*** OFFICIAL Yankees 2008 Thread*** (3 Viewers)

[Liquid Tension]

First, in response to Shady's compliment of me

I am only responding to the folks who have already thrown in the towel and conceded this team can't make the playoffs.

Shady and many others threw in the towel last year as well and said the team is not good enough and on and on. I am saying I believe you are selling the team short again. It is APRIL folks.

Are the Yankees the best team, probably not, but all you need to do is get into the playoffs and get hot. This team has plenty of talent to get into the playoff and do damage. I am being realistic.

Sammy mentioned the Yankees offensive starters not doing worse. Note that Sammy did say the Yanks should be scoring about 1 run a game more so he is being fair in his post.

NAME OPS 2008 OPS 2007 Delta Hideki Matsui 0.928 0.855 <strong class='bbc'>0.073</strong> A. Rodriguez 0.908 1.067 <strong class='bbc'>-0.159</strong> Bobby Abreu 0.825 0.814 <strong class='bbc'>0.011</strong> Melky Cabrera 0.814 0.718 <strong class='bbc'>0.096</strong> Derek Jeter 0.763 0.84 <strong class='bbc'>-0.077</strong> Johnny Damon 0.742 0.747 <strong class='bbc'>-0.005</strong> Jorge Posada 0.697 0.97 <strong class='bbc'>-0.273</strong> Jason Giambi 0.571 0.79 <strong class='bbc'>-0.219</strong> Robinson Cano 0.434 0.841 <strong class='bbc'>-0.407</strong> Totals 0.759 0.829 <strong class='bbc'>-0.106666667</strong> Per guy less I bolded the Delta..but I have listed the 2008 OPS then the 2007 OPS and then the delta. Melky and Matsui are the only two guys doing better. Damon and Abreu are about the same and the other 5 are all worse and significantly so. As I said almost all starting positions are doing worse.

On average (NOT taking AB's into the equation) EACH STARTING guy is about 100 OPS points under last year.

 

[Darth Cheney]

First, in response to Shady's compliment of me I am only responding to the folks who have already thrown in the towel and conceded this team can't make the playoffs. Shady and many others threw in the towel last year as well and said the team is not good enough and on and on. I am saying I believe you are selling the team short again. It is APRIL folks.Are the Yankees the best team, probably not, but all you need to do is get into the playoffs and get hot. This team has plenty of talent to get into the playoff and do damage. I am being realistic.Sammy mentioned the Yankees offensive starters not doing worse. Note that Sammy did say the Yanks should be scoring about 1 run a game more so he is being fair in his post.

NAME	 OPS 2008	OPS 2007	Delta	Hideki Matsui	0.928	0.855	0.073	A. Rodriguez	0.908	1.067	-0.159	Bobby Abreu	0.825	0.814	0.011	Melky Cabrera	0.814	0.718	0.096	Derek Jeter	0.763	0.84	-0.077	Johnny Damon	0.742	0.747	-0.005	Jorge Posada	0.697	0.97	-0.273	Jason Giambi	0.571	0.79	-0.219	Robinson Cano	0.434	0.841	-0.407	Totals	0.759	0.829	-0.106666667	Per guy less

Yeah I already said it was only April....... you are so arrogant

 

[shadyridr]

Im just tired of seeing the "I predicted so and so..." "I told you so..." or "In my blog..." in every post. Are you ever wrong?

 

[Darth Cheney]

Im just tired of seeing the "I predicted so and so..." "I told you so..." or "In my blog..." in every post. Are you ever wrong?

That's the other blog.

 

[Liquid Tension]

First, in response to Shady's compliment of me I am only responding to the folks who have already thrown in the towel and conceded this team can't make the playoffs. Shady and many others threw in the towel last year as well and said the team is not good enough and on and on. I am saying I believe you are selling the team short again. It is APRIL folks.Are the Yankees the best team, probably not, but all you need to do is get into the playoffs and get hot. This team has plenty of talent to get into the playoff and do damage. I am being realistic.Sammy mentioned the Yankees offensive starters not doing worse. Note that Sammy did say the Yanks should be scoring about 1 run a game more so he is being fair in his post.

