***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (6 Viewers)

[timschochet]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

I'd be scared of drunk drivers, distracted drivers and swimming poos as i am pretty certain they kill more children in a year then gun owners. Every day, about ten people die from unintentional drowning. Of these, two are children aged 14 or younger. Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.Now honestly gun ban folks, can you say your desire to ban guns is not an emotionally driven response based on the above info? Have you ever demanded we ban swimming? Swimming is an enjoyable hobby for some just like shooting is to others.

I'm not scared of law abiding gun owners. And there are very few "gun ban folks" in this thread.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

The "gun guys" aren't scared of any of it.Not you. Not Tim.Not the parents of those little darlings that were tragically gunned down.Not criminals.not politicians.You know why? Because nothing is going to change. They might ban large magazines and plastic clip ons which make guns look different but it wont last. Clinton did it once. How long did that last?We live in the safest time in our nations history. People all have their panties in a bunch because the media has them thinking they haven't even the slightest clue what they're talking about. What that little psycho did was human compared to the hundreds of thousands of more horrific blood curdling killings which have previously taken place that you just aren't aware of. Far worse stuff has and will continue to happen with or without guns. So try and ban ASSAULT WEAPONSOMGROXXORS!!!!!11111 to your hearts content. The same killers will just buy FAR, FAR more powerful weapons that simply don't look like the weapons you're so comically afraid of. The next person who says "ASSAULT WEAPONS need to be banned" should be stoned to death. You sound like a complete uneducated moron every single time you do this.

 

[BassNBrew]

I agree that both Hollywood and video games may be contributing factors to mass shootings. But what is to be done? I support specific proposals in the case of guns because they might have a positive effect. In the case of Hiollywood and video games, I have no specific proposals to offer. Does anyone?

Ban the production, distribution, or sale of any movie depicting gun violence. Any previously released movies would be grandfathered. I'm sorry if some people's movie hobby will be curtailed, but if it would save one child, it would be worth it. The first admendment does come with some restrictions, so this will just be another.

 

[jonessed]

One more question. If there is a room with 100 children and and three unarmed adults. How many of these 103 unarmed people would be killed if a manic walked in with an AR15 with 5 30 round magazines or with 15 10 round magazines?How much of a difference would there be and would you feel better about it?

How does one carry 15, 10 round mags? Where does he have these so he can quickly load these? Authorities said that Lanza was so fast b/c he taped 2 magazines together? So if the authorities say this is why it was so fast, I guess I'll take their word for it. So more magazines, is less ability to tape them together. People on here say they can change a magazine in less than a second, but that would be under ideal conditions. Not running around in chaos. Odds are he'd have to carry around 15 mags in a bag where he would fumble for it. I guarantee any study will show that someone can get off many more bullets, the bigger the clips are.

Slam your head all you want, but we're going to find a way to make these ####ers illegal.

 

[timschochet]

If there is one bill in Congress in January which bans assault weapons, limits the capacity of magazines, and closes the loophole, I will support it even though I oppose the ban. I will support it even if it grandfathers in stuff. It's better than nothing.

 

[BassNBrew]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

The "gun guys" aren't scared of any of it.Not you. Not Tim.Not the parents of those little darlings that were tragically gunned down.Not criminals.not politicians.You know why? Because nothing is going to change. They might ban large magazines and plastic clip ons which make guns look different but it wont last. Clinton did it once. How long did that last?We live in the safest time in our nations history. People all have their panties in a bunch because the media has them thinking they haven't even the slightest clue what they're talking about. What that little psycho did was human compared to the hundreds of thousands of more horrific blood curdling killings which have previously taken place that you just aren't aware of. Far worse stuff has and will continue to happen with or without guns. So try and ban ASSAULT WEAPONSOMGROXXORS!!!!!11111 to your hearts content. The same killers will just buy FAR, FAR more powerful weapons that simply don't look like the weapons you're so comically afraid of. The next person who says "ASSAULT WEAPONS need to be banned" should be stoned to death. You sound like a complete uneducated moron every single time you do this.

