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******Official SCOTUS Thread****** (1 Viewer)

Why should they?    They want to perform a blanket search of the private cell data of all law clerks inside the walls of the SC.  They also want to force them to sign sworn affidavits.   This is an internal investigation ordered by Roberts.  It's not like this is the DOJ and they have warrants.
Why should they turn over their phone records? Because the investigation is important, so cooperating with it seems sensible.

The fact that this isn't a DOJ investigation with warrants is what makes it fine, IMO. Presumably the clerks are free not to turn anything over. They won't go to jail or anything. They'll just be replaced by more cooperative law clerks. That seems fine to me.

 
Why should they turn over their phone records? Because the investigation is important, so cooperating with it seems sensible.

The fact that this isn't a DOJ investigation with warrants is what makes it fine, IMO. Presumably the clerks are free not to turn anything over. They won't go to jail or anything. They'll just be replaced by more cooperative law clerks. That seems fine to me.


Assuming that the leak was from a clerk, there are usually 4 clerks per justice, so you're totally fine with a blanket invasion of privacy of 35 innocent clerks.   I have a problem with a Supreme Court that is that cavalier with individual privacy.

 
Assuming that the leak was from a clerk, there are usually 4 clerks per justice, so you're totally fine with a blanket invasion of privacy of 35 innocent clerks.   I have a problem with a Supreme Court that is that cavalier with individual privacy.


Privacy didn't seem to be an issue for the leaker.  :shrug:

I don't see how this is a problem, TBH.  Seems like a perfectly fine request to me.

 
Assuming that the leak was from a clerk, there are usually 4 clerks per justice, so you're totally fine with a blanket invasion of privacy of 35 innocent clerks.   I have a problem with a Supreme Court that is that cavalier with individual privacy.
I don't see it as much of an invasion of privacy unless info from the phone records will be made public or used for some purpose other than solving the leak. Whoever is tasked with going through whatever phone records are turned over will be required to ignore and keep strictly confidential anything unrelated to the leak, right? If one of the law clerks was selling weed on the side and gets caught because of this, it won't be used to prosecute them (or fire them, etc.)? If we can assume terms along those lines (which I think we can), then yes, I think this is fine.

 
If my employer thought that I leaked confidential information to the media, they would absolutely search my email traffic and my machine for evidence of that.  I don't honestly know if I could be disciplined for refusing to turn over my phone, but I could imagine a case where some employers would demand that as a condition of employment.  It doesn't seem like SCOTUS would naturally be one of those employers, but my guess is that the FBI probably is.  

Anyway, I have no problem with this.  I'd like to see the leaker identified and moved into some other occupation.

 
If my employer thought that I leaked confidential information to the media, they would absolutely search my email traffic and my machine for evidence of that.  I don't honestly know if I could be disciplined for refusing to turn over my phone, but I could imagine a case where some employers would demand that as a condition of employment.  It doesn't seem like SCOTUS would naturally be one of those employers, but my guess is that the FBI probably is.  

Anyway, I have no problem with this.  I'd like to see the leaker identified and moved into some other occupation.
If your employee thought you leaked confidential information, would it be ok for them to demand the private phone records of everyone else in the company?   

I don't know what a contract looks like for a SC clerk, but I assume that it doesn't include turning over private phone records.   It's one thing for your employer to demand records of a company phone or emails over a company domain.  

This is not the same.

 
If your employee thought you leaked confidential information, would it be ok for them to demand the private phone records of everyone else in the company?   

I don't know what a contract looks like for a SC clerk, but I assume that it doesn't include turning over private phone records.   It's one thing for your employer to demand records of a company phone or emails over a company domain.  

This is not the same.
I know.  That's why I said that out loud in the post that you quoted.

 
If my employer thought that I leaked confidential information to the media, they would absolutely search my email traffic and my machine for evidence of that.  I don't honestly know if I could be disciplined for refusing to turn over my phone, but I could imagine a case where some employers would demand that as a condition of employment.  It doesn't seem like SCOTUS would naturally be one of those employers, but my guess is that the FBI probably is.  

