***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (9 Viewers)

[Slapdash]

It's not the right time for it yet but you can't have a world class league with the bulk of the nation's teams locked into permanent minor league status. We will need viable Rochesters and Nashvilles and Omahas to supplement the powerhouses that can play at a world class level.

we are at earliest 30 years from that happening.

I am not sure people understand just how precarious it is trying to run a lower level soccer team in the US. Teams go out of business constantly. USL Pro is only staying alive due to smartly aligning with MLS to get some funding.

The NASL could easily go out of business in 2-3 years leaving us with no second division.

Most lower level teams play in actual or glorified high school football stadiums.

The infrastructure needed is going to take decades and a ton of public support which we know is not easy. We need almost every lower level team to have a Blackbaud type stadium before any one can even think of promotion relegation imo.

 

[Sammy3469]

A big part of the reason MLS clubs are worth 100 million and a team like Villa is having trouble being sold is there is no relegation here. No owner will ever agree to it, nor should they. The threat of relegation for the non top teams is so bad, it's not even funny.

 

[NewlyRetired]

It's not the right time for it yet but you can't have a world class league with the bulk of the nation's teams locked into permanent minor league status. We will need viable Rochesters and Nashvilles and Omahas to supplement the powerhouses that can play at a world class level.

we are at earliest 30 years from that happening.

I am not sure people understand just how precarious it is trying to run a lower level soccer team in the US. Teams go out of business constantly. USL Pro is only staying alive due to smartly aligning with MLS to get some funding.

The NASL could easily go out of business in 2-3 years leaving us with no second division.

Most lower level teams play in actual or glorified high school football stadiums.

The infrastructure needed is going to take decades and a ton of public support which we know is not easy. We need almost every lower level team to have a Blackbaud type stadium before any one can even think of promotion relegation imo.

I have never been to the stadium. Am I wrong that it is a nice stadium for a lower division team? From pics it looks nice but I guess that can be deceiving.

 

[The Gator]

A big part of the reason MLS clubs are worth 100 million and a team like Villa is having trouble being sold is there is no relegation here. No owner will ever agree to it, nor should they. The threat of relegation for the non top teams is so bad, it's not even funny.

And Villa will likely go for 2-3x as much as that. If Lerner wanted 100M, it likely would have been sold already.

FFP likely hurt the sale more than the worry off relegation

 

[NewlyRetired]

A big part of the reason MLS clubs are worth 100 million and a team like Villa is having trouble being sold is there is no relegation here. No owner will ever agree to it, nor should they. The threat of relegation for the non top teams is so bad, it's not even funny.

And Villa will likely go for 2-3x as much as that. If Lerner wanted 100M, it likely would have been sold already.FFP likely hurt the sale more than the worry off relegation

Of course it will go for at least that much. The team owns the stadium which is a huge difference. I think it is safe to say that if NYCFC was sold with a soccer stadium it would have gone for significantly more than $100m as well. And obviously the revenues in the EPL are significantly higher than MLS which also factors into the sale price.

In the end though promotion relegation is a total non starter in the US market. The only way I ever see it happening is MLS completely fails and shuts down and some new owners try again in the distant future, on likely a significantly smaller scale than MLS has grown to.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

There's more of a chance of Europe ditching pro-rel than of the US implementing it. Just like the fall-to-spring schedule. Much better chance that Europe moves to an MLS type schedule than the other way around.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Here is a good recent article that talks about promotion and relegation in MLS that is worth a read for those hoping to see it implemented some day.

MLS 2014: So many logical reasons for people promoting relegation to give it up

Appearing at a news conference last week during Major League Soccer’s all-star festivities, deputy commissioner Mark Abbot was asked about the chances the league would institute the promotion/relegation mechanism that exists in most other world leagues. The word “never” was a significant part of his answer. It was as though he were asked whether MLS might allow its players to use their hands.

This would not seem like such a big deal. There isn’t another U.S. professional sport that has a system of promotion and relegation, in which teams that finish at the bottom of the highest league’s standings are dropped to a minor league, whereas the teams that finish best in the minor league are promoted to play in the big time.

It turns out, though, there is this curious sub-culture of American soccer fans who reject MLS not because the standard of play is less than the best in the world or the absence of a nearby team, but rather because the league declined to embrace the promotion/relegation concept when it was founded in 1996.

Hey, some people enjoy dressing up like zombies and others attend conventions dressed as stuffed animals, so perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised by any particular or peculiar passions.

And yet, I was.

I stumbled into this debate, which isn’t really a debate, by writing an article a week ago that suggested MLS needed to assure the excitement created in this country by the 2014 World Cup isn’t spent entirely on Premier League teams thousands of miles away in England. I was immediately assailed on Twitter for endorsing a league that rejects the concept of promotion/relegation.

Although I was vacationing in Santa Monica when that article appeared, the overwhelming dudgeon of the three or four most committed pro/rel supporters led me to spend far too much of a couple lovely beach days proving them wrong responding to their points. Perhaps I should have been reading Frederick Forsythe, but it’s not often one gets to be this correct in an argument.

The biggest argument in favor of pro/rel seems to be: That’s how everyone else does it. However true that may be – Mexico’s Liga MX is smart enough only to dabble, relegating just one team per season -- it’s certainly not a good enough reason to do it here.

