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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (3 Viewers)

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You know what is nonsense?   Only tangibly related to this thread, but the idea that there is 50 Terrabytes of "top secret" documents exist to steal to begin with.  The idea that anything from 20 years ago other than maybe weapon designs can still be relevant to national security.  I'm not talking about how these "secrets" are secured or handled, but that they are a kept secret at all in a nation that is supposed to be govern by the informed consent of its people.

:2cents:

 
You know what is nonsense?   Only tangibly related to this thread, but the idea that there is 50 Terrabytes of "top secret" documents exist to steal to begin with.  The idea that anything from 20 years ago other than maybe weapon designs can still be relevant to national security.  I'm not talking about how these "secrets" are secured or handled, but that they are a kept secret at all in a nation that is supposed to be govern by the informed consent of its people.

:2cents:
It was really only about 5GB of TS documents, but when you add it all of Tim's commentary, drafts, and rankings of the secrets it bumps it up.  

 
It was really only about 5GB of TS documents, but when you add it all of Tim's commentary, drafts, and rankings of the secrets it bumps it up.  
The security experts which take this seriously do say that most things are inappropriately classified for reasons such as covering up embarrassing stuff.

(Sorry Tim) 

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
I'm not so sure.   For some reason lots of people seem to understand that -

  • just because you initiate something that no one disputes not previously done by anyone
  • and that activity contributes to results which no one disputes
  • but somehow acknowledging these undisputed facts is inappropriate 
It is true with the AIDS program,  It is true with Hillary baiting Trump into falling apart.  It is true for Hillary running a campaign that keeps guys like you and your constant charges against her so far irrelevant to the ultimate goal of the campaign. It is true for dismissing almost any positive remark in Hillary's favor as delusional.  This need for some to rationalize away seems pretty common.

Maybe the same results could have been achieved without this initiative.  Maybe another charity would have achieved the same using method that seem more "charity like" to you.  Maybe another charity would have done a lot better.  Or maybe with more respectable partners and donors.  Maybe the good work was all a happy coincident as the foundation was doing its real sinister activities.  None of the matters to answering the question of whether or not an honest, informed person can simply acknowledge  the results claimed when there is clear, simple, not disputed evidence.

Crediting W for addressing AIDS in poor countries like no president before him or after saving millions doesn't suddenly make invading Iraq a good move. Or, moving heaven and earth in the Spring for Terry Shiavo while "crediting" "Brownie" for doing a good job in the fall somehow reconcilable.  But if muddying the waters with these and other claims to make the point that W doesn't get credit for his positive contributions simply means one doesn't have a point.   An effective means to "preach to the choir" - sure, but other than that these is no point!
Ok maybe we're event talking past each other now. I think we're spending too much time on Tommy's original claim. I think you see my point now, I certainly see yours. If you read my post I certainly tried to meet you in the middle. We will just disagree then.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
That's not true, he can campaign so long as he's not appearing in an official capacity.  The act is intended to be permissive, not restrictive. There's not nearly enough context here to determine whether the act is applicable here.  Do better.

For those of you who think it's harmless when you post this context-free wikileaks crap along with whatever poorly researched narrative the Putin/Assange lackeys are pushing that day, I give you the online experience of Jessica Valenti, flagged as a "cooperative columnist" or something in one of those context-free wikileaks emails.  And you can be sure there's lots more like that. That's the culture your irresponsible posts are feeding.  Congratulations :thumbup:

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
It is true with the AIDS program,  It is true with Hillary baiting Trump into falling apart.  It is true for Hillary running a campaign that keeps guys like you and your constant charges against her so far irrelevant to the ultimate goal of the campaign.
Not sure why people have to do this. Can't discuss issues and candidates without getting personal.

Ok then:
 

From: Ira Magaziner To: Amitabh Desai Cc: Bruce Lindsey; John Podesta (john.podesta@gmail.com) <john.podesta@gmail.com> Sent: Thu Dec 08 03:35:29 2011

Subject: FW: Domestic AIDS Memo Ami:

This note and the attached memo are in response to your inquiry as to whether CHAI has any thoughts on how to proceed on the comments President Clinton made on lowering domestic AIDS drugs prices at the World AIDS day event.