Must be an Oats alias because Tim doesn't use !!!!!1111 OMGoolXXXOOOslol

 

[pantherclub]

I agree that both Hollywood and video games may be contributing factors to mass shootings. But what is to be done? I support specific proposals in the case of guns because they might have a positive effect. In the case of Hiollywood and video games, I have no specific proposals to offer. Does anyone?

no offense but you are insane

 

[pantherclub]

I agree that both Hollywood and video games may be contributing factors to mass shootings. But what is to be done? I support specific proposals in the case of guns because they might have a positive effect. In the case of Hiollywood and video games, I have no specific proposals to offer. Does anyone?

Ban the production, distribution, or sale of any movie depicting gun violence. Any previously released movies would be grandfathered. I'm sorry if some people's movie hobby will be curtailed, but if it would save one child, it would be worth it. The first admendment does come with some restrictions, so this will just be another.

I wish I knew if you were serious or not

 

[timschochet]

I agree that both Hollywood and video games may be contributing factors to mass shootings. But what is to be done? I support specific proposals in the case of guns because they might have a positive effect. In the case of Hiollywood and video games, I have no specific proposals to offer. Does anyone?

Ban the production, distribution, or sale of any movie depicting gun violence. Any previously released movies would be grandfathered. I'm sorry if some people's movie hobby will be curtailed, but if it would save one child, it would be worth it. The first admendment does come with some restrictions, so this will just be another.

That you find this to be a reasonable analogy to what is being proposed about guns only demonstrates the extremism of the pro-gun side.

 

[boots11234]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

I'd be scared of drunk drivers, distracted drivers and swimming poos as i am pretty certain they kill more children in a year then gun owners. Every day, about ten people die from unintentional drowning. Of these, two are children aged 14 or younger. Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.Now honestly gun ban folks, can you say your desire to ban guns is not an emotionally driven response based on the above info? Have you ever demanded we ban swimming? Swimming is an enjoyable hobby for some just like shooting is to others.

as far as i know people dont walk into schools and intentionally drown 20 innocent kids in a pool of water

Totally expected that response but tell me this, in either case is one more "dead" then the other? I though the goal was to protect people? If that is indeed the intent the banning swimming is logical. I however think that is not the reason, I think the reason is to make the pro ban folks feel as if they've done something even though it will do nothing like the last ban.

 

[SoBeDad]

Here is what I'm seeing:The anti-gun posters want to have a so-called "adult" conversation about guns and where we should draw the line. The problem is we've drawn the line how many times now? Every time some criminal or nut job shoots someone, the anti-gun crowd wants to have another "adult" conversation and wants to draw line once again.It will never stop until they get to a total (or virtual) ban. That's the end game.The line is fine and doesn't need to be redrawn.

The NRA has lobbyists who attempt to redraw the line. They want guns to be allowed in college dorms and college venues. The sponsor of the bill in Florida withdrew it after the daughter of a close friend was accidentally killed by a boyfriend who was showing off his gun, while under the influence at a college apartment near FSU. The NRA wants to restrict the ability of pediatricians, psychiatrists and other doctors to ask patients and parents about firearms in the home.

 

[timschochet]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

The "gun guys" aren't scared of any of it.Not you. Not Tim.Not the parents of those little darlings that were tragically gunned down.Not criminals.not politicians.You know why? Because nothing is going to change. They might ban large magazines and plastic clip ons which make guns look different but it wont last. Clinton did it once. How long did that last?We live in the safest time in our nations history. People all have their panties in a bunch because the media has them thinking they haven't even the slightest clue what they're talking about. What that little psycho did was human compared to the hundreds of thousands of more horrific blood curdling killings which have previously taken place that you just aren't aware of. Far worse stuff has and will continue to happen with or without guns. So try and ban ASSAULT WEAPONSOMGROXXORS!!!!!11111 to your hearts content. The same killers will just buy FAR, FAR more powerful weapons that simply don't look like the weapons you're so comically afraid of. The next person who says "ASSAULT WEAPONS need to be banned" should be stoned to death. You sound like a complete uneducated moron every single time you do this.

