The rubber met the road last year in TB and he showed his real colors... Back to Manuel. Is he really this bad, and if so, how is this being quantified? Buffalo has never given him a good set of weapons.
Any help is appreciated...Thanks.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Manuel is afraid to throw the ball. He won't make the tough throws and he is slow in pulling the trigger. Everything he threw was short and he rarely lead receivers well. There were lots of open downfield receivers that he saw, but didn't throw the ball to.
There's a good argument to be made that it's because an ultra conservative Marrone scared him into playing like that. But even if it was, the question is whether he can get confidence and just make throws.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I'm not saying that Manuel shouldn't be more assertive, but saying that the Bills struggled with Manuel but almost made the playoffs with Orton gives WAY too much credit to Orton. Buffalo's wins were thanks to the defense, not Orton. Orton easily cost them more games than he won. Their stats are very similar and the only reason Orton's winning percentage wasn't exactly the same is because New England laid down for the last game of the season.
That Rotoworld analysis is some of the dumbest stuff I've ever read.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Manuel is the only one with any upside I think. Marrone was the coach who just quit right? I wouldn't put any stock in a coach like that's decisions. That reeks of a man afraid to lose. No wonder his you Qb played like a man afraid to let it rip.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I would feel much more confident if they'd hired a coach who wasn't a Qb killer though. Rex has shown zero acumen on offense. Sanchize actually got worse the longer he suffered under Rex.
Zyphros
Footballguy
Do you chop that up to Rex's play calling (was he the one calling plays) or wouldn't that more be on the OC or QB coach? Obviously everyone sort of falls under Rex's rule because he was head coach, but shouldn't at least some of the blame with Sanchez go to someone else? I have no idea who that is/was, and although Rex has a lot to prove with a development of a QB, Sanchez isn't entirely his fault.
Does that make Greg Roman a good fit? Again I don't know how much control he will have over Manuel, or any of the QB's for that matter. Or his QB coach, whoever that is. Rex get's the success if Manuel succeeds but the blame goes all on him too, and I feel that's unfair.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
It always just seemed like offense was an afterthought with Rex. But I'm not sure on the valid questions you pose. I hope it's different. The Buffalo offensive weapons are much better than anything Sanchez had.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Let's wait to see if he ever gets another head coaching job again before judging whether or not he made a good choice. When he first quit, he was lauded as a genius because he was going to be the #1 head coach candidate available. A few weeks later and he got signed on as the offensive line coach as a favor from a friend.
If he never gets another head coaching job, then his decision was incredibly foolish and destroyed his career. In that case, the "free" $4M would end up costing him a whole lot more in the long run.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Not excactly the heart of a lion either.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Not excactly the heart of a lion either.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I can agree with that.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I guess I am willing to give Manuel the benefit of the doubt. He's entering his third season now though and is 25 already. He's going to need to write his story soon.
cstu
Footballguy
From To Draft Tm Lg G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Sk Y/A Yds AY/A ANY/A ▾ Y/G W L T
Drew Brees 2001 2002 2-32 SDG NFL 18 16 335 553 60.58 3505 18 16 77.8 26 6.34 192 5.69 5.10 194.7 8 8 0
EJ Manuel 2013 2014 1-16 BUF NFL 15 14 256 437 58.58 2810 16 12 78.5 34 6.43 203 5.93 5.07 187.3 6 8 0
Drew Brees 2001 2002 2-32 SDG NFL 18 16 335 553 60.58 3505 18 16 77.8 26 6.34 192 5.69 5.10 194.7 8 8 0
EJ Manuel 2013 2014 1-16 BUF NFL 15 14 256 437 58.58 2810 16 12 78.5 34 6.43 203 5.93 5.07 187.3 6 8 0
We get it. Brees career didn't start well. And Brady was a 6th round pick. Those are what are called outliers.
Zyphros
Footballguy
It's still fair to point out. Manuel's career book isn't finished yet, and he could end up being another exception to the rule.
cstu
Footballguy
I'm hardly saying Manuel will be Brees and don't own Manuel anywhere, but I find their similar starts very interesting. Brees was benched for Flutie and Manuel was benched for Orton. Neither looked like NFL QB's two years in.
