***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (2 Viewers)

[Good Posting Judge]

Arsenal's taken them for a ride, the ONLY exception being Cesc who was bought for what is probably fair money. Alex Song for 15M?

You need to spend at least that much for a good defensive mid these days.

17 million Euro for Alex Hleb too. 19 appearances for Barca....approx. 895,000 Euro per appearance. He was a stud for Arsenal for the year or two before that move, too. Barca is the place where Arsenal players go to die.

Henry did pretty well..

He only scored 35 goals in 80 league games over three seasons, and all that for a guy they paid over 20M for. Another one in the long line was Emmanuel Petit in 2001 for 7M. Like Song, he was a DM who was moved back to play CB and he was pretty ineffective there and not worth the money, though they recouped it in their transfer to Chelsea the following year.

This interview with Petit, although bizarrely done, is pretty interesting for what it says about how Barca handles players. Barca would seem to be a meat grinder for transfer talent.

Barcelona has spent 430 million net euros in the transfer business over the last decade. That is about 180 million less than Real Madrid, incidently. That is an outrageous amount of money, but it is hard to argue with the silverware.

It would be interesting to see what other successful clubs in England, Germany, and Italy look like over that time frame.

I'm trying to remember where I read it, but there was a decent piece comparing the four CL semifinalists. Real, Barca, Bayern, and Dortmund based on transfer expenses and value per dollar (including sell on fees).

Obviously no team is going to take a bigger bath than Real once they get rid of Kaka.

But my big takeaway from that piece has kind of informed my position that I think some of the hosannas about La Masia are overblown. In the same era when Pep came and Barca started dominating world football, Barca brought in a lot of people for a lot of money. Some of those have been very good signings, like Dani Alves, but Barca has also had a lot of misses.

And while it hasn't been close to as efficient as Dortmund, I seem to remember Bayern's policy looking OK. Klopp recently said he needed to use an "bow and arrow" for transfers while Bayern had a "bazooka", but I'm not sure how much of that narrative really pans out. Bayern have bought smart. They got Robben for a decent price after Real gave up on him. Mandzukic was bought at the right value. As was Neuer (who was highly sought after, but would certainly fetch a higher price today). Boateng was a Man City washout. Dante came cheap. They paid a lot for Javi Martinez, but not above market as far as I can tell. It looks like they'll take a healthy loss on Gomez, but I find that kind of inexplicable. At the very least, he gave them plenty of goals.

Masia is overblown? The players that are homegrown have allowed them to fade some pretty spectacular transfer misses. I think Barca might be better off targeting younger (South American?) players, and integrating them via the B team or the reserves before they're thrown into first team football, e.g. Sanchez.

Porto is pretty amazing. I think United's been around break-even over the last several years. ETA: or not?

 

[T Bell]

On RH's point;

United

7 titles in the same timeframe as Porto, but has lost 250M in transfers.

Well... I'd value PL titles and English cups higher than Portuguese titles and cups, and United is a true global brand in a way that only Barca and RM are at the moment.

The economics are just different for those teams than they are for the rest of the clubs in the world, even other "big clubs".

 

[Native]

Arsenal might be the best in terms of net transfer per league position. Sure they haven't won any hardware lately, but they are a perennial top 4 and haven't spent jack (or so it seems) to do it. ManU might also be in good standing here.

I'm sure Arsenal fans view this reality as a source of pain rather than pride. Consistently profitable, very high ticket prices, but no trophies. Meanwhile, the invincibles season is now 10 years in the past. Man United earns far more than any other EPL club but it's debt service and management fees from the IPO are crushing. Something like £80mil per year.For net transfer revenue, Porto is in a class by itself. Unbelievable performance over the past 5-10 years.

Looking for a sleeper team in this area, how about Shakhtar Donetsk? Look at there moves this calendar year alone:

Fernandinho: Sold to City for 35M pounds (bought for 7M pounds Euros)

Henrikh Mkhitaryan: Sold to Dortmund for 24M Pounds (bought for 7.5M Pounds)

Willian: Sold to Anzi for 35M Euros (bought for 19M Euros)

Total: Net Positive ~60M Pounds in just six months.

