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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ramsay Hunt Experience
- Start date
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Do you guys think the EPL will punish the break away 6?
I have seen ideas ranging from fines, to point deductions, to not allowing those teams into next years Euro comps if they qualified.
It sounds like the remaining 14 teams are not in unison to what the punishment should be. The break away 6 broke an EPL rule because they did get approval from the EPL to join a new competition.
I have seen ideas ranging from fines, to point deductions, to not allowing those teams into next years Euro comps if they qualified.
It sounds like the remaining 14 teams are not in unison to what the punishment should be. The break away 6 broke an EPL rule because they did get approval from the EPL to join a new competition.
The Gator
Footballguy
B Maverick
Footballguy
It's funny how we hear about the backlash of the English fans. I don't seem to see any reports of Barca, Real Madrid or Juventus fans citing what a terrible idea this was. Just saying.
And how is the premier league going to punish these teams? Point reductions? Utterly ridiculous.
Color me shocked as well that American and Russian billionaires cannot tell the tone of working class English fans.
At least Woodward is out, one good thing that came of the league.
And earlier point about the ICC - it's an exhibition, not an actual league, and I've gladly paid money to attend in the past and will do so again. It's a hell of a lot less expensive than traveling to Europe to attend a United match. I get to a) enjoy the comradery of fans around me at a match, b) usually get to see some up and coming stars from the youth team and c) very much enjoyed the satisfaction of watching United beat City in Houston. That said, I'm not paying high dollar to watch Real Madrid if they come to town, but when my team comes, I'm certainly going, even with outlandish ticket prices.
And how is the premier league going to punish these teams? Point reductions? Utterly ridiculous.
Color me shocked as well that American and Russian billionaires cannot tell the tone of working class English fans.
At least Woodward is out, one good thing that came of the league.
And earlier point about the ICC - it's an exhibition, not an actual league, and I've gladly paid money to attend in the past and will do so again. It's a hell of a lot less expensive than traveling to Europe to attend a United match. I get to a) enjoy the comradery of fans around me at a match, b) usually get to see some up and coming stars from the youth team and c) very much enjoyed the satisfaction of watching United beat City in Houston. That said, I'm not paying high dollar to watch Real Madrid if they come to town, but when my team comes, I'm certainly going, even with outlandish ticket prices.
B Maverick
Footballguy
Good question. So many angles to this too. How do you do this without hurting the players since they had no idea and did a lot to stop this from moving forward? Fines for some of the owners won't hurt them, some might. Forced sales of the clubs? Is docking points fair to the players who have worked hard on the pitch and were not part of it?
Unfortunately the EPL has been catering to these 6 for so long since they are the ones driving the TV contracts for the league. These are the teams being marketed and they know it.
At the end of this, the EPL and other clubs will welcome them back and it will be forgotten by next season. Woodward resigns (did others follow in the EPL?), maybe some fines will get levied.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I would like to see some hefty fines that are then channeled into the fight against racism. The punished teams won't miss the money and maybe some small good can come out of this cluster ####.
DJackson10
Footballguy
There's a Francesco Totti series currently on TV. Unfortunately for non speaking Italians its all in Italian only on an Italian channel. Antonio Cassano joked that the actor playing him looks way too good good looking to be playing him
DJackson10
Footballguy
Yeah I posted last nigh that Manu and Liverpool were apparently the two main clubs behind getting the SL going. Many of the teams feel the same way as Abramovich. however I don't feel sorry for a guy who has major ties to Jeffrey Epstein and Child sex trafficking. He's just use to being on the other side of the con. But thats a completely different topic in itself there.
I also heard getting back on the actual topic the two main clubs involved in conning the clubs were also instrumental in stopping the Saudi takeover at Newcastle over a year ago now
DJackson10
Footballguy
DJackson10
Footballguy
All lip service from these former players. They are the ones who defended or didn't speak out on blatant racism in football for yrs. I said yesterday this is all lip service from a lot of people but lets including the blantant disregard to the racism along with the high transfers, huge financial takeovers by owners and player transfers inflating (PSG you aren't the good guy in this Cough Neymar Cough).
DJackson10
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I wasn't surprised and I'm a little disappointed not to see how far UEFA and the UK Govt and etc were really willing to go to stop this. I don't think they were bluffing, but now we won't know.