NAME	 OPS 2008	OPS 2007	Delta	Hideki Matsui	0.928	0.855	0.073	A. Rodriguez	0.908	1.067	-0.159	Bobby Abreu	0.825	0.814	0.011	Melky Cabrera	0.814	0.718	0.096	Derek Jeter	0.763	0.84	-0.077	Johnny Damon	0.742	0.747	-0.005	Jorge Posada	0.697	0.97	-0.273	Jason Giambi	0.571	0.79	-0.219	Robinson Cano	0.434	0.841	-0.407	Totals	0.759	0.829	-0.106666667	Per guy less

Yeah I already said it was only April....... you are so arrogant

And you are the only one who isn't already saying we should throw in the towel and focus on next year So being arrogant is not agreeing with everyone else or dismissing their opinions as wrong?...Great, I was called that last year as well. Maybe my delivery is bad...in this case shoot the messenger but not the message.

 

[Sammy3469]

First, in response to Shady's compliment of me I am only responding to the folks who have already thrown in the towel and conceded this team can't make the playoffs. Shady and many others threw in the towel last year as well and said the team is not good enough and on and on. I am saying I believe you are selling the team short again. It is APRIL folks.Are the Yankees the best team, probably not, but all you need to do is get into the playoffs and get hot. This team has plenty of talent to get into the playoff and do damage. I am being realistic.Sammy mentioned the Yankees offensive starters not doing worse. Note that Sammy did say the Yanks should be scoring about 1 run a game more so he is being fair in his post.

NAME	 OPS 2008	OPS 2007	Delta	Hideki Matsui	0.928	0.855	0.073	A. Rodriguez	0.908	1.067	-0.159	Bobby Abreu	0.825	0.814	0.011	Melky Cabrera	0.814	0.718	0.096	Derek Jeter	0.763	0.84	-0.077	Johnny Damon	0.742	0.747	-0.005	Jorge Posada	0.697	0.97	-0.273	Jason Giambi	0.571	0.79	-0.219	Robinson Cano	0.434	0.841	-0.407	Totals	0.759	0.829	-0.106666667	Per guy less

Yeah I already said it was only April....... you are so arrogant

And you are the only one who isn't already saying we should throw in the towel and focus on next year So being arrogant is not agreeing with everyone else or dismissing their opinions as wrong?...Great, I was called that last year as well. Maybe my delivery is bad...in this case shoot the messenger but not the message.

It's also the message...Somehow 5 of 9 equals almost all. All things considered with any number of guys in the wrong side of 32, you'd expect that to happen. Newsflash, old guys get worse over time, not better.You're also comparing A-Rod to his otherwordly 2007 and don't take into account the fact that Gonzalez, Moeller and Molina were playing over their heads in their ABs, but I digress. Like shady pointed out as a team they're regress to the mean in their RISP at some point so they'll score more runs over time, but its not like its a forgone certainty that all these guys will magically improve outside of that the rest of the way besides for Cano and Giambi. All the others are within some sort of reasonable expectations at this point.

 

[shadyridr]

And you are the only one who isn't already saying we should throw in the towel and focus on next year So being arrogant is not agreeing with everyone else or dismissing their opinions as wrong?...Great, I was called that last year as well. Maybe my delivery is bad...in this case shoot the messenger but not the message.

WTF did I say we should throw in the towel this season? I just said I can live with it if we use this season as a rebulding year. Obviously its April so I still want them to try and compete for a playoff spot but its obvious theyre not gonna win a WS this year. You honestly think this is a WS team?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Im just tired of seeing the "I predicted so and so..." "I told you so..." or "In my blog..." in every post. Are you ever wrong?

Yes, I thought I could get some of you Yankee fans to try and learn something OK, relax, I was kidding...Seriously, last year I thought that it would have been extremely surprising/doubtful if Pettitte had an ERA below 4 and for the most he did. He had a couple of bad games late that pushed him above 4, but I was predicting more in line with what he did his last year with Houston and slightly higher because of the AL (4.20+). I think Pettitte is a better pitcher than he was and is using both sides of the plate, even if his stuff is not quite as good. He won't keep up his present rate as he gives up too many hits, but he should give us around what he did last year and that would be fine.My predictions have been put in writing for many years so they are not hindsight observations but before hand comments. I have also been very supportive of Cano and he is not doing anything to make me look good this year.If you haven't seen my past writings then focus on my thoughts in this arena and decide whether I am correct more often than not. That is the beauty of putting it in writing you put your reputation on the line.