Burton approves of this post.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

The "gun guys" aren't scared of any of it.Not you. Not Tim.Not the parents of those little darlings that were tragically gunned down.Not criminals.not politicians.You know why? Because nothing is going to change. They might ban large magazines and plastic clip ons which make guns look different but it wont last. Clinton did it once. How long did that last?We live in the safest time in our nations history. People all have their panties in a bunch because the media has them thinking they haven't even the slightest clue what they're talking about. What that little psycho did was human compared to the hundreds of thousands of more horrific blood curdling killings which have previously taken place that you just aren't aware of. Far worse stuff has and will continue to happen with or without guns. So try and ban ASSAULT WEAPONSOMGROXXORS!!!!!11111 to your hearts content. The same killers will just buy FAR, FAR more powerful weapons that simply don't look like the weapons you're so comically afraid of. The next person who says "ASSAULT WEAPONS need to be banned" should be stoned to death. You sound like a complete uneducated moron every single time you do this.

i never mentioned banning anything,im talking about the mind sets of some gun owners,not ALL gun owners BTW

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

I'd be scared of drunk drivers, distracted drivers and swimming poos as i am pretty certain they kill more children in a year then gun owners. Every day, about ten people die from unintentional drowning. Of these, two are children aged 14 or younger. Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.Now honestly gun ban folks, can you say your desire to ban guns is not an emotionally driven response based on the above info? Have you ever demanded we ban swimming? Swimming is an enjoyable hobby for some just like shooting is to others.

as far as i know people dont walk into schools and intentionally drown 20 innocent kids in a pool of water

Totally expected that response but tell me this, in either case is one more "dead" then the other? I though the goal was to protect people? If that is indeed the intent the banning swimming is logical. I however think that is not the reason, I think the reason is to make the pro ban folks feel as if they've done something even though it will do nothing like the last ban.

No #### Sherlock....do you think anyone here thinks anything will change??? hahahahaha....where in too deep and its only getting worse. I expect many many more mass shootings in the near future.

 

[General Malaise]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

 

[timschochet]

Mr. Two Cents, I also wanted to answer your question about what percent of sales falls under the private sales "gun show" loophole. According to Governor Duval Patrick of Massachutsetts, 40% of all firearms transactions are private sales and go unrecorded. I just saw him say this on CNN; I don't know his source.

If he's close to accurate, 40% is an even larger number than I had previously supposed. We really need to close this loophole. I'm really disappointed that the NRA leadership fights this idea so strongly (though the rank and file are largely in favor.)

If you continue to refuse to back up this claim, I am going to have to insist you stop using it unless you are simply trying to be a troll and avoid serious debate.

Here is the most recent survey demonstrating this: link

Thanks. You'll have to forgive me if I look at a survey done for Mayors Against Illegal Guns with the ol' squinty eyes.And I think I found the source of the 40% of all gun sales go unreported... It's a phone survey from 1994. And that 40% includes gifts/trades/purchases from friends (12%) and family members (17%)

The poll was taken by Frank Luntz, a Republican pollster who is featured on Fox News.

 

[General Malaise]

Here is what I'm seeing:The anti-gun posters want to have a so-called "adult" conversation about guns and where we should draw the line. The problem is we've drawn the line how many times now? Every time some criminal or nut job shoots someone, the anti-gun crowd wants to have another "adult" conversation and wants to draw line once again.It will never stop until they get to a total (or virtual) ban. That's the end game.The line is fine and doesn't need to be redrawn.

The NRA has lobbyists who attempt to redraw the line. They want guns to be allowed in college dorms and college venues. The sponsor of the bill in Florida withdrew it after the daughter of a close friend was accidentally killed by a boyfriend who was showing off his gun, while under the influence at a college apartment near FSU. The NRA wants to restrict the ability of pediatricians, psychiatrists and other doctors to ask patients and parents about firearms in the home.

If you are a politician today, can you in good conscience continue to support, kowtow and cater to the NRA? I think they're grip is weakening. And I think they are scared.

 

[timschochet]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

 

[BassNBrew]

I agree that both Hollywood and video games may be contributing factors to mass shootings. But what is to be done? I support specific proposals in the case of guns because they might have a positive effect. In the case of Hiollywood and video games, I have no specific proposals to offer. Does anyone?