Attached is a detailed memo with recommendations on how CHAI and President Clinton could be helpful in the domestic fight against AIDS. We have been working on this memo since the last CHAI board meeting when this issue first came up and had planned to send it to President Clinton and the CHAI board in December for further discussion.

We were taken by surprise by President Clinton’s comments on world AIDS day and wish that someone had consulted with us before he made these comments. As you will see when you read this memo, we think that publicly pressuring the US and European AIDS drug companies to lower prices and bringing pressure to allow generic AIDS drugs into the United States will have limited if any success and could seriously jeopardize our negotiations to continually lower prices in poor countries. We also believe that there are other more impactful ways to address the US AIDS crisis today.

... If we do try to do something in this area, we suggest that we approach the innovator companies that can currently sell products in the US with the idea of making donations to help clear the ADAP lists. For a variety of reasons, the companies will likely favor a donation approach rather than one that erodes prices across the board. I would guess that they would also likely favor a solution that involved their drugs rather than an approach that allowed generic drugs from India to flood the US market at low prices or one that set a precedent of waiving patent laws on drugs. This will be complicated to work out, but it might be possible. We would have to initiate discussions with multiple state health officials as well as HHS in addition to talking with the drug companies. If President Clinton wishes for us to be proactive, we suggest that we try a cooperative approach first. We can go to war with the US drug companies if President Clinton would like to do so, but we would not suggest it.

...And of course if we do this, we need to find a way to get it funded. I do not know if President Clinton has any thoughts on funding for a domestic AIDS project. Even a negotiation on how to clear the ADAP lists by getting drug companies and state officials and the federal government to work together on a deal would take a significant amount of time and resources to accomplish. We can undertake it, but unless we can get the work funded or the board gives us leave to do it as an unfunded project, we could not move forward.

...

From: Amitabh Desai Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:11 AM To: Ira Magaziner Cc: Bruce Lindsey; john.podesta@gmail.com

Subject: Re: Domestic AIDS Memo

Thanks Ira, we'll pass this on to the President. Of the pricing agreements that CHAI has negotiated, what proportion reflect agreements with big pharma companies in the US/Europe vs. the international generic companies?


- I'm guessing you know who Ira Magaziner is. If you don't you don't really know anything about the Foundation.

- This is what the Foundation actually does. Here it is negotiating what is essentially a Pharma consortium's pricing arrangement. Again you want to call this 'saving lives' go right ahead.

- IMO this also reflects that Clinton's association with Chai conflicts with him advocating for cheaper drugs in the USA.

 
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That's not true, he can campaign so long as he's not appearing in an official capacity.  The act is intended to be permissive, not restrictive. There's not nearly enough context here to determine whether the act is applicable here.  Do better.

For those of you who think it's harmless when you post this context-free wikileaks crap along with whatever poorly researched narrative the Putin/Assange lackeys are pushing that day, I give you the online experience of Jessica Valenti, flagged as a "cooperative columnist" or something in one of those context-free wikileaks emails.  And you can be sure there's lots more like that. That's the culture your irresponsible posts are feeding.  Congratulations :thumbup:
Yeah I'm glad to discuss this here or in the DNC Leaks thread, which is where I've largely discussed it along with the Russian connections. But if you wish to discuss it here I'm glad to.

 
That's not true, he can campaign so long as he's not appearing in an official capacity.  The act is intended to be permissive, not restrictive. There's not nearly enough context here to determine whether the act is applicable here. 
A cabinet member going on tv to attack a primary opponent isn't acting politically?

I guess this came up with the past use of the presidential plane to do campaigning, which I really don't have a problem with, but if the cabinet member acting politically in his capacity as Labor secretary isn't a violation of the Hatch Act what would be? You had good info on the issue of Super-PAC coordination (Sunlight Foundation, which I support), so what is actual violation of the Hatch Act then?

 
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Yeah I'm glad to discuss this here or in the DNC Leaks thread, which is where I've largely discussed it along with the Russian connections. But if you wish to discuss it here I'm glad to.
Sure.

Why are you letting yourself be manipulated like this, and by extension feeding false narratives and putting people like Valenti in such a terrible position?  Even if we reject the US intelligence confirming the hacks are the Russians, at the very least we know that they're coming from someone who is: (1) breaking the law; (2) did so selectively, targeting one political party/candidate and leaking information with highlighted text and without context; and (3) is doing so in an attempt to influence a US election.