Everyone else does it mostly because that’s how the English did it at the beginning, and the sport was invented in the British Isles. But America had professional baseball, football, ice hockey and basketball long before it had an enduring professional soccer league.

Major League Baseball does not have promotion and relegation. The National Hockey League does not. The NBA is not swapping the Fort Wayne Mad Ants for the Milwaukee Bucks. Not now, not ever. The National Football League, the most lucrative pro sports league on the planet, does not even have an official minor league.

The absence of pro/rel has made purchasing a major-league sports franchise in the U.S. a far more stable investment. Franchise values in this country's four established leagues have continued to escalate over time, and relative newcomer MLS is getting 10 times more in expansion fees for NYCFC than what it charged Chivas USA and Real Salt Lake to join roughly a decade ago.

Some contend it’s not a true competition if the worst teams don’t get kicked out of the league every year, and yet that system is largely responsible for the absence of true title competition in Europe’s best leagues.

Under pro/rel, wealthy, entrenched clubs such as Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea needn't worry in the least about being dropped out of England’s Premier League, whereas Fulham went from playing in the Europa League final in 2010 and an eighth-place league finish the following season to being shoved out the door and into the bushes following a disappointing 2013-14.

The scramble to avoid relegation, which carries with it an enormous financial penalty, is consuming for all but the wealthiest clubs. Which is exactly as the wealthy teams want it to be.

There is a presumption among its ardent supporters that pro/rel is an open, democratic system of running a sport. That’s the con the wealthy teams have been running for the past couple decades, since real money began flowing into the sport. The pro/rel system actually functions like a relic of England’s old caste system, when the working class scrambled for survival while the privileged lived off their fortunes.

During the past decade, the average number of different league winners in England, Italy, Spain and Germany is 3.5. In MLS, seven different teams have won the MLS Cup and six have won the Supporters Shield for accumulating the most points in the regular season.

The absence of pro/rel is a serious factor in the growth of MLS through the construction of soccer-first stadiums in such places as Salt Lake, Philadelphia, Dallas and Los Angeles, all of which enrich the experience of American soccer fans. Communities that provide tax breaks or funding for major-league facilities, such as Sporting KC Park, won’t want to see those investments tank because the star striker blows out his knee one year and the team gets relegated to a minor league.

It’s easy to figure it was that way at the beginning, as well, when Alan Rothenberg was selling investors on Major League Soccer with the memory of the North American Soccer League’s implosion still reasonably fresh.

Can you imagine?

Rothenberg: I need all of you to put up several million of your personal fortunes and to be willing to absorb many millions more in losses as we establish this league. It’ll be a while before anyone’s making money. And, of course, the two of you that field the worst teams are going to be kicked out at the end of the year and will have to win in the minors to be able to rejoin us.

Wealthy potential investor 1: Uh, about that last part: why?

Rothenberg: Because the English do it that way.

WPI 2: Yes, Mr. Rothenberg, we’re all leaving now. Do you validate parking?

 

[El Floppo]

A big part of the reason MLS clubs are worth 100 million and a team like Villa is having trouble being sold is there is no relegation here. No owner will ever agree to it, nor should they. The threat of relegation for the non top teams is so bad, it's not even funny.

yeah. this.

and I still don't think it's close to needed here.

 

[roadkill1292]

We're not gonna have an American styled closed league here that's ever gonna be worth a damn. We don't have to copy everyone else exactly but you have to give people two things: great teams to watch and hope.

 

[NewlyRetired]

We're not gonna have an American styled closed league here that's ever gonna be worth a damn. We don't have to copy everyone else exactly but you have to give people two things: great teams to watch and hope.

What hope do any teams in Spain or in many other leagues across Europe have outside of same the top 3 teams year after year after year?

 

[Jaysus]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

Even these guys?

 

[Jaysus]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

Even these guys?

: that did not make it on to Fox Soccer+ tonight.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

Even these guys?

So this is a "not copy" Euro moment right?

 

[roadkill1292]

We're not gonna have an American styled closed league here that's ever gonna be worth a damn. We don't have to copy everyone else exactly but you have to give people two things: great teams to watch and hope.

What hope do any teams in Spain or in many other leagues across Europe have outside of same the top 3 teams year after year after year?

The top division isn't the only division. I'm sorry but I'm not supporting any more cartels, even one that is bringing the great game to our country.

 

[bentley]

I don't get the need for promotion/relegation. That seems like an impediment to the ownership investments we need to be a real top league. We have the best of every other sport without it. Agree on ditching single entity.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Nice week in the CCL for MLS teams.

DC, Portland, Montreal and KC all won. NY was the only team that lost and that was to Montreal.

Montreal and DC are in an excellent spot to advance to the quarters

Portland and KC are in very good spots to advance to quarters.

MLS has never put 4 teams in the quarter finals.

 

[Kafka]

Here is a good recent article that talks about promotion and relegation in MLS that is worth a read for those hoping to see it implemented some day. MLS 2014: So many logical reasons for people promoting relegation to give it up

Appearing at a news conference last week during Major League Soccer’s all-star festivities, deputy commissioner Mark Abbot was asked about the chances the league would institute the promotion/relegation mechanism that exists in most other world leagues. The word “never” was a significant part of his answer. It was as though he were asked whether MLS might allow its players to use their hands.

