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***Official***President Donald Trump (1 Viewer)

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jon_mx said:
No.  but when someone says that Trump voters rejected truth WTF does that mean when the only other legitimate choice was Hillary,  a pathological liar herself.  
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All politicians lie, including Hillary Clinton. But IIRC, the lie detector was off the charts with the Donald.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
The total lack of transparency about Trump's finances and the pass he got on them is astounding and inexcusable.  He never released any meaningful financial records, had his non-profit shut down becausd it wasn't acting like a non-profit, paid out a $25MM settlement in a fraud case.  In a previous cycle, any of those would have been disqualifying.  And now it's clear there's going to be no separation between the Trump family business interests and the White House.  

Do people who voted for Trump think it's a good thing?  Did they expect this?  
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No political norms apply to Trump.  That's become completely self-evident.  He's "not a politician" so the very people who screamed "pay-to-play" about the Clinton foundation don't care about it now.  The fact that Trump is a particularly bald-faced liar is held up as an example of his authenticity (on the theory, I guess, that although he lies more often than other politicians, he's worse at it).  It seems to me that the average Trump voter likes Trump for one reason.  He "says what he thinks" and isn't politically correct.  And if that holds true, it seems that very little is going to change.  Those of us who find him awful will have lots of ammunition.  Those who like him are unlikely to be persuaded by anything he does. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
No political norms apply to Trump.  That's become completely self-evident.  He's "not a politician" so the very people who screamed "pay-to-play" about the Clinton foundation don't care about it now.  The fact that Trump is a particularly bald-faced liar is held up as an example of his authenticity (on the theory, I guess, that although he lies more often than other politicians, he's worse at it).  It seems to me that the average Trump voter likes Trump for one reason.  He "says what he thinks" and isn't politically correct.  And if that holds true, it seems that very little is going to change.  Those of us who find him awful will have lots of ammunition.  Those who like him are unlikely to be persuaded by anything he does. 
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These are people who thought it wise to pull a lever for Donald Trump; adjust expectations accordingly.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
The total lack of transparency about Trump's finances and the pass he got on them is astounding and inexcusable.  He never released any meaningful financial records, had his non-profit shut down becausd it wasn't acting like a non-profit, paid out a $25MM settlement in a fraud case.  In a previous cycle, any of those would have been disqualifying.  And now it's clear there's going to be no separation between the Trump family business interests and the White House.  

Do people who voted for Trump think it's a good thing?  Did they expect this?  
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I imagine it's different for the different kind of Trump supporters. 

There are true believers who seem to take Trump at his word. 

The burn it to the ground supporters who I don't think care and just want the system to fall so it can be rebuilt.

I still think most of the people who voted for him are just rank and file Republicans in the Romney/Ryan mode, who are quietly horrified by all of this but hope they can contain the damage while advancing some actual conservative priorities. 

 
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ZenMaster said:
I don't think Trump supporters care. He can do no wrong and anyone who suggests otherwise is a libtard, cuck, or is whining that his/her candidate lost. 

I agree that this should be a huge concern. I'll be impressed if any of the Trump supporters here respond with anything of substance. I can hope, though. It would be nice to have some sort of discussion about TrumpConcerns without devolving into 'but Hillary.......'. 
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Exactly. I've found myself giving up trying to speak with facts and logic to Trump supporters and instead, try to assimilate their approach by semi trolling or responding in a way that the Donald communicates to them. Such as ...

Short, incoherent sentences that stay under the Twitter character limit, end with a !

For example:

"Donald Trump refuses to release returns putting are safety of this great country in jeoparoody. Sad!"

Another response is this:

:lmao:

Diversion also works well too.

 
beavers said:
Exactly. I've found myself giving up trying to speak with facts and logic to Trump supporters and instead, try to assimilate their approach by semi trolling or responding in a way that the Donald communicates to them. Such as ...

Short, incoherent sentences that stay under the Twitter character limit, end with a !

For example:

"Donald Trump refuses to release returns putting are safety of this great country in jeoparoody. Sad!"

Another response is this:

:lmao:

Diversion also works well too.
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What are you trying to accomplish by doing this?

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
No political norms apply to Trump.  That's become completely self-evident.  He's "not a politician" so the very people who screamed "pay-to-play" about the Clinton foundation don't care about it now.  The fact that Trump is a particularly bald-faced liar is held up as an example of his authenticity (on the theory, I guess, that although he lies more often than other politicians, he's worse at it).  It seems to me that the average Trump voter likes Trump for one reason.  He "says what he thinks" and isn't politically correct.  And if that holds true, it seems that very little is going to change.  Those of us who find him awful will have lots of ammunition.  Those who like him are unlikely to be persuaded by anything he does. 
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Well, that's a gentler way of saying that Trump voters are largely stupid and we've seen fierce rejection of that suggestion. But questions like this are how they can seriously dispel the notion by discussing what I see as a fundamental problem that no other president has been allowed to skate on.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
What are you trying to accomplish by doing this?
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I'm trying to speak to them in a way they understand. I've tried for at least a year, to present facts and logical arguments. Nothing works. 

Have you had any success getting a Trumpette to accept a fact, that DJT stated otherwise ? 

 
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beavers said:
I'm trying to speak to them in a way they understand. I've tried for at least a year, to present facts and logical arguments. Nothing works. 
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I agree that it can be frustrating to try to have a real discussion about this stuff with certain posters.  But I don't want everybody to just post garbage.  It just makes things worse for everyone.  You're capable of good posts, my hope is that you'll continue to try to make good points.

 
roadkill1292 said:
Well, that's a gentler way of saying that Trump voters are largely stupid and we've seen fierce rejection of that suggestion. But questions like this are how they can seriously dispel the notion by discussing what I see as a fundamental problem that no other president has been allowed to skate on.
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I just don't think they care.  Most votes are symbolic acts.  They aren't based on a considered rational analysis of policies or even a well-developed philosophy of the proper role and bounds of government.  They're based on how the votes make us feel about ourselves and our nation.  Obama came at a time when the country was starved for optimism. When it felt good to vote for the "Hope-y change-y" candidate.  For a large minority of the country voting for Trump satisfied a similarly strong primal urge.  An urge to reclaim the feeling of American greatness and status that they associate with Ronald Reagan.  Particularly among white men.  That's the message this board has taught me.  That there's a strangely large group of white dudes in this country who think they're the victims.  To the point that they can think that a guy like Donald Trump "speaks for the little guy."  That's an insane claim, but we see it all the time. 

But hey, they won.  And elections do have consequences.  Because I'm just a guy who snarks on the internet, I don't need to figure out how to win those voters over.  I'll just make #####y comments for the next 4/8 years. 

 
roadkill1292 said:
Well, that's a gentler way of saying that Trump voters are largely stupid and we've seen fierce rejection of that suggestion. But questions like this are how they can seriously dispel the notion by discussing what I see as a fundamental problem that no other president has been allowed to skate on.
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The "problem" is they they don't see that as a problem, but rather a quirk.  They think everyone after Reagan has been some type of either sellout to America or not their fault.  Frankly, nothing will change that position until Trump and the Republicans have to govern and their supporters become disillusioned with how they actually govern.  It's one thing to be in opposition, it's entirely another when you have to "fix" Obamacare, or really explain your tax cuts to the rich, or really explain cutting Medicare.  These are all complex issues without easy soundbite solutions.  Once they become disillusioned with the policy, the low-hanging conflicts fruit will matter.

Like all of American history, the public will be disillusioned with him and the Republican Congress at some point and there will be a wave election.  It's in our national DNA.  We're inherently sceptical of government and power.  

 
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Arsenal of Doom said:
I imagine it's different for the different kind of Trump supporters. 

There are true believers who seem to take Trump at his word. 

The burn it to the ground supporters who I don't think care and just want the system to fall so it can be rebuilt.

I still think most of the people who voted for him are just rank and file Republicans in the Romney/Ryan mode, who are quietly horrified by all of this but hope they can contain the damage whike advancing some actual conservative priorities. 
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Good point about the spectrum of voters.  We've also got intelligent conservatives in the IK mold who aren't having it and want Trump gone the moment he commits an impeachable action, which by all projections say will be the day he takes office. 

There's also some single-issue social conservatives who are voting anti-abortion or pro-death penalty and the business dealings are immaterial.

 
beavers said:
It's sad!
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What's sad is most of your posts are condescending towards people you don't agree with and you make huge generalizations about people. You are freaked out about Hillary losing. Guess what, it will be ok and this country and it's people will be ok. Relax, count your blessings and enjoy Christmas. Oh, have a stiff drink too!

 
beavers said:
I'm trying to speak to them in a way they understand. I've tried for at least a year, to present facts and logical arguments. Nothing works. 

Have you had any success getting a Trumpette to accept a fact, that DJT stated otherwise ? 
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You probably aren't going to change the mind of a true believer, but they also aren't necessarily the ones you are trying to or need to reach.

There's benefit to debating a point logically with someone, even if you are never going to change their mind or they refuse to accept factual evidence. It pushes you to expand your own argument and consider it from different positions. 

I discuss and debate as an exercise for self-growth as much as to influence, change, or reinforce other opinions.

 
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Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I just don't think they care.  Most votes are symbolic acts.  They aren't based on a considered rational analysis of policies or even a well-developed philosophy of the proper role and bounds of government.  They're based on how the votes make us feel about ourselves and our nation.  Obama came at a time when the country was starved for optimism. When it felt good to vote for the "Hope-y change-y" candidate.  For a large minority of the country voting for Trump satisfied a similarly strong primal urge.  An urge to reclaim the feeling of American greatness and status that they associate with Ronald Reagan.  Particularly among white men.  That's the message this board has taught me.  That there's a strangely large group of white dudes in this country who think they're the victims.  To the point that they can think that a guy like Donald Trump "speaks for the little guy."  That's an insane claim, but we see it all the time. 

But hey, they won.  And elections do have consequences.  Because I'm just a guy who snarks on the internet, I don't need to figure out how to win those voters over.  I'll just make #####y comments for the next 4/8 years. 
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There is a sort of calm serenity in knowing that it really isn't my job to try to push the administration in any direction for the next few years.  There's nothing at all I can do on that front, as (best case scenario) Trump gives zero ####s about me or the things I care about.  

So... good luck, everyone.  Try to keep in mind that if it weren't for the ACA I'd be dead (along with a bunch of other people.)  Feel free to use that as impetus to repeal or reconsider your position, whatever your thoughts are on the subject.

 
Henry Ford said:
There is a sort of calm serenity in knowing that it really isn't my job to try to push the administration in any direction for the next few years.  There's nothing at all I can do on that front, as (best case scenario) Trump gives zero ####s about me or the things I care about.  

So... good luck, everyone.  Try to keep in mind that if it weren't for the ACA I'd be dead (along with a bunch of other people.)  Feel free to use that as impetus to repeal or reconsider your position, whatever your thoughts are on the subject.
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I also noticed a fairly surprising amount of support for privatizing social security in the thread about that issue. A few tried to justify it on the grounds of improved returns but mostly the sentiment was "too bad" if you're poor and sick. Is that part of America "winning" again?

I would like you to be not dead, Henry.

 
roadkill1292 said:
I also noticed a fairly surprising amount of support for privatizing social security in the thread about that issue. A few tried to justify it on the grounds of improved returns but mostly the sentiment was "too bad" if you're poor and sick. Is that part of America "winning" again?

I would like you to be not dead, Henry.
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Thanks, man.  I appreciate not being dead, too.  Of course, without the health insurance that I wasn't able to get until the ACA I would be right now, but I understand that people are very upset about the whole thing.

 
Arsenal of Doom said:
You probably aren't going to change the mind of a true believer, but they also aren't necessarily the ones you are trying to or need to reach.

There's benefit to debating a point logically with someone, even if you are never going to change their mind or they refuse to accept factual evidence. It pushes you to expand your own argument and consider it from different positions. 

I discuss and debate as an exercise for self-growth as much as to influence, change, or reinforce other opinions.
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the other thing is that neutral folks might be watching the discussion.  Infantile responses do nothing to persuade.  They just get pissed off at the whole damn thing and say, "eff this.  I'd rather learn about yoga pants."

Personally, I find reasonable, non-condescending, well-thought out posts (from both sides) worth reading and paying attention to.  the snarky, "red team vs blue team" crap - waste of time for everyone. I think I'm going to start putting folks on ignore that post thoughtless replies.