If the stuff is so juicy that you just can't resist lending a hand to a fugitive accused rapist and his "mystery" backers" in their efforts to undermine US security by getting a supremely stupid and unqualified man elected president, or at least fomenting American outrage at/distrust of their government so be it.  But why not at least check their chosen narrative to see if it holds water before passing it along?

 
For those of you who think it's harmless when you post this context-free wikileaks crap along with whatever poorly researched narrative the Putin/Assange lackeys are pushing that day, I give you the online experience of Jessica Valenti, flagged as a "cooperative columnist" or something in one of those context-free wikileaks emails.
Can you provide more context here? How did Valenti come up in WL? What's the real context of what she was doing?

Personally I've left these alone. I think the most notable one was Glenn Thrush calling himself a 'hack' in emailing Podesta for permission to edit certain pieces. That this has been 'a thing' in DC/NYC/Beltway reporting circles has been more of a revelation than anything.

On your broader point yeah - there are a few main issues I see:

  • Russian involvement. IMO this basically at factual level now, this is happening.
  • Invasion of personal communications. What bothers me is that if people believe this is legitimate then who is not subject to this? Reporters, lawyers, doctors, insurers, campaign officials, party officials... Otoh these are all subject to discovery in litigation anyway. All these kinds of things would have to come out if they were sued. However that is in litigation. In a public context, these are not "public" actors acting in a "public" or official way.
  • In a way this is actually harmful to what I believe in. The goal is to make public acts public. Not to corode or water down that concept so that it becomes antithetical to real democracy.
  • the fact that these fools do this in largely very hackable systems like gmail i pretty aggravating. It's unbelievable how reckless this is when you see how they were hacked.
  • The fact that there are public issues and public actors involved is counter-vailing. Compare the Pentagon Paper for instance. Illegally stolen documents, true, but published by the NYT.
I'm open to arguments but in the meantime I'm for looking at these communications responsibly, ie focusing on public issues and public actors acting in official capacities.

 
Sure.

Why are you letting yourself be manipulated like this, and by extension feeding false narratives and putting people like Valenti in such a terrible position?  Even if we reject the US intelligence confirming the hacks are the Russians, at the very least we know that they're coming from someone who is: (1) breaking the law; (2) did so selectively, targeting one political party/candidate and leaking information with highlighted text and without context; and (3) is doing so in an attempt to influence a US election.

If the stuff is so juicy that you just can't resist lending a hand to a fugitive accused rapist and his "mystery" backers" in their efforts to undermine US security by getting a supremely stupid and unqualified man elected president, or at least fomenting American outrage at/distrust of their government so be it.  But why not at least check their chosen narrative to see if it holds water before passing it along?
Yep, I agree on 1, I agree on 2, and I agree on 3.

I think I've been pretty good on what I have posted from WL. The CF/CHAI discussion with BFS is ongoing. There is a lot of context there. I have no idea what anyone thinks is lacking there. The Hillary speeches are pretty point blank what they are. Let me know if there's anything else I should address.

I posted some more thoughts above on Valenti and the issue generally.

 
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A cabinet member going on tv to attack a primary opponent isn't acting politically?

I guess this came up with the past use of the presidential plane to do campaigning, which I really don't have a problem with, but if the cabinet member acting politically in his capacity as Labor secretary isn't a violation of the Hatch Act what would be? You had good info on the issue of Super-PAC coordination (Sunlight Foundation, which I support), so what is actual violation of the Hatch Act then?
The law doesn't say they can't act politically.  It says they can't act politically when serving in their official capacity.  Like for example when giving an interview at their offices with a big "Department of _____" seal behind them.  That's what Castro was doing when he got dinged for this.

There's a lot of nuance here, the law is not my specialty, and I don't feel like breaking it down clause by clause like I did with 18 USC 793(f), since I spent hours doing that and nobody listened to me anyway. Plus I have no idea what Perez was doing on Telemundo. I suppose it's possible that he did violate the Hatch Act, although based on my limited understanding of the law and the facts it seems kind of unlikely. But my point not that he's 100% guilty or 100% innocent of a violation. My point is that you (and whoever gave you that info) assumed he was 100% guilty and passed along that information without actually bothering to read and apply the law. 