 

[Liquid Tension]

First, in response to Shady's compliment of me I am only responding to the folks who have already thrown in the towel and conceded this team can't make the playoffs. Shady and many others threw in the towel last year as well and said the team is not good enough and on and on. I am saying I believe you are selling the team short again. It is APRIL folks.Are the Yankees the best team, probably not, but all you need to do is get into the playoffs and get hot. This team has plenty of talent to get into the playoff and do damage. I am being realistic.Sammy mentioned the Yankees offensive starters not doing worse. Note that Sammy did say the Yanks should be scoring about 1 run a game more so he is being fair in his post.

NAME	 OPS 2008	OPS 2007	Delta	Hideki Matsui	0.928	0.855	0.073	A. Rodriguez	0.908	1.067	-0.159	Bobby Abreu	0.825	0.814	0.011	Melky Cabrera	0.814	0.718	0.096	Derek Jeter	0.763	0.84	-0.077	Johnny Damon	0.742	0.747	-0.005	Jorge Posada	0.697	0.97	-0.273	Jason Giambi	0.571	0.79	-0.219	Robinson Cano	0.434	0.841	-0.407	Totals	0.759	0.829	-0.106666667	Per guy less

Yeah I already said it was only April....... you are so arrogant

And you are the only one who isn't already saying we should throw in the towel and focus on next year :X So being arrogant is not agreeing with everyone else or dismissing their opinions as wrong?...Great, I was called that last year as well. Maybe my delivery is bad...in this case shoot the messenger but not the message.

It's also the message...Somehow 5 of 9 equals almost all. All things considered with any number of guys in the wrong side of 32, you'd expect that to happen. Newsflash, old guys get worse over time, not better.You're also comparing A-Rod to his otherwordly 2007 and don't take into account the fact that Gonzalez, Moeller and Molina were playing over their heads in their ABs, but I digress. Like shady pointed out as a team they're regress to the mean in their RISP at some point so they'll score more runs over time, but its not like its a forgone certainty that all these guys will magically improve outside of that the rest of the way besides for Cano and Giambi. All the others are within some sort of reasonable expectations at this point.

If you think a drop from all 9 guys of 100 OPS points is within the reasonable expectations then we have a different interpretation. Are the all doing horrendous, no, but as a team the Yankees OPS compared to last year is 70 points of OPS less (so that includes the guys you mention).As for the old guys comment, I don't buy that because while one would expect a slow drop off from a guy above 34 or so, these so called ancient guys put up some serious 2nd half numbers.Finally, as for ARod, his year last year was slightly better than the year 2 years prior with the Yanks. ARod had an OPS of 1.067 last year and 1.031 in 2005 and he was over 1.00 4 other times in his career so it is not unreasonable to expect only a 70 point reduction (around 1.000 OPS).In an earlier post (sorry Shady), I put down all the players and gave my opinions on what I thought were reasonable expectations...Posada was the one guy I expected to have the largest drop off...Can, is the guy I thought would have the largest increase (and this has really hurt the Yanks IMO)

 

[Michael Brown]

I'm always amused by people who say that "Team so-and-so" can't make a playoff or a WS run because of how they're structured in April.

Did the Indians have better pitching than the Yankees last year? Yes, their big advantages were CC and Fausto. And let's recall that CC sucked in Game 1 and Fausto put them in position to lose Game 2. (ETA: That's not to say he pitched poorly; just that the Yanks had a guy who out-dueled him who was supposedly "not as good".)

Did the Tigers have better pitching in 2006? Yes, but no one saw Kenny Rogers' gem coming. Nor did anyone see Ervin Santana's in 2005. Or any number of guys who have come up with huge postseason starts (Jeff Suppan, anyone?) despite being very average or below-average pitchers. Don Larsen comes to mind as well.

Let's face it, Billy Beane was right. The playoffs are a crapshoot. It's getting in that really matters. The Yankees have run into a lot of bad luck the past few years in the playoffs. Yes, their pitching and untimely hitting hasn't helped, but you can pick and choose a handful of ABs from 2001 (9th inning vs. Arizona), 2003 (Aaron Boone failing to get a SF in Game 4), and 2004 (too many to list) that if they had gone a different way would probably mean the Yanks win the WS those three years. And conversely, you can point to a handful of fortunate ABs from 1996-2000 that if THOSE had gone a different way they probably lose (Leyritz HR off Wohlers, Langston's pitch to Tino being called a ball, Armando Benitez walking Paul O'Neill, David Justice's HR off Rhodes, etc, etc). People love to point out how much of a colossal failure Randy Johnson was with the Yankees in the playoffs because they got him when he was "too old". There's some truth to that, but was he also too old when he went a combined 7-8 in the playoffs BEFORE becoming a Yankee? There's no rhyme or reason for some of these things.

Let's look back to the Braves of the 1990s. Clearly they had the best pitchers, but the won just 1 WS. Jake Peavy and Johan Santana, respectively the two best pitchers in the game right now, are a combined 1-5 in the postseason. The reason why is because the best PITCHERS don't necessarily win in the playoffs; the best PITCHING does. You have to hope that the guys who got you there will perform in those big spots, but getting a better or a worse pitcher doesn't guarantee anything. The only time you can guarantee they'll help you win is over the long haul of the season. I've learned (through A-Rod mostly) that you can't go out and get guys who you just *know* will perform in October -- it doesn't work that way. The best you can do is get guys who'll get you there, and then hope they come through when it matters most. Ted Williams was 5-25 with 1 RBI in his lone postseason appearance. Obviously some guys can somehow elevate their games in the big spots (Schilling, Beckett, Wells, El Duque) but I think that's more the exception than the rule.

I think the way this team is built with the offense they have, that they can get to the playoffs. The big concern at the beginning of the year was that Boston would win the division, and that one of Cleveland or Detroit would win the division with the other fighting the Yanks for the WC. At this point, those two teams look even worse off than NY does so let's just take a step back and see the bigger picture here. They are still going to contend for a playoff spot and the offense will come around (as it always does) all as the schedule improves. I'm not going to guarantee any playoff spots or set up any I-told-you-so's, but you'd think after the last few years of horrid starts that people would learn to be able to see the forest for the trees by this point (I think I used that expression right).

 

[Workhorse]

It's the pitching.

The Yankees don't have enough of it yet. The kids may eventually turn around, but the organizational philosophy regarding contructing the pitching staff shows a terrible trend:

2003 - 109 ERA+, ranked #2 in Ks, #1 in BB allowed, #8 in hits allowed

2004 - 96 ERA+, ranked #6 in Ks, #2 in BB allowed, #10 in hits allowed

2005 - 93 ERA+, ranked #6 in Ks, #8 in BB allowed, #9 in hits allowed

2006 - 102 ERA+, ranked #6 in Ks, #6 in BB allowed, #4 in hits allowed

2007 - 99 ERA+, ranked #12 in Ks, #12 in BB allowed, #6 in hits allowed

So far in 2008?

91 ERA+, ranked #6 in Ks, #4 in BB allowed, #11 in hits allowed

Other than the blip in '06, Yankee pitching has been the achilles heel. And unless the kids dramatically improve quickly, I see more of the same this year.

 

[Liquid Tension]

And you are the only one who isn't already saying we should throw in the towel and focus on next year So being arrogant is not agreeing with everyone else or dismissing their opinions as wrong?...Great, I was called that last year as well. Maybe my delivery is bad...in this case shoot the messenger but not the message.

WTF did I say we should throw in the towel this season? I just said I can live with it if we use this season as a rebulding year. Obviously its April so I still want them to try and compete for a playoff spot but its obvious theyre not gonna win a WS this year. You honestly think this is a WS team?

This was your quote Shady

Everything we need to do this year should be focused on rebuilding towards next year.

That is throwing in the towel for this year because if what you say should be followed, you would not look at any pitchers to fill in, you would never think of sending any of these pitchers down to the minors (as I believe you suggested) you would not think of doing anything but bringing up young minor leaguers when any injuries happen.Do I think the Yanks will win the WS? Well no, that would be stupid, as NO team is more likely to win the WS than every other team combined. But did anyone think some of the teams that won in previous years would win? The Yankees have as good a chance as most teams and maybe there are only a few that would be higher. Like I said before this team had a lot of talent. Imagine if a new owner bought the KC Royals and the guy was loaded and in the offseason he acquired every single player from the Yankees, don't you think people would see them as a legitimate WS contender? Judging from this board, maybe I am the only one but I think the answer would be yes. Are the odds good that they will win? NO, but that doesn't mean they don't have as good a shot as most teams to do it.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I'm always amused by people who say that "Team so-and-so" can't make a playoff or a WS run because of how they're structured in April.Did the Indians have better pitching than the Yankees last year? Yes, their big advantages were CC and Fausto. And let's recall that CC sucked in Game 1 and Fausto put them in position to lose Game 2. (ETA: That's not to say he pitched poorly; just that the Yanks had a guy who out-dueled him who was supposedly "not as good".)Did the Tigers have better pitching in 2006? Yes, but no one saw Kenny Rogers' gem coming. Nor did anyone see Ervin Santana's in 2005. Or any number of guys who have come up with huge postseason starts (Jeff Suppan, anyone?) despite being very average or below-average pitchers. Don Larsen comes to mind as well.Let's face it, Billy Beane was right. The playoffs are a crapshoot. It's getting in that really matters. The Yankees have run into a lot of bad luck the past few years in the playoffs. Yes, their pitching and untimely hitting hasn't helped, but you can pick and choose a handful of ABs from 2001 (9th inning vs. Arizona), 2003 (Aaron Boone failing to get a SF in Game 4), and 2004 (too many to list) that if they had gone a different way would probably mean the Yanks win the WS those three years. And conversely, you can point to a handful of fortunate ABs from 1996-2000 that if THOSE had gone a different way they probably lose (Leyritz HR off Wohlers, Langston's pitch to Tino being called a ball, Armando Benitez walking Paul O'Neill, David Justice's HR off Rhodes, etc, etc). People love to point out how much of a colossal failure Randy Johnson was with the Yankees in the playoffs because they got him when he was "too old". There's some truth to that, but was he also too old when he went a combined 7-8 in the playoffs BEFORE becoming a Yankee? There's no rhyme or reason for some of these things.Let's look back to the Braves of the 1990s. Clearly they had the best pitchers, but the won just 1 WS. Jake Peavy and Johan Santana, respectively the two best pitchers in the game right now, are a combined 1-5 in the postseason. The reason why is because the best PITCHERS don't necessarily win in the playoffs; the best PITCHING does. You have to hope that the guys who got you there will perform in those big spots, but getting a better or a worse pitcher doesn't guarantee anything. The only time you can guarantee they'll help you win is over the long haul of the season. I've learned (through A-Rod mostly) that you can't go out and get guys who you just *know* will perform in October -- it doesn't work that way. The best you can do is get guys who'll get you there, and then hope they come through when it matters most. Ted Williams was 5-25 with 1 RBI in his lone postseason appearance. Obviously some guys can somehow elevate their games in the big spots Schilling, Beckett, Wells, El Duque) but I think that's more the exception than the rule.I think the way this team is built with the offense they have, that they can get to the playoffs. The big concern at the beginning of the year was that Boston would win the division, and that one of Cleveland or Detroit would win the division with the other fighting the Yanks for the WC. At this point, those two teams look even worse off than NY does so let's just take a step back and see the bigger picture here. They are still going to contend for a playoff spot and the offense will come around (as it always does) all as the schedule improves. I'm not going to guarantee any playoff spots or set up any I-told-you-so's, but you'd think after the last few years of horrid starts that people would learn to be able to see the forest for the trees by this point (I think I used that expression right).

A couple of comments to a good post if you don't mind my arrogance The playoffs are absolutely a crap shoot. I would argue that it is not only good pitching though. People always say that good pitching beats good hitting and that is only a form of perspective. While I do agree that good hitting may feast better on bad pitching to elevate stats, who says that the guy pitched well or the the other team didn't hit well? Why couldn't the Yankee hit Carmona, but the Red Sox could? I would say that the Red Sox hit better than the Yanks as they are the only factor that changed.I understand that when a pitcher is really on, he is tough to hit, but when you are locked in at the plate, you swing at strikes and lay off the balls. For some reason you always hear so and so didn't have it today and got roughed up, but couldn't it be good hitting? Haven't you seen a guy not pitch well but be successful?

 

[shadyridr]

And you are the only one who isn't already saying we should throw in the towel and focus on next year

So being arrogant is not agreeing with everyone else or dismissing their opinions as wrong?...Great, I was called that last year as well.

Maybe my delivery is bad...in this case shoot the messenger but not the message.

WTF did I say we should throw in the towel this season? I just said I can live with it if we use this season as a rebulding year. Obviously its April so I still want them to try and compete for a playoff spot but its obvious theyre not gonna win a WS this year. You honestly think this is a WS team?

This was your quote Shady

Everything we need to do this year should be focused on rebuilding towards next year.

That is throwing in the towel for this year because if what you say should be followed, you would not look at any pitchers to fill in, you would never think of sending any of these pitchers down to the minors (as I believe you suggested) you would not think of doing anything but bringing up young minor leaguers when any injuries happen.

Do I think the Yanks will win the WS? Well no, that would be stupid, as NO team is more likely to win the WS than every other team combined. But did anyone think some of the teams that won in previous years would win? The Yankees have as good a chance as most teams and maybe there are only a few that would be higher. Like I said before this team had a lot of talent. Imagine if a new owner bought the KC Royals and the guy was loaded and in the offseason he acquired every single player from the Yankees, don't you think people would see them as a legitimate WS contender? Judging from this board, maybe I am the only one but I think the answer would be yes. Are the odds good that they will win? NO, but that doesn't mean they don't have as good a shot as most teams to do it.

These pitchers are hurting our chances of winning right now. I suggest sending them down so they can work on their pitchers to help our big league club whether later this year or next year. Thats not throwing in the towel but if you want to believe that then thats fine by me. Ive said all along (even before the season) we should focus on rebuilding and if we so happen to make the playoffs then thats a fantastic bonus. I feel the same EXACT way today as I did before the season. I believe Reaper shares similar view.

 

[shadyridr]

I guess I kind of am contradicting myself as I think sending the pitchers down would be a sign of fighting for the playoffs this year. If they went into full rebuilding mose then there would be absolutely no reason to send them down as we could just handle the lumps at the major league level because winning wouldnt be important. I consider sending them down fighting for the playoffs.

 

[cobalt_27]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

 

[Workhorse]

The playoffs are absolutely a crap shoot.

Not really.Baseball Prospectus found that there are three things that most successful playoff teams have in common:A power pitching staff, as measured by normalized strikeout rate. A good closer, as measured by WXRL. A good defense, as measured by FRAA.

Secret Sauce Ranking of Playoff Teams since 1969				  Rank Among 208 Playoff TeamsYear Team		FRAA	EqK9   WXRL  Avg Rank	 Result2007 Red Sox	  21	  10	 51	 27.3	   Won World Series1990 Reds		 31.5	15.5   40.5   29.2	   Won World Series2001 D'backs	  48	  15.5   40.5   34.7	   Won World Series1998 Yankees	  13	  68	 24	 35.0	   Won World Series1984 Tigers	   42.5	68	  1	 37.2	   Won World Series1998 Red Sox	  59.5	55.5   11	 42.0	   Lost in ALDS1979 Pirates	  42.5	68	 21	 43.8	   Won World Series2006 Twins	   112	  22	 19	 51.0	   Lost in ALDS1995 Indians	  78	  68	 12	 52.7	   Lost in World Series1999 Indians	  75	  22	 62	 53.0	   Lost in ALDS

 

[shadyridr]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

 

[cobalt_27]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

Oh dear god. Clearly not the most intelligent source of commentary from fans if they were all devouring the Hughes/Kennedy hype. Pretty typical of some fans of most teams out there to over-value their own product; especially if it's produced the likes of Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, et al. AND been burned on bringing in the likes of RJ, Pavano, Wright, et al. But, it's pretty evident this 90% had no idea who this Johan Santana character was if they were wanting to keep two mid-level pitchers instead of bring in one of the greatest pitchers of this generation who's only 29 and upon whom a franchise could build around for the next 5-10 years.Again, I'd like to know how stupid Hank feels about this now.Thanks for the link. I'll never visit it again.

 

[Reaper]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

Oh dear god. Clearly not the most intelligent source of commentary from fans if they were all devouring the Hughes/Kennedy hype. Pretty typical of some fans of most teams out there to over-value their own product; especially if it's produced the likes of Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, et al. AND been burned on bringing in the likes of RJ, Pavano, Wright, et al. But, it's pretty evident this 90% had no idea who this Johan Santana character was if they were wanting to keep two mid-level pitchers instead of bring in one of the greatest pitchers of this generation who's only 29 and upon whom a franchise could build around for the next 5-10 years.Again, I'd like to know how stupid Hank feels about this now.Thanks for the link. I'll never visit it again.

Do we know what the final offer was? Melky/Hughes/Kennedy ?I think even here the opinions were mixed.But, there's a long way to go and I do think the belief was that next year they would get their Ace pitcher without giving up prospects and still have Melky/Kennedy/Hughes....For this year, I feel the belief was, and I still agree, that the pitching can't be as bad as last year's start to the year with guys off the street.. It's close but, I'll take these guys over Pavano, Igawa, Rasner and whoever else.Either way - If this offense doesn't light up the scoreboard and the team as a whole doesn't stay damn healthy, then there was pretty much no shot no matter what way they went for this year....And I'm not sure how stupid Hank can feel - Isn't he the one who wanted the deal while just about everyone else in the organization talked him out of it? Didn't he say stuff like "Well this BETTER work out then"?

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

Oh dear god. Clearly not the most intelligent source of commentary from fans if they were all devouring the Hughes/Kennedy hype. Pretty typical of some fans of most teams out there to over-value their own product; especially if it's produced the likes of Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, et al. AND been burned on bringing in the likes of RJ, Pavano, Wright, et al. But, it's pretty evident this 90% had no idea who this Johan Santana character was if they were wanting to keep two mid-level pitchers instead of bring in one of the greatest pitchers of this generation who's only 29 and upon whom a franchise could build around for the next 5-10 years.Again, I'd like to know how stupid Hank feels about this now.Thanks for the link. I'll never visit it again.

I'm as frustrated as anyone, but lets be realistic here, Johan is three starts into his season, if he goes down this year, next year, at what point do keeping the prospects and that 149 million, make the deal make sense? My issues are more on his side of the ledger than the Yankee kids. To give up all of them AND pay him was always the issue there.We're in chapter one of this story, hell, we might still be in the table of contents, there's a lot of tale left to be told.

 

[[icon]]

 

[cobalt_27]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

Oh dear god. Clearly not the most intelligent source of commentary from fans if they were all devouring the Hughes/Kennedy hype. Pretty typical of some fans of most teams out there to over-value their own product; especially if it's produced the likes of Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, et al. AND been burned on bringing in the likes of RJ, Pavano, Wright, et al. But, it's pretty evident this 90% had no idea who this Johan Santana character was if they were wanting to keep two mid-level pitchers instead of bring in one of the greatest pitchers of this generation who's only 29 and upon whom a franchise could build around for the next 5-10 years.Again, I'd like to know how stupid Hank feels about this now.Thanks for the link. I'll never visit it again.

Do we know what the final offer was? Melky/Hughes/Kennedy ?I think even here the opinions were mixed.But, there's a long way to go and I do think the belief was that next year they would get their Ace pitcher without giving up prospects and still have Melky/Kennedy/Hughes....For this year, I feel the belief was, and I still agree, that the pitching can't be as bad as last year's start to the year with guys off the street.. It's close but, I'll take these guys over Pavano, Igawa, Rasner and whoever else.Either way - If this offense doesn't light up the scoreboard and the team as a whole doesn't stay damn healthy, then there was pretty much no shot no matter what way they went for this year....And I'm not sure how stupid Hank can feel - Isn't he the one who wanted the deal while just about everyone else in the organization talked him out of it? Didn't he say stuff like "Well this BETTER work out then"?

Unfortunately, I think crazy Hank didn't have his feet settled by that point and didn't swing around as much weight as he would if the deal were on the table now. I think M/K/H were involved, and I'd have done that deal in a heartbeat. They should have done that AND prepared Joba for the starting role at the back end of the rotation. Johan, Wang, Pettite, Joba, Rasner(?) would have given us 3/4 high quality starts each outing, while developing Rasner. Melky's a nice player. I like him just fine. But, he's not a franchise guy by any stretch, and we would have been just fine plucking someone from FA or developing that position even further from within house. The point is, this whole "what if" about Santana going down with an injury is no different than with Hughes/Kennedy or whatever. That's always the risk you take. But, you don't dismiss getting an ARod or Beckett or Miggy on your team because you're worried about injury. LHP as dominant as Santana is--and as much in his prime as he is--is an irreplaceable commodity. Not only do they not grow on trees, but you find them only once or twice in a generation. You HAVE to make that deal. And, give up what? A dime-a-dozen starter in Kennedy, a serviceable CF, and a pretty decent SP in Hughes? Good grief, give me that trade any day of the week. Resources (i.e., $) are a relative non-issue...it's not as if the Yanks operate in a deficit, financially, nor do they work under a salary cap. In '09, they will be released of substantial financial burdens, as well, so the argument that money was the issue is moot--or, at least should have been. I think the owner of this team would agree on that point.Our history of signing high-priced FAs is mixed, with some good, some not so good results. ARod clearly has been worth every penny and then some. Clemens Part I was worth it, while Clemens Part II was a disaster. Pavano, RJ, Giambi, et al. have been pretty awful. But, I don't think a team like the Yanks can afford to get all skittish about making those types of mistakes. So long as they continue to put forth a good team, they will continue to put butts in seats and make the revenue to offset the costs. By dismissing the opportunity to get Johan, they are taking a flyer on 3 young kids, all of whom have limited ceilings compared to the guy they could have had. This puts them in the pattern that shady wants, which is to rebuild. Around what? Hughes is the only guy worth considering here, as he has the brightest future we think. But, we don't know for sure how high that ceiling is. Kennedy and Melky? I'm sorry, but I don't see it. I don't see how that is really worth rebuilding around, reducing the enthusiasm of the fan base, and mortgaging a pretty solid team (with Johan) in the hopes that our mediocre team can strive for something better than mediocrity in 2 to 3 years.

 

[cobalt_27]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.

If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.

You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

Oh dear god. Clearly not the most intelligent source of commentary from fans if they were all devouring the Hughes/Kennedy hype. Pretty typical of some fans of most teams out there to over-value their own product; especially if it's produced the likes of Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, et al. AND been burned on bringing in the likes of RJ, Pavano, Wright, et al. But, it's pretty evident this 90% had no idea who this Johan Santana character was if they were wanting to keep two mid-level pitchers instead of bring in one of the greatest pitchers of this generation who's only 29 and upon whom a franchise could build around for the next 5-10 years.

Again, I'd like to know how stupid Hank feels about this now.

Thanks for the link. I'll never visit it again.

I'm as frustrated as anyone, but lets be realistic here, Johan is three starts into his season, if he goes down this year, next year, at what point do keeping the prospects and that 149 million, make the deal make sense? My issues are more on his side of the ledger than the Yankee kids. To give up all of them AND pay him was always the issue there.We're in chapter one of this story, hell, we might still be in the table of contents, there's a lot of tale left to be told.

I hear what you're saying. But, let's be honest...Johan has given a helluva lot more in his sample size than three starts into this season. I'd say, given his body of work and health history, I'm completely comfortable with investing $150m on this guy and letting the kids work out their careers elsewhere.Much of the tale is left to be told, I agree. But, I don't see anything in H/K/M that would help me even imagine a scenario where we would regret it if we let them go for Johan. Hughes is the only one that would give me pause. The other two...? Seriously?

 

[Liquid Tension]

The playoffs are absolutely a crap shoot.

Not really.Baseball Prospectus found that there are three things that most successful playoff teams have in common:A power pitching staff, as measured by normalized strikeout rate. A good closer, as measured by WXRL. A good defense, as measured by FRAA.

Secret Sauce Ranking of Playoff Teams since 1969				  Rank Among 208 Playoff TeamsYear Team		FRAA	EqK9   WXRL  Avg Rank	 Result2007 Red Sox	  21	  10	 51	 27.3	   Won World Series1990 Reds		 31.5	15.5   40.5   29.2	   Won World Series2001 D'backs	  48	  15.5   40.5   34.7	   Won World Series1998 Yankees	  13	  68	 24	 35.0	   Won World Series1984 Tigers	   42.5	68	  1	 37.2	   Won World Series1998 Red Sox	  59.5	55.5   11	 42.0	   Lost in ALDS1979 Pirates	  42.5	68	 21	 43.8	   Won World Series2006 Twins	   112	  22	 19	 51.0	   Lost in ALDS1995 Indians	  78	  68	 12	 52.7	   Lost in World Series1999 Indians	  75	  22	 62	 53.0	   Lost in ALDS

Baseball prospectus is great!However, this is not necessarily a predictor of outcomes. Like any statistical study if you know the outcomes you can setup the variables to give you an increased chance to find out "why" it happened. We had a similar discussion in the shark pool about 400 carries for RB's and the decline afterward (of course you can expect a return to the norm after being a few standard deviations above the norm) after a great season.As an example you could find that the team that hit best with RISP in the postseason win more. If you are trying to predict from the regular season you could look at runs scored and runs allowed and it may be just as valuable? Please note that I am not discrediting BP as I said I really like their work, but as I mentioned in the above, you can create a subset of data that fits a hypothesis and not taking offense into account at all seems very suspect considering one could argue that scoring runs is more valuable than pitching (by itself)

 

[Liquid Tension]

For this year, I feel the belief was, and I still agree, that the pitching can't be as bad as last year's start to the year with guys off the street.. It's close but, I'll take these guys over Pavano, Igawa, Rasner and whoever else.Either way - If this offense doesn't light up the scoreboard and the team as a whole doesn't stay damn healthy, then there was pretty much no shot no matter what way they went for this year....

ReaperI agree with Reaper here. These guys will not keep pitching like they have and they will get better. Our offense needs to be a top 3 offense and be near the top for us to have a shot at the playoffs. I think they will, but, obviously, if Hughