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***OFFICIAL*** FFA MLB Draft (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
To defend the Pedro selection, all I can really do is let the numbers speak for themselves. I really think if you forget everything you know about Pedro, take a step back and look at the numbers objectively, his career, even to date, compares with any pitcher in history.I know he's recent, but we're talking about a guy who throws Sub-2 ERAs in a time when the league ERA approaches 5. And even in terms of longevity, he's not that far behind. Koufax goes #2 overall based on a 5 year run of dominance. Pedro's 7 year run from 97-03 was just as dominant IMO.I honestly think the only reason this pick catches so much heat is because he's active and we haven't had the time to reflect on just how amazing his dominance has been.
First of all, I don't see what your rational argument for being an ###hole is. Why call me son? Am I your son? Do I like/respect/look up to you? Nope. I think you're kind of an ###hole. Chief.I said Mays was better "all-around." That's still true. Bolding the categories that Aaron won by pretty insignificant margins (5 HR?) doesn't make it a decisive victory. Do you want to argue that Aaron was a better hitter that year? I think the numbers will bear you out. He hit for a higher average and more power. You using nine categories which go directly to support that doesn't strengthen that argument any more; it has already been conceded.is this your answer that you said you gave? you're going to have to do a tad bit better than that, son.but let's examine the facts, since you said Mays was better.
Mays v Aaron 1959
BA
Mays- 313
Aaron-355
OBP
M-381
A-401
SLG
M-583
A-636
OPS
M-.964
A-1.037
Runs
M-125
A-116
Hits
M-180
A-223
Total bases
M-335
A-400
Home Runs
M-34
A-39
RBI
M-104
A-123
Outfield assists
M-6
A-12
let's see..that's 9 categories to 1 for Mays. How was he better again? I'll give you the walks category, despite Aaron having the better .20 better OBP.
you're going to have to do a LOT better than that next time.
this smiley was created just for you in this very situation
Again, however, you continued your trend of not responding to what I actually said, which is that Mays was better all around, citing the higher stolen bases (which you omitted), his general speed which made him far more valuable on the basepaths, and his fielding, which was the best in the majors and far superior to Aaron's.
So again, Mays was not only the more complete player, but the better all-around player. Citing a bunch of hitting statistics that have nothing to do with that all-around argument, after I've already conceded that Aaron was a better hitter, does nothing to support that argument.
You may not be used to this, Cappy, but you just got...
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Capella
Footballguy
a) I changed the 'son' part because I didn't want people to get the impression you were in some way related to me.b) you said Mays had the better all-around year. He didn't. Look at the numbers, they don't lie. I'm just proving a point. You keep moving the target, and I keep hitting it. I can do that all day.First of all, I don't see what your rational argument for being an ###hole is. Why call me son? Am I your son? Do I like/respect/look up to you? Nope. I think you're kind of an ###hole. Chief.I said Mays was better "all-around." That's still true. Bolding the categories that Aaron won by pretty insignificant margins (5 HR?) doesn't make it a decisive victory. Do you want to argue that Aaron was a better hitter that year? I think the numbers will bear you out. He hit for a higher average and more power. You using nine categories which go directly to support that doesn't strengthen that argument any more; it has already been conceded.is this your answer that you said you gave? you're going to have to do a tad bit better than that, son.but let's examine the facts, since you said Mays was better.
Mays v Aaron 1959
BA
Mays- 313
Aaron-355
OBP
M-381
A-401
SLG
M-583
A-636
OPS
M-.964
A-1.037
Runs
M-125
A-116
Hits
M-180
A-223
Total bases
M-335
A-400
Home Runs
M-34
A-39
RBI
M-104
A-123
Outfield assists
M-6
A-12
let's see..that's 9 categories to 1 for Mays. How was he better again? I'll give you the walks category, despite Aaron having the better .20 better OBP.
you're going to have to do a LOT better than that next time.
this smiley was created just for you in this very situation
Again, however, you continued your trend of not responding to what I actually said, which is that Mays was better all around, citing the higher stolen bases (which you omitted), his general speed which made him far more valuable on the basepaths, and his fielding, which was the best in the majors and far superior to Aaron's.
So again, Mays was not only the more complete player, but the better all-around player. Citing a bunch of hitting statistics that have nothing to do with that all-around argument, after I've already conceded that Aaron was a better hitter, does nothing to support that argument.