And this kind of selling success is bound to continue moving forward. In the last month, they quietly bought emerging Brazlian U-21's Welington Nem, Fernando and Fred (20 y/o) for 8M, 9M and 13M pounds respectively. They have a pipeline into Brazil that is unmatched right now and theyre reaping the benefits. And the amazing this is that it hasnt hindered their success - they finished first in the Ukrianian league this past season and qualify regulalrly for the Champions League.

I think it's clear that the model is that there are buying teams and selling teams. Top teams in smaller leagues, like Porto, Shaktar, and Ajax have had to embrace this model for years. Ajax, in particular with its home grown players. Even if Chelsea were to buy Sheffield United Legend in Fifa13, Wellington Nem, they'd have to loan him out anyway. So the smaller leagues are the perfect place to develop them.

A slightly different way to look at it for me is that some clubs have to view player transactions as a source of revenue, while I think most top clubs don't, or shouldn't.

Yes. I think that's exactly right. I'd argue that if a big club is doing its job, it will lose money on transfers. Because it should be buying top players at the peak of their careers, and selling them past the peak of their careers (after the club has received the benefit of their best football).

Completely agree with you guys. Though to be fair to Arsenal, I think their priorities are changing as we speak. Their supposed bid for Suarez would be their biggest signing ever by a considerable amount.

 

[Slapdash]

Arsenal's taken them for a ride, the ONLY exception being Cesc who was bought for what is probably fair money. Alex Song for 15M?

You need to spend at least that much for a good defensive mid these days.

17 million Euro for Alex Hleb too. 19 appearances for Barca....approx. 895,000 Euro per appearance. He was a stud for Arsenal for the year or two before that move, too. Barca is the place where Arsenal players go to die.

Henry did pretty well..

He only scored 35 goals in 80 league games over three seasons, and all that for a guy they paid over 20M for. Another one in the long line was Emmanuel Petit in 2001 for 7M. Like Song, he was a DM who was moved back to play CB and he was pretty ineffective there and not worth the money, though they recouped it in their transfer to Chelsea the following year.

This interview with Petit, although bizarrely done, is pretty interesting for what it says about how Barca handles players. Barca would seem to be a meat grinder for transfer talent.

Barcelona has spent 430 million net euros in the transfer business over the last decade. That is about 180 million less than Real Madrid, incidently. That is an outrageous amount of money, but it is hard to argue with the silverware.

It would be interesting to see what other successful clubs in England, Germany, and Italy look like over that time frame.

I'm trying to remember where I read it, but there was a decent piece comparing the four CL semifinalists. Real, Barca, Bayern, and Dortmund based on transfer expenses and value per dollar (including sell on fees).

Obviously no team is going to take a bigger bath than Real once they get rid of Kaka.

But my big takeaway from that piece has kind of informed my position that I think some of the hosannas about La Masia are overblown. In the same era when Pep came and Barca started dominating world football, Barca brought in a lot of people for a lot of money. Some of those have been very good signings, like Dani Alves, but Barca has also had a lot of misses.

And while it hasn't been close to as efficient as Dortmund, I seem to remember Bayern's policy looking OK. Klopp recently said he needed to use an "bow and arrow" for transfers while Bayern had a "bazooka", but I'm not sure how much of that narrative really pans out. Bayern have bought smart. They got Robben for a decent price after Real gave up on him. Mandzukic was bought at the right value. As was Neuer (who was highly sought after, but would certainly fetch a higher price today). Boateng was a Man City washout. Dante came cheap. They paid a lot for Javi Martinez, but not above market as far as I can tell. It looks like they'll take a healthy loss on Gomez, but I find that kind of inexplicable. At the very least, he gave them plenty of goals.

Masia is overblown? The players that are homegrown have allowed them to fade some pretty spectacular transfer misses. I think Barca might be better off targeting younger (South American?) players, and integrating them via the B team or the reserves before they're thrown into first team football, e.g. Sanchez.

Porto is pretty amazing. I think United's been around break-even over the last several years.

Exactly. It is easier to stomach the high cost "renting" of players like Henry and Villa for a few years when the club doesn't have any transfer expenses for over half of its lineup. Including the best players in the squad.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Arsenal's taken them for a ride, the ONLY exception being Cesc who was bought for what is probably fair money. Alex Song for 15M?

You need to spend at least that much for a good defensive mid these days.

17 million Euro for Alex Hleb too. 19 appearances for Barca....approx. 895,000 Euro per appearance. He was a stud for Arsenal for the year or two before that move, too. Barca is the place where Arsenal players go to die.

Henry did pretty well..

He only scored 35 goals in 80 league games over three seasons, and all that for a guy they paid over 20M for. Another one in the long line was Emmanuel Petit in 2001 for 7M. Like Song, he was a DM who was moved back to play CB and he was pretty ineffective there and not worth the money, though they recouped it in their transfer to Chelsea the following year.

This interview with Petit, although bizarrely done, is pretty interesting for what it says about how Barca handles players. Barca would seem to be a meat grinder for transfer talent.

Barcelona has spent 430 million net euros in the transfer business over the last decade. That is about 180 million less than Real Madrid, incidently. That is an outrageous amount of money, but it is hard to argue with the silverware.

It would be interesting to see what other successful clubs in England, Germany, and Italy look like over that time frame.

I'm trying to remember where I read it, but there was a decent piece comparing the four CL semifinalists. Real, Barca, Bayern, and Dortmund based on transfer expenses and value per dollar (including sell on fees).

Obviously no team is going to take a bigger bath than Real once they get rid of Kaka.

But my big takeaway from that piece has kind of informed my position that I think some of the hosannas about La Masia are overblown. In the same era when Pep came and Barca started dominating world football, Barca brought in a lot of people for a lot of money. Some of those have been very good signings, like Dani Alves, but Barca has also had a lot of misses.

And while it hasn't been close to as efficient as Dortmund, I seem to remember Bayern's policy looking OK. Klopp recently said he needed to use an "bow and arrow" for transfers while Bayern had a "bazooka", but I'm not sure how much of that narrative really pans out. Bayern have bought smart. They got Robben for a decent price after Real gave up on him. Mandzukic was bought at the right value. As was Neuer (who was highly sought after, but would certainly fetch a higher price today). Boateng was a Man City washout. Dante came cheap. They paid a lot for Javi Martinez, but not above market as far as I can tell. It looks like they'll take a healthy loss on Gomez, but I find that kind of inexplicable. At the very least, he gave them plenty of goals.

Masia is overblown? The players that are homegrown have allowed them to fade some pretty spectacular transfer misses. I think Barca might be better off targeting younger (South American?) players, and integrating them via the B team or the reserves before they're thrown into first team football, e.g. Sanchez.

Porto is pretty amazing. I think United's been around break-even over the last several years.

I don't take anything away from the quality of La Masia players that have made Barca great. Obviously, Messi alone as a La Masia graduate is responsible for loads of Barca's success.

What I do take issue with is this narrative that assumes that: 1) Pep Guardiola made Barca the greatest team in the world; 2) did it through relying on La Masia graduates and eschewing other team's attempts to secure "Galacticos."; and 3) that Barca will continue this tradition by bringing up graduates of La Masia who have been trained to play "the Barca way."

Because most of the La Masia graduates were already with the first team when Pep was promoted. Because Pep relied A LOT on transfers during the time that Barca was winning everything. And because it's been a few years since a La Masia graduate has made it as a surefire first team selection. Not since Busquets.

I think the game has changed a lot since the time that even Xavi and Iniesta were promoted to the first team. I think that even Barca will be hard pressed to bring up more than 1 true first team player out of the academy every couple of years. I think La Masia is going to increasingly be used to sell promising players to teams that can afford to develop them in the first team.

 

[T Bell]

Arsenal might be the best in terms of net transfer per league position. Sure they haven't won any hardware lately, but they are a perennial top 4 and haven't spent jack (or so it seems) to do it. ManU might also be in good standing here.

I'm sure Arsenal fans view this reality as a source of pain rather than pride. Consistently profitable, very high ticket prices, but no trophies. Meanwhile, the invincibles season is now 10 years in the past. Man United earns far more than any other EPL club but it's debt service and management fees from the IPO are crushing. Something like £80mil per year.For net transfer revenue, Porto is in a class by itself. Unbelievable performance over the past 5-10 years.

Looking for a sleeper team in this area, how about Shakhtar Donetsk? Look at there moves this calendar year alone:

Fernandinho: Sold to City for 35M pounds (bought for 7M pounds Euros)

Henrikh Mkhitaryan: Sold to Dortmund for 24M Pounds (bought for 7.5M Pounds)

Willian: Sold to Anzi for 35M Euros (bought for 19M Euros)

Total: Net Positive ~60M Pounds in just six months.

And this kind of selling success is bound to continue moving forward. In the last month, they quietly bought emerging Brazlian U-21's Welington Nem, Fernando and Fred (20 y/o) for 8M, 9M and 13M pounds respectively. They have a pipeline into Brazil that is unmatched right now and theyre reaping the benefits. And the amazing this is that it hasnt hindered their success - they finished first in the Ukrianian league this past season and qualify regulalrly for the Champions League.

I think it's clear that the model is that there are buying teams and selling teams. Top teams in smaller leagues, like Porto, Shaktar, and Ajax have had to embrace this model for years. Ajax, in particular with its home grown players. Even if Chelsea were to buy Sheffield United Legend in Fifa13, Wellington Nem, they'd have to loan him out anyway. So the smaller leagues are the perfect place to develop them.

A slightly different way to look at it for me is that some clubs have to view player transactions as a source of revenue, while I think most top clubs don't, or shouldn't.

Yes. I think that's exactly right. I'd argue that if a big club is doing its job, it will lose money on transfers. Because it should be buying top players at the peak of their careers, and selling them past the peak of their careers (after the club has received the benefit of their best football).

Completely agree with you guys. Though to be fair to Arsenal, I think their priorities are changing as we speak. Their supposed bid for Suarez would be their biggest signing ever by a considerable amount.

Their biggest transfer was Arshavin four years ago for 15M. Suarez would more than double it. Higuain will (I'm confident) beat it by a considerable margin.

Fans of other clubs are poo-pooing or ridiculing Arsenal, and even Gooners have despaired, but they truly have been competing for the last 8+ years with one hand tied behind their back financially. The fact that Wenger has kept them in the CL all that time (almost always making the knock-out rounds, BTW) is frankly a piece of management that I think will be looked upon down the road as an amazing accomplishment.

 

[Sebowski]

Arsenal might be the best in terms of net transfer per league position. Sure they haven't won any hardware lately, but they are a perennial top 4 and haven't spent jack (or so it seems) to do it. ManU might also be in good standing here.

I'm sure Arsenal fans view this reality as a source of pain rather than pride. Consistently profitable, very high ticket prices, but no trophies. Meanwhile, the invincibles season is now 10 years in the past. Man United earns far more than any other EPL club but it's debt service and management fees from the IPO are crushing. Something like £80mil per year.

For net transfer revenue, Porto is in a class by itself. Unbelievable performance over the past 5-10 years.

Looking for a sleeper team in this area, how about Shakhtar Donetsk? Look at there moves this calendar year alone:

Fernandinho: Sold to City for 35M pounds (bought for 7M pounds Euros)
Henrikh Mkhitaryan: Sold to Dortmund for 24M Pounds (bought for 7.5M Pounds)
Willian: Sold to Anzi for 35M Euros (bought for 19M Euros)

Total: Net Positive ~60M Pounds in just six months.

And this kind of selling success is bound to continue moving forward. In the last month, they quietly bought emerging Brazlian U-21's Welington Nem, Fernando and Fred (20 y/o) for 8M, 9M and 13M pounds respectively. They have a pipeline into Brazil that is unmatched right now and theyre reaping the benefits. And the amazing this is that it hasnt hindered their success - they finished first in the Ukrianian league this past season and qualify regulalrly for the Champions League.

My cynicism tells me that they are probably pretty close to some 3rd party ownership groups and don't get to keep a lot of that transfer money.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Arsenal's taken them for a ride, the ONLY exception being Cesc who was bought for what is probably fair money. Alex Song for 15M?

You need to spend at least that much for a good defensive mid these days.

17 million Euro for Alex Hleb too. 19 appearances for Barca....approx. 895,000 Euro per appearance. He was a stud for Arsenal for the year or two before that move, too. Barca is the place where Arsenal players go to die.

Henry did pretty well..

He only scored 35 goals in 80 league games over three seasons, and all that for a guy they paid over 20M for. Another one in the long line was Emmanuel Petit in 2001 for 7M. Like Song, he was a DM who was moved back to play CB and he was pretty ineffective there and not worth the money, though they recouped it in their transfer to Chelsea the following year.

This interview with Petit, although bizarrely done, is pretty interesting for what it says about how Barca handles players. Barca would seem to be a meat grinder for transfer talent.