Anyway, I have no problem with this.  I'd like to see the leaker identified and moved into some other occupation.
I don't have a problem with this either, but the first sentence you wrote seems inaccurate.  I would imagine your employer would absolutely search your employer-sponsored e-mail traffic and your employer-provided machine.  I suspect your employer would not demand access to your personal e-mail accounts or personal mobile device/laptop?

 
Guys, when I said 

I don't honestly know if I could be disciplined for refusing to turn over my phone,
I was talking about my private phone.  I thought that was blindingly obvious in the context of that post in this particular thread given the particular discussion at hand, but just in case anybody was unclear, I was thinking along the exact same lines that you are.

 
Why should they turn over their phone records? Because the investigation is important, so cooperating with it seems sensible.

The fact that this isn't a DOJ investigation with warrants is what makes it fine, IMO. Presumably the clerks are free not to turn anything over. They won't go to jail or anything. They'll just be replaced by more cooperative law clerks. That seems fine to me.
Why is the investigation important?  This leak is about as surprising as if someone "leaked" the final score of the Utah State vs Alabama game this September. 

Besides anybody smart enough to get a job as USSC clerk would use a prepaid burner if they were going to leak this.

 
Why is the investigation important?  This leak is about as surprising as if someone "leaked" the final score of the Utah State vs Alabama game this September. 

Besides anybody smart enough to get a job as USSC clerk would use a prepaid burner if they were going to leak this.
You’d think. We have had coaches lose multi million dollar jobs for not being smart enough to hire hookers with burner phones. But I would think as you, surely it would be a burner phone. 

 
You’d think. We have had coaches lose multi million dollar jobs for not being smart enough to hire hookers with burner phones. But I would think as you, surely it would be a burner phone. 
Maybe those college football coaches were overconfident in their ability to win enough games to avoid problems with questionable activities. I'd also hope that USSC clerks would be somewhat brighter than NCAA coaches.

BTW a good source tells me Alabama 63 Utah St 0. 😁 

 
Really strange 5-4 decision in the Texas social media law case.

Roberts, Kavanaugh, Barrett, Sotomayor, Breyer in the majority.

Kagan opposed with Gorsuch, Alito and Thomas but didn't write a dissent.   Maybe just showing opposition to the shadow docket?

 
I’d like to hear from Kagan. Disappointing that we had four justices wanting to allow the law. Seems like a clear 1st Amendment violation. 

 
I’d like to hear from Kagan. Disappointing that we had four justices wanting to allow the law. Seems like a clear 1st Amendment violation. 
I don't think Kagan is really interested in upholding this law.   I think she has a fundamental objection to the way the Court has been disrupting the status of cases through the shadow docket, and that she wants to leave it alone until there is a full adjudication.

 
I hadn’t been following this Texas law. Reading about it now, it’s scary to me that it would get close to being upheld. What an embarrassment for those that believe in conservative principles.

 
Really strange 5-4 decision in the Texas social media law case.

Roberts, Kavanaugh, Barrett, Sotomayor, Breyer in the majority.

Kagan opposed with Gorsuch, Alito and Thomas but didn't write a dissent.   Maybe just showing opposition to the shadow docket?
Interesting vote, no discernible political pattern.

 
Why is the investigation important?  This leak is about as surprising as if someone "leaked" the final score of the Utah State vs Alabama game this September. 

Besides anybody smart enough to get a job as USSC clerk would use a prepaid burner if they were going to leak this.
I'd think an USSC clerk would've been smart enough to choose not to leak this in the first place, but as we've seen, politics often trumps prudence and discretion.

 
For those of us who have no idea what you're talking about, what is the Texas social media law under discussion and how did the court rule on it?


The background is that Texas put this law in place last fall, a reaction to the perception that social media platforms are treating right-wingers unfairly, like banning Trump and others from Twitter.

Here's the law: TX HB20

It prohibits social media platforms with at least 50 million active users from blocking, removing, or “demonetizing” content based on the users’ views. When Texas Gov. Greg Abbott signed the law last September, he declared that “conservative viewpoints in Texas cannot be banned on social media.” 


