***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (2 Viewers)

[T Bell]

Another good thing to know is that near the beginning of World Cup qualifying, an article got written in SI where a bunch of players blasted Klinsmann for being clueless re: tactics, style of play, etc. Since then, they've looked great. They also switched to a 4-2-3-1 counter-attacking style and away from a 4-3-3 ball possession style, which was a good move all the way around.

And wa la, US is now in good shape to qualify for the WC.

Lots of Americans are now in the EPL, Dempsey plays for Tottenham, Edu, Shea and Cameron play for Stoke, Howard plays for Everton, Altidore plays for Sunderland as of a couple days ago. Bradley plays for Roma, but the Italian league is boring and completely corrupt. There's also an American kid in Barca's youth system, which is like a Mongolian getting a football scholarship to Alabama.

I'm a ways away from understanding the bolded. But is that like going from a 4-3 to 3-4 or is it like going from a West Coast to Power I type thing?

A 4-3-3 style tends to assume that you've got the most talented team and can dictate play, and that you can pick your matchups on the field to exploit. Also, this relies upon a lot of ability between the front 6 players to rotate freely with each other as opportunities arise. This style of play in this formation was essentially invented by the Dutch 40 years ago and called "Total Football". All six of those forward players could end up in front of goal in a scoring opportunity. Tellingly, that 1970's Dutch team was probably the best team never to win the World Cup (they lost in the final in both 1974 and 1978), and the Dutch as a nation produce some of the most technically gifted footballers in the world. We're not the Dutch.

By contrast, a 4-2-3-1 plays farther back, with 2 midfielders "holding" play in the midfield and only rarely putting themselves all the way into the attack. Their primary role is to stay in front of their defenders and try to tackle, regain possession and then quickly deliver the ball to one of the four players in front of them on a counter-attack, hopefully catching the other team too far forward on the break with speedy players. It's the same idea as scoring on the break in basketball.

In short, the 4-2-3-1 only typically puts 4 men into the attack and doesn't allow as much freedom for players to switch places on the field as opportunities arise. It's a "safer" and mroe conservative formation to play, and it doesn't require superior technical skills or the unbelievable amount of unspoken, shared understanding of the system that players need to switch back and forth like they do in the 4-3-3.*

*One more note about those 1970's Dutch teams that played the 4-3-3 - most of those players also played together in the same system for the club Ajax, which greatly helped their ability to perform so well in that system for the national team.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Another good thing to know is that near the beginning of World Cup qualifying, an article got written in SI where a bunch of players blasted Klinsmann for being clueless re: tactics, style of play, etc. Since then, they've looked great. They also switched to a 4-2-3-1 counter-attacking style and away from a 4-3-3 ball possession style, which was a good move all the way around.

And wa la, US is now in good shape to qualify for the WC.

Lots of Americans are now in the EPL, Dempsey plays for Tottenham, Edu, Shea and Cameron play for Stoke, Howard plays for Everton, Altidore plays for Sunderland as of a couple days ago. Bradley plays for Roma, but the Italian league is boring and completely corrupt. There's also an American kid in Barca's youth system, which is like a Mongolian getting a football scholarship to Alabama.

I'm a ways away from understanding the bolded. But is that like going from a 4-3 to 3-4 or is it like going from a West Coast to Power I type thing?

A 4-3-3 style tends to assume that you've got the most talented team and can dictate play, and that you can pick your matchups on the field to exploit. Also, this relies upon a lot of ability between the front 6 players to rotate freely with each other as opportunities arise. This style of play in this formation was essentially invented by the Dutch 40 years ago and called "Total Football". All six of those forward players could end up in front of goal in a scoring opportunity. Tellingly, that 1970's Dutch team was probably the best team never to win the World Cup (they lost in the final in both 1974 and 1978), and the Dutch as a nation produce some of the most technically gifted footballers in the world. We're not the Dutch.

By contrast, a 4-2-3-1 plays farther back, with 2 midfielders "holding" play in the midfield and only rarely putting themselves all the way into the attack. Their primary role is to stay in front of their defenders and try to tackle, regain possession and then quickly deliver the ball to one of the four players in front of them on a counter-attack, hopefully catching the other team too far forward on the break with speedy players. It's the same idea as scoring on the break in basketball.