The racism thing is such a bad comparison IMO. I couldn't be much more opposed to it, but what fans do is, despite everything, not really in the club's control. And the things they do have control over they mostly do. Banning fans, player suspensions (Kudela got 10 games), etc. It's just not something you can ever completely get rid of and I think most people recognize that.
This? This was 12 uber rich guys deciding they weren't rich enough and trying to monetize the collective work and investment of others over the last 130 years without regard for what it did to the rest of the the system that created the value.
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Well never know, but this idea has the feeling of upper level bean counters trying to maximize profit more than these can't fail rich dudes. Not saying the rich dudes didn't buy into it, but I wonder whether qualification into the CL makes much of a difference to their personal bottom lines.
B Maverick
Footballguy
In some cases not getting into CL can reduce their sponsorship agreement amounts, plus they don't get the money for being in the CL, reduces value in the club. May be not directly affecting their pockets but indirectly it does.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Totally.
I guess my point was wondering how much these guys make decisions for the clubs based purely on $$ vs other reasons. I'd guess other reasons wins out in their thinking, but that their underlings are constantly scrambling to squeeze ducats out of dirt because a recurring loss (of face, value, whatever) will mean their jobs.
At least that's my take having worked on several billionaires homes. Money doesn't mean a thing until they feel a perceived slight or having been cheated.
B Maverick
Footballguy
When the Glazers took over United, the removed "Football Club" from the crest. They overpay for players when they miss CL, underpay when they are in it. I have no doubt they are running it based purely on $$.
City, Chelsea and their soverign wealth funds are basing it on trophies and the football IMO.
B Maverick
Footballguy
Lost in all the ESL drama was the revamped CL for 2024. One of the changes is expanding from 32-36 teams. This expansion would allow inclusion of two teams who have the highest UEFA coefficient and didn't qualify through their domestic league....
This season it would be Arsenal and Tottenham
This season it would be Arsenal and Tottenham
El Floppo
Footballguy
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I agree the racism comment is a completely separate matter that doesn't contribute to the ESL discussion and something I should not have brought up, I just thought Bamford showed an interesting perspective. However, I do think the supporter / pundit position on this, in England and elsewhere, is hypocritical. For example, Chelsea spent 200 mil on player acquisitions last summer in the midst of a pandemic with depressed revenues throughout European football. The supporters will no doubt demand additional acquisitions of the owner again this summer, including clamoring for Haaland. Yet they accuse the owner of acting out of greed and call this an attack on the foundation of football itself? That's BS imo. These clubs are global brands and are acting as such. You can't expect someone like FSG/Henry - who have fiduciary obligations to their investors - to make a massive investment, take on all the risk, and not pursue favorable financial opportunities.
The Champions League (formerly European Cup) has been steadily moving in this direction over the 30+ years I've been watching. It is naive for any pundit or supporter to claim this was unexpected or is some big shocking move. It has been a long time coming and will definitely be our reality within a few years. There is no way a big media outlet or global sponsor would have invested any significant funds in the European Cup tournament as it existed in the late 80's. The changes made since then have made the competition more profitable by guaranteeing participation of more big clubs, removing minnows and ensuring as much as possible through group stages and seeding that the bigs advance and play each other in the later rounds. That is exactly what the ESL does - only with a more blatant guarantee to the mega-clubs and without UEFA's corrupt participation.
encaitar
Footballguy
Technically Joe Lewis is the "owner" since he's the majority owner of ENIC right? He could just appoint another chairman.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
What's more affecting their pockets is they haven't been able to internationalize their revenue and European revenue has stagnated. They've all basically maximized the European TV and sponsorship revenue in terms of eyeballs on the product and need the mid-week competition to fully monetize the value of the clubs.
UEFA simply hasn't been able to meaningfully monetize non-UEFA CL rights and the big clubs (rightfully) think its because roughly half the competition is meaningless from a value perspective (and the move from 32 to 36 only makes it worse). I'm not going to say they have to have structure the competition to do so, but both the owners and players are leaving money on the table by not producing weekly matchups that would attract the marginal fan.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Check out the '86-87 European Cup, when Real Madrid drew Napoli in the first round. Meanwhile, the Swiss champion Neuchâtel Xamax played the Finnish champion Kuusysi. So the Spanish champion knocks out Diego Maradonna and the Italian Scudetto holder in the first round, while Sparta Prague beat the Iceland champs Fram by aggregate 10-0. The cries of "money-grab!" were not quite as severe when UEFA moved away from this model over the 90's and later (as compared to what we heard this week), but it was viewed with disdain by traditionalists when they started allowing 3rd and 4th place finishers from the big leagues and relegating the small country champions to play-in rounds that are untelevised and largely ignored.