Several social media interests filed suit in federal court in Texas, and asked the Court to put a "stay" on enforcement of the law pending the outcome of the lawsuit. The judge agreed and entered an order staying enforcement of the law. This judge's order is a good source of background on the law - here. Texas appealed the stay order, and a judge in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals reversed last month, allowing the law to go into effect. The Court of Appeals' decision is one sentence - IT IS ORDERED that appellant’s opposed motion to stay preliminary injunction pending appeal is GRANTED. What's happened at this point is that the Court of Appeals has stayed the District Court's stay order, at which point the case goes back to the District Court to be litigated, and Texas is free to enforce the law while the lawsuit is pending.

The social media plaintiffs appealed to the SCOTUS last month, asking it to vacate the stay entered by the Court of Appeals. The SCOTUS agreed to hear the case, and ordered that the Court of Appeals Order staying the District Court's order should itself be stayed, thereby effectively re-instituting the lower court's stay order. As is common with these shadow docket rulings, there is no majority opinion written, but the dissents sometimes write something as Alito did in this case. (here)  This is typically the only way anyone outside the Court knows the voting breakdown on these orders - if a dissent is published and justices join in it. In this case, Kagan decided to separately note she would not grant the petition, but did not join Alito's dissent. That's a completely voluntary thing for her to do - should could have just left everyone in the dark as to who the 4th dissenting justice is. This all means that the Texas law will not be enforced while the underlying challenge is litigated. Whatever the outcome of that case will then prevail, and possibly be appealed. 

I agree with @Fish that Kagan's dissent likely is based on her opposition to the increasingly activist "shadow docket" rulings. The Court is becoming increasingly active in ruling on these emergency appeals, seeking orders (rather than opinions in cases that are actually on the Court's docket.) The common perception, for obvious reasons, is that the justices rulings on these procedural orders foreshadows how they will ultimately rule if/when the constitutionality of the law is before them on appeal - likely 2 or so years from now.

 
I hadn’t been following this Texas law. Reading about it now, it’s scary to me that it would get close to being upheld. What an embarrassment for those that believe in conservative principles.


It wasn't close to being upheld. Upholding a law generally won't happen until after the case against it has been heard. This was about what should happen with the law during the period before any decision is made -- by a district court, appellate court, or the Supreme Court -- about whether the law should be upheld.

 
It wasn't close to being upheld. Upholding a law generally won't happen until after the case against it has been heard. This was about what should happen with the law during the period before any decision is made -- by a district court, appellate court, or the Supreme Court -- about whether the law should be upheld.
Thanks. What would have happened if the vote was 5-4 the other way? The law would have been in effect until some future court action?  What burden would this have placed on these social media companies? Our slow moving system can be a problem.
 

 
Thanks. What would have happened if the vote was 5-4 the other way? The law would have been in effect until some future court action?  What burden would this have placed on these social media companies? Our slow moving system can be a problem.
For this particular law, I assume Twitter et.al. would have ignored it.  The law as written made it impossible for them to comply.  Not "difficult", but literally impossible.  No matter what actions the companies took, they would run afoul of at least one provision.

 
David Lat has what seems to me to be a sensible, pragmatic take on the leak investigation and how clerks should respond to the request for phone records. 

If you’re going to reap the rewards of being a SCOTUS clerk, ranging from a $400,000+ law firm signing bonus to greatly enhanced chances of becoming a judge or justice, you should do your part when called upon to help the Court. As Professor Laurence Tribe told Tierney Sneed of CNN, you can certainly refuse to cooperate—but if you do, then you should accept the consequences, which “should include losing [your] job and losing the CV value, the resume value that job would otherwise have going forward.” In other words, you can’t have your SCOTUS cake and eat it too.

Second, complying with the requests is the self-interested thing to do. You’re a clerk from the October Term 2021 class—a clerk cohort that right now is going down in infamy. If the leaker is never discovered or not discovered until decades later (a la Deep Throat), for years there will be an asterisk next to your name at the top of your resume: *Possibly the SCOTUS leaker. You do not want that. 

 
Why don't they all just girlcott the whole ordeal and not turn over their phones en masse? 

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
rockaction said:
Why don't they all just girlcott the whole ordeal and not turn over their phones en masse? 


Most of them probably want the investigation to be fruitful, and turning over their phone can help?