In short, the 4-2-3-1 only typically puts 4 men into the attack and doesn't allow as much freedom for players to switch places on the field as opportunities arise. It's a "safer" and mroe conservative formation to play, and it doesn't require superior technical skills or the unbelievable amount of unspoken, shared understanding of the system that players need to switch back and forth like they do in the 4-3-3.*

*One more note about those 1970's Dutch teams that played the 4-3-3 - most of those players also played together in the same system for the club Ajax, which greatly helped their ability to perform so well in that system for the national team.

A good NFL equivalent of the 4-3-3/possession-based style is the Patriots. Lots of short passes, very timing-based. Hard to pull off, but when it works its devastating.

Which doesn't mean that the 4-2-3-1 has a low-ceiling or anything. Bayern crushed everyone this year playing a 4-2-3-1.

zonalmarking.net is a really good page for formation/tactics.

 

[strykerpks]

Word. Thanks again!

 

[Sebowski]

I forgot to dvr the game...

How was the crowd?

 

[Tremendous Upside]

I thought Shea looked pretty good as well, given his form over the past year or so

 

[Christo]

I guess I shouldn't have gone to bed at the half.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Word. Thanks again!

I don't know your level of knowledge of the game, but since it wasn't mentioned in the various posts about formations above:

The numbers you see are basically defenders-midfielders-forwards. As you see from the explanations, the mid numbers can be broken down further.

4-2-3-1

4-3-3

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

[soccer pedant]

In truth, a "4-2-3-1" is virtually identical to an "Ajax 4-3-3" when you line it up on on a white board. Both have a CF. Both have two flank players. And both have a central midfield triangle with two players at the base and one at the tip playing behind the CF.

Last night, if anything, the big tactical switch was to something like a 4-4-2 (or a 4-2-2-2 if we're going with our new school formation naming conventions). Whereas the US started out with Corona playing behind Gomez and Donovan on the right, Donovan moved to the center and stayed just as high as Gomez. While Corona was given freedom to roam inside behind the strikers or out to the right flank. That was the tactical move that really opened up the game, as it kept the Guatemalan centerbacks occupied while the flank players could draw the fullbacks inside and outside at will. Donovan said in his interview that it was the result of a touchline conversation with JK and Klinsmann definitely deserves some credit for showing the flexibility to adjust his tactics on the fly.

I don't think the US system has changed that much, but I do think that Klinsmann is somewhat more flexible with his personnel choices and tactics than Bradley. While Klinsmann started the game with Beckerman sitting in front of the back four (which had some mixed results because Kyle and Torres' distribution was VERY sloppy in the first 30 minutes), he also clearly intended to let go without a designated #6 in the second half. JK also deserves credit of picking a team with a lot of creative players. Beckerman is the only natural pure holding midfielder to make the team.

I don't think the system has changed all that much. On the road and against better teams, JK is going to ask someone to play as a dedicated #6. Against weaker teams in lower pressure situations, I think he's going to want to get the team more used to playing a double-pivot in CM and allowing those midfielders more freedom.

It's obviously hard to accurately judge the performance. Holden looked great at the end, but I was most impressed with how he started because the Guatemalan midfield hadn't given up by then. Holden started the half doing a very credible Michael Bradley impression. Staying active to receive the ball. Dribbling up to the first line of four and committing the defender, and then confidently making the right pass to initiate an offensive move. After the game got out of hand, Holden was then allowed to sit back and spray balls to the flanks at will. Certainly impressive, but not an opportunity I expect him to have all that often.

I feel somewhat bad for Mix because on any other day, he would have been the revelation. With the caveat that he wasn't needed to protect the back four, he did a great job staying active, showing for the ball, and playing positive moves that put the Guatemalans on the defensive. The big loser last night was probably Sacha, because two guys showed the capability to really challenge his role.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

BTW, watching the French U-20 game and I can't help feeling that Arsenal singed Sanogo with the intention of making Gooners wistful for the clinical finishing of Gervinho.

 

[T Bell]

BTW, watching the French U-20 game and I can't help feeling that Arsenal singed Sanogo with the intention of making Gooners wistful for the clinical finishing of Gervinho.

And the physical fitness of Diaby.