For the most part Wikileaks stuff hasn't alleged violations of law, but it's still irresponsible to lift text without context or understanding to suggest wrongdoing.  Like they've been doing with their nonsense about journalists corresponding with the campaign, which they portray as a conspiracy of media and political elites but is actually just "journalism." What they're doing is bad for the country, and we are helping them do it.

 
BTW this is my favorite leak.  Even better than the risotto tips!

Game-changer
I think in Hillary's defense a lot of if not nearly all has been this kind of workaday stuff showing how government really works. Turns out Snidely Whiplash is not actually concocting Big Deception in the shadows but instead trying to highlight text in policy talking point prep sessions.

 
The law doesn't say they can't act politically.  It says they can't act politically when serving in their official capacity.  Like for example when giving an interview at their offices with a big "Department of _____" seal behind them.  That's what Castro was doing when he got dinged for this.

There's a lot of nuance here, the law is not my specialty, and I don't feel like breaking it down clause by clause like I did with 18 USC 793(f), since I spent hours doing that and nobody listened to me anyway. Plus I have no idea what Perez was doing on Telemundo. I suppose it's possible that he did violate the Hatch Act, although based on my limited understanding of the law and the facts it seems kind of unlikely. But my point not that he's 100% guilty or 100% innocent of a violation. My point is that you (and whoever gave you that info) assumed he was 100% guilty and passed along that information without actually bothering to read and apply the law. 

For the most part Wikileaks stuff hasn't alleged violations of law, but it's still irresponsible to lift text without context or understanding to suggest wrongdoing.  Like they've been doing with their nonsense about journalists corresponding with the campaign, which they portray as a conspiracy of media and political elites but is actually just "journalism." What they're doing is bad for the country, and we are helping them do it.
As for the Hatch Act info, thanks. Obviously I'm guessing Perez going on TM is no secret, but his motive and purpose in doing so is pretty obvious in that email. I don't know if it's really illegal you're right, I thought any coordination between campaigns and superpacs was illegal too, turns out some instances are not. However I'd like to think you agree with me that at least cabinet members should not be acting politically like this, especially against other members of the same party.

I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the world of journalism. I think I praised Jake Tapper here but I haven't brought up the other journalism stuff. I agree with you on a lot of those aspects. I'm ok when reporters ask for clarification on points and quotes. I'm not ok with it when reporters forward whole articles for approval or when they are used as simple proxies and surrogates for officials and politicians. But like I said except for Tapper who I've praised I haven't touched on that and needless to say the 'media rigged' stuff to me is bunk, so again no I have not touched on that.

As for Valenti, in case anyone hasn't noticed twitter and comments sections in newspapers can be vile places. I'm happily not on twitter or FB.

 
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Yeah that's sad and ridiculous. I guess some or a lot of this is people do not recognize what reporters do.

I'm also ok with the attending dinners hosted by politicos. It's a two way street and the other chumminess that goes along with the job.

In terms of discussions of this thread though and elsewhere like it, it would be nice if people accepted that when they hear 'unnamed sources' they accept this is how this stuff comes out. Personal relationships between reporters and officials. You give, you get. And yet when people hear negative information coming from 'well placed anonymous' sources, they say it can't be trusted. Can't have it both ways.

 
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As for the Hatch Act info, thanks. Obviously I'm guessing Perez going on TM is no secret, but his motive and purpose in doing so is pretty obvious in taht email. I don't know if it's really illegal you're right, I thought any coordination between campaigns and superpacs was illegal too, turns out some instances are not. However I'd like to think you agree with me that at least cabinet members should not be acting politically like this, especially against other members of the same party.

I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the world of journalism. I think I praised Jake Tapper here but I haven't brought up the other journalism stuff. I agree with you on a lot of those aspects. I'm ok when reporters ask for clarification on points and quotes. I'm not ok with it when reporters forward whole articles for approval or when they are used as simple proxies and surrogates for officials and politicians. But like I said except for Tapper who I've praised I haven't touched on that and needless to say the 'media rigged' stuff to me is bunk, so again no I have not touched on that.