Now consider that Chelsea is currently preparing for a champions league tie with Real Madrid, and its the first time these two clubs have played each other in a competitive game since 1998. From a business perspective, that makes no sense. If you want global media and sponsorship money, the biggest stars and biggest clubs have to be playing each other regularly.
Now consider that Chelsea is currently preparing for a champions league tie with Real Madrid, and its the first time these two clubs have played each other in a competitive game since 1998. From a business perspective, that makes no sense. If you want global media and sponsorship money, the biggest stars and biggest clubs have to be playing each other regularly.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
OK, so do away with domestic cups, and make more CL matches! Bigger groups for more meaningful Group Stage matches?
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I certainly don't think expanding the "group" stage to ten games, as UEFA plans, is a good idea. Would also do away with this silly UEFA Nations League.
B Maverick
Footballguy
I think the League (Carbou?) cup can go. Or make it a lower division cup and no EPL teams. The only difference between that and the FA CUp is that the league cup is only for football league level teams and the FA Cup is for any team.
UEFA Nations league is tough, Is it part of EuroCup and WC qualifying? Is it better then random freindlies being scheduled?
Aside from UEFA pocketing too much of the $ in CL, I am not sure what the issue is? I would concentrate on fixing Europa (Not sure the Europa Conference League will help though). Too many games to get through in Europa esp w/ 3rd Place CL teams dropping down to knockout rounds. Its insane.
B Maverick
Footballguy
Manchester United is the only team to be involved in the Champions League, Europa League, and European Super League all in the same season.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I'm not saying its a problem or an "issue" for me, but the major difference with the proposed ESL format - and presumably what the major funding sources consider the issue to be, is that they want nothing but the big clubs playing each other, every week, starting in August, and none of the Shakhtars, Zenits, Anderlechts, Ludogarets, Krasnodars, Olympiacos, or Red Star Belgrades that normally fill out the field in the group stage. Also, yeah - UEFA pockets too much of the proceeds and probably doesn't maximise the revenue sources the way a global marketing partner would.
B Maverick
Footballguy
Oh I get that as part of the ESL draw. In some of the comments about the ESL, the clubs think more $ should go to the clubs and less to UEFA. Just wondering why people want to change the CL and what they think is wrong with it as it is now.
Even with the "lesser" teams, there is still competition to be played. Ajax isn't considered a top marketable team despite having more history then some of the 12 (a lot of the 12?) and were in the semis 2 years ago. A turkish team no one ever heard of beat United in the group stages and cost them the knockout round. People want to get rid of that? And by people I do not mean the owners who of course don't want that.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I think current supporters, particularly European fans and old, established soccer fans in the US and elsewhere, have no problem with the current structure. My guess is that these people are looking to the Asian market and some of the untapped, new soccer fan market in the US and elsewhere. For those new or "immature" markets, I think the Arsenal shield (and yes, even Spurs) is more valuable than some of these champions from smaller leagues we see year in and out. Just my personal hottake.
B Maverick
Footballguy
I agree, which is why it was basically the top 12 in monetary value and not a historical value that joined.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
What’s wrong with it now is that the vast majority of group stage matches are pretty meaningless which both casual and hardcore fans know. They effectively have 7 weeks of good matches instead of 19 (or 22 with a playoff) with round robin. That’s a much easier sell in the US as a package with Tues, Weds, and Thursday matches where you get a marquee matchup each day. Basically the CL of any a media property you can build a network brand around while the ESL could have been.
That’s one of the reasons the EPL rights here are worth the most. Most every weekend there’s at least some marquee matchup NBC can market.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
So what about 4x 9-team round-robin divisions, followed by one-game neutral site semi, and one game neutral site final, both played in a 5 day span after domestic leagues shut down. Most teams play 16 total matches (home-home), 2 teams play 17 matches, 2 teams play 18 matches.
As it stands, Group stage is 6 matches, followed by 2x in Round fo 16, Quarters, and Semis, for 6 mor matches, and a one game Final. 2 teams play in 13 matches.