Ban the production, distribution, or sale of any movie depicting gun violence. Any previously released movies would be grandfathered. I'm sorry if some people's movie hobby will be curtailed, but if it would save one child, it would be worth it. The first admendment does come with some restrictions, so this will just be another.

That you find this to be a reasonable analogy to what is being proposed about guns only demonstrates the extremism of the pro-gun side.

Like any other issue, it just comes down to your viewpoint and the numbers that partake in an activity.

 

[General Malaise]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

 

[timschochet]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

 

[General Malaise]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

That's why I truly believe this is a watershed moment in our history. 9/11 changed things forever. I think this tragic event will do the same.

 

[Chaos Commish]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

The NRA isn't the lobby it's been made out to be by the media. As a lobby it's been marginalized for years. Democrats created the myth so best to let the left correct itself.And more currently from the NYTimes.

 

[jonessed]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

They aren't terrified of the NRA. They are terrified of their constituents. The Columbine poll bounce for more gun control lasted less than a year and had a higher base starting point. Before this new shooting pro-gun control right polls were actually sub-50%. There will be a huge bounce, but what's it going to be two years from now? Most of these politicians are elected in conservative areas. Any vote they cast will be beat over their heads in the next election cycle by the NRA and their opponents in regions where the odds are their vote won't be looked at well to being with.There will be a vote and I'm pretty sure their will be a new assault gun ban like we had before. I think there is a pretty good consensus on that, but anything else is some serious wishful thinking.

 

[Abraham]

I was surprised to learn the NRA spent 17 million in the last election. That number seems really low to me.

 

[jonessed]

I was surprised to learn the NRA spent 17 million in the last election. That number seems really low to me.

It's not the money, it's the ability to rally massive amounts of voters who will vote on that one issue.

 

[General Malaise]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

The NRA isn't the lobby it's been made out to be by the media. As a lobby it's been marginalized for years. Democrats created the myth so best to let the left correct itself.And more currently from the NYTimes.

Good read on the NY Times. Thanks for linking. I thought the conclusion was spot on:

But public opinion looks much different when you ask people specific questions. Polls show that majorities of Americans favor almost every restriction actually being proposed to set limits on gun ownership. For example, the General Social Survey has long found three-quarters of Americans saying everyone should have to get a permit from the local police before buying a gun. A Times/CBS News poll last year found 63 percent of Americans in favor of a ban on high-capacity magazines. When we have a real debate about what steps we can take to make mass shootings less likely and less deadly, it's those kinds of specific measures we'll be discussing, not abstract "gun control," and advocates of gun safety will have the public behind them.

Perhaps the horror of 20 children being killed in Newtown will finally push members of Congress to locate their spines and begin working to pass some sensible gun legislation. Consider that on the very same day as the Newtown massacre, a deranged man walked into a school in Chengping, China and tried to kill as many children as he could. He attacked 22 of them. But because he was wielding a knife, not one of the children died.

 

[Henry Ford]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

Who's the one calling for banning guns or severely restricting the 2nd amendment? Sounds like you're the one that's scared, not gun owners.

Both sides are scared, we're just scared of different things. You guys are scared of "bad guys" We're scared of you.

The "gun guys" aren't scared of any of it.Not you. Not Tim.Not the parents of those little darlings that were tragically gunned down.Not criminals.not politicians.You know why? Because nothing is going to change. They might ban large magazines and plastic clip ons which make guns look different but it wont last. Clinton did it once. How long did that last?We live in the safest time in our nations history. People all have their panties in a bunch because the media has them thinking they haven't even the slightest clue what they're talking about. What that little psycho did was human compared to the hundreds of thousands of more horrific blood curdling killings which have previously taken place that you just aren't aware of. Far worse stuff has and will continue to happen with or without guns. So try and ban ASSAULT WEAPONSOMGROXXORS!!!!!11111 to your hearts content. The same killers will just buy FAR, FAR more powerful weapons that simply don't look like the weapons you're so comically afraid of. The next person who says "ASSAULT WEAPONS need to be banned" should be stoned to death. You sound like a complete uneducated moron every single time you do this.

KING KONG AINT GOT NOTHIN ON MEI seriously spit soda out of my nose reading this one. Thanks.

