Drifter
Footballguy
Unless you make your own
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*** Official Raw Milk Thread *** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Maurile Tremblay
- Start date
that was my thought.
The Gator
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Update from Mark McAfee (of Organic Pastures Dairy):
Lester Burnham
Footballguy
I thought Melly got banned?
yellowdog
Footballguy
In a glass, or straight from the tap?
St. Louis Bob
Footballguy
No drinking from the container. 
culdeus
Footballguy
Wrong. Purchased retail can be less than organic beef and purchased in bulk can be cheaper than non-organic meat. This is all I buy.I know there are some organic dairies that don't use hormones or anti-biotics as well as grass feeding their cows. You can buy steaks from similar places as well, but you'll pay a pretty penny for them.I imagine that the decrease in production efficiency leads to the $18/gallon price of the raw milk.They don't give growth hormones to cows to make them produce more milk?Hormones and antibiotics don't go in raw milk. They go in conventional, pasteurized milk.The raw milk producers in California raise their cows on pasture -- about an acre of pasture per cow. Not in feedlots, where cows stand in their own feces their whole lives and are generally diseased (hence the need for antibiotics and pasteurization).that's where you get the yummy growth hormones and antibiotics.
Thanks for the heads up Maurile. Most of my favorite Spanish cheeses are aged raw-milk cheeses (Idiazábal and Cabrales), both of which I've seen in the US.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Maurile,
Thanks for the update. I'm writing an email to my rep right now via the info in this link: www.organicpastures.com/contact_lawmakers.html
BTW, I saw some raw milk Brie at the store yesterday and was tempted to buy it. It was about 75% more expensive than the run-of-the-mill Brie found in the store (about 20€/kilo for the good stuff).
Thanks for the update. I'm writing an email to my rep right now via the info in this link: www.organicpastures.com/contact_lawmakers.html
BTW, I saw some raw milk Brie at the store yesterday and was tempted to buy it. It was about 75% more expensive than the run-of-the-mill Brie found in the store (about 20€/kilo for the good stuff).
wraith5
Footballguy
I don't get this shtick. ... and your milk argument lost me at "Colostrum."
The Z Machine
Footballguy
What's shtick here? Wanting to enjoy fine dairy products?This sort of crap is the same reason that jamón iberico wasn't sold in the US for a long time. It's bull#### thinking not based on empirical data. Unless laziness or rudeness can be traced back to ham, I think the Spanish have done just fine eating quite a bit of jamón iberico.BTW, you should try some if you ever get a hold of any. It's divine.
From the Belfast Telegraph:
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US Presidential Candidate Ron Paul has introduced legislation that would allow the transportation and sale raw milk and raw milk products.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Ok then.... so what if you drink soy milk?
On the dangers of conventional milk:
.I'll put this in the Monsanto thread as well.
.I'll put this in the Monsanto thread as well.
More dairies go raw
Drinkers say unpasteurized milk contains good bacteria
By Darry Madden
Globe Correspondent / February 23, 2008
Jill Ebbott, a holistic health counselor in Brookline, buys 8 gallons of unpasteurized milk a week for her household of three people, and she pours a splash in the bowls that her three dogs eat from. She says a year of drinking raw milk has cleared up her husband's allergies.
"He suffered tree pollen allergies for 21 years," Ebbott said. "In the spring, he was swollen and oozing and had to wear mittens to bed so he didn't scratch himself too much. After 13 months on raw milk, his gut was rebalanced to such a degree that he was healed."
The US Food and Drug Administration warns on its website that drinking unpasteurized milk is "like playing Russian roulette with your health," but Ebbott is part of a growing number of people who reject the long-held belief that pasteurized milk is better for you. People who prefer raw milk say that pasteurization - the process of heating milk to kill bacteria - destroys good bacteria along with the bad.
Massachusetts is among 28 states in which raw milk can be sold for human consumption, and in the past two years the number of dairies licensed to sell it here has gone from 12 to 23. Dairies are selling more raw milk than they were five years ago, according to the Northeast Organic Farming Association, which says it receives calls weekly from consumers trying to find it.