This would give CL a bunch more revenue, and force some more top matchups. No decent into Europa, which is structured similarly. Europa winner gets auto-promoted to CL next season. it also preserves the "table" aspect to European football. You could even do it where the bottom 2 of each groups cannot be in CL next season.
As it stands, Group stage is 6 matches, followed by 2x in Round fo 16, Quarters, and Semis, for 6 mor matches, and a one game Final. 2 teams play in 13 matches.
This would give CL a bunch more revenue, and force some more top matchups. No decent into Europa, which is structured similarly. Europa winner gets auto-promoted to CL next season. it also preserves the "table" aspect to European football. You could even do it where the bottom 2 of each groups cannot be in CL next season.
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DJackson10
Footballguy
DJackson10
Footballguy
Don't forget allowing Saudis to buy these clubs as well. You know the people from a country that funds terrorists like ISIS and AlQada and has numerous women and human rights issues. It's just hypocrisy and virtue signaling from Fans and pudits alike. Where's the outcry for all these other issues in the sport but the biggest is a bunch of teams with very rich owners creating a their own boys club?
DJackson10
Footballguy
It helps determine ranking in drawing the groups for those tournaments. Also UEFA wanted more meaningful International Matches, rather then a random Friendly no one wants to bother with. A lot of fans hate International play to begin with if it's not the World Cup or Euro's or whatever it is other regions play. I still don't really get the overall premiss of this whacky Nations league but I can tell you it's just another way to fill the corrupts pockets more
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I think the major difference was making it a (mostly) closed league instead of an (mostly) open competition. I would be a lot less concerned with UEFA changing the coefficients to get more big league teams into the group stage than I am ensuring that a mediocre team will ALWAYS be there. Making domestic results irrelevant is the outrage IMO.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Going down with the ship
=================
Fabrizio Romano
@FabrizioRomano
Florentino Perez: “The #SuperLeague is not dead, it’s on stand-by and we’ll work on the project. All 12 founder clubs signed the same contract”.
=================
Fabrizio Romano
@FabrizioRomano
Florentino Perez: “The #SuperLeague is not dead, it’s on stand-by and we’ll work on the project. All 12 founder clubs signed the same contract”.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
The rest of soccer fandom getting some close experience with the character that Flo is makes this whole kerfuffle worth it. He's been after the Super League for a long time.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Honestly, the opinions of the players in this all are not given enough say. They don't get enough rest/recovery time. Clubs and federations are in an arms race to fill out every piece of the calendar.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
It is hard on the players but it shows us how incredibly important international play is to the players.
Look at how few players there are like a Carlos Vela who leave behind an international career. I always expect more and more would do this but very few do.
It is almost like club play is their job where as international play is their passion for some players.
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encaitar
Footballguy
He has to keep the faith. Real Madrid are nearly $500M in debt with no way out without this ESL.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Brian Straus
@BrianStraus
Just sat thru call w La Liga pres Tebas and 5 clubs. Takeaway: sanctions against Barcelona, Madrid and Atleti seem unlikely. League more interested in future protective measures. Tebas: "These clubs have been sanctioned by their own fans ... It's like a reputational sanction."
@BrianStraus
Just sat thru call w La Liga pres Tebas and 5 clubs. Takeaway: sanctions against Barcelona, Madrid and Atleti seem unlikely. League more interested in future protective measures. Tebas: "These clubs have been sanctioned by their own fans ... It's like a reputational sanction."
Capella
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
You know that when some of these bills come due these same ####ers will try to use it as proof they needed the ESL, instead of proof that they've lived way beyond their means for a long time.
The dumb thing is that a FFP with real bite would help every team (except possibly City, Chelsea and PSG), but they're too stupid to see it.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
See this is the part I don't get. Apparently unconstrained competition is good until teams spend anything they want...then its bad. If some club wants to blow themselves up like Leeds, why prevent that? FFP essentially codifies the top 6, PSGs, etc since they can't blow themselves up.
In any case, I won't be surprised if some of these forces start throwing money at MLS more. There's a reason MLS clubs are worth more on a multiple basis than the Euro counterparts. I won't be surprised if our children look back in 50+ years and say this was the turning point that really allowed MLS to turn the corner.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The way MLS does business is pretty impressive given everything they have faced. They are far from perfect but they manage their wallets fairly well.