You may not be used to this, Cappy, but you just got...
c) stolen bases are fine. 9-3 Aaron. Still kills your basepaths argument considering Aaron was on more, and scored more runs, but whatever makes you happy there.
d) you're forgetting I took Mays with my first pick, and just recently said that he and Ruth are 1 and 1a. All I'm doing here is throwing away your argument that Aaron was never the best player when he played, or even the most dominant. I've given two years now where he tore the league apart. I can give more. You're wrong, move on.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
I think you should be able to take them, but as long as everyone takes a 4 or 5 man rotation I don't think many will go, if any.The fear of course is that someone will draft their entire hitting lineup and then grab Ole Hoss Radbourn in the 10th round and throw him every day.We could make a formal rule about rotation size but I don't think it's even necessary. As long as everyone keeps the pitching evaluation centered around metrics and performance relative to the era, and doesn't tout absurd numbers like 60 wins and 500 innings as meaningful, I think we'll be fine.
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Funkley
Collar: Up
I think looking for dominant Aaron seasons misses the real point. His 'domination' was his streak of consistent excellence. I'm not sure you can find a player outside of Nolan Ryan who was at his peak for as long as Aaron was. A guy like Jimmie Foxx may have been more 'dominant' but he did it for 7 years. Aaron was an allstar player for 20 years. Unheard of.
Apparently for you, all-around means all around the hitting statistics, because that is all you cited. For those of us who have played baseball and understand the full game, we know that defense and baserunning are also fundamental to greatness. Given your love of little showdown numbers, here's one for you, for that year:Hitting: Aaron Mays
Defense: Aaron Mays
Speed/Baserunning: Aaron Mays
Mays wins 2-1.
The target hasn't moved, friend. I've said over and over that Mays was better all-around that year, and all you have cited are hitting statistics. That does nothing to burnish your argument--hitting was already conceded.
As shuke cited before, he never was, and your devotion to him can't change that reality. Whenever Aaron was playing, either Mantle was the best player in the game, or Mays, or someone else. It was never Aaron. But hey, at least he played as long as Robert Parish...
No, the only good historical data we have on that is observation and stuff which has been broken down by people who know way more about metrics than I do... they judge that Mays had a speed of 89 on a scale of 100, and Aaron 65. Pretty big difference. That jives as well with most of the historical accounts I've read. I think stats, inc, whatifsports, and maybe elias? all have those speed numbers, as well as defensive grades.
And this is fine to say. Throughout this thread, I have said many times that it is great and outstanding that Aaron performed at a very good level during his entire long career. All I said is that he was never at any point individually brilliant, the best player in the league, or anything like that... and some people just can't deal with their childhood idols being torn down, I guess.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
I love reading you guys. Keep up the good work. Its like watching the Real World, only you talk about things I care about.If I may weigh in as a 3rd party, can't several players be great over the same period of time? The simple fact that you can argue both sides could point to that.Ted Williams and Joe D. played at the same time, they were both pretty good.Go Honus Wagner!Go Rogers Hornsby!(my favorite picks thus far)
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
A good point. Outfield assists in baseball are a lot like interceptions in football.The best arms don't get too many because no one thinks of testing them. The weak arms get picked on like a bad cornerback and have lots of opportunities.Assist statistics from 1959 are almost useless. Mays was the best fielder in the league at that time, and Aaron was pretty much average. If you don't get that, and can't understand that, there's no hope arguing with a stat geek.
Capella
Footballguy
I know, I know..everything's useless except what you want to consider relevant. I think Mays is the better player. Clearly, I made him my first pick. Earlier in the thread though you said:Assist statistics from 1959 are almost useless. Mays was the best fielder in the league at that time, and Aaron was pretty much average. If you don't get that, and can't understand that, there's no hope arguing with a stat geek.
I think that's been proven wrong, over and over and over and over and over again. You can continue to live in Fantasy Land and disagree all you want, but you're wrong. He had many great seasons, many seasons where he lead the league in all sort of statistical categories, and had some of the best 4-5 year runs in history.And I'd rather be a stat
than some guy who throws baseless #### against the wall and then hopes I don't call him on it.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Honus is getting much love. And Pedro criticism hasn't taken over the thread the way I thought it might.I think I'm doing well.Okay, so there's that much... check.
Then you have a different standard of greatness than I do. For a player to be individually great at any point, I think he needs to be the best player in the league. That's why Curt Schilling will go down as a pitcher who was very very good, and Randy Johnson as a great.
I'd rather have an understanding of what really happens on a baseball field, and what contributes to someone being a complete and all-around great. But hey, that's just me. And my ### has plenty of base; I've been eating more protein.And I'd rather be a stat
Kraft...