Neither the association nor the Massachusetts Department of Agriculture keep records of how many gallons are produced, but farms say they are producing more raw milk than ever.
Cricket Creek Farm in Williamstown, for example, is primarily a cheese-making operation, but it began selling unpasteurized milk a year ago because customers kept asking for it.
Anecdotal evidence such as Ebbott's is common among people who drink raw milk. But science is beginning to weigh in, too. Researchers at the Institute of Social and Preventive Medicine at the University of Basel in Switzerland followed nearly 15,000 children ages 5 to 15 in Austria, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and Germany from 2001 to 2004. The study, sponsored by the European Union and published in 2007, found that children who drank raw milk had a lower incidence of asthma and allergies.
Spokesman Michael Herndon said the FDA advises against the consumption of raw milk because it is a welcoming host to pathogens such as listeria and salmonella. On its website, the FDA says there is no truth to the assertions that raw milk can cure allergies. The agency says children, the elderly, and people with weakened immune systems are particularly susceptible to the food-borne illnesses that can result from drinking unpasteurized milk.
Raw milk supporters see things differently. They say that although pasteurization kills dangerous bacteria and pathogens such as E. coli and listeria, it also destroys beneficial bacteria, enzymes, and raw fats that boost the immune system and aid digestion. Pasteurization usually goes hand in hand with homogenization, the process that breaks the fat globules in milk into smaller particles. The dairy industry homogenizes milk to prevent the cream from rising and to create a more uniform product, but raw milk advocates say that further corrupts the nutritional value of milk.
"Bottom line is that we're bacteria sapiens," said Mark McAfee, chief executive of Organic Pastures in Fresno, Calif., the nation's largest raw milk dairy. "We have to have good bacteria in our bodies."
more stories like this
Raw milk has been hotly debated in California recently; the state passed a bill late last year effectively banning the sale of raw milk, but is poised to repeal the law.
McAfee, whose $5 million annual business has grown about 25 percent a year, said Organic Pastures boasts an unblemished safety record over its seven years.
Marion Nestle, professor of nutrition, food studies, and public health at New York University, said the growing interest in unpasteurized milk nationally is part of a larger cultural shift toward using and eating food that hasn't been processed.
"It's part of the real food movement that says, 'If it's whole and unprocessed, it's better for me,' " said Nestle, author of several books, including "What to Eat," a guide to good nutrition. "Personally, I prefer my milk pasteurized. But on the other hand, I don't see why raw milk can't be produced according to food safety standards and tested for pathogens and be safe. The whole thing seems to be blown out of proportion."
Raw milk is strictly regulated in most of the 28 states in which it can be sold for human consumption. In Massachusetts, a dairy must be licensed by the state and get approval from the local board of health. Raw milk can be sold in stores in eight states, including Connecticut and Maine, but in Massachusetts in can be sold only at the dairy.
To deal with this rule, consumers have begun forming buying clubs.
Just Dairy, a club on the North Shore, started up in 2003 with just a few families, but now buys 250 gallons of milk a week from three farms in Central Massachusetts and delivers them to 143 families. Members pay a $10 weekly membership fee (to cover administrative costs and gas) and $6 to $8 per gallon of milk, the same price that the club pays the farmer. (A gallon of pasteurized milk costs about $3 to $4 at most supermarkets.)
Beyond health reasons, people who drink raw milk also favor its richer, creamier taste.
Cyndy Gray, who runs Just Dairy, said so many people are buying raw milk that she needs a bigger delivery truck to keep up with the club's growth. "I feel like I'm a farmer," said Gray, a former Coast Guard communications officer. "I'm coming at this with the same dedication that they do."
But there have been problems with raw milk. Last year the state closed nine licensed raw milk dairies for periods ranging from three days to four months for high bacteria counts in the milk, and temporarily shuttered another dairy for unsanitary conditions.
"I do believe it's a safe product," said Scott Soares, the assistant agricultural commissioner. "I don't think problems are an indication of more contamination but more access to raw products."
Robinson Farm in Hardwick, the largest provider of raw milk to Just Dairy, was a conventional dairy, feeding its cows grain and selling milk to a bulk processor to be pasteurized, until 2005. But then the farm's owners changed course. The farm shrank its herd from 100 to 40 cows, put all of them out to pasture, and began the transition to organic production of raw milk. (Raw milk farms are not required to grass-feed their cows, but many consider it important for quality and safety.)
Agri-Mark, a bulk milk processor with plants around New England, handles milk from 60 percent of Massachusetts' dairy farms. The company's position is that all milk should be pasteurized, said its spokesman, Douglas DiMento. "It can be very high quality, but there are organisms you can't see," he said.
But even at Agri-Mark, not everyone agrees.
Dave Patteson, a former farmer who regularly drank unpasteurized milk from his cows and is now the manager of Agri-Mark's laboratory, said it is more important to consider the source of the milk rather than whether it has been pasteurized.
"I'm a huge advocate of just knowing where your food comes from," he said.
Drinkers say unpasteurized milk contains good bacteria
By Darry Madden
Globe Correspondent / February 23, 2008
Jill Ebbott, a holistic health counselor in Brookline, buys 8 gallons of unpasteurized milk a week for her household of three people, and she pours a splash in the bowls that her three dogs eat from. She says a year of drinking raw milk has cleared up her husband's allergies.
"He suffered tree pollen allergies for 21 years," Ebbott said. "In the spring, he was swollen and oozing and had to wear mittens to bed so he didn't scratch himself too much. After 13 months on raw milk, his gut was rebalanced to such a degree that he was healed."
The US Food and Drug Administration warns on its website that drinking unpasteurized milk is "like playing Russian roulette with your health," but Ebbott is part of a growing number of people who reject the long-held belief that pasteurized milk is better for you. People who prefer raw milk say that pasteurization - the process of heating milk to kill bacteria - destroys good bacteria along with the bad.
Massachusetts is among 28 states in which raw milk can be sold for human consumption, and in the past two years the number of dairies licensed to sell it here has gone from 12 to 23. Dairies are selling more raw milk than they were five years ago, according to the Northeast Organic Farming Association, which says it receives calls weekly from consumers trying to find it.
Neither the association nor the Massachusetts Department of Agriculture keep records of how many gallons are produced, but farms say they are producing more raw milk than ever.
Cricket Creek Farm in Williamstown, for example, is primarily a cheese-making operation, but it began selling unpasteurized milk a year ago because customers kept asking for it.
Anecdotal evidence such as Ebbott's is common among people who drink raw milk. But science is beginning to weigh in, too. Researchers at the Institute of Social and Preventive Medicine at the University of Basel in Switzerland followed nearly 15,000 children ages 5 to 15 in Austria, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and Germany from 2001 to 2004. The study, sponsored by the European Union and published in 2007, found that children who drank raw milk had a lower incidence of asthma and allergies.
Spokesman Michael Herndon said the FDA advises against the consumption of raw milk because it is a welcoming host to pathogens such as listeria and salmonella. On its website, the FDA says there is no truth to the assertions that raw milk can cure allergies. The agency says children, the elderly, and people with weakened immune systems are particularly susceptible to the food-borne illnesses that can result from drinking unpasteurized milk.
Raw milk supporters see things differently. They say that although pasteurization kills dangerous bacteria and pathogens such as E. coli and listeria, it also destroys beneficial bacteria, enzymes, and raw fats that boost the immune system and aid digestion. Pasteurization usually goes hand in hand with homogenization, the process that breaks the fat globules in milk into smaller particles. The dairy industry homogenizes milk to prevent the cream from rising and to create a more uniform product, but raw milk advocates say that further corrupts the nutritional value of milk.
"Bottom line is that we're bacteria sapiens," said Mark McAfee, chief executive of Organic Pastures in Fresno, Calif., the nation's largest raw milk dairy. "We have to have good bacteria in our bodies."
more stories like this
Raw milk has been hotly debated in California recently; the state passed a bill late last year effectively banning the sale of raw milk, but is poised to repeal the law.