Things changed for Brees when he got Antonio Gates to go along with LT in the running game. Manuel now has better weapons (McCoy, Clay, Watkins, Harvin) than Brees did so we should know early on whether he's a NFL QB.
This is a good example of stats not telling the whole story. Brees was a much better college player and pro prospect than EJ, who has always been more of an athlete than a polished QB.
I'm sorry i just don't really see them having similar stats as all that relevant. He does have improved weapons, there's no denying that. He's got to win the starting job first, which i personally wouldn't bet on.
cstu
Footballguy
I'm not betting on him either, but we've really got carried writing QB's off after limited playing time. If I put odds on him being a decent starting QB it would be 10:1. The odds are stacked against him but I've seen guy like Eli, Stafford, McNabb, and Alex Smith develop after even worse play than Manuel.
flysack
Footballguy
All those guys had organizational and coaching support though, with the exception of Alex Smith who went through a brutal 5 year opener with 5 different offensive coordinators (if I recall correctly). EJ has had 1 coach who pulled the rug out from under him in a cheap "win now" gambit that blew up in his coach's face. It's probably good for him that Marrone left in disgrace. Will Rex commit to him for the year, or will he be thrown out after just four games again? You have to wonder, with Cassell on the roster. This just feels like more of the same (Orton/Cassell). I wouldn't bet on EJ developing into squat because of this.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
EJ Manuel was screwed the minute Kevin Kolb endured his career ending concussion. He needed a couple of years of sitting and learning. That injury changed expectations and everything for Manuel.
You keep bringing different comparisons up, but I'm guessing you haven't watched EJ play much. He wasn't on the same level as any of the guys you've mentioned as a prospect.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
I'm not going to sit down and watch old tape to prove it to myself, but rookies often look like rookies and then we forget after they mature we forget how bad they looked. I agree with CSTU in that we (and the NFL in general) tend to jump the gun a bit. The league used to give these guys 2 or 3 years to learn the ropes, and now they often throw them to the wolves and expect miracles in year one. The elite QBs are PARTIALLY elite because they know their systems to a T. Many of the new guys don't get the opportunities to become vets. And it's not just a matter of years on the job. When you start early, your focus isn't on learning how to play the game, it's on winning the game (and keeping your head on your shoulders on bad teams), which is lot different.
Manuel had some things to learn - STILL has things to learn. But it takes longer when it isn't your focus. I don't think it's a big shock that there is so much instability and desperation at QB in the NFL right now. I think there are likely a fair amount of guys who COULD have been legit NFL QBs if they had been given a chance to develop, but who are now on the scrap heap as busts.
cstu
Footballguy
It depends on what you mean 'as a prospect'. Manuel absolutely had all the tools coming into the NFL, but wasn't a finished product. No one was surprised when he didn't do well his rookie year. It would have been nice to see more development his second year but the talent is there.
This is basically my point. The reason I'm not very optimistic about Manuel has little to do with his rookie season (or last year). He's never really shown that he can do the things it takes to be a successful NFL QB, unlike most of the other guys he listed. They still had to learn a lot and adapt/adjust to the pro game, but Manuel has to actually become a good QB instead of being a good athlete playing QB.
I'm not completely writing him off, just pointing out that he's in a very different category than most of those other guys.
He had many (not all) of the physical tools, but he lacked/still lacks the all-important mental side of the game. It's very different than guys like Brees, Eli, etc.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
And I think after Eli's rookie season, MANY fans/analysts/gms etc were wondering if Eli really had what it takes to play. Not physically, but mentally. He had the arm, but he was making a lot of very poor decisions. He was making bad reads, not taking shots when he should have, taking shots when he shouldn't have, not displaying any leadership, etc. Basically, saying the same things about him that are now being said (rightfully) about Manuel. I don't see how that is a different category.humpback said:
OldMilwaukee
IBL Representative
Like I said, it has almost nothing to do with the rookie season. Look at their college careers- Eli was far and away the better QB, he just took some time to adjust to the NFL game like most QBs do.
The reason EJ is in a different category is because he's never been on their level as a QB.
cstu
Footballguy
Their last two seasons:
Manuel - 66.4%, 38 TD/18 INT (2.1 TD/INT ratio), 8.8 YPA, 461 yards rushing
Eli - 60.3%, 49 TD/24 INT (2.0 TD/INT ratio), 8.2 YPA, -148 yards rushing
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