 
Henry Ford said:
There is a sort of calm serenity in knowing that it really isn't my job to try to push the administration in any direction for the next few years.  There's nothing at all I can do on that front, as (best case scenario) Trump gives zero ####s about me or the things I care about.  
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This is a source of friction in my marriage.  My wife notes that I now have a kid and another on the way so that I shouldn't find all this funny.  And I tell her that I've spent enough time on the internet to know that the quality of the argument or the moral soundness of a position literally doesn't matter.  So when Scrappygang is old enough to understand all this, I hope I can convince him.  But otherwise, I'm out.  I lost faith in finding common ground with political adversaries when I found that there were lots of people who disagreed with my out there belief that the United States shouldn't engage in torture.  So I don't consider the election of Trump to be crossing any Rubicon. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
This is a source of friction in my marriage.  My wife notes that I now have a kid and another on the way so that I shouldn't find all this funny.  And I tell her that I've spent enough time on the internet to know that the quality of the argument or the moral soundness of a position literally doesn't matter.  So when Scrappygang is old enough to understand all this, I hope I can convince him.  But otherwise, I'm out.  I lost faith in finding common ground with political adversaries when I found that there were lots of people who disagreed with my out there belief that the United States shouldn't engage in torture.  So I don't consider the election of Trump to be crossing any Rubicon. 
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That took me aback, too. Torture was always what the bad guys did, not us.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
This is a source of friction in my marriage.  My wife notes that I now have a kid and another on the way so that I shouldn't find all this funny.  And I tell her that I've spent enough time on the internet to know that the quality of the argument or the moral soundness of a position literally doesn't matter.  So when Scrappygang is old enough to understand all this, I hope I can convince him.  But otherwise, I'm out.  I lost faith in finding common ground with political adversaries when I found that there were lots of people who disagreed with my out there belief that the United States shouldn't engage in torture.  So I don't consider the election of Trump to be crossing any Rubicon. 
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Yeah, I actually view Trump as a pretty natural progression from George W. Bush.  I was frankly a little shocked at the Obama presidency run, because while I'm not a huge fan of McCain (those days) or Romney, I wouldn't at all be embarrassed by them as President, I just don't agree with their policies.  Which is fine.  But I sort of assumed President Camacho was coming at some point.

 
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Henry Ford said:
There is a sort of calm serenity in knowing that it really isn't my job to try to push the administration in any direction for the next few years.  There's nothing at all I can do on that front, as (best case scenario) Trump gives zero ####s about me or the things I care about.  

So... good luck, everyone.  Try to keep in mind that if it weren't for the ACA I'd be dead (along with a bunch of other people.)  Feel free to use that as impetus to repeal or reconsider your position, whatever your thoughts are on the subject.
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Chalk one up for the ACA.   :thumbup:

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I agree that it can be frustrating to try to have a real discussion about this stuff with certain posters.  But I don't want everybody to just post garbage.  It just makes things worse for everyone.  You're capable of good posts, my hope is that you'll continue to try to make good points.
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I completely understand what you're saying...

But, my question (or assumption) should not to be taken lightly as election loss bitterness. The alt-right movement started from trolling. Milo Yiannopolous for example, is a "journalist" with Breitbart and is also an ultimate troll (who has had his Twitter account permanently revoked). We now have a president-elect who is a troll. The Atlantic, The New Yorker, and BBC recognize and have reported on alt-right trolling, and how it has impacted their movement.

So, why should one try to speak to an individual in a logical, factual manner, when they are so heavily influenced (directly or indirectly) by Internet trolling? By short, non truthful statements? Individuals who completely disregard unbiased facts as fraud.

As a change management professional, my job is to create operating models for improving organizational agility. I help executives speak the language of employees to better communicate with them. How is this different? Why should we continue to present factual data, and take our time in doing so, only to realize it's a hopeless cause because illogical, incomprehensible tweets and soundbites resonate more? 

 
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Mike Kachman said:
I have been reading these boards for months since joining FBG.  I don't post because I don't have the time to post 50 rebuttal posts.  I'm just too busy.  But I did want to make a point.  A large percentage of the anti-Trump posters here imply that anybody who voted for Trump is a low-income/poorly educated/ignorant voter.  Some also imply racist, etc. You are delusional.  I am a physician.  I have many physician friends, friends with multiple degrees, business owners, etc. who voted for Trump.  I live near the research triangle part of NC which is typically more blue than red but was very purple for this election.  My first choice was Cruz but I obviously voted for Trump after Cruz lost.  People who imply Trump voters are all stupid uneducated people are ignorant in their own right.  Be careful, because failure to objectively stand back and assess the true reasons for Trump's win will almost assuredly result in more losses for your candidates because you don't understand the reasons. Clinton was also a deeply flawed candidate.   And Trump didn't win because the voters are all racist.  Many people who voted for Obama voted for Trump. 
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What do you think Clinton voters (or Johnson or Stein voters) got wrong about Trump?  Why should they have voted for Trump?

 
Arsenal of Doom said:
You probably aren't going to change the mind of a true believer, but they also aren't necessarily the ones you are trying to or need to reach.

There's benefit to debating a point logically with someone, even if you are never going to change their mind or they refuse to accept factual evidence. It pushes you to expand your own argument and consider it from different positions. 

I discuss and debate as an exercise for self-growth as much as to influence, change, or reinforce other opinions.
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Very good point. Both ends of the spectrum, you're not changing. It's those in the middle that gives me hope.