McAfee, whose $5 million annual business has grown about 25 percent a year, said Organic Pastures boasts an unblemished safety record over its seven years.
Marion Nestle, professor of nutrition, food studies, and public health at New York University, said the growing interest in unpasteurized milk nationally is part of a larger cultural shift toward using and eating food that hasn't been processed.
"It's part of the real food movement that says, 'If it's whole and unprocessed, it's better for me,' " said Nestle, author of several books, including "What to Eat," a guide to good nutrition. "Personally, I prefer my milk pasteurized. But on the other hand, I don't see why raw milk can't be produced according to food safety standards and tested for pathogens and be safe. The whole thing seems to be blown out of proportion."
Raw milk is strictly regulated in most of the 28 states in which it can be sold for human consumption. In Massachusetts, a dairy must be licensed by the state and get approval from the local board of health. Raw milk can be sold in stores in eight states, including Connecticut and Maine, but in Massachusetts in can be sold only at the dairy.
To deal with this rule, consumers have begun forming buying clubs.
Just Dairy, a club on the North Shore, started up in 2003 with just a few families, but now buys 250 gallons of milk a week from three farms in Central Massachusetts and delivers them to 143 families. Members pay a $10 weekly membership fee (to cover administrative costs and gas) and $6 to $8 per gallon of milk, the same price that the club pays the farmer. (A gallon of pasteurized milk costs about $3 to $4 at most supermarkets.)
Beyond health reasons, people who drink raw milk also favor its richer, creamier taste.
Cyndy Gray, who runs Just Dairy, said so many people are buying raw milk that she needs a bigger delivery truck to keep up with the club's growth. "I feel like I'm a farmer," said Gray, a former Coast Guard communications officer. "I'm coming at this with the same dedication that they do."
But there have been problems with raw milk. Last year the state closed nine licensed raw milk dairies for periods ranging from three days to four months for high bacteria counts in the milk, and temporarily shuttered another dairy for unsanitary conditions.
"I do believe it's a safe product," said Scott Soares, the assistant agricultural commissioner. "I don't think problems are an indication of more contamination but more access to raw products."
Robinson Farm in Hardwick, the largest provider of raw milk to Just Dairy, was a conventional dairy, feeding its cows grain and selling milk to a bulk processor to be pasteurized, until 2005. But then the farm's owners changed course. The farm shrank its herd from 100 to 40 cows, put all of them out to pasture, and began the transition to organic production of raw milk. (Raw milk farms are not required to grass-feed their cows, but many consider it important for quality and safety.)
Agri-Mark, a bulk milk processor with plants around New England, handles milk from 60 percent of Massachusetts' dairy farms. The company's position is that all milk should be pasteurized, said its spokesman, Douglas DiMento. "It can be very high quality, but there are organisms you can't see," he said.
But even at Agri-Mark, not everyone agrees.
Dave Patteson, a former farmer who regularly drank unpasteurized milk from his cows and is now the manager of Agri-Mark's laboratory, said it is more important to consider the source of the milk rather than whether it has been pasteurized.
"I'm a huge advocate of just knowing where your food comes from," he said.
Foosball God
Foos
How many shares of local bovine have you bought Maurile?
I don't have to buy shares. Here in California, I can get real milk right in the grocery store.
Foosball God
Foos
So they didn't ban raw milk in January 2008? You need to change your thread title.
They banned it, and the ban is still on the books.But they (meaning the state legislature) banned it based on lies from the dairy lobbyists. When this was pointed out to them, they agreed to un-ban it.The law un-banning it still hasn't been passed, but it should be soon. In the meantime, the ban is not being enforced. So there is still raw milk on the shelves.
I had no idea you could buy raw milk like that.
Learn something every day.
I worked on a dairy farm during my high school years. I can vouch that raw milk didn't kill me. Although I have no problem with regular pasteurized milk. Do sort of think it's interesting that of all the species of life, I think humans are the only ones that drink milk as an adult.
I still have friends that are dairy farmers so I'm glad of it.
J
Learn something every day.
I worked on a dairy farm during my high school years. I can vouch that raw milk didn't kill me. Although I have no problem with regular pasteurized milk. Do sort of think it's interesting that of all the species of life, I think humans are the only ones that drink milk as an adult.
I still have friends that are dairy farmers so I'm glad of it.J
Foosball God
Foos
Hurray for the common man.
Maurile, what kind of processing is done with this raw milk?
J
J
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Maurile, what are the percentages of botulism or other "significant" dangers in the modern production of unpasteurized milk?
There's no homogenizing or pasteurizing or other processing (unless you consider refrigeration to be a form of processing). It's just right from the cow.
If the milk is from sick cows, it's dangerous to drink it without pasteurizing it. That was a major problem in the big cities such as New York in the early 1900s. The city dairies (as opposed to rural farms) were very unhealthy environments for the cows, and the milk they produced was responsible for many human deaths.But the raw milk sold today is not from city dairies. It is from farms where cows roam free and eat grass.
Raw milk has always been available in California, and there has never been a single case of anybody ever getting sick from drinking it. (The FDA attributed four cases of disease to raw milk in 2006; but the milk in question was tested and cleared of all charges.)
Raw milk still has all the living antibodies and probiotic bacteria in it that prevent colonization by harmful bacteria. If you throw a bunch of cells of Clostridium botulinum or harmful E. coli into a glass of raw milk, they will be killed off within the next day. (Depending on how many, I guess.) If you do the same with pasteurized milk, they will proliferate and get the drinker sick.
This may or may not make any difference but purely anecdotal story here. On the dairy farm I worked on years ago, we used a very modern automatic milking setup. The dairymen would do a good job washing down the cows udders and trying to get everything as clean as possible. The milk from the cows travels straight from the udder to a large refrigerated holding tank. Everything is kept nearly surgically clean. Pretty much state of the art setup. The milk processing plant would send people to our dairy and take tours as they thought we were an example of how to do things right. I'd visit other dairy farms and we always had the cleanest operation in the area.Every few days, the dairy processing plant would send a tanker truck to the dairy and we'd empty the milk from our refrigerated holding tank into the big tanker truck.And no matter how clean we kept things with the cows and the hoses and the equipment, there was always at least a big handful of cow manure at the bottom of the holding tank. You just couldn't help it. Most of it came I figured from the cows udders not being totally clean.I'm not a germophobe. But that was kind of uncool I thought and I was glad the milk was pasteurized.Just for what it's worth.J
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Not that I would ever want to consume manure.
But the Organic Pastures website says that, not only has there never been a single human pathogen found in any of their milk (despite quite rigorous testing), but even the cows' manure is free from salmonella. (Unlike that of conventionally raised cows.)
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
It sure looks like you're it's highly unlikely that any widespread tainting of this milk would occur then. Is that your claim?What sort of scientific studies (journal articles preferred) have been done on the statistical analysis of unpasteurized milk? If none, why not?
Cool. Proof is in the reality anyways and people would be getting sick I'm sure if it were a problem. I just remember always being surprised to see that in there when we emptied the tank.On a tangent, it's a fascinating business running a dairy. One huge area I loved was charting the milk production. People think cows are dumb and granted, they're not very trainable for the most part but it was interesting to me to see how they would "give" milk based on things like how the dairymen treated them. We had one guy that made a lot of racket and would yell at the cows and seemed kind of mean. On the shifts he worked, the cows would never give as much milk as they would for the dairymen we had that were more kind and gentle with the cows. You could see the cows get agitated and stressed and it really would affect their milk production.Maurile Tremblay said:Not that I would ever want to consume manure.Joe Bryant said:
Diet was a huge part of it too. It was a good lesson in economics for a kid like me as you always fought the balance of being able to increase milk production with adding more expensive feed to the diet. Would the extra cost for feed pay out in increased milk production? That kind of thing.
Interesting stuff for a young person.
J
How much does a gallon of this organic raw milk cost in the stores?
J
J
Indeed. Sounds like a great experience.I just noticed that the website also says that their cows have "naturally clean udders" because of the clean pasture environment (in contrast to feedlots where animals eat out of a trough). So maybe that cuts down on the manure remnants?Cool. Proof is in the reality anyways and people would be getting sick I'm sure if it were a problem. I just remember always being surprised to see that in there when we emptied the tank.On a tangent, it's a fascinating business running a dairy. One huge area I loved was charting the milk production. People think cows are dumb and granted, they're not very trainable for the most part but it was interesting to me to see how they would "give" milk based on things like how the dairymen treated them. We had one guy that made a lot of racket and would yell at the cows and seemed kind of mean. On the shifts he worked, the cows would never give as much milk as they would for the dairymen we had that were more kind and gentle with the cows. You could see the cows get agitated and stressed and it really would affect their milk production.Maurile Tremblay said:Not that I would ever want to consume manure.Joe Bryant said:
Diet was a huge part of it too. It was a good lesson in economics for a kid like me as you always fought the balance of being able to increase milk production with adding more expensive feed to the diet. Would the extra cost for feed pay out in increased milk production? That kind of thing.
Interesting stuff for a young person.
J
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$18. (Although it's not sold in gallons. It's $9 for a half gallon, or $6 for a quart.)
Yes, the cows being in a pasture vs a feed lot would help with the manure on the udder thing. (didn't really think I'd be typing those words on our football website...)I'd be interested to see how that operation works. I wonder if they supplement the cow's diet with any additional grain and nutrients or if it's just straight grass? That would definitely lower the milk production volume if it's just straight grass I'd think. But it would of course be more natural. Are they Holstein or Jersey cows I wonder? Most big dairys run Holsteins (the black and white cows on the Chick Fil A commercials) over the brown Jersey cows but Jerseys have a better butterfat content and make a "richer" milk.Indeed. Sounds like a great experience.I just noticed that the website also says that their cows have "naturally clean udders" because of the clean pasture environment (in contrast to feedlots where animals eat out of a trough). So maybe that cuts down on the manure remnants?Cool. Proof is in the reality anyways and people would be getting sick I'm sure if it were a problem. I just remember always being surprised to see that in there when we emptied the tank.On a tangent, it's a fascinating business running a dairy. One huge area I loved was charting the milk production. People think cows are dumb and granted, they're not very trainable for the most part but it was interesting to me to see how they would "give" milk based on things like how the dairymen treated them. We had one guy that made a lot of racket and would yell at the cows and seemed kind of mean. On the shifts he worked, the cows would never give as much milk as they would for the dairymen we had that were more kind and gentle with the cows. You could see the cows get agitated and stressed and it really would affect their milk production.Maurile Tremblay said:Not that I would ever want to consume manure.Joe Bryant said:
Diet was a huge part of it too. It was a good lesson in economics for a kid like me as you always fought the balance of being able to increase milk production with adding more expensive feed to the diet. Would the extra cost for feed pay out in increased milk production? That kind of thing.
Interesting stuff for a young person.
J
I'd forgottten I knew some stuff about cows...
J
The herd has Jerseys, Ayrshires, and Holsteins -- and crossbreeds between them.They are grazed purely on open pasture.
The farm uses a 20-cow mobile milking parlor that follows the cows around from pasture to pasture.
Here's an article that describes some of the mechanics of the operation. Pretty interesting article, actually.
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From the article I just linked to: "So while the average dairyman gets $9-11 per hundredweight for his milk, and the average organic dairyman $15-20, Organic Pastures gets what works out to $55-60."
Thanks MT. I've never seen a mobile unit like that. It makes sense though. Dairy cows are not very mobile. And they milk twice a day so it's not like they could afford to be too far from the milking stalls. That's why the feedlot style next to the milking barn is so efficient. When they're out in the pasture, a mobile unit like that would make sense. Interesting - thanks.J
OC Zed
Footballguy
This blog post is really good: Nutrition 101: The One Rule To Remember…
The reason I'm linking to it here is for two comments by Anna. All of her comments on that page are really good, but here are the two relating to milk:
The reason I'm linking to it here is for two comments by Anna. All of her comments on that page are really good, but here are the two relating to milk:
mr. furley
Footballguy
christ, this sounds ####ing fantastic actually