Footballguy
MLB PLAYER DRAFT
Updated picks
ROUND ONE
1.1 pumpnick -- SP Walter Johnson
1.2 Spock -- SP Sandy Koufax
1.3 lastresort -- OF Babe Ruth
1.4 Capella -- OF Willie Mays
1.5 Nipsey -- P CY Young
1.6 Sammy3469 --OF Ted Williams
1.7 Pickles -- 1B Lou Gehrig
1.8 Harrier -- OF Barry Bonds
1.9 Doug B -- OF Stan Musial
1.10 bogart -- 2B Rogers Hornsby
1.11 Koya -- P Lefty Grove
1.12 funkley -- OF Ty Cobb
1.13 Kraft -- OF Hank Aaron
1.14 UCONN -- OF Mickey Mantle
1.15 Spartans -- SS Honus Wagner
1.16 LarryBoy -- SP Christy Mathewson
2.1 Larryboy -- SP Roger Clemens
2.2 Spartans -- SP Pedro Martinez
2.3 UCONN -- OF Tris Speaker
2.4 Kraft -- OF Joltin' Joe DiMaggio
2.5 funkley -- 1B Jimmy Foxx
2.6 koya -- on the clock
2.7 Bogart --
2.8 Doug B --
2.9 Harrier --
2.10 Pickles --
2.11 Sammy
2.12 Nipsey
2.13 Capella
2.14 Last Resort
2.15 Spock
2.16 Pumpnick
Updated picks
ROUND ONE
1.1 pumpnick -- SP Walter Johnson
1.2 Spock -- SP Sandy Koufax
1.3 lastresort -- OF Babe Ruth
1.4 Capella -- OF Willie Mays
1.5 Nipsey -- P CY Young
1.6 Sammy3469 --OF Ted Williams
1.7 Pickles -- 1B Lou Gehrig
1.8 Harrier -- OF Barry Bonds
1.9 Doug B -- OF Stan Musial
1.10 bogart -- 2B Rogers Hornsby
1.11 Koya -- P Lefty Grove
1.12 funkley -- OF Ty Cobb
1.13 Kraft -- OF Hank Aaron
1.14 UCONN -- OF Mickey Mantle
1.15 Spartans -- SS Honus Wagner
1.16 LarryBoy -- SP Christy Mathewson
2.1 Larryboy -- SP Roger Clemens
2.2 Spartans -- SP Pedro Martinez
2.3 UCONN -- OF Tris Speaker
2.4 Kraft -- OF Joltin' Joe DiMaggio
2.5 funkley -- 1B Jimmy Foxx
2.6 koya -- on the clock
2.7 Bogart --
2.8 Doug B --
2.9 Harrier --
2.10 Pickles --
2.11 Sammy
2.12 Nipsey
2.13 Capella
2.14 Last Resort
2.15 Spock
2.16 Pumpnick
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Capella
Footballguy
this was never, ever in dispute...Aaron's singular greatness in separate seasons was. this is what I mean when I say I'm trying to hit a moving target. and I have quite the understanding as to what happens on a baseball field..but when a guy leads in 8/10 substantial categories, you kind of have to say he may have had the better year. even if you want to argue stolen bases, which can be dismissed by looking at total bases and runs scored.
Funkley
Collar: Up
I think the NBA draft changed some perspectives on what is and isn't a strange pick. The simulation factor makes me cautious too. You might easily get the last laugh if Simulation Pedro is as good as I'm beginning to think he might be. Like Kraft, Bogey and some others I didn't/don't want to draft with the simulation too much in mind and focus on the vintage guys. Pedro wasn't on my radar but you might end up being right.
And Pedro criticism hasn't taken over the thread the way I thought it might.
I think I'm doing well.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
I was dreaming of the Hornsby-Wagner DP combo as well. Would have been unreal.Love the Wagner pick. I was hoping and praying that he made it back to me. Pairing Wagner with Rajah would have been super sweet.
Capella
Footballguy
we need somebody to break down the first-round picks.after Ferris and I took the gloves off in the hoops draft 
, I'm not sure he's going to do that again here. if I get a chance tonight or at work in the morning, I'll write up a review (excluding my team)..unless somebody else gets to it first. even then, I may feel inclined.
, I'm not sure he's going to do that again here. if I get a chance tonight or at work in the morning, I'll write up a review (excluding my team)..unless somebody else gets to it first. even then, I may feel inclined.
I don't understand... when Koya was leaving, he was told that his pick was going to be any second, that both the guys in front of him were here, and that he should leave a list. And then his pick came 5 minutes later and he was gone. I mean, I can understand if people ahve no idea, or are asleep or something, but he was even warned...