I hate to be pedantic, but is there a difference between "turning over their phone" and turning over their "phone records" as it is typically stated? I'm not sure what is being asked. My normal reaction in any situation where the government is asking for private information from private citizens is, "show me the warrant."  I can see an exception to my general reaction in this extraordinary circumstance, but for me there's a difference between - "we want to go through everything on your phone" and "we want to see everyone you communicated with via phone, messaging, etc. over the past couple months." The latter being more what I would consider to be "phone records." I would think they don't need to have full access to the person's texts, photos, etc. to be able to confirm whether they were communicating with someone associated with Politico.

 
Orders at 9:30 est. this morning and at least one opinion (likely more) will be released starting at 10:00. I think there are still 33 opinions to be released from this term.  I typically follow the live blog here: https://www.scotusblog.com/
It seems like they nearly always save the highest-profile batch of opinions for last.  So, for example, I'm not expecting the Dobbs opinion for a few more weeks.

a) For folks like you who follow the court more closely than me, is there any truth to that, or is just selective memory on my part?

b) If there's any accuracy to that observation, is there a reason why they do it that way?  I know it's tempting to say "They really want to make sure they're doing their best work on the most scrutinized cases, so they put extra time into those opinions."  But that time and energy could have just been invested on the front end.  Anybody who's ever written a report or paper might understand what I'm getting at.  At some point, it's done and you might as well send it out -- after you've invested a certain amount of time into it, there's no longer any purpose in further revision.

 
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It seems like they nearly always save the highest-profile batch of opinions for last.  So, for example, I'm not expecting the Dobbs opinion for a few more weeks.

a) For folks like you who follow the court more closely than me, is there any truth to that, or is just selective memory on my part?

b) If there's any accuracy to that observation, is there a reason why they do it that way?  I know it's tempting to say "They really want to make sure they're doing their best work on the most scrutinized cases, so they put extra time into those opinions."  But that time and energy could have just been invested on the front end.  Anybody who's ever written a report or paper might understand what I'm getting at.  At some point, it's done and you might as well send it out -- after you've invested a certain amount of time into it, there's no longer any purpose in further revision.


I'm purely a hobbyist on the SCOTUS and can't say for certain. I do agree they seem to save the biggest to the end, but there may well be something to the notion that those big cases just take more work, more discussion, more arguing, revising, etc. Being supreme court justices, they are by nature extremely arrogant and self-absorbed men and women, so maybe they just like the drama.

Here are some brief summaries of the remaining 33 cases: https://amylhowe.com/2022/06/06/as-the-justices-enter-june-heres-whats-left/

 
Just two decisions this morning - the Gallardo case and the Southwest Air case.  We'll see if they start adding more opinion days.

These seem underwhelming, but the Gallardo case will keep me busy for a while. This case involves reimbursement of Medicaid expenses in third party tort (personal injury) situations, and will have a significant impact on my partner's practice, so we'll be doing a client update today as soon as we can digest the case and put something together.

 
There was a special opinion day today - which I think they announced late Monday or early yesterday - then they released just one opinion! Its like the Court is trolling the SCOTUS geeks now. It was another Thomas opinion (3 of the 4 opinions released this week were written by Thomas) - on an issue involving an excessive force claim against a Federal Border Patrol agent (4th and 1st amendment claims).  I believe there are now just 29 opinions left this term. Next opinion day will almost certainly be Monday, but it also appears highly likely Wednesdays will become the norm from here on out, and maybe they'll even add a third day here or there.

A slightly odd formation on the Thomas opinion today, but basically a 9-0 on one of the issues they decided and a 6-3 on the other. The case involves a person's rights to sue a Border Patrol agent under causes of action based on the 4th or 1st.  The main notable thing from the opinion is that Thomas inserted a picture at page 2. I'm a big fan of pictures in SCOTUS opinions.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/21-147_g31h.pdf

There is also a classically Thomasian statement of the facts, which in most cases I love to see. And yes, it is indeed true that the prospective plaintiff in this case is an Inn owner on the US/Canada border and the Inn is appropriately named the "Smuggler's Inn" which is fantastic.

Lots of discussion now as to who will write the NY Gun case, but I think its pure speculation.  I don't think any of the tea leave readers can actually tell yet based on the opinions released so far.