 

[Glass Joe]

Thoughts?

(CNN) - "One of these mothers from Connecticut should do an Emmett Till moment; show the picture of their child dead in the classroom."

That's a text I received earlier this week from my TV One show producer. When I got it, a chill immediately went through my body just thinking about the possibility of seeing the carnage in such a photo.

When taping this week's edition of my show, "Washington Watch," Sirius/XM Radio host Joe Madison somberly said the same thing. Joe remarked that Emmett's mother, Mamie, insisted on an open casket for her son so the world could see what was done to him by racists in Mississippi.

Many Americans may not even remember Emmett Till, a precocious 14-year-old black teenager from Chicago who went to visit his family in Mississippi. He allegedly flirted with a white woman in a store, and the woman's husband and his brother later went to the home where Till was staying, pulled him out of his bed, took him somewhere and beat him to a pulp, gouged out his eye, blew the back of his head away with a gun, attached a cotton gin with barbed wire around his neck and dumped his body in the Tallahatchie River.

When his bloated and disfigured body was recovered, it was unrecognizable. He was identified based on a ring he always wore.

When Jet magazine and the Chicago Defender newspaper published his battered face on their covers, it sent shock waves throughout America, and especially in the black community. The brutality of lynchings were talked about and covered, yet for the world to witness with its own eyes the end result of vicious bigotry, it forced the nation to examine its conscience.

"There was just no way I could describe what was in that box," Mamie said. "No way. And I just wanted the world to see."

In the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut, mass shooting, we have seen numerous photos of the beautiful, smiling faces of the 20 children and six adults slaughtered at Sandy Hook Elementary School. The images we have become accustomed to include them singing at a piano, sporting the gear of a favorite sports team and others. When we think of them being memorialized it's in the context of teddy bears, candles and flowers.

Americans want to remember them as vibrant and fun-loving children, but will that actually shake the conscience of America to do something about how they were gunned down in the classroom?

What if one of the mothers or fathers of the Newtown 20 demanded that police give them a crime scene photo of their child and they chose to show it to the world? Can you imagine a modern day Mamie Till Mobley, wracked with pain but filled with resolve to show the nation so they could bear witness to what hate did to their child?

 

[Slingblade]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

Would you be scared if you didn't have the firearms?

 

[Apple Jack]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

That's extra special.

 

[jonessed]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

Don't feed the trolls.

 

[SoBeDad]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

This has nothing to do with gun control, but would you feel just as safe with a dog or two in the house? I live in a safe neighborhood, but Princess and Lucky make me feel safe when I come home late at night and throughout the night. They would scare away potential intruders.

 

[17seconds]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

I think he meant you'd be scared if you didn't have the gun.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

That's why I truly believe this is a watershed moment in our history. 9/11 changed things forever. I think this tragic event will do the same.

I doubt it. The courts have made it very clear that the basic right to own a firearm -- including and maybe especially firearms like semiautomatic pistols -- isn't going anywhere.Moments like this are exactly why written constitutions are a good idea in the first place. They ensure that legislation passed in a hurry in response to an event like this can't go too far.

 

[timschochet]

Thoughts?(CNN) - "One of these mothers from Connecticut should do an Emmett Till moment; show the picture of their child dead in the classroom."That's a text I received earlier this week from my TV One show producer. When I got it, a chill immediately went through my body just thinking about the possibility of seeing the carnage in such a photo.When taping this week's edition of my show, "Washington Watch," Sirius/XM Radio host Joe Madison somberly said the same thing. Joe remarked that Emmett's mother, Mamie, insisted on an open casket for her son so the world could see what was done to him by racists in Mississippi.Many Americans may not even remember Emmett Till, a precocious 14-year-old black teenager from Chicago who went to visit his family in Mississippi. He allegedly flirted with a white woman in a store, and the woman's husband and his brother later went to the home where Till was staying, pulled him out of his bed, took him somewhere and beat him to a pulp, gouged out his eye, blew the back of his head away with a gun, attached a cotton gin with barbed wire around his neck and dumped his body in the Tallahatchie River.When his bloated and disfigured body was recovered, it was unrecognizable. He was identified based on a ring he always wore.When Jet magazine and the Chicago Defender newspaper published his battered face on their covers, it sent shock waves throughout America, and especially in the black community. The brutality of lynchings were talked about and covered, yet for the world to witness with its own eyes the end result of vicious bigotry, it forced the nation to examine its conscience."There was just no way I could describe what was in that box," Mamie said. "No way. And I just wanted the world to see."In the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut, mass shooting, we have seen numerous photos of the beautiful, smiling faces of the 20 children and six adults slaughtered at Sandy Hook Elementary School. The images we have become accustomed to include them singing at a piano, sporting the gear of a favorite sports team and others. When we think of them being memorialized it's in the context of teddy bears, candles and flowers.Americans want to remember them as vibrant and fun-loving children, but will that actually shake the conscience of America to do something about how they were gunned down in the classroom?What if one of the mothers or fathers of the Newtown 20 demanded that police give them a crime scene photo of their child and they chose to show it to the world? Can you imagine a modern day Mamie Till Mobley, wracked with pain but filled with resolve to show the nation so they could bear witness to what hate did to their child?

There is a big difference: in the case of Emmett Till, there was a clear answer: segregation was wrong, and most of the public saw it was a clear injustice, and if the South refused to rectify it for themselves, it would have to be solved through federal law. There is no clear solution to this issue. Even those of us in favor of some gun control laws acknowledge that we can't be sure they will work. The gun rights people who say they won't work might very well be right. It would be very incorrect, IMO, to try and invoke an "Emmett Till" response here in order to sweep all opposition aside through the force of emotion.

 

[timschochet]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

That's why I truly believe this is a watershed moment in our history. 9/11 changed things forever. I think this tragic event will do the same.

I doubt it. The courts have made it very clear that the basic right to own a firearm -- including and maybe especially firearms like semiautomatic pistols -- isn't going anywhere.Moments like this are exactly why written constitutions are a good idea in the first place. They ensure that legislation passed in a hurry in response to an event like this can't go too far.

My comment- "I hope you're right" referred specifically to the two issues of magazine limitations and ending the private sales loophole.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

That's why I truly believe this is a watershed moment in our history. 9/11 changed things forever. I think this tragic event will do the same.

I doubt it. The courts have made it very clear that the basic right to own a firearm -- including and maybe especially firearms like semiautomatic pistols -- isn't going anywhere.Moments like this are exactly why written constitutions are a good idea in the first place. They ensure that legislation passed in a hurry in response to an event like this can't go too far.

My comment- "I hope you're right" referred specifically to the two issues of magazine limitations and ending the private sales loophole.

Those are both fine IMO, but they're also fairly small, marginal changes in policy. Neither of them amount to a "this changes everything" moment.

 

[Glass Joe]

NRA got lambasted by Nightline last night. Bloomberg was less than kind. I imagine their power over politicians is waning. Sea change in America?

Well, to be fair, Bloomberg has never been a fan. The key will be what Republicans in the House and Senate do when this issue comes up for a vote. So far they have been largely silent.

They profiled a female republican politician from Tennessee who was in the hip pocking of the NRA. However, she was against allowing Tenn citizens the right to carry a gun in a car (or something). The NRA attacked her like a pack of bullies and she lost her election. She's speaking out against them now. I think more than a few republicans are going to follow her lead. We'll see. If this isn't a turning point in our country, I'll be surprised.

I hope you're right, but the bolded is why I am fearful that Republican lawmakers may refuse to go along. They have, at least in the past, been terrified of the power of the NRA for exactly this reason.

That's why I truly believe this is a watershed moment in our history. 9/11 changed things forever. I think this tragic event will do the same.

I doubt it. The courts have made it very clear that the basic right to own a firearm -- including and maybe especially firearms like semiautomatic pistols -- isn't going anywhere.Moments like this are exactly why written constitutions are a good idea in the first place. They ensure that legislation passed in a hurry in response to an event like this can't go too far.

My comment- "I hope you're right" referred specifically to the two issues of magazine limitations and ending the private sales loophole.

Those are both fine IMO, but they're also fairly small, marginal changes in policy. Neither of them amount to a "this changes everything" moment.

What would represent a significant change to address the problem?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What would represent a significant change to address the problem?

I don't think there's a particularly good "solution" to the problem of people going crazy and deciding that they want to kill a bunch of other people. Nothing spring to mind that I'd be willing to live with. Like tim, I'm fine with extending background checks to private sales; that wouldn't have done anything to prevent the CT shooting, but it's just good public policy in general. I'm also okay with restrictions on magazine size. Again, I seriously doubt that that would mattered last week, but it might be helpful in other situations and doesn't do much damage to the rights of gun-owners. But the basic range of what people are allowed to own probably isn't going to change much, nor should it.I'm not okay to any changes in the way we treat the media -- news, movies, games, etc -- in response to this.

 

[timschochet]

What would represent a significant change to address the problem?

I don't think there's a particularly good "solution" to the problem of people going crazy and deciding that they want to kill a bunch of other people. Nothing spring to mind that I'd be willing to live with. Like tim, I'm fine with extending background checks to private sales; that wouldn't have done anything to prevent the CT shooting, but it's just good public policy in general. I'm also okay with restrictions on magazine size. Again, I seriously doubt that that would mattered last week, but it might be helpful in other situations and doesn't do much damage to the rights of gun-owners. But the basic range of what people are allowed to own probably isn't going to change much, nor should it.I'm not okay to any changes in the way we treat the media -- news, movies, games, etc -- in response to this.

The only thing is that if some gun-owners continue to treat these rather minor changes as destroying the 2nd Amendment and a threat to their freedom, (the way many are in this thread) they're only setting themselves up for much more stringent stuff later on, as the opposition will be able to paint them as crackpot extremists.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

I think he meant you'd be scared if you didn't have the gun.

I meant before AND after. You got the guns because you feel the need to feel safe from whatever, and you keep the guns because that whatever is still out there . Ya you say macho crap like ''i`ll blow anyone away who tries to take my guns'' but thats you speaking with false bravado.Ive seen it a million times...the loudest one is the most scared.

 

[Henry Ford]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

People who feel safe usually don't keep multiple loaded weapons within reach while surfing the net.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

People who feel safe usually don't keep multiple loaded weapons within reach while surfing the net.

Imagine...this angry person owns a gun...no wonder this country is screwed

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What would represent a significant change to address the problem?

I don't think there's a particularly good "solution" to the problem of people going crazy and deciding that they want to kill a bunch of other people. Nothing spring to mind that I'd be willing to live with. Like tim, I'm fine with extending background checks to private sales; that wouldn't have done anything to prevent the CT shooting, but it's just good public policy in general. I'm also okay with restrictions on magazine size. Again, I seriously doubt that that would mattered last week, but it might be helpful in other situations and doesn't do much damage to the rights of gun-owners. But the basic range of what people are allowed to own probably isn't going to change much, nor should it.I'm not okay to any changes in the way we treat the media -- news, movies, games, etc -- in response to this.

The only thing is that if some gun-owners continue to treat these rather minor changes as destroying the 2nd Amendment and a threat to their freedom, (the way many are in this thread) they're only setting themselves up for much more stringent stuff later on, as the opposition will be able to paint them as crackpot extremists.

Maybe. On the other hand, extremist crackpots like Otis encourage many gun-owners to dig in, because they rightly believe that no matter what concessions they make now, the goalposts are going to get moved again in the future. So this sort of thing works both ways.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I feel kind of sorry for a lot of gun owners...living in such fear all the time must be draining .Scared that some bad men are going to try and kill you and your family. Scared that the government is going to take all your rights away and try to kill you. Scared that people might try and take your guns away,so you dare them to..."go ahead and try to take my guns and see what happens'. Always looking over your shoulders,waiting for the inevitable day you will need your gun. Hanging onto the 2nd amendment like a life preserver. Its really sad. It almost seems like you are all waiting for something bad to happen where you would need to use your gun,to justify all your fears.

I love how you draw this conclusion. It's so ####### cute.You really think I'm scared? With a loaded handgun and shotgun within reaching distance as I type this, I feel pretty damn safe.