Barcelona has spent 430 million net euros in the transfer business over the last decade. That is about 180 million less than Real Madrid, incidently. That is an outrageous amount of money, but it is hard to argue with the silverware.

It would be interesting to see what other successful clubs in England, Germany, and Italy look like over that time frame.

I'm trying to remember where I read it, but there was a decent piece comparing the four CL semifinalists. Real, Barca, Bayern, and Dortmund based on transfer expenses and value per dollar (including sell on fees).

Obviously no team is going to take a bigger bath than Real once they get rid of Kaka.

But my big takeaway from that piece has kind of informed my position that I think some of the hosannas about La Masia are overblown. In the same era when Pep came and Barca started dominating world football, Barca brought in a lot of people for a lot of money. Some of those have been very good signings, like Dani Alves, but Barca has also had a lot of misses.

And while it hasn't been close to as efficient as Dortmund, I seem to remember Bayern's policy looking OK. Klopp recently said he needed to use an "bow and arrow" for transfers while Bayern had a "bazooka", but I'm not sure how much of that narrative really pans out. Bayern have bought smart. They got Robben for a decent price after Real gave up on him. Mandzukic was bought at the right value. As was Neuer (who was highly sought after, but would certainly fetch a higher price today). Boateng was a Man City washout. Dante came cheap. They paid a lot for Javi Martinez, but not above market as far as I can tell. It looks like they'll take a healthy loss on Gomez, but I find that kind of inexplicable. At the very least, he gave them plenty of goals.

Masia is overblown? The players that are homegrown have allowed them to fade some pretty spectacular transfer misses. I think Barca might be better off targeting younger (South American?) players, and integrating them via the B team or the reserves before they're thrown into first team football, e.g. Sanchez.

Porto is pretty amazing. I think United's been around break-even over the last several years.

I don't take anything away from the quality of La Masia players that have made Barca great. Obviously, Messi alone as a La Masia graduate is responsible for loads of Barca's success.

What I do take issue with is this narrative that assumes that: 1) Pep Guardiola made Barca the greatest team in the world; 2) did it through relying on La Masia graduates and eschewing other team's attempts to secure "Galacticos."; and 3) that Barca will continue this tradition by bringing up graduates of La Masia who have been trained to play "the Barca way."

Because most of the La Masia graduates were already with the first team when Pep was promoted. Because Pep relied A LOT on transfers during the time that Barca was winning everything. And because it's been a few years since a La Masia graduate has made it as a surefire first team selection. Not since Busquets.

I think the game has changed a lot since the time that even Xavi and Iniesta were promoted to the first team. I think that even Barca will be hard pressed to bring up more than 1 true first team player out of the academy every couple of years. I think La Masia is going to increasingly be used to sell promising players to teams that can afford to develop them in the first team.

Pep's legacy is always going to be tough to judge, maybe similar to Phil Jackson's, in that he's been in situations mostly where he has tremendous talent. He's never made something out of nothing, the way that Ferguson did. His era was by no means perfect and most of the groundwork was laid before he got there, but I do think he was a very good coach. Not a God, but very good. I don't know if anyone really clings to the myth that Barca's some sort of precious, local team-that-made-good via its homegrown players and tactical ingenuity. I mean they did just spend a small fortune on Neymar.

The lack of Masia grads to crack the first team is also a byproduct of having so many good players (Masia grads and high-priced transfers alike) already in the lineup. The continuing saga of Thiago underscores that perfectly, although the pipeline currently seems to be much heavier on attacking talent (Lederman, Dongou, Deulofeu, etc.) than defense.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Is Lederman really "in the pipeline?" Or do we just really, really hope that he is?

I'm not trying to poop on Pep. I think Pep is a great coach. If anything, I think he's really underrated tactically. And I'm not really pooping on La Masia, which probably does produce more talent than any other academy. What I'm saying is that I don't think ANY academy system is going to be able to reliably crank out entire "golden generations" of talent sufficient to stock clubs competing for top European championships unless something drastic happens to contract the financial model.

It's going to be a very, very special player who is given a chance to break into the first team at those clubs. There's just way too much money at stake. For all I know, Coquelin and Eisfeld are going to be great players. But I'll eat my hat if they become regulars at Arsenal before proving themselves with some mid-level French or German team first.

 

[T Bell]

Pep's legacy is always going to be tough to judge, maybe similar to Phil Jackson's, in that he's been in situations mostly where he has tremendous talent. He's never made something out of nothing, the way that Ferguson did. His era was by no means perfect and most of the groundwork was laid before he got there, but I do think he was a very good coach. Not a God, but very good. I don't know if anyone really clings to the myth that Barca's some sort of precious, local team-that-made-good via its homegrown players and tactical ingenuity. I mean they did just spend a small fortune on Neymar.The lack of Masia grads to crack the first team is also a byproduct of having so many good players (Masia grads and high-priced transfers alike) already in the lineup. The continuing saga of Thiago underscores that perfectly, although the pipeline currently seems to be much heavier on attacking talent (Lederman, Dongou, Deulofeu, etc.) than defense.

I've come around in my thinking on this (in all sports, BTW) but managing an elite team is its own skill. The media attention, the egos, the impatience of management, the time demands upon the coach/manager, are all hugely increased. There are many, many very good coaches who can make a bad team good or even a good team very good, but who simply can't take that next step and handle that pressure. You just don't know until you see it happen.

Pep obviously could handle that. He also should be credited with their more pressing defensive style which was a hugely effective compliment to the tiki-taka style they employed. Still, he spent a LOT of money to bring in talent which, by and large, just wasn't all that good. Fortunately for him, history tends to remember silverware rather than expenditures unless the club goes bankrupt, so his legacy will be fine.

It'll be interesting to see how he does at Bayern given that Germany is a very different soccer environment, particularly on the business end, from Spain.

 

[Slapdash]

Wouldn't be surprised if Montoya and Bartra end up being first team players in the next year. Can't see keeping Alves and Alba starting together.

I think it should be clear Barcelona's strategy has, for many years now, been to sign big names to complement the La Masia graduates. Whether those graduates are great players like Messi or solid players like Pedro who can outperform due to familiarity with the system and teamates.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Lederman will hoist the World Cup for 'murrica and the CL trophy for Barca in 10 years.

 

[T Bell]

Wouldn't be surprised if Montoya and Bartra end up being first team players in the next year. Can't see keeping Alves and Alba starting together.

I think it should be clear Barcelona's strategy has, for many years now, been to sign big names to complement the La Masia graduates. Whether those graduates are great players like Messi or solid players like Pedro who can outperform due to familiarity with the system and teamates.

Which is exactly what the strategy should be with an elite club with a first class academy. The problem with player development is that you can't guarantee that the academy will produce players who fill areas of need in the first team, at least when you need them, and an elite club can't risk too many players learning on the job in the first team.

 

[T Bell]

Lederman will hoist the World Cup for 'murrica and the CL trophy for Barca in 10 years.

Just like Freddy Adu.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Wouldn't be surprised if Montoya and Bartra end up being first team players in the next year. Can't see keeping Alves and Alba starting together.

I think it should be clear Barcelona's strategy has, for many years now, been to sign big names to complement the La Masia graduates. Whether those graduates are great players like Messi or solid players like Pedro who can outperform due to familiarity with the system and teamates.

Pedro was signed at 17. I think he's kind of right on the verge of being able to be labelled an academy graduate. He played with the C team and the B team a while, but he was with the A team by 20 at least. He's certainly an alternative to the high-priced transfer model in the same way that Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain were, so maybe it's an academic distinction.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I've come around in my thinking on this (in all sports, BTW) but managing an elite team is its own skill. The media attention, the egos, the impatience of management, the time demands upon the coach/manager, are all hugely increased. There are many, many very good coaches who can make a bad team good or even a good team very good, but who simply can't take that next step and handle that pressure. You just don't know until you see it happen.

Which is what makes Ferguson so good IMO. He built up two teams from nothing, and was also able to manage an elite team. Not a fan of United, but appreciate what he did and how he did it.

 

[T Bell]

I've come around in my thinking on this (in all sports, BTW) but managing an elite team is its own skill. The media attention, the egos, the impatience of management, the time demands upon the coach/manager, are all hugely increased. There are many, many very good coaches who can make a bad team good or even a good team very good, but who simply can't take that next step and handle that pressure. You just don't know until you see it happen.

Which is what makes Ferguson so good IMO. He built up two teams from nothing, and was also able to manage an elite team. Not a fan of United, but appreciate what he did and how he did it.

Agreed. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better manager or head coach in any sport ever, and I don't say that lightly at all.

This also means that there are a lot more questions about what Moyes can do with that club than people seem to want to think about right now. They won't be a disaster under Moyes of course, but he's going to have to be superb to sustain what Ferguson did. Those are some crazy big shoes to fill.

 

[Slapdash]

Pep's legacy is always going to be tough to judge, maybe similar to Phil Jackson's, in that he's been in situations mostly where he has tremendous talent. He's never made something out of nothing, the way that Ferguson did. His era was by no means perfect and most of the groundwork was laid before he got there, but I do think he was a very good coach. Not a God, but very good. I don't know if anyone really clings to the myth that Barca's some sort of precious, local team-that-made-good via its homegrown players and tactical ingenuity. I mean they did just spend a small fortune on Neymar.The lack of Masia grads to crack the first team is also a byproduct of having so many good players (Masia grads and high-priced transfers alike) already in the lineup. The continuing saga of Thiago underscores that perfectly, although the pipeline currently seems to be much heavier on attacking talent (Lederman, Dongou, Deulofeu, etc.) than defense.

I've come around in my thinking on this (in all sports, BTW) but managing an elite team is its own skill. The media attention, the egos, the impatience of management, the time demands upon the coach/manager, are all hugely increased. There are many, many very good coaches who can make a bad team good or even a good team very good, but who simply can't take that next step and handle that pressure. You just don't know until you see it happen.

Pep obviously could handle that. He also should be credited with their more pressing defensive style which was a hugely effective compliment to the tiki-taka style they employed. Still, he spent a LOT of money to bring in talent which, by and large, just wasn't all that good. Fortunately for him, history tends to remember silverware rather than expenditures unless the club goes bankrupt, so his legacy will be fine.

It'll be interesting to see how he does at Bayern given that Germany is a very different soccer environment, particularly on the business end, from Spain.

Not sure I would say. He handled it well at first, but the pressure eventually is what made him quit.

 

[T Bell]

 

[T Bell]

Pep's legacy is always going to be tough to judge, maybe similar to Phil Jackson's, in that he's been in situations mostly where he has tremendous talent. He's never made something out of nothing, the way that Ferguson did. His era was by no means perfect and most of the groundwork was laid before he got there, but I do think he was a very good coach. Not a God, but very good. I don't know if anyone really clings to the myth that Barca's some sort of precious, local team-that-made-good via its homegrown players and tactical ingenuity. I mean they did just spend a small fortune on Neymar.The lack of Masia grads to crack the first team is also a byproduct of having so many good players (Masia grads and high-priced transfers alike) already in the lineup. The continuing saga of Thiago underscores that perfectly, although the pipeline currently seems to be much heavier on attacking talent (Lederman, Dongou, Deulofeu, etc.) than defense.

I've come around in my thinking on this (in all sports, BTW) but managing an elite team is its own skill. The media attention, the egos, the impatience of management, the time demands upon the coach/manager, are all hugely increased. There are many, many very good coaches who can make a bad team good or even a good team very good, but who simply can't take that next step and handle that pressure. You just don't know until you see it happen.

Pep obviously could handle that. He also should be credited with their more pressing defensive style which was a hugely effective compliment to the tiki-taka style they employed. Still, he spent a LOT of money to bring in talent which, by and large, just wasn't all that good. Fortunately for him, history tends to remember silverware rather than expenditures unless the club goes bankrupt, so his legacy will be fine.

It'll be interesting to see how he does at Bayern given that Germany is a very different soccer environment, particularly on the business end, from Spain.

Not sure I would say. He handled it well at first, but the pressure eventually is what made him quit.

And yet he lasted longer than Mourinho has anywhere.

Four years at a top club is a LONG time in managerial terms.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Re: Lederman... anyone know at what age we find out how good he really is? The funnel from 12/13 to 18/19 has got to get pretty small I'd think.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Don't know if this was posted here but you have to have some crazy big balls to even try this in this setting as a college player.

Best part is Chelsea legend Florent Malouda's obvious delight. Eliason said that Henry told him it was a great goal, but all video evidence suggest that the great Thierry was unmoved in his inimitable Gallic way.

As awful as the game was, and it was plenty awful, there were several impressive goals. From Eliason, but also from Messi, Henry, and Osvaldo.

 

[Sebowski]

Is Lederman really "in the pipeline?"

YES

 

[Sebowski]

Lederman will hoist the World Cup for 'murrica and the CL trophy for Barca in 10 years.

 

[T Bell]

GB Nigerian soccer!

 

[Native]

Don't know if this was posted here but you have to have some crazy big balls to even try this in this setting as a college player.

Chelsea legend Florent Malouda

I see what you did there.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Don't know if this was posted here but you have to have some crazy big balls to even try this in this setting as a college player.

Chelsea legend Florent Malouda

I see what you did there.

Always trying to make Eephus' life a bit easier.

 

[The Gator]

Jozzy's move to Sunderland OFFICIAL

GL big guy

 

[T Bell]

Jozzy's move to Sunderland OFFICIAL

GL big guy

I hope he does very well*

*except for the 2-4 times per year that Sunderland play Arsenal.

 

[Eephus]

Don't know if this was posted here but you have to have some crazy big balls to even try this in this setting as a college player.

Chelsea legend Florent Malouda

I see what you did there.

Always trying to make Eephus' life a bit easier.

I'm glad somebody is

 

[T Bell]

Barca president ducks press by going into womens bathroom.

 

[The Z Machine]

I just read that Villa will take a pay cut from 6m€ to 4.5m€ (after taxes). That's the same wage that Falcao earned last year.

 

[Christo]

GB Nigerian soccer!

Police Machine is my new favorite team name.

 

[QuizGuy66]

GB Nigerian soccer!

Police Machine is my new favorite team name.

Seriously, best Soccer Team Name ever

Can't understand why folks would find these results suspicious

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

So if Mexico loses to Martinique in the 3rd game this thread will instantly reach 2000 pages right?

-QG

 

[T Bell]

So if Mexico loses to Martinique in the 3rd game this thread will instantly reach 2000 pages right?

-QG

Maybe, but I don't know if I can post if I'm laughing that hard.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Reasonably certain Jesus Christ could score a scorpion kick and we still won't get more than 5 pages out of the Gold Cup.

 

[Premier]

Anybody bothering with this game tonight? Figure I'll tune it for the first half.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I'l be watching. Hell, I watched Honduras/Haiti last night.

 

[Christo]

I watched Canada/Martinique.

 

[The Gator]

So if Mexico loses to Martinique in the 3rd game this thread will instantly reach 2000 pages right?

-QG

Maybe, but I don't know if I can post if I'm laughing that hard.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I have seen at least half of every game so far. My wife is not pleased to learn that the Gold Cup is an entirely different thing than the Confederations Cup. Add in the U-20 games I watched over the weekend and I'm pretty sure she's ready to force me to watch like 20 straight hours of Knitting Daily or Through the Wormhole.

 

[dparker713]

I have seen at least half of every game so far. My wife is not pleased to learn that the Gold Cup is an entirely different thing than the Confederations Cup. Add in the U-20 games I watched over the weekend and I'm pretty sure she's ready to force me to watch like 20 straight hours of Knitting Daily or Through the Wormhole.

Perfect compromise. You watch the game on the nice TV. She watches what she wants on another TV. After the game ends you guys have sex. Done and done.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I have seen at least half of every game so far. My wife is not pleased to learn that the Gold Cup is an entirely different thing than the Confederations Cup. Add in the U-20 games I watched over the weekend and I'm pretty sure she's ready to force me to watch like 20 straight hours of Knitting Daily or Through the Wormhole.

Perfect compromise. You watch the game on the nice TV. She watches what she wants on another TV. After the game ends you guys have sex. Done and done.

We only own one TV. And that's not the most improbable part of your solution.

 

[Steve Tasker]

GB Nigerian soccer!

Police Machine is my new favorite team name.

Police Machine vs Joe Public - a rare matchup that can describe both an international club friendly and the Rodney King incident.

 

[Christo]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, Puga. So close.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

GB Nigerian soccer!

Police Machine is my new favorite team name.

Police Machine vs Joe Public - a rare matchup that can describe both an international club friendly and the Rodney King incident.

Or a current thread in the FFA.

 

[JaxBill]

The Costa Rica - Cuba match is some ugly looking soccer.

 

[Christo]

Ticos!

 

[T Bell]

GB Nigerian soccer!

Police Machine is my new favorite team name.

Police Machine vs Joe Public - a rare matchup that can describe both an international club friendly and the Rodney King incident.

I love the Police Machine Facebook page.