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***** Official Westworld Thread ***** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Rohn Jambo
- Start date
Koya
Footballguy
Ok, all caught up. This may have been mentioned, but to me the overall premise boils down to this, to a degree, in terms of the underlying philosophical and existential questions at hand:
We question AI and sense of being for the Robots. The new update, the new abilities to perhaps retain memories etc. It comes down to this:
1. At what point does a series of programmed responses EVOLVE into true, sentient beings? What is that line of demarcation between kiling someone or playing cowboy for fun or between raping a woman, and just having your way with an inanimate object to live out a fantasy without any harm done to another.
2. WE (humans) ARE ALL ROBOTS. In that, what REALLY makes humans any different than the robots in the first place? We have just evolved further and/or have such complex "programming" that the result is a sentient being. But let's be honest, our brains are just a really good computer, and at root, binary yes/no decision trees that dictate all else.
The moral issue is not not only the recognition that at some point these robots "feel" and remember and become sentient, which calls into question all the bad acts done to them... the moral issue extends to the recognition that, at many levels and maybe at the most base, underlying foundational level, we as humans are no different than version 100.1 of these robots. It's inevitable they become us, but we are already no more than an advanced form of them.
We question AI and sense of being for the Robots. The new update, the new abilities to perhaps retain memories etc. It comes down to this:
1. At what point does a series of programmed responses EVOLVE into true, sentient beings? What is that line of demarcation between kiling someone or playing cowboy for fun or between raping a woman, and just having your way with an inanimate object to live out a fantasy without any harm done to another.
2. WE (humans) ARE ALL ROBOTS. In that, what REALLY makes humans any different than the robots in the first place? We have just evolved further and/or have such complex "programming" that the result is a sentient being. But let's be honest, our brains are just a really good computer, and at root, binary yes/no decision trees that dictate all else.
The moral issue is not not only the recognition that at some point these robots "feel" and remember and become sentient, which calls into question all the bad acts done to them... the moral issue extends to the recognition that, at many levels and maybe at the most base, underlying foundational level, we as humans are no different than version 100.1 of these robots. It's inevitable they become us, but we are already no more than an advanced form of them.
Koya
Footballguy
Another concept, one put forth by my wife, is that there is some real-life (human) basis for the underlying characters. My wife originally thought maybe the brains of the robots were actually once living humans, and there can occasionally be some cross-flashback into that life. I forget what it was, but to me that didn't make sense and she then agreed...
BUT, perhaps there is something to it. Real experiences of real humans utilized as an underlying part of their narrative and history. Personally I don't believe this to be the case, but it's a perspective worth keeping in mind.
BUT, perhaps there is something to it. Real experiences of real humans utilized as an underlying part of their narrative and history. Personally I don't believe this to be the case, but it's a perspective worth keeping in mind.
Koya
Footballguy
Well, Androids DO dream of electric sheep...You could have just said ethical implications of cognitive robots.
Koya
Footballguy
And, to not just be playfully flippant, I believe the particular nature of this story is the opposite.
It's the ethical implications of we, humans, being no more than cognitive robots, ourselves.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I posted after the first or second episode that my wife said pretty much the exact same thing.
Koya
Footballguy
We must both be attracted to the same type of crazy.
I posted after the first or second episode that my wife said pretty much the exact same thing.
Condolences, my friend.
Sconch
Footballguy
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
Are the mutually exclusive?
Another good band name: The Lesbian Replicants. Better band name: The Replicant Lesbians.
shadyridr
Footballguy
yeah and Im disagreeing with that theory. I am saying she had a memory of being shot in the present time. I think one of the major themes so far has been the hosts are recalling memories.
shadyridr
Footballguy
lol I was like holy #### did you see that and my wife missed it so also had to rewind. Incredible.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
shadyridr
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
That's not a theme. That's an established fact.
But so what? Why are they recalling the memories they are recalling? What is the significance of these memories? What is the significance of all the exposition we've gotten about the early days of the park?
All of those are narrative questions that the show is going to have to answer. So either the show is going to give us a bunch of flashback heavy episodes in the future, or the show has been doing so already.
I think one of the big challenges for the show is that a lot of the interest stems from the allure of not knowing what is going on. There is a certain expectation of a payoff down the line. But, once everything is "explained" the show loses a bit of its luster.
I think I have read that HBO has signed off on a 2nd season, so I don't expect we will get many satisfactory answers this season. I imagine we will learn a bit more about the maze, but the season will end before we really understand the significance.
It can't be too long before one of the hosts kills a guest. At some point, you would think it becomes hosts v. Guests. Then the hosts will be looking for the way out of the world - breaking out of the matrix - presumably through the maze.
I think I have read that HBO has signed off on a 2nd season, so I don't expect we will get many satisfactory answers this season. I imagine we will learn a bit more about the maze, but the season will end before we really understand the significance.
It can't be too long before one of the hosts kills a guest. At some point, you would think it becomes hosts v. Guests. Then the hosts will be looking for the way out of the world - breaking out of the matrix - presumably through the maze.
Koya
Footballguy
This is the same network where winter has been coming for 7 years. We will get enough to keep us jonesing for more, and we will like it.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
This is real life Red Dead Redemption for the guests.
It is like watching Lost, Memento, Jurassic Park, Matrix and I,Robot at the same time to us.
It is like watching Lost, Memento, Jurassic Park, Matrix and I,Robot at the same time to us.
To be fair - they have done well to move that story forward, despite the author. GOT is simply a long epic, but there is still a relatively defined beginning, middle, and end-game.
As for WestWorld, I am certain we will want more - which means we will not be getting many answers this season. Ultimately you need a good protagonist and antagonist to keep the story moving. I am guessing that MIB is the protagonist here, and Ford is probably the ultimate antagonist (or perhaps the "Board" of the company who have designs on something bigger for the bots)
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Nolan and Joy have said that they have 4 out o5 seasons mapped out. Nolan created Person of Interest, which seeded a lot of later season reveals in its first season. Obviously, the show could have the Lost/x-Files problem. Where the idea of the mysteries are more interesting than the payoff. But just from the scripts thus far and even the upcoming episode titles, the show appears to be focusing (IMO) on compelling themes. I'm sure there will be plenty left unresolved in the first season, but I suspect there will also be a pretty satisfying narrative arc as well.
(HULK)
(Smash)
shadyridr
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
You realize I posted that in this thread a week ago, right?
The promo picture (in the red box) has the \W/ logo that is consistent with all of the shows promotional material and the shows opening credits. The \W/ logo is also seen in the show when the head writer guy is debuting his new story line (that Ford rejects).
The \V logo is what actually aired in that scene. It is in the background there, also on the welcome video when he gets off the train to enter Mesa Gold and goes up the escalator. In episode 3, it was again shown on the lab coats for Ford's flashback to the beginnings of the park.
Companies don't use two corporate logos at the same time. We now KNOW that the \V logo was used when the park was first being built. We already knew that the \W/ logo is being used while Ford is developing his latest storyline. We can assume this time period is somewhere >30 years after the park opened, because the MiB says he's been coming there for 30 years, and a tech references some big malfunction that happened 30 years ago.
All of that is stuff that is known and correct. My assumptions are as follows:
The malfunction of 30 years ago is probably when Arnold died. And we're probably going to get a view into that story from William's point of view. I kinda think William will die in the midst of all of this happening (and that the Teddy host is based on William). And it will somehow tie together with whatever the MiB is doing 30 years later and the hosts becoming conscious (again maybe?).
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I do not think any of those presented to us as humans are actually hosts. That would be a weak twist imo.
So we know Dolores is the oldest (or one of?) in the park. She is "different" and Teddy's backstory and exisitence seems solely to keep Dolores there (according to Ford). This lends credence to Dolores meeting William in an older loop prior to Teddy's creation. Also, if Ford knows what Teddy's real role was, why did he remove him; ie why did he want Dolores to run (again?)?
I wonder how many iterations it took for Dolores to end up running instead of getting killed.
So we know Dolores is the oldest (or one of?) in the park. She is "different" and Teddy's backstory and exisitence seems solely to keep Dolores there (according to Ford). This lends credence to Dolores meeting William in an older loop prior to Teddy's creation. Also, if Ford knows what Teddy's real role was, why did he remove him; ie why did he want Dolores to run (again?)?
I wonder how many iterations it took for Dolores to end up running instead of getting killed.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Nope, hard time reading every post. So you are saying that screenshot did not actually appear in the episode?
TLEF316
Footballguy
To me, this scene is the biggest piece of evidence against William existing in the 30 years ago timeline. If not, that entire scene (inside the barn, outside and then at Williams camp) then has to be some sort of mash up of multiple timelines without any way of us knowing when they jumped back and forth and that's crap.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
We know its a mashup of multiple memories, whether there's a N-30 timeline or not. She's already mashing up the one host raping her with the MIB raping her and getting shot escaping and not getting shot escaping.
Well - it may not be as clear cut as that. If there are two different timelines - setting aside the quick memory flashbacks for a moment - one when William comes to the park, and a "current" timeline - then I can still see a scenario where Dolores ends up in William's camp.
We know that current Delores has a typical loop where she heads to town in the morning, heads back to the house at night - stumbles on her family getting killed, and she is occasionally raped maybe even killed. Lately Teddy has been part of her loop, and seems to be her protector, until Ford sent him into another narrative that keeps him away from the house at night.
But, we also know that Teddy has not always been part of the story. So, its conceivable, that 30 years ago - give or take - Delores' narrative might have taken her to escape the house and stumble into the camp - maybe in that scenario, there are no Guests, and only hosts at the house - so no need for the raping.
I am in the camp of at least two distinct timelines - MIB and WIlliam's. They do not necessarily have to be the same person. But we know something went wrong 30 years ago, and we know something is currently going wrong - so its possible we are seeing two parallel stories - one showing us what went wrong 30 years ago, and what is going wrong now - with some connection to the two events - presumably the MIB.
I posted a link above somewhere where HBO has a site where you can book a WestWorld "vacation" it runs about $600,000+ for a week....
The Gator
Footballguy
That's where the reveries come in. Those are very new to the hosts and were introduced purposefully by Ford. The hosts aren't aware of being able to have "flashbacks" and it's confusing them. So when there's a switch like the getting shot scene or the gun in the drawer scene, it makes sense because the host could really think they were in the past experience. So we get a chance to see that past experience now.
TLEF316
Footballguy
I can buy that. But one of mulva's visions during the attack was of the man in black. (Who I think everyone agrees exists in the present time line)
Then she shoots her current attacker, goes outside, has some more flashbacks (including separate loops when she is/is not shot) and escapes.
Then they show her stumbling into William's camp. If we're expected to believe that William exists in t-30, that means they're "tricking us" by showing us scenes from t-30 immediately after the corresponding present day equivalent scene. If that's the case, it's really lazy story telling for the purpose of a "gotcha" moment later. That would be lame
Then she shoots her current attacker, goes outside, has some more flashbacks (including separate loops when she is/is not shot) and escapes.
Then they show her stumbling into William's camp. If we're expected to believe that William exists in t-30, that means they're "tricking us" by showing us scenes from t-30 immediately after the corresponding present day equivalent scene. If that's the case, it's really lazy story telling for the purpose of a "gotcha" moment later. That would be lame
Ned
Footballguy
Technically it was not "immediately" after - they cut to the scene with the stray host, before coming back to Delores stumbling into William's camp.
In our minds we put that scene together with her shooting the guy in the barn, and then escaping - but that does not necessarily have to be the case - something else could have driven her to William's camp in a narrative 30 years ago.
shadyridr
Footballguy
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TLEF316
Footballguy
Yeah, I realize that's what could have happened, but if that's what they're doing, that just seems really lazy to me. Our minds put those 2 scenes together because we have no reason not to.
If this is the route they're going (showing stuff out of order, nearly seamless cuts between time lines) this show might not be for me. And if that's the case, I'll deal with it.
belljr
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I think much depends on the reveal. I do think that the show is providing contextual clues for what its doing. And I imagine you'll see some of those contextual clues pulled together. But in any case, there is a point to doing it that way. The hosts cannot distinguish between the experience of memories and now. So our confusion, in some way, is meant to mirror Delores's confusion.
(HULK)
(Smash)
The \W/ logo in the red box is a promotional photo released by HBO.
The \V logo is what actually aired and those pictures are screen captures.