This is the menatalitly that needs to stop. Feeling "safer" with a gun on you or in your house is twisted and dumb logic. You could play the what if game exercise over and over again and justify having things that would make your own world safer and make you feel "pretty damn safe". However, at some stage when that thing may be causing soceity more harm than good you need to re-evaluate how you look at things. I don't live in a bubble and and think everyone and everything is good, and I know there are bad people out there however, a bandaid approach of civilians owning guns to ward off these bad people is misguided. While we are at it, let's drive tanks around, and every t-shirt I wear should be bullet proof because I feel much safer driving a tank and wearing a bullet proof vest. Also, I think my house should be surround by a barb wire fence just like a jail where it would be much harder for those criminals to get in and harm me. I also want a finger print code system where whoever enters my house must pass that code. I want that because it is my right and I feel safer. I am not about banning all guns. People should own guns but not for the menatility of self defence. People that own guns should use them for hunting. There should be no one that says I have a gun collection because it is my right and I will shoot anyone that poses me danger. I live in Canada and my dad is a hunter and owns 3 guns all for the purpose of hunting. They were not for self defence nor did he keep them in his truck or under his pillow ready to ward off the bad people. The view point of many gun owners in the States needs to change. Owning multiple guns and saying they are for self defence and you will go Rambo on those that will mess with you is a messed up way of thinking. I do have faith though that hopefully over time that view point in the States can change. There were plenty of people who would have never wanted blacks to have rights. They would have argued up and down that it is law and they felt much safer if blacks did not have rights. Heck I am sure others would have claimed that if you give blacks rights and tell me I have to treat them equally well then we are a communist country because you are telling me how to live.It is engraved in far too many people in the states that guns are good and safe and your right and it will protect you and on and on. I don't believe that is a correct way of seeing things and slowly over the course of time I hope that changes for many. Americans should have the right to own certain types of guns. They should even have the right to own more then one gun. However rules need to be much more strict and as a society the reason for owning guns for many needs to start changing. I don't have all the answers and I don't know where is a good place to start. But I think talking about it and trying to deal with it is much better then remaining idle about the situation.But hey, if many of you want to say it is my right to own a gun and screw all of you that tell me otherwise then it may just take longer to get the message home that guns are not good and are dangerous and something does have to change. I think sweeping things under the rug and saying massacres rarely occur so let's not change is wrong. I hope those that are more neutral and informed about the real issue that guns are a gigantic problem will start to find ways to make laws occur not later, but yesterday.I wish you all well.

 

[Otis]

You guys all shoot each other yet?

 

[Otis]

What would represent a significant change to address the problem?

I don't think there's a particularly good "solution" to the problem of people going crazy and deciding that they want to kill a bunch of other people. Nothing spring to mind that I'd be willing to live with. Like tim, I'm fine with extending background checks to private sales; that wouldn't have done anything to prevent the CT shooting, but it's just good public policy in general. I'm also okay with restrictions on magazine size. Again, I seriously doubt that that would mattered last week, but it might be helpful in other situations and doesn't do much damage to the rights of gun-owners. But the basic range of what people are allowed to own probably isn't going to change much, nor should it.

I'm not okay to any changes in the way we treat the media -- news, movies, games, etc -- in response to this.

The only thing is that if some gun-owners continue to treat these rather minor changes as destroying the 2nd Amendment and a threat to their freedom, (the way many are in this thread) they're only setting themselves up for much more stringent stuff later on, as the opposition will be able to paint them as crackpot extremists.

Maybe. On the other hand, extremist crackpots like Otis encourage many gun-owners to dig in, because they rightly believe that no matter what concessions they make now, the goalposts are going to get moved again in the future. So this sort of thing works both ways.

I'm a non liberal who thinks assault weapons in the hands of civilians is stupid, and who thinks the handgun ban in the UK is working, and I'm an "extremist crackpot."

I'm just a dad who wants my kids to be safe. You're all way too paranoid about the motives of people like me.

 

[Otis]

I don't think there's a particularly good "solution" to the problem of people going crazy and deciding that they want to kill a bunch of other people.

Good point.Fellas, let's pack this up. Gonna be too hard to fix it. Who wants a beer?