 

[T Bell]

Brazil is clearly having fun with this Confed Cup win. NOTE: GIF image is definitely NSFW

 

[Christo]

 

[The Gator]

Whoa

 

[The Z Machine]

Yikes

 

[The Z Machine]

I was talking about Uzbekistan U20. Right...

 

[T Bell]

Think of it like an editorial cartoon.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I was talking about Uzbekistan U20. Right...

How the hell did they make the quarters.

Pretty decent chance that all three other members of the US group make the semis. That's a Group of Death.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Brazil is clearly having fun with this Confed Cup win. NOTE: GIF image is definitely NSFW

I think she was in "The Full 90". [/RaiderNation]

 

[dparker713]

[soccer pedant]

In truth, a "4-2-3-1" is virtually identical to an "Ajax 4-3-3" when you line it up on on a white board. Both have a CF. Both have two flank players. And both have a central midfield triangle with two players at the base and one at the tip playing behind the CF.

Last night, if anything, the big tactical switch was to something like a 4-4-2 (or a 4-2-2-2 if we're going with our new school formation naming conventions). Whereas the US started out with Corona playing behind Gomez and Donovan on the right, Donovan moved to the center and stayed just as high as Gomez. While Corona was given freedom to roam inside behind the strikers or out to the right flank. That was the tactical move that really opened up the game, as it kept the Guatemalan centerbacks occupied while the flank players could draw the fullbacks inside and outside at will. Donovan said in his interview that it was the result of a touchline conversation with JK and Klinsmann definitely deserves some credit for showing the flexibility to adjust his tactics on the fly.

I don't think the US system has changed that much, but I do think that Klinsmann is somewhat more flexible with his personnel choices and tactics than Bradley. While Klinsmann started the game with Beckerman sitting in front of the back four (which had some mixed results because Kyle and Torres' distribution was VERY sloppy in the first 30 minutes), he also clearly intended to let go without a designated #6 in the second half. JK also deserves credit of picking a team with a lot of creative players. Beckerman is the only natural pure holding midfielder to make the team.

I don't think the system has changed all that much. On the road and against better teams, JK is going to ask someone to play as a dedicated #6. Against weaker teams in lower pressure situations, I think he's going to want to get the team more used to playing a double-pivot in CM and allowing those midfielders more freedom.

It's obviously hard to accurately judge the performance. Holden looked great at the end, but I was most impressed with how he started because the Guatemalan midfield hadn't given up by then. Holden started the half doing a very credible Michael Bradley impression. Staying active to receive the ball. Dribbling up to the first line of four and committing the defender, and then confidently making the right pass to initiate an offensive move. After the game got out of hand, Holden was then allowed to sit back and spray balls to the flanks at will. Certainly impressive, but not an opportunity I expect him to have all that often.

I feel somewhat bad for Mix because on any other day, he would have been the revelation. With the caveat that he wasn't needed to protect the back four, he did a great job staying active, showing for the ball, and playing positive moves that put the Guatemalans on the defensive. The big loser last night was probably Sacha, because two guys showed the capability to really challenge his role.

I think where Klinsman has changed the team the most is the backline. They play higher and are expected to play with the ball at their feet much more. Also, he's tried to up the tempo when we're trying to break down a bunker. But yeah, the tactics are fairly similar.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Uhhh...

Last Sunday, an amateur soccer match in Brazil came to an unbelievably gruesome end when a referee was murdered by outraged fans. His head was then cut off and placed on a spike. The beheading was retaliation; the ref initially stabbed a player to death.

Full story.

 

[T Bell]

Uhhh...

Last Sunday, an amateur soccer match in Brazil came to an unbelievably gruesome end when a referee was murdered by outraged fans. His head was then cut off and placed on a spike. The beheading was retaliation; the ref initially stabbed a player to death.

Full story.

SRS BSNS

 

[The Gator]

"who then took out a knife he was carrying with him during the match"

 

[T Bell]

"who then took out a knife he was carrying with him during the match"

I think we can now see why he felt that was necessary.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

"who then took out a knife he was carrying with him during the match"

I'd like to look at the referee's book.

# 9 -- yellow

#11 -- yellow

#17 -- shiv

 

[T Bell]

"who then took out a knife he was carrying with him during the match"

I'd like to look at the referee's book.