As for Valenti, in case anyone hasn't noticed twitter and comments sections in newspapers can be vile places. I'm happily not on twitter or FB.
Doesn't bother me at all. We should all be part of the political process. I understand the idea of the Act, you don't want to give the incumbent government-aided advantages by allowing for campaigning during performance of official duties, but if they're off the clock they have every right to participate. And Sanders isn't really a member of the Democratic party, not that it would change my opinion.

 
Doesn't bother me at all. We should all be part of the political process. I understand the idea of the Act, you don't want to give the incumbent government-aided advantages by allowing for campaigning during performance of official duties, but if they're off the clock they have every right to participate. And Sanders isn't really a member of the Democratic party, not that it would change my opinion.
I'll always cop to being overly idealistic.

 
Yeah that's sad and ridiculous. I guess some or a lot of this is people do not recognize what reporters do.

I'm also ok with the attending dinners hosted by politicos. It's a two way street and the other chumminess that goes along with the job.

In terms of discussions of this thread though and elsewhere like it, it would be nice if people accepted that when they hear 'unnamed sources' they accept this is how this stuff comes out. Personal relationships between reporters and officials. You give, you get. And yet when people hear negative information coming from 'well placed anonymous' sources, they say it can't be trusted. Can't have it both ways.
I take all information, positive or negative, from anonymous sources with a grain of salt.

 
I take all information, positive or negative, from anonymous sources with a grain of salt.
That's fine. This can also be the situation (seen in WL) where officials plant information with reporters. That can be the case too. But that just means it's information or views that officials want out in the public without putting their name on it. Doesn't mean the information is false. But reporters only get there by gaining the trust of their sources.

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
You know absolutely nothing about the rules of handling classified information but you're 100% convinced you know everything.  And you want to educate people to allow them to vote.   :lmao:
Similar to this clown not understanding how anyone could sift through "millions and millions of data"

 
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/10/24/why_the_wikileaks_attack_fizzled_132139.html

“Wednesday@HillaryClinton is done.  - #Wikileaks.”, tweeted Roger Stone, the longtime Donald Trump adviser and Republican operative, on Oct. 2. He was incorrect on two counts. The splashy release of Clinton campaign Chairman John Podesta’s emails from WikiLeaks came on the following Friday. And Hillary Clinton is not done.

A little more than two weeks have passed since the stolen messages were turned into a searchable online database. Since then, Clinton’s lead in the RealClearPolitics poll average has widened slightly.

Why is that? The emails show the Clinton campaign team to be obsessively calculating political operatives. Some are privately rude to the populists on their left flank, whom they need on Election Day. The revealed transcripts of Clinton’s private speeches suggest she may hold some disingenuous positions in public. That’s pretty bad, right?

Certainly, Julian Assange thought so. He leaked the trove minutes after Donald Trump’s behind-the-scenes “Access Hollywood” recording surfaced, which Podesta believes was an attempt to turn media attention away from Trump’s boasts about groping women. But, Podesta observed, “he didn’t succeed in doing that.”

In the alternative universe where Clinton runs against a generic Republican politician, the media might have turned the emails into a sensationalized feeding frenzy. A taste of what might have been can be found in this report from The Hill about a May 21, 2015 exchange: “Top Clinton aide in leaked email: 'Can we survive not answering questions' from press?” As you learn from a close reading of the story, the headline is misleading.

The aide proposed to Podesta “not answering questions from press at message events” – events designed to drive a campaign theme. The proposal wasn’t a total media blackout. Moreover, Podesta’s response was negative: “If she thinks we can get to Labor Day without taking press questions, I think that’s suicidal.“ In fact, Clinton participated in a few press conferences that summer. But you don’t learn that from The Hill, which instead offered,  “At one point, Clinton went 275 days without holding a formal press conference until breaking the drought in September.” That’s true … in 2016. It was not true in the summer of 2015 when the email exchange took place.

But we don’t live in the alternative universe. We live in the universe where WikiLeaks tried to take down a candidate with embarrassing private emails and failed.

Clinton didn’t suffer much from contextually challenged coverage like that in The Hill because Trump hogged most of the negative coverage for himself. A firm believer in the “no such thing as bad publicity” school, Trump chose to rail against those accusing him of sexual assault, thereby ensuring tons of stories about Trump.