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Either
or 
. You choose.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Amen...The powers of PM I think there were a couple of bonehead picks in round 1 and a couple of value picks (Ruth, Bonds). I was surprised in the order some of the hitters went. In my mind there's no way Musial should go before Aaron or Cobb, but that's why we do this. I'm also sort of surprised the pitching went so early. There was really only three pitchers I would have even considered in Round 1, but I can see the logic.
Funkley
Collar: Up
Well I could do thisEither
to the hot chick in contracting. But she'd be all 
and 
about it. I could then blame it on but I'd still get my ### kicked for it :blackeye:. Then I'd have to explain it to Mrs Funk 
and then the other eye would get it. :blackeye:. So I better just sit here 
.
Doug B
Footballguy
Here's what I came up with in picking Musial before Aaron: in my ballpark (Griffith Stadium), Aaron basically turns into slightly-lower-batting-average Musial, statistically. Conversely, my park helps Musial's power numbers -- which were already at 475 homers for his career.Otherwise, I'm with you -- no way did I expect Aaron to be there at 1.09..
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Capella
Footballguy
Biggest Value in Rd 1
1. Babe, 1.03
2. Mays, 1.04
3. Bonds 1.08/Wagner, 1.15
***Bonds/Mays should've gone 1/2 in my opinion, Wagner could've went top-5, as could Bonds. All 4 of those guys went way too far down the list.
Worst Value in Rd 1
1. Koufax, 1.02
2. Musial, 1.09
3. Johnson, 1.01
***Breaks my heart to have Musial on this list, but he went a shade too early..you could argue Joe D was the better player and he went 10 picks later. And I don't think too many would have Musial > Mantle on their all-time beisbol cheatsheets.
Koufax was a machine in his prime, one of the top-3 lefties ever, and put up some absolutely disgusting stats..but he wasn't the second-best player of all-time. You could argue he wasn't even the second-best lefty of all-time. Spock had Mays AND Ruth to choose from there and really screwed the pooch.
I have The Big Train as the third worst pick of the round, not because of his accomplishments, but just because the pull of having Ruth there for the taking and passing him up was just too much. The majority of baseball and stat geeks concede Babe was the greatest player ever, and I've never heard Johnson enter that discussion. WJ would not have been there later on for Pump to pick, but other dominant righties would've been..and he would've had Babe already in the bag.
Just my
1. Babe, 1.03
2. Mays, 1.04
3. Bonds 1.08/Wagner, 1.15
***Bonds/Mays should've gone 1/2 in my opinion, Wagner could've went top-5, as could Bonds. All 4 of those guys went way too far down the list.
Worst Value in Rd 1
1. Koufax, 1.02
2. Musial, 1.09
3. Johnson, 1.01
***Breaks my heart to have Musial on this list, but he went a shade too early..you could argue Joe D was the better player and he went 10 picks later. And I don't think too many would have Musial > Mantle on their all-time beisbol cheatsheets.
Koufax was a machine in his prime, one of the top-3 lefties ever, and put up some absolutely disgusting stats..but he wasn't the second-best player of all-time. You could argue he wasn't even the second-best lefty of all-time. Spock had Mays AND Ruth to choose from there and really screwed the pooch.
I have The Big Train as the third worst pick of the round, not because of his accomplishments, but just because the pull of having Ruth there for the taking and passing him up was just too much. The majority of baseball
and stat geeks concede Babe was the greatest player ever, and I've never heard Johnson enter that discussion. WJ would not have been there later on for Pump to pick, but other dominant righties would've been..and he would've had Babe already in the bag.Just my
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Koya
Footballguy
I was tempted to go with another pitcher here (the #3 pitcher on my board is still available) - however I believe there is enough depth to get someone that will perform very very well with my next pick.
However, there are only a couple position players that are, without much (in this case I think any) arguement that they were the best ever at their position.
How many 3 Time MVPs are there... one with a WS MVP as well.
Although I hoped for the overall game of Wagner to drop, I am still very happy with:
Mike Schmidt - best 3rd baseman ever, and someone who hit 550 homers in an era where batters were not favored (8 home run crowns). 10 Straight Gold gloves at the hot corner is nice, too.
Will complete the write up in a min.
However, there are only a couple position players that are, without much (in this case I think any) arguement that they were the best ever at their position.
How many 3 Time MVPs are there... one with a WS MVP as well.
Although I hoped for the overall game of Wagner to drop, I am still very happy with:
Mike Schmidt - best 3rd baseman ever, and someone who hit 550 homers in an era where batters were not favored (8 home run crowns). 10 Straight Gold gloves at the hot corner is nice, too.
Will complete the write up in a min.