# 9 -- yellow

#11 -- yellow

#17 -- shiv

You know every time he reached for his pocket people got nervous.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

I watched this for about as long as I watched the MLS game that's on right now.

 

[Mjolnirs]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

I hit record to watch it later. At one point I saw that it was 4-4 in the first half. Evidently Messi doesn't have any friends that are defenders.

 

[Slapdash]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

I hit record to watch it later. At one point I saw that it was 4-4 in the first half. Evidently Messi doesn't have any friends that are defenders.

Well he has spent his life playing with Barcelona and Argentina. Not a lot to choose from.

But the point of these is to score a lot of goals.

 

[T Bell]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

 

[Good Posting Judge]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

 

[Slapdash]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

It's for charity.

 

[T Bell]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

It's for charity.

The charity apparently consisting of entertainment for people too stupid not to part with $80 to watch some lousy soccer.

 

[Slapdash]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

It's for charity.

The charity apparently consisting of entertainment for people too stupid not to part with $80 to watch some lousy soccer.

Always impressed with the level of cynicism on display in the FFA

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

It's for charity.

The charity apparently consisting of entertainment for people too stupid not to part with $80 to watch some lousy soccer.

Always impressed with the level of cynicism on display in the FFA

Whatever his motives, the slapdash nature of this event did not reflect well on the "Messi brand." As Taylor and Alexi pointed out, it's very, very hard to imagine the cancellation in LA and the no-shows of so many players who were meant to feature happening to an event run for Beckham.

And Messi leaving the field with twenty minutes left and just leaving the stadium was weird.

I don't mind that the quality of the play sucked. I expected that. And the Northwestern kids actually added a bit of a nice touch. Although I guess it was a mixed bag for ol NU with Eliason having two fine goals but one defender falling on his ### when Messi Cruyuff turned him and scored.

 

[Christo]

ESPN trying to tell me that there's nothing hotter in Chicago right now than the FIRE!

I guess ESPN didn't hear about the Blackhawks winning the Stanley Cup.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Lol nice shot/cross from Zusi there for the goal. Definitely a cross.

 

[Christo]

Nyarko looks like he's already gassed.

 

[Christo]

We've got ourselves a game, boys!

FIRE!​

 

[T Bell]

[soccer pedant]

In truth, a "4-2-3-1" is virtually identical to an "Ajax 4-3-3" when you line it up on on a white board. Both have a CF. Both have two flank players. And both have a central midfield triangle with two players at the base and one at the tip playing behind the CF.

Last night, if anything, the big tactical switch was to something like a 4-4-2 (or a 4-2-2-2 if we're going with our new school formation naming conventions). Whereas the US started out with Corona playing behind Gomez and Donovan on the right, Donovan moved to the center and stayed just as high as Gomez. While Corona was given freedom to roam inside behind the strikers or out to the right flank. That was the tactical move that really opened up the game, as it kept the Guatemalan centerbacks occupied while the flank players could draw the fullbacks inside and outside at will. Donovan said in his interview that it was the result of a touchline conversation with JK and Klinsmann definitely deserves some credit for showing the flexibility to adjust his tactics on the fly.

I don't think the US system has changed that much, but I do think that Klinsmann is somewhat more flexible with his personnel choices and tactics than Bradley. While Klinsmann started the game with Beckerman sitting in front of the back four (which had some mixed results because Kyle and Torres' distribution was VERY sloppy in the first 30 minutes), he also clearly intended to let go without a designated #6 in the second half. JK also deserves credit of picking a team with a lot of creative players. Beckerman is the only natural pure holding midfielder to make the team.

I don't think the system has changed all that much. On the road and against better teams, JK is going to ask someone to play as a dedicated #6. Against weaker teams in lower pressure situations, I think he's going to want to get the team more used to playing a double-pivot in CM and allowing those midfielders more freedom.

It's obviously hard to accurately judge the performance. Holden looked great at the end, but I was most impressed with how he started because the Guatemalan midfield hadn't given up by then. Holden started the half doing a very credible Michael Bradley impression. Staying active to receive the ball. Dribbling up to the first line of four and committing the defender, and then confidently making the right pass to initiate an offensive move. After the game got out of hand, Holden was then allowed to sit back and spray balls to the flanks at will. Certainly impressive, but not an opportunity I expect him to have all that often.

I feel somewhat bad for Mix because on any other day, he would have been the revelation. With the caveat that he wasn't needed to protect the back four, he did a great job staying active, showing for the ball, and playing positive moves that put the Guatemalans on the defensive. The big loser last night was probably Sacha, because two guys showed the capability to really challenge his role.

Formation is only one ingredient of general game play, others being tactics, philosophy, and individual talent and matchups. I agree that most modern teams don't have players rigidly sticking to position as was done 50+ years ago on most teams, and that as a consequence means that formation means a bit less as a descriptor than it used to.

Still, I don't really agree that a 4-2-3-1 is essentially the same as a 4-3-3. The former implies a deeper formation and more defensive play than the latter does, and does so by specifying two players in the holding/defensive midfield role while the latter not only doesn't specify any such thing, its history as a descriptor has tended to be used for more attacking teams. Said another way, while the 4-3-3 can mean you've got 2 DM's, it can mean a large number of other things and typically does not mean that.

 

[Slapdash]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

It's for charity.

The charity apparently consisting of entertainment for people too stupid not to part with $80 to watch some lousy soccer.

Always impressed with the level of cynicism on display in the FFA

Whatever his motives, the slapdash nature of this event did not reflect well on the "Messi brand." As Taylor and Alexi pointed out, it's very, very hard to imagine the cancellation in LA and the no-shows of so many players who were meant to feature happening to an event run for Beckham.

And Messi leaving the field with twenty minutes left and just leaving the stadium was weird.

I don't mind that the quality of the play sucked. I expected that. And the Northwestern kids actually added a bit of a nice touch. Although I guess it was a mixed bag for ol NU with Eliason having two fine goals but one defender falling on his ### when Messi Cruyuff turned him and scored.

Yeah, it sounds like there are quite a few issues going on with this promoter/organizer. I've read the foundation wasn't getting the money it should from the South American matches. Messi has been doing these for years now, hopefully his crew hires someone to get them back on track.

 

[Christo]

De Jong - He chose Canada over Holland.

Read: Ain't got no chance with Holland.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

OK, Messi & Friends has mostly been a crime against the sport and nature, but it was kind of cool seeing the Northwestern kid ride the bike.

Could a bull#### money grab ever be more obvious than this venture?

Taxes don't pay themselves.

It's for charity.

The charity apparently consisting of entertainment for people too stupid not to part with $80 to watch some lousy soccer.

Always impressed with the level of cynicism on display in the FFA

Whatever his motives, the slapdash nature of this event did not reflect well on the "Messi brand." As Taylor and Alexi pointed out, it's very, very hard to imagine the cancellation in LA and the no-shows of so many players who were meant to feature happening to an event run for Beckham.

And Messi leaving the field with twenty minutes left and just leaving the stadium was weird.

I don't mind that the quality of the play sucked. I expected that. And the Northwestern kids actually added a bit of a nice touch. Although I guess it was a mixed bag for ol NU with Eliason having two fine goals but one defender falling on his ### when Messi Cruyuff turned him and scored.

Yeah, it sounds like there are quite a few issues going on with this promoter/organizer. I've read the foundation wasn't getting the money it should from the South American matches. Messi has been doing these for years now, hopefully his crew hires someone to get them back on track.

I watched the one in Miami last year. The cancellation of the LA match was funny because they were running some truly hysterical television ads for it. "It's not an exhibition. It's not a friendly. It's the greatest concentration of soccer talent of all time!"*

On another note, the Ghana/Chile U-20 game today was great fun. Shame to see Chile lose on a bad defensive mistake in the last 90 seconds of extra time, but Ghana deserved it, getting something like 22 shots on goal for the game. It was end to end madness for 120 minutes.

 

[Christo]

Martinique!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

LOLAmericasHat

 

[Christo]

Ooh, goody. Gus AND Cobi!

 

[Christo]

Panama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[T Bell]

Panama!

FU El Tri.

 

[Christo]

BS non-call. Should have been a second penalty for Panama.

 

[T Bell]

BS non-call. Should have been a second penalty for Panama.

The only reason it wasn't called was the first penalty. I'd say there's a mismatch over there.