So Clinton dodged a bullet. And, to paraphrase “The Wire,” if you come at the queen, you best not miss.

In failing to turn unvarnished internal political machinations into a paralyzing scandal, WikiLeaks may have inadvertently raised the bar on what constitutes a successful act of political cyberwar. If all an email hack accomplishes is the temporary embarrassment of some political aides and supersized serving of gossip for Washington cocktail parties, then the hack is hardly potent ammo.

The truth is, if we saw the raw email from the Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush or Bernie Sanders campaigns we would surely see similar political calculations over tricky issues, deliberations how to quash negative media narratives and intemperate comments made about adversaries or even allies. (Whereas the Trump campaign emails are probably in their own category of insanity.) What we see in the Podesta emails is the grist of political life. It’s doesn’t make our politicians fundamentally dishonest or our democracy a sham.

After seeing how the Clinton sausage got ground, perhaps the voting public will now be more likely to view the contents of stolen emails through the prism of political reality. Without a truly scandalous bombshell, each subsequent cyberattack on Clinton’s team, or that of another politician, may be greeted with bigger and bigger shrugs.

The Russian government, which American intelligence believes stole the emails and fed them to WikiLeaks, doesn’t necessarily expect to elect Trump, but wants to, as The Economist put it, “discredit and erode universal liberal values by nurturing the idea that the West is just as corrupt as Russia.” Vox’s Zack Beauchamp fears that "Russia has weaponized the American press” to achieve that goal: “This is how Russia gets us. Once WikiLeaks publishes a trove of newsworthy emails, the press is stuck in a corner: Doing its job will help a hostile foreign power manipulate the American election and arguably even help weaken faith in the press itself. And that’s why Putin’s plan is so devilish: He’s undermining the credibility of two key American institutions in one go.”

But that is only true if Americans are gullible enough to be led down the path Russia want us to take. The blasé reaction from American voters to the contents of Podesta’s emails is a heartening sign that we will not.

 
But that is only true if Americans are gullible enough to be led down the path Russia want us to take. The blasé reaction from American voters to the contents of Podesta’s emails is a heartening sign that we will not.
First heartening sign about American voters in a while, actually.  And even in this case I wonder if it would have been more successful if everything Clinton did wasn't overshadowed by the Trump campaign becoming a total ####show since he got trounced in the first debate.

 
The Russian government, which American intelligence believes stole the emails and fed them to WikiLeaks, doesn’t necessarily expect to elect Trump, but wants to, as The Economist put it, “discredit and erode universal liberal values by nurturing the idea that the West is just as corrupt as Russia.” Vox’s Zack Beauchamp fears that "Russia has weaponized the American press” to achieve that goal: “This is how Russia gets us. Once WikiLeaks publishes a trove of newsworthy emails, the press is stuck in a corner: Doing its job will help a hostile foreign power manipulate the American election and arguably even help weaken faith in the press itself. And that’s why Putin’s plan is so devilish: He’s undermining the credibility of two key American institutions in one go.”

But that is only true if Americans are gullible enough to be led down the path Russia want us to take.
It would be nice if in the course of this WL discussion that people accept that Mitt Romney was right in stating that Russia is our No. 1 geopolitical foe, or at least admitting that Pres. Obama's snarky response was wrong.

This argument is a big one but if you're going to have it, have it.

And btw his naivete, and Hillary's, is part of the reason this is happening.

 
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It would be nice if in the course of this WL discussion that people accept that Mitt Romney was right in stating that Russia is our No. 1 geopolitical foe, or at least admitting that Pres. Obama's snarky response was wrong.

This argument is a big one but if you're going to have it, have it.

And btw his naivete, and Hillary's, is part of the reason this is happening.
Sure, I think Obama was being snarky there. But I don't think either he or Hillary were naive. They tried to reset, and that was the wise choice to make. I look back on Obama's 8 years in dealing with Russia and I have a hard time trying to figure out what he should have done differently. IMO the flaw in our policy was admitting Russia's neighbors into NATO and selling them missile defense systems- we should have thought more carefully about the long term ramifications of these actions- but they were done mostly during Bill Clinton and Bush's terms. By the time Obama arrived, the damage was done.