This would not seem like such a big deal. There isn’t another U.S. professional sport that has a system of promotion and relegation, in which teams that finish at the bottom of the highest league’s standings are dropped to a minor league, whereas the teams that finish best in the minor league are promoted to play in the big time.

It turns out, though, there is this curious sub-culture of American soccer fans who reject MLS not because the standard of play is less than the best in the world or the absence of a nearby team, but rather because the league declined to embrace the promotion/relegation concept when it was founded in 1996.

Hey, some people enjoy dressing up like zombies and others attend conventions dressed as stuffed animals, so perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised by any particular or peculiar passions.

And yet, I was.

I stumbled into this debate, which isn’t really a debate, by writing an article a week ago that suggested MLS needed to assure the excitement created in this country by the 2014 World Cup isn’t spent entirely on Premier League teams thousands of miles away in England. I was immediately assailed on Twitter for endorsing a league that rejects the concept of promotion/relegation.

Although I was vacationing in Santa Monica when that article appeared, the overwhelming dudgeon of the three or four most committed pro/rel supporters led me to spend far too much of a couple lovely beach days proving them wrong responding to their points. Perhaps I should have been reading Frederick Forsythe, but it’s not often one gets to be this correct in an argument.

The biggest argument in favor of pro/rel seems to be: That’s how everyone else does it. However true that may be – Mexico’s Liga MX is smart enough only to dabble, relegating just one team per season -- it’s certainly not a good enough reason to do it here.

Everyone else does it mostly because that’s how the English did it at the beginning, and the sport was invented in the British Isles. But America had professional baseball, football, ice hockey and basketball long before it had an enduring professional soccer league.

Major League Baseball does not have promotion and relegation. The National Hockey League does not. The NBA is not swapping the Fort Wayne Mad Ants for the Milwaukee Bucks. Not now, not ever. The National Football League, the most lucrative pro sports league on the planet, does not even have an official minor league.

The absence of pro/rel has made purchasing a major-league sports franchise in the U.S. a far more stable investment. Franchise values in this country's four established leagues have continued to escalate over time, and relative newcomer MLS is getting 10 times more in expansion fees for NYCFC than what it charged Chivas USA and Real Salt Lake to join roughly a decade ago.

Some contend it’s not a true competition if the worst teams don’t get kicked out of the league every year, and yet that system is largely responsible for the absence of true title competition in Europe’s best leagues.

Under pro/rel, wealthy, entrenched clubs such as Manchester United, Arsenal and Chelsea needn't worry in the least about being dropped out of England’s Premier League, whereas Fulham went from playing in the Europa League final in 2010 and an eighth-place league finish the following season to being shoved out the door and into the bushes following a disappointing 2013-14.

The scramble to avoid relegation, which carries with it an enormous financial penalty, is consuming for all but the wealthiest clubs. Which is exactly as the wealthy teams want it to be.

There is a presumption among its ardent supporters that pro/rel is an open, democratic system of running a sport. That’s the con the wealthy teams have been running for the past couple decades, since real money began flowing into the sport. The pro/rel system actually functions like a relic of England’s old caste system, when the working class scrambled for survival while the privileged lived off their fortunes.

During the past decade, the average number of different league winners in England, Italy, Spain and Germany is 3.5. In MLS, seven different teams have won the MLS Cup and six have won the Supporters Shield for accumulating the most points in the regular season.

The absence of pro/rel is a serious factor in the growth of MLS through the construction of soccer-first stadiums in such places as Salt Lake, Philadelphia, Dallas and Los Angeles, all of which enrich the experience of American soccer fans. Communities that provide tax breaks or funding for major-league facilities, such as Sporting KC Park, won’t want to see those investments tank because the star striker blows out his knee one year and the team gets relegated to a minor league.

It’s easy to figure it was that way at the beginning, as well, when Alan Rothenberg was selling investors on Major League Soccer with the memory of the North American Soccer League’s implosion still reasonably fresh.

Can you imagine?

Rothenberg: I need all of you to put up several million of your personal fortunes and to be willing to absorb many millions more in losses as we establish this league. It’ll be a while before anyone’s making money. And, of course, the two of you that field the worst teams are going to be kicked out at the end of the year and will have to win in the minors to be able to rejoin us.

Wealthy potential investor 1: Uh, about that last part: why?

Rothenberg: Because the English do it that way.

WPI 2: Yes, Mr. Rothenberg, we’re all leaving now. Do you validate parking?

Trotsky vs. Lenin...do you take the proletarian revolution worldwide, or do you let it stagnate? ...of course, Leon ended up with an axe embedded in his head whilst in Mexico, so there's that...

 

[Slapdash]

It's not the right time for it yet but you can't have a world class league with the bulk of the nation's teams locked into permanent minor league status. We will need viable Rochesters and Nashvilles and Omahas to supplement the powerhouses that can play at a world class level.

we are at earliest 30 years from that happening.

I am not sure people understand just how precarious it is trying to run a lower level soccer team in the US. Teams go out of business constantly. USL Pro is only staying alive due to smartly aligning with MLS to get some funding.

The NASL could easily go out of business in 2-3 years leaving us with no second division.

Most lower level teams play in actual or glorified high school football stadiums.

The infrastructure needed is going to take decades and a ton of public support which we know is not easy. We need almost every lower level team to have a Blackbaud type stadium before any one can even think of promotion relegation imo.