 
Phase of the Game said:
What's sad is most of your posts are condescending towards people you don't agree with and you make huge generalizations about people. You are freaked out about Hillary losing. Guess what, it will be ok and this country and it's people will be ok. Relax, count your blessings and enjoy Christmas. Oh, have a stiff drink too!
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What generalizations have I made? I recall recently saying that I can understand how Trump's message appealed to the rust belt, but have had a hard time understanding how others could not see through him.

I disagree.

And, I will. Beginning with Thursday ... celebrating my birthday!

 
Phase of the Game said:
Those are frowned upon now because the thin skinned lefties here whine and report people to the mods about them. Pathetic and sad that a smilie could upset people so much.
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I'm not sure what's going on with people reporting / anything coming of those reports for the laughing head thing.

But 3/4 of a page filled with posts of just those is pretty dumb.

 
beavers said:
What generalizations have I made? I recall recently saying that I can understand how Trump's message appealed to the rust belt, but have had a hard time understanding how others could not see through him.

I disagree.

And, I will. Beginning with Thursday ... celebrating my birthday!
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The generalizations that you and others make here that Trump supporters are dumb, uneducated, homophobes, and racist.

 
Phase of the Game said:
Those are frowned upon now because the thin skinned lefties here whine and report people to the mods about them. Pathetic and sad that a smilie could upset people so much.
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No, they are just pointless and don't further the conversation.  There are a number of people asking legit questions and raising serious concerns and the typical response is either the lmao smiley or reinforcing the fact the Clinton lost (which everyone already has realized and accepted)

 
Dickies said:
No, they are just pointless and don't further the conversation.  There are a number of people asking legit questions and raising serious concerns and the typical response is either the lmao smiley or reinforcing the fact the Clinton lost (which everyone already has realized and accepted)
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And insulting Trump supporters at every turn is furthering the conversation? The Anti-Trump crowd whines about likes and now smilies yet claim Trump supporters are thin skinned. Sorry but that deserves a :lmao:

 
President-elect Donald Trump has continued employing a private security and intelligence team at his victory rallies, and he is expected to keep at least some members of the team after he becomes president, according to people familiar with the plans.  The arrangement represents a major break from tradition. All modern presidents and presidents-elect have entrusted their personal security entirely to the Secret Service, and their event security mostly to local law enforcement, according to presidential security experts and Secret Service sources.   But Trump — who puts a premium on loyalty and has demonstrated great interest in having forceful security at his events — has opted to maintain an aggressive and unprecedented private security force, led by Keith Schiller, a retired New York City cop and Navy veteran who started working for Trump in 1999 as a part-time bodyguard, eventually rising to become his head of security.

 
Phase of the Game said:
What's sad is most of your posts are condescending towards people you don't agree with and you make huge generalizations about people. You are freaked out about Hillary losing. Guess what, it will be ok and this country and it's people will be ok. Relax, count your blessings and enjoy Christmas. Oh, have a stiff drink too!
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She doesn't come across as the happy drunk type so the drink may not help. 

 
Phase of the Game said:
And insulting Trump supporters at every turn is furthering the conversation? The Anti-Trump crowd whines about likes and now smilies yet claim Trump supporters are thin skinned. Sorry but that deserves a :lmao:
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I don't think I've really insulted anyone other than dopes like grandparox and ilikedwight.  I think you mistake seeking answers/explanations as whining.  Last night I asked the Trump supporters a number of questions and only got an answer from adonis, who happens to think very much like I do.  His answer reaffirmed my suspicions, but would like to actually better understand Trump voters.  I will ask again and respectfully request that you refrain from a smiley response:

Let me ask you this.  Trump's campaign slogan is MAGA.  Are we not great right now?  If not, why not, and when was the last time America was great?

I listened to conservative radio for about 20 minutes on the ride home from work today and caller after caller and the host kept talking about how Trump is going to restore the country's values.  What does this mean?
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" Trump is going to restore the country's values.  What does this mean?"

The right has been using this trick for years. They portray themselves as the party of "family values", unlike those heathen democrats that want to destroy Christmas and make everyone gay.

Kind of falls apart now that their leader is an internet troll/thrice married man, but they don't seem to mind as much when it's one of their own.

 
Skoo said:
" Trump is going to restore the country's values.  What does this mean?"

The right has been using this trick for years. They portray themselves as the party of "family values", unlike those heathen democrats that want to destroy Christmas and make everyone gay.

Kind of falls apart now that their leader is an internet troll/thrice married man, but they don't seem to mind as much when it's one of their own.
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Don't forget that whole snatch grabbing thing.

 
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