 
So you wasted hundreds of pages of the NSA thread just trolling then?  Good admission 
I didn't troll at all. I offered my honest opinion. I didn't believe in the 1984 analogies you and others were making. I still don't. I believed then, and now, that you were making mountains out of molehills.

 
Sure, I think Obama was being snarky there. But I don't think either he or Hillary were naive. They tried to reset, and that was the wise choice to make. I look back on Obama's 8 years in dealing with Russia and I have a hard time trying to figure out what he should have done differently. IMO the flaw in our policy was admitting Russia's neighbors into NATO and selling them missile defense systems- we should have thought more carefully about the long term ramifications of these actions- but they were done mostly during Bill Clinton and Bush's terms. By the time Obama arrived, the damage was done.
Ok now Russia is hacking our government and a major political party, weaponizing our political process and press and even our voters, they have moved into 4 different countries (Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, Syria), and they have put missiles in western Europe, but they're not our no. 1 geopolitical foe. Got it.

2013 Guccifer hacked Blumenthal and put his stuff on Russian servers. Hillary's response when she herself was pinged and hacked (yes she clicked on one of those same phishing links Podesta did, per the FBI)? Tell the IC? No. Tell State? No. She changed her email. She must be on her fifth at least since then, we've already seen HDR22, HDR17, HDR 29, I'm guessing now with WL she is on her fourth at least. I guess she is 'Woke' now. Some still aren't.

 
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First heartening sign about American voters in a while, actually.  And even in this case I wonder if it would have been more successful if everything Clinton did wasn't overshadowed by the Trump campaign becoming a total ####show since he got trounced in the first debate.
There is no question Clinton is sending Trump a thank you note for wanting to take all the news cycles for himself.  I like the point from the article that it's a window into how politics works in this country.  I agree.  Now it's up to the individuals to figure out what that means to them.

 
So you wasted hundreds of pages of the NSA thread just trolling then?  Good admission 
I didn't troll at all. I offered my honest opinion. I didn't believe in the 1984 analogies you and others were making. I still don't. I believed then, and now, that you were making mountains out of molehills.
So you're backing off your assertion that you know handling of classified info or how big data works better than others?  You clearly don't and have proven your willful ignorance over and over

 
I didn't troll at all. I offered my honest opinion. I didn't believe in the 1984 analogies you and others were making. I still don't. I believed then, and now, that you were making mountains out of molehills.
It's one or the other Tim.  You either know more than you let on in that thread (thus the trolling comment) or what you posted in the thread was, in fact, what you know (which is very little).  It can't be both :shrug:  

 
We live in the universe where WikiLeaks tried to take down a candidate with embarrassing private emails
"We live in the universe where NBC and the Washington Post tried to take down a candidate with embarrassing private bus conversations"

 
There is no question Clinton is sending Trump a thank you note for wanting to take all the news cycles for himself.  I like the point from the article that it's a window into how politics works in this country.  I agree.  Now it's up to the individuals to figure out what that means to them.
I don't see where the article does that.  A window provides a full, clear view.  This is a limited view, massaged by someone who wants people to take something away from that, and the article points to that.  It even gives an example of it, form the 2015 stuff about press conferences with the context removed (at this point it's Trump who is refusing to take questions and has been for a while).  What we don't yet know is whether the American people have the patience and perspective to understand that and react accordingly.  It's great that they've mostly shrugged off this nonsense so far, but like I said I think that might be because Trump overshadows everything, so the jury is still out.

 
There is no question Clinton is sending Trump a thank you note for wanting to take all the news cycles for himself.  I like the point from the article that it's a window into how politics works in this country.  I agree.  Now it's up to the individuals to figure out what that means to them.
I don't see where the article does that.  A window provides a full, clear view.  This is a limited view, massaged by someone who wants people to take something away from that, and the article points to that.  It even gives an example of it, form the 2015 stuff about press conferences with the context removed (at this point it's Trump who is refusing to take questions and has been for a while).  What we don't yet know is whether the American people have the patience and perspective to understand that and react accordingly.  It's great that they've mostly shrugged off this nonsense so far, but like I said I think that might be because Trump overshadows everything, so the jury is still out.
Is it?  It seems crystal clear to me "....but Trump....." is going to be the :hophead:  retort to any and everything for the foreseeable future.  

 
Is it?  It seems crystal clear to me "....but Trump....." is going to be the :hophead:  retort to any and everything for the foreseeable future.  
The jury is still out on whether Americans would have overreacted to the Wikileaks stuff and allowed themselves to get played by Assange and Putin were it not for Trump.  You are correct though, "but Trump" is definitely gonna be the retort for at least two years.  Then the GOP will pick up a bunch of Senate and House seats in 2018 and everyone will overreact to that and say the party made an amazing recovery and put Trump behind them when it's actually just predictable dynamics of the 2018 races. I wish there was a way to bet on these kind of things.

 
The jury is still out on whether Americans would have overreacted to the Wikileaks stuff and allowed themselves to get played by Assange and Putin were it not for Trump.  You are correct though, "but Trump" is definitely gonna be the retort for at least two years.  Then the GOP will pick up a bunch of Senate and House seats in 2018 and everyone will overreact to that and say the party made an amazing recovery and put Trump behind them when it's actually just predictable dynamics of the 2018 races. I wish there was a way to bet on these kind of things.
I think an additional not contradictory lesson people should consider is what would Putin and his FSB/GRU (now reformed as a modern KGB, yeah that happened) have done if Trump would not have been the nominee?

They would have these emails all the same they would just not be releasing them to WL, possibly. This information can be used in a variety of ways. It's just a question of what is most valuable to them.

ETA - Our data store has been getting raided since at least 2013, people arguing this point should deal with that absolute, manifest policy failure.

 
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It's one or the other Tim.  You either know more than you let on in that thread (thus the trolling comment) or what you posted in the thread was, in fact, what you know (which is very little).  It can't be both :shrug:  
Ooh I'm obviously trapped here by you and Slapdash. Whatever shall I do? 

I reject the entire premise. How's that? 

 
It's one or the other Tim.  You either know more than you let on in that thread (thus the trolling comment) or what you posted in the thread was, in fact, what you know (which is very little).  It can't be both :shrug:  
Ooh I'm obviously trapped here by you and Slapdash. Whatever shall I do? 

I reject the entire premise. How's that? 
About the response that I expected from a sad internet troll

 
It's one or the other Tim.  You either know more than you let on in that thread (thus the trolling comment) or what you posted in the thread was, in fact, what you know (which is very little).  It can't be both :shrug:  
Ooh I'm obviously trapped here by you and Slapdash. Whatever shall I do? 

I reject the entire premise. How's that? 
You trapped yourself Tim :lol:   I had nothing to do with it.  I don't know what premise you are rejecting....again, not established by me, rather yourself.

 
You trapped yourself Tim :lol:   I had nothing to do with it.  I don't know what premise you are rejecting....again, not established by me, rather yourself.
I'm rejecting the idea that unless I know the details of the technology behind what the NSA is doing, or in the case of Hillary's emails, the details about classified materials, that somehow I know "less" on these subjects than those who disagree with me, especially Slapdash. This is the typical argument of the technocrat and it's crap. I KNOW I Know more than Slapdash because all of his conclusions are based on his paranoid belief that this nation is ruled by a one party plutocracy. I don't need to know technical details to know that's wrong.

 
BTW this is my favorite leak.  Even better than the risotto tips!

Game-changer
What is stopping them from fabricating stuff or changing the wording?

Heck don't know if any you guys have been watching Mr. Robot but somehow on that show they show clips of Obama and other famous people saying stuff that only pertains to the show and it seems very real. I'm still trying to figure out how they did it. 

Interesting times we live in really. 

 
What is stopping them from fabricating stuff or changing the wording?

Heck don't know if any you guys have been watching Mr. Robot but somehow on that show they show clips of Obama and other famous people saying stuff that only pertains to the show and it seems very real. I'm still trying to figure out how they did it. 

Interesting times we live in really. 
I think I've seen two that were fabricated or altered otherwise it's been clean. What you have to watch out for are the WL "analysis" pieces which are dressed up like news articles but they are deceptive and also partisan blogs like BB which sort of do the same thing.

There's nothing weird, altered or wrong in that particular email, it's BB's take on it which is false. I think Tobias has a good point there.

 
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