I have never been to the stadium. Am I wrong that it is a nice stadium for a lower division team? From pics it looks nice but I guess that can be deceiving.

No, you are spot on. It is a great stadium when you set aside the inability to shoot the cannon anymore. Just disappointing that it is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[CBusAlex]

At least 4 of the 8 CCL groups (and possibly all 8 of them) will be determined on the final matchday. I like the three-team group format.

 

[The Gator]

At least 4 of the 8 CCL groups (and possibly all 8 of them) will be determined on the final matchday. I like the three-team group format.

I've read this 42 times and don't know what it means. #taskergotmehigh

 

[NewlyRetired]

At least 4 of the 8 CCL groups (and possibly all 8 of them) will be determined on the final matchday. I like the three-team group format.

It is a crazy format. It is like a combination of one loss and you are screwed with never being out of it.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

To be fair, Smoov also got over 100+ thumbs up on his comment, too.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

To be fair, Smoov also got over 100+ thumbs up on his comment, too.

Aliases for my multiple personalities.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I don't get the need for promotion/relegation. That seems like an impediment to the ownership investments we need to be a real top league. We have the best of every other sport without it. Agree on ditching single entity.

I disagree - not really advocating for Pro/Rel, but the threat of relegation is an inducement to owner investment in a particular team.

"Lazy" owners do not want relegation, they want equal revenue sharing - low risk investments. Aggressive owners would want the opportunity for higher returns based on performance.

The reality is that it will never happen, but if it did, teams like Salt Lake, KC, and Columbus would be in trouble, as less popular destinations for potential free agents...

 

[T Bell]

I don't get the need for promotion/relegation. That seems like an impediment to the ownership investments we need to be a real top league. We have the best of every other sport without it. Agree on ditching single entity.

I disagree - not really advocating for Pro/Rel, but the threat of relegation is an inducement to owner investment in a particular team.

"Lazy" owners do not want relegation, they want equal revenue sharing - low risk investments. Aggressive owners would want the opportunity for higher returns based on performance.

The reality is that it will never happen, but if it did, teams like Salt Lake, KC, and Columbus would be in trouble, as less popular destinations for potential free agents...

The threat of relegation also keeps a LOT more interest in late season games. There are 2-3x as many interesting or "relevant" games in the last third of the season due to teams being worried about going down.

Only the teams in the ~8-12 range in the table usually have little to play for, i.e. no realistic prospect of moving up into the CL or Europa qualification spots and also no real threat of dropping into relegation danger.

Consequently the overall quality of league play is greatly improved.

 

[Mjolnirs]

It's not the right time for it yet but you can't have a world class league with the bulk of the nation's teams locked into permanent minor league status. We will need viable Rochesters and Nashvilles and Omahas to supplement the powerhouses that can play at a world class level.

we are at earliest 30 years from that happening.

I am not sure people understand just how precarious it is trying to run a lower level soccer team in the US. Teams go out of business constantly. USL Pro is only staying alive due to smartly aligning with MLS to get some funding.

The NASL could easily go out of business in 2-3 years leaving us with no second division.

Most lower level teams play in actual or glorified high school football stadiums.

The infrastructure needed is going to take decades and a ton of public support which we know is not easy. We need almost every lower level team to have a Blackbaud type stadium before any one can even think of promotion relegation imo.

I have never been to the stadium. Am I wrong that it is a nice stadium for a lower division team? From pics it looks nice but I guess that can be deceiving.

No, you are spot on. It is a great stadium when you set aside the inability to shoot the cannon anymore. Just disappointing that it is the exception rather than the rule.

I still miss the cannon.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I don't get the need for promotion/relegation. That seems like an impediment to the ownership investments we need to be a real top league. We have the best of every other sport without it. Agree on ditching single entity.

I disagree - not really advocating for Pro/Rel, but the threat of relegation is an inducement to owner investment in a particular team.

"Lazy" owners do not want relegation, they want equal revenue sharing - low risk investments. Aggressive owners would want the opportunity for higher returns based on performance.

The reality is that it will never happen, but if it did, teams like Salt Lake, KC, and Columbus would be in trouble, as less popular destinations for potential free agents...

yes, if you are an owner in a pro/rel league this is absolutely true.

However, I think Bentley's point was that you would have a very hard time selling that to any new owner who wanted to invest or to any owner who currently is already heavily invested in a non pro/rel league in the US.

I am sure there are some owners who would be fine with it but I have a strong feeling that most owners would rather not take on that added risk especially in a country where soccer is far from the #1 sport.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I don't get the need for promotion/relegation. That seems like an impediment to the ownership investments we need to be a real top league. We have the best of every other sport without it. Agree on ditching single entity.

I disagree - not really advocating for Pro/Rel, but the threat of relegation is an inducement to owner investment in a particular team.

"Lazy" owners do not want relegation, they want equal revenue sharing - low risk investments. Aggressive owners would want the opportunity for higher returns based on performance.

The reality is that it will never happen, but if it did, teams like Salt Lake, KC, and Columbus would be in trouble, as less popular destinations for potential free agents...

The threat of relegation also keeps a LOT more interest in late season games. There are 2-3x as many interesting or "relevant" games in the last third of the season due to teams being worried about going down.

Only the teams in the ~8-12 range in the table usually have little to play for, i.e. no realistic prospect of moving up into the CL or Europa qualification spots and also no real threat of dropping into relegation danger.

Consequently the overall quality of league play is greatly improved.

yeah, I think realistically there are 3 groups of teams in a pro/rel league:

1. Teams competing for a title/continental competition - those teams and fans get to watch a good team every week, and the potential for some great matches when similar teams come in to play.

2. Mid-table teams - outside chance at a good cup run, but no real chance at continental play, or relegation. These fans get to see a competitive team who is favored to win about a third of the games, will be competitive in a third, and fans will get to see a top team come in for a third of the games - so generally speaking a potentially good experience every week.

3. Bottom of the table - these fans do have the benefit of seeing some of the top teams come in and play, they will only be competitive with about a third of the other teams, et best, but they have real "upset potential" over the mid-table teams. And, the end-of-the season race to avoid relegation will keep fans interested/entertained.

 

[guru_007]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

I like it

The only problem it faces is that many teams that are in the competition don't care that they are in it, or more to the point, prefer to bow out so that they can focus on their other aspirations, be it league play or domestic cup, etc...

Spurs threw out a #### lineup yesterday, plain and simple. They didn't even have a shot on target, which doesn't make for the most exciting brand of soccer. But it's a great away to get to see a good club like Red Bull Salzburg, or Celtic - PSV, Everton/Wolfsburg - plenty of other good games on tap for sure.

Europa League is a great way to get your feet wet with other teams throughout Europe. And every now and again you'll get a match with some real bite to it between some teams that don't care for each other (similar to when you are treated to a cup game between some local derbies)

eta - oh and it's also usually a good chance to see your clubs younger/rotation players if you like that sort of thing. I'm not all that interested in seeing other teams younger players (usually), but I certainly wouldn't fault a supporter watching the games to see some up and coming players.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

I like it

The only problem it faces is that many teams that are in the competition don't care that they are in it, or more to the point, prefer to bow out so that they can focus on their other aspirations, be it league play or domestic cup, etc...

Spurs threw out a #### lineup yesterday, plain and simple. They didn't even have a shot on target, which doesn't make for the most exciting brand of soccer. But it's a great away to get to see a good club like Red Bull Salzburg, or Celtic - PSV, Everton/Wolfsburg - plenty of other good games on tap for sure.

Europa League is a great way to get your feet wet with other teams throughout Europe. And every now and again you'll get a match with some real bite to it between some teams that don't care for each other (similar to when you are treated to a cup game between some local derbies)

eta - oh and it's also usually a good chance to see your clubs younger/rotation players if you like that sort of thing. I'm not all that interested in seeing other teams younger players (usually), but I certainly wouldn't fault a supporter watching the games to see some up and coming players.

I disagree - a little. Spurs certainly rotated their starting XI a bit, but that is what good teams are supposed to do - particularly on the road in Serbia. But it was not a #### line-up - they just played like #### in front of the goal.

Lloris and Vertonghen started, I think Fazio and Stambouli will be regulars in the starting xi soon enough, Bentaleb has been in the starting xi for 3 league games this year, although he is probably 4th in the CM-2 rotation. The front 4 were all back-ups, and it showed, but Lamela came on, and Capoue replaced Stambouli late - so there was enough quality that they could have gotten 3 points, if they could pull the trigger in front of the goal.

This year, in particular, the Europa league has an added significance in that the winner automatically qualifies for Champions League next season. Of course the league does not really get serious until the knock-out stage starts next year when the Champions League rejects drop down to Europa. So, right now the goal for teams like Spurs or Everton is just get out of the group stage - but that is still very much the goal, not a throwaway. I don't know how deep Everton is, but they played a regular line-up yesterday - presumably because they were at home, so we'll see how that impacts them this weekend.

 

[NewlyRetired]

It's not the right time for it yet but you can't have a world class league with the bulk of the nation's teams locked into permanent minor league status. We will need viable Rochesters and Nashvilles and Omahas to supplement the powerhouses that can play at a world class level.

we are at earliest 30 years from that happening.

I am not sure people understand just how precarious it is trying to run a lower level soccer team in the US. Teams go out of business constantly. USL Pro is only staying alive due to smartly aligning with MLS to get some funding.

The NASL could easily go out of business in 2-3 years leaving us with no second division.

Most lower level teams play in actual or glorified high school football stadiums.

The infrastructure needed is going to take decades and a ton of public support which we know is not easy. We need almost every lower level team to have a Blackbaud type stadium before any one can even think of promotion relegation imo.

I have never been to the stadium. Am I wrong that it is a nice stadium for a lower division team? From pics it looks nice but I guess that can be deceiving.

No, you are spot on. It is a great stadium when you set aside the inability to shoot the cannon anymore. Just disappointing that it is the exception rather than the rule.

I still miss the cannon.

What is the story here? Did neighbors complain about the noise?

 

[Jaysus]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

I like it

The only problem it faces is that many teams that are in the competition don't care that they are in it, or more to the point, prefer to bow out so that they can focus on their other aspirations, be it league play or domestic cup, etc...

Spurs threw out a #### lineup yesterday, plain and simple. They didn't even have a shot on target, which doesn't make for the most exciting brand of soccer. But it's a great away to get to see a good club like Red Bull Salzburg, or Celtic - PSV, Everton/Wolfsburg - plenty of other good games on tap for sure.

Europa League is a great way to get your feet wet with other teams throughout Europe. And every now and again you'll get a match with some real bite to it between some teams that don't care for each other (similar to when you are treated to a cup game between some local derbies)

eta - oh and it's also usually a good chance to see your clubs younger/rotation players if you like that sort of thing. I'm not all that interested in seeing other teams younger players (usually), but I certainly wouldn't fault a supporter watching the games to see some up and coming players.

I disagree - a little. Spurs certainly rotated their starting XI a bit, but that is what good teams are supposed to do - particularly on the road in Serbia. But it was not a #### line-up - they just played like #### in front of the goal.

Lloris and Vertonghen started, I think Fazio and Stambouli will be regulars in the starting xi soon enough, Bentaleb has been in the starting xi for 3 league games this year, although he is probably 4th in the CM-2 rotation. The front 4 were all back-ups, and it showed, but Lamela came on, and Capoue replaced Stambouli late - so there was enough quality that they could have gotten 3 points, if they could pull the trigger in front of the goal.

This year, in particular, the Europa league has an added significance in that the winner automatically qualifies for Champions League next season. Of course the league does not really get serious until the knock-out stage starts next year when the Champions League rejects drop down to Europa. So, right now the goal for teams like Spurs or Everton is just get out of the group stage - but that is still very much the goal, not a throwaway. I don't know how deep Everton is, but they played a regular line-up yesterday - presumably because they were at home, so we'll see how that impacts them this weekend.

What kind of playing time has Davies seen for spurs so far?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

I like it

The only problem it faces is that many teams that are in the competition don't care that they are in it, or more to the point, prefer to bow out so that they can focus on their other aspirations, be it league play or domestic cup, etc...

Spurs threw out a #### lineup yesterday, plain and simple. They didn't even have a shot on target, which doesn't make for the most exciting brand of soccer. But it's a great away to get to see a good club like Red Bull Salzburg, or Celtic - PSV, Everton/Wolfsburg - plenty of other good games on tap for sure.

Europa League is a great way to get your feet wet with other teams throughout Europe. And every now and again you'll get a match with some real bite to it between some teams that don't care for each other (similar to when you are treated to a cup game between some local derbies)

eta - oh and it's also usually a good chance to see your clubs younger/rotation players if you like that sort of thing. I'm not all that interested in seeing other teams younger players (usually), but I certainly wouldn't fault a supporter watching the games to see some up and coming players.

I disagree - a little. Spurs certainly rotated their starting XI a bit, but that is what good teams are supposed to do - particularly on the road in Serbia. But it was not a #### line-up - they just played like #### in front of the goal.

Lloris and Vertonghen started, I think Fazio and Stambouli will be regulars in the starting xi soon enough, Bentaleb has been in the starting xi for 3 league games this year, although he is probably 4th in the CM-2 rotation. The front 4 were all back-ups, and it showed, but Lamela came on, and Capoue replaced Stambouli late - so there was enough quality that they could have gotten 3 points, if they could pull the trigger in front of the goal.

This year, in particular, the Europa league has an added significance in that the winner automatically qualifies for Champions League next season. Of course the league does not really get serious until the knock-out stage starts next year when the Champions League rejects drop down to Europa. So, right now the goal for teams like Spurs or Everton is just get out of the group stage - but that is still very much the goal, not a throwaway. I don't know how deep Everton is, but they played a regular line-up yesterday - presumably because they were at home, so we'll see how that impacts them this weekend.

What kind of playing time has Davies seen for spurs so far?

He has really only played in Europa - came on for a cameo against liverpool when Rose had a knock. He'll play in the cup games coming up.

I'd say he is clearly behind Rose right now - a bit of an uneven performance yesterday. Really they are two different players - Rose is more of an attacking fullback, while Davies is more defensive - but Davies has not been a sure-footed on the defensive end, and has had a few cheap give-aways that makes you nervous when he is in there.

He'll get an opportunity to overtake Rose, but he'll have to play better to do it. He is a much better option if Rose gets hurt than Spurs had last year, and he is still young enough that he'll still have a chance to be a regular in his career at Spurs.

 

[T Bell]

I don't get the need for promotion/relegation. That seems like an impediment to the ownership investments we need to be a real top league. We have the best of every other sport without it. Agree on ditching single entity.

I disagree - not really advocating for Pro/Rel, but the threat of relegation is an inducement to owner investment in a particular team.

"Lazy" owners do not want relegation, they want equal revenue sharing - low risk investments. Aggressive owners would want the opportunity for higher returns based on performance.

The reality is that it will never happen, but if it did, teams like Salt Lake, KC, and Columbus would be in trouble, as less popular destinations for potential free agents...

The threat of relegation also keeps a LOT more interest in late season games. There are 2-3x as many interesting or "relevant" games in the last third of the season due to teams being worried about going down.

Only the teams in the ~8-12 range in the table usually have little to play for, i.e. no realistic prospect of moving up into the CL or Europa qualification spots and also no real threat of dropping into relegation danger.

Consequently the overall quality of league play is greatly improved.

yeah, I think realistically there are 3 groups of teams in a pro/rel league:

1. Teams competing for a title/continental competition - those teams and fans get to watch a good team every week, and the potential for some great matches when similar teams come in to play.

2. Mid-table teams - outside chance at a good cup run, but no real chance at continental play, or relegation. These fans get to see a competitive team who is favored to win about a third of the games, will be competitive in a third, and fans will get to see a top team come in for a third of the games - so generally speaking a potentially good experience every week.

3. Bottom of the table - these fans do have the benefit of seeing some of the top teams come in and play, they will only be competitive with about a third of the other teams, et best, but they have real "upset potential" over the mid-table teams. And, the end-of-the season race to avoid relegation will keep fans interested/entertained.

Absolutely. Also, the teams in groups 2 and 3 often have members who do quite well in the domestic cups because they aren't stretched thin with continental cup games and the fixture congestion that goes with that. That's how teams like Cardiff, Wigan, Hull, Stoke, etc. can end up in the League Cup and FA finals as they have in recent years.

It also bears mentioning that teams desperate to avoid relegation can be nightmares to play against in March, April and May. Wigan, before they were (finally) relegated, were notorious giant-killers under Roberto Martinez late in the season during their seemingly inevitable survival runs. No top team looks forward to playing against such an opponent.

 

[AAABatteries]

To be fair, Smoov also got over 100+ thumbs up on his comment, too.

I don't say this often, but I agree with Smoovy - the difference being I wouldn't even bother to read or respond to a MLS poll/article. I may change my tune once the Atlanta franchise starts playing.

 

[Kafka]

Unpopular though this opinion may be with some of my fellow futbollers; I like the Europa League. When else am I going to get to see how wild a Serbian crowd can be on a Thursday night? I would have loved to see a Spurs win, but I kinda think the Serb supporters were the MOTM today.

I like it The only problem it faces is that many teams that are in the competition don't care that they are in it, or more to the point, prefer to bow out so that they can focus on their other aspirations, be it league play or domestic cup, etc...

Spurs threw out a #### lineup yesterday, plain and simple. They didn't even have a shot on target, which doesn't make for the most exciting brand of soccer. But it's a great away to get to see a good club like Red Bull Salzburg, or Celtic - PSV, Everton/Wolfsburg - plenty of other good games on tap for sure.

Europa League is a great way to get your feet wet with other teams throughout Europe. And every now and again you'll get a match with some real bite to it between some teams that don't care for each other (similar to when you are treated to a cup game between some local derbies)

eta - oh and it's also usually a good chance to see your clubs younger/rotation players if you like that sort of thing. I'm not all that interested in seeing other teams younger players (usually), but I certainly wouldn't fault a supporter watching the games to see some up and coming players.

I disagree - a little. Spurs certainly rotated their starting XI a bit, but that is what good teams are supposed to do - particularly on the road in Serbia. But it was not a #### line-up - they just played like #### in front of the goal.

Lloris and Vertonghen started, I think Fazio and Stambouli will be regulars in the starting xi soon enough, Bentaleb has been in the starting xi for 3 league games this year, although he is probably 4th in the CM-2 rotation. The front 4 were all back-ups, and it showed, but Lamela came on, and Capoue replaced Stambouli late - so there was enough quality that they could have gotten 3 points, if they could pull the trigger in front of the goal.

This year, in particular, the Europa league has an added significance in that the winner automatically qualifies for Champions League next season. Of course the league does not really get serious until the knock-out stage starts next year when the Champions League rejects drop down to Europa. So, right now the goal for teams like Spurs or Everton is just get out of the group stage - but that is still very much the goal, not a throwaway. I don't know how deep Everton is, but they played a regular line-up yesterday - presumably because they were at home, so we'll see how that impacts them this weekend.

Even with Roma's current form/change of direction....I still miss Lamela...the potential is definitely there.

 

[NewlyRetired]

To be fair, Smoov also got over 100+ thumbs up on his comment, too.

I don't say this often, but I agree with Smoovy - the difference being I wouldn't even bother to read or respond to a MLS poll/article. I may change my tune once the Atlanta franchise starts playing.

The need to bash things you don't like has always been so foreign to me.

Your method makes more sense.

 

[Mjolnirs]

No, you are spot on. It is a great stadium when you set aside the inability to shoot the cannon anymore. Just disappointing that it is the exception rather than the rule.

I still miss the cannon.

What is the story here? Did neighbors complain about the noise?

Noise Ordinance. The Battery originally played at Stoney Field which is an old high school field on the peninsula. It's actually right across the street from Johnson-Hagood, where The Citadel plays.Blackbaud is on Daniel Island, which was a newly opened area for development at the time. It's a pretty pretentious place and even though the stadium isn't near any housing, the rule stands.

I personally think it was just an excuse the management used to stop doing it. When you consider there were people dressed in Confederate uniforms manning the cannon, I think they didn't fight it very hard in the name of political correctness. Just my opinion though.

 

[CBusAlex]

We're not gonna have an American styled closed league here that's ever gonna be worth a damn. We don't have to copy everyone else exactly but you have to give people two things: great teams to watch and hope.

What hope do any teams in Spain or in many other leagues across Europe have outside of same the top 3 teams year after year after year?

The top division isn't the only division. I'm sorry but I'm not supporting any more cartels, even one that is bringing the great game to our country.

Yeah, pro/rel is great if your league's finances are so out of whack that the vast majority of teams' only hope is to just stay in the top 17 for a few years at a time. I sincerely hope that MLS never reaches that point.

 

[The Gator]

We're not gonna have an American styled closed league here that's ever gonna be worth a damn. We don't have to copy everyone else exactly but you have to give people two things: great teams to watch and hope.

What hope do any teams in Spain or in many other leagues across Europe have outside of same the top 3 teams year after year after year?

Ever watch the Championship run in and playoffs?

 

[roadkill1292]

Having viable lower divisions is critical to building and maintaining a fundamental bedrock of support for soccer in this country And viable means having success means something other than a pat on the head and a cheery "let's do it all over again!"

MLS can't be another NFL with two dozen teams being the only ones that matter. Locking everyone else out is not a formula for long term success, except for the checkbooks of the fortunate 24 franchise owners. We should want more here.

 

[NewlyRetired]

We're not gonna have an American styled closed league here that's ever gonna be worth a damn. We don't have to copy everyone else exactly but you have to give people two things: great teams to watch and hope.

What hope do any teams in Spain or in many other leagues across Europe have outside of same the top 3 teams year after year after year?

Ever watch the Championship run in and playoffs?

yes, I really enjoy the playoff system that England and Germany use (I know they are slightly different but I enjoy both).

But hoping to some how claw your way to the top division just to watch your team yo-yo back in a year and hoping that your team can win the league are two very different things in my mind.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Having viable lower divisions is critical to building and maintaining a fundamental bedrock of support for soccer in this country And viable means having success means something other than a pat on the head and a cheery "let's do it all over again!"

MLS can't be another NFL with two dozen teams being the only ones that matter. Locking everyone else out is not a formula for long term success, except for the checkbooks of the fortunate 24 franchise owners. We should want more here.

I see your point and I don't think too many would argue with it at the heart of it but I think most people are just trying to explain that it will never realistically happen.

If that keeps you from watching your own domestic league, that is a shame but I don't see the owners of MLS ever giving in to pro/rel. The article I posted was pretty clear about that.

 

[Slapdash]

I remember being in Córdoba when they were promoted to the 2nd Division 7 years ago. They whole city was excited and partying on the streets. This year they are playing in the 1st division after finishing 7th and winning the playoff. When they scored the winning goal, fans invaded the pitch. Promotion/regulation is very exciting.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I remember being in Córdoba when they were promoted to the 2nd Division 7 years ago. They whole city was excited and partying on the streets. This year they are playing in the 1st division after finishing 7th and winning the playoff. When they scored the winning goal, fans invaded the pitch. Promotion/regulation is very exciting.

While I agree with the sentiment - I think many european towns/cities identify with their club the way many Americans might identify with their college. Not many people are as passionate about their professional sports teams.

I think another thing that hurt the "american" version is the geography - nobody is close enough to develop the rivalries you see in European leagues. England, with the size of about Louisiana, has 92 teams in the top-4 divisions. Traveling fans in the PL are the expectation - whether its a Derby across town, or across the country.

I can't think of any rivalry right now, outside of Seattle - Portland that is anywhere close enough where fans would travel in numbers.

 

[CBusAlex]

Having viable lower divisions is critical to building and maintaining a fundamental bedrock of support for soccer in this country

This might have been true back in ye olden days when the only way for most people to see a game was to ride their god#### horse to the stadium, but that's not the world we live in anymore. People in Wichita don't need a Wichita FC to be soccer fans, any more than they need an NFL team there to be football fans. We have televisions now. They can watch Kansas City. They can even drive there in their cars if they want to.

 

[Slapdash]

I remember being in Córdoba when they were promoted to the 2nd Division 7 years ago. They whole city was excited and partying on the streets. This year they are playing in the 1st division after finishing 7th and winning the playoff. When they scored the winning goal, fans invaded the pitch. Promotion/regulation is very exciting.

While I agree with the sentiment - I think many european towns/cities identify with their club the way many Americans might identify with their college. Not many people are as passionate about their professional sports teams.I think another thing that hurt the "american" version is the geography - nobody is close enough to develop the rivalries you see in European leagues. England, with the size of about Louisiana, has 92 teams in the top-4 divisions. Traveling fans in the PL are the expectation - whether its a Derby across town, or across the country.

I can't think of any rivalry right now, outside of Seattle - Portland that is anywhere close enough where fans would travel in numbers.

A fair point. However, #### Wilmington.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

To be fair, Smoov also got over 100+ thumbs up on his comment, too.

I don't say this often, but I agree with Smoovy - the difference being I wouldn't even bother to read or respond to a MLS poll/article. I may change my tune once the Atlanta franchise starts playing.

The need to bash things you don't like has always been so foreign to me.

Your method makes more sense.

I honestly didn't mean to bash it. But, like I said, I can come across as caustic sometimes.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I remember being in Córdoba when they were promoted to the 2nd Division 7 years ago. They whole city was excited and partying on the streets. This year they are playing in the 1st division after finishing 7th and winning the playoff. When they scored the winning goal, fans invaded the pitch. Promotion/regulation is very exciting.

While I agree with the sentiment - I think many european towns/cities identify with their club the way many Americans might identify with their college. Not many people are as passionate about their professional sports teams.I think another thing that hurt the "american" version is the geography - nobody is close enough to develop the rivalries you see in European leagues. England, with the size of about Louisiana, has 92 teams in the top-4 divisions. Traveling fans in the PL are the expectation - whether its a Derby across town, or across the country.

I can't think of any rivalry right now, outside of Seattle - Portland that is anywhere close enough where fans would travel in numbers.

A fair point. However, #### Wilmington.

They have no passion!