 
I thought this was the expected result.  Not an expert on Bivens by any means, but I was under the impression that it was pretty unlikely that the plaintiff would prevail here.

 
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I wonder if Thomas' end goal is to keep getting rid of implied rights until he can overturn Loving v. Virginia so he can get rid of Ginni without having to go through a divorce.

 
I thought this was the expected result.  Not an expert on Bivens by any means, but I was under the impression that it was pretty unlikely that the plaintiff would prevail here.
They gutted 50 years of precedent.   Again.   And without applying the factors that they claimed a couple weeks ago that you're supposed to apply when you decide to ignore stare decisis.   Again.   

 
Would seem that the counterarguments to Bivens gained intellectual traction during Rehnquist's time. Like around '85-'88, which should be no surprise. 

It can't be gutted today if it was being eviscerated the whole time by the conservative justices. 

I'm no expert, and don't really have an opinion on the matter, but it doesn't seem like they've thrown out anything they weren't making noises that they wouldn't throw out when it came time for a majority like the one we have now to rule on cases.

Whether it's in keeping with their own stare decisis standards is something for others to determine also. 

Just seems like a bit of an overreaction that it's been "gutted" so suddenly and drastically. 

 
Definitely within their rights.  It's likely a career killer, though.
This may be true. I do wonder if whoever is leading this investigation, asked all the justices to turn over their phones, what the court's reaction would be.

 
I should add to my last post and say that I'm disappointed that the Court seems to find no cause of action for really any malfeasance by federal officers. I've been actually pretty disappointed with the current decisions by the Court. From not slam-dunking the Texas enforcement mechanism regarding abortion to Thomas's recent upholding of a death sentence when counsel didn't represent the client functionally, it's been a huge disappointment to those of us that take civil rights, freedoms, and liberties seriously.

Careful what you wished for twenty years ago. In my case, I'm getting it and I don't like it. 

 
I should add to my last post and say that I'm disappointed that the Court seems to find no cause of action for really any malfeasance by federal officers. I've been actually pretty disappointed with the current decisions by the Court. From not slam-dunking the Texas enforcement mechanism regarding abortion to Thomas's recent upholding of a death sentence when counsel didn't represent the client functionally, it's been a huge disappointment to those of us that take civil rights, freedoms, and liberties seriously.

Careful what you wished for twenty years ago. In my case, I'm getting it and I don't like it. 
This one is irritating.  It seems like there should be an "Oh, come on" doctrine that prevents this kind of obvious angle-shooting.

 
It seems like they nearly always save the highest-profile batch of opinions for last.  So, for example, I'm not expecting the Dobbs opinion for a few more weeks.

a) For folks like you who follow the court more closely than me, is there any truth to that, or is just selective memory on my part?

b) If there's any accuracy to that observation, is there a reason why they do it that way?  I know it's tempting to say "They really want to make sure they're doing their best work on the most scrutinized cases, so they put extra time into those opinions."  But that time and energy could have just been invested on the front end.  Anybody who's ever written a report or paper might understand what I'm getting at.  At some point, it's done and you might as well send it out -- after you've invested a certain amount of time into it, there's no longer any purpose in further revision.
The drafting process is a cycle of sending a majority draft out, getting edits, getting separate opinions, revising the majority to incorporate edits and respond to the separate opinions, new comments, new revisions to the separate opinions to respond to the revisions in the majority, etc etc. In a high profile case, odds are most of the judges have strong feelings about it, and so there’s a magnified focus on little things that may not get the same degree of attention as an opinion on a subject no one really cares that much about. So ultimately, one of the only things that can stop that cycle of revisions and tweaking is a deadline. 

 
I think expecting civil unrest and death etc as the likely outcome of adding a few SCOTUS seats is more unreasonable than anything I am suggesting.  I think the court should move to 11, Garland should get a spot and there should be term limits. I know the likely outcome is 0 of those 3 ever happening, but what the republicans did with their October push through was way more dramatic than anything the democrats would do. Imo. 
 

How would ACB be paying for anything if the court goes from 9 to 11? Sure her vote gets diluted a little but it doesn’t have anything to do with her personally. ...

....I don’t think the idea of bloodshed following going to 11 seats is even remotely likely, but like you said we don’t have to agree here.....


https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/767468-official-scotus-thread/page/43/#comment-23084180

Posted November 14, 2020

Do you not see the long term outcome from SCOTUS court packing? An increasing number of Justices to the point where a critical case/vote will only be swayed by having either a fringe element of the radical left OR right pick someone off. Is that the future some of you want for your kids? Because if you have court packing and each side keeps adding Justices, the only equalizer without term limits is death. Do any you want open firefights between US Marshals and some fringe group trying to ambush someone to eliminate a vote? Or multiple votes at once?...Amy Coney Barrett should not have to pay for what happened to Merrick Garland. Merrick Garland should not have to pay for some previous partisan **** measuring contest....

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/791279-who-will-be-the-gop-candidate-in-2024/page/8/#comment-23253133

Posted February 16, 2021

...US Marshals SOG is their tactical Special Operations Group. While they are not primarily tasked with close protection, the reality is that an actual threat to a sitting Supreme Court Justice would very likely be a well coordinated well funded pre planned strike from a comparable Tier 1 level tactical unit....Since the only way to change the numbers on SCOTUS is through retirement ( rare) and death ( unpredictable), this hyper accelerates the threat risk to Thomas. Extreme Pro Choice radical leftists will want to cancel out the conservative vote on SCOTUS. The easiest way to change the Court, in the eyes of extremists, is to start picking them off....Colloton, Pityuk and Ho are all seen as GOP SCOTUS contenders, at varying levels, but have Pro Life leanings in their background. To nominate and confirm any of them would only further enrage extremists and lend the narrative that Roe Vs Wade is going to shift. Pacold worked for Thomas and that would literally start a war in the streets if she somehow turned longshot status into SCOTUS....US Marshals has to coordinate with Secret Service ( via DHS) and Diplomatic Security Service as well as Federal Protective Service and Capitol Police to coordinate security for sitting Justices. DHS doesn't want this kind of conflict on their watch. If you pick off Thomas, the response by the extreme radical right will be to pick off liberal Justices in response....

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/page/686/#comment-23425131

Posted June 6, 2021

The problem with packing SCOTUS is the extreme elements of the radical Pro Choice and radical Pro Life factions. Since Clarence Thomas will be seen as the biggest potential proponent of overturning Roe Vs Wade and some extremists will believe SCOTUS will try to do it before the court is truly packed, then he's an open target. You cannot change SCOTUS without retirement or end of life. Some extremists will try to speed up the second version of that story. Once someone makes a move on Thomas, it will turn ugly in the streets. There will be two narratives. One that the radical left will resort to violence and stop the passive aggressive culture stealing. The other will be white supremacists tried to hit a high profile African American, and thus all poor rural white Republicans must be purified....

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/791279-who-will-be-the-gop-candidate-in-2024/page/8/#comment-23254339

Posted February 17, 2021

...The number of death threats that brand name American politicians have gotten in the last year has skyrocketed exponentially. You think Clarence Thomas isn't being bracketed like the rest? Have you seen how rabid the Pro Life/Pro Choice extremists can get.....

*******

Regarding the recent attempted hit on Kavanaugh, I predicted this outcome in late 2020 all the way through 2021.

@Capella said I was being dramatic.

So it's not just the current threat against Kavanaugh, it's the entire pathway towards anything moving towards "court packing" at this point. It's going to likely trigger violence on both sides.

Martha Pacold moves up the short list now if the GOP takes POTUS 2024 and holds it through the 2028 cycle.  Is Pacold the most qualified out of the practical contenders? No. Does she provide a type of "hard line cost certainty" for Pro Life for the Conservative base? Yes. Does she avoid many of the predictable pitfalls against any denouncement by the current Democratic Party that pushes so much identity politics and "cancelling"? Yes.  Is she young enough ( early 40s) to give some longevity for a Conservative viewpoint on SCOTUS if she makes it that far? Yes

Unfortunately, the latter considerations are operationally the bigger questions.

This is the "tax" on our society that comes from identity politics. How defensible is the candidate against all out attack versus on how much they can do to help make American great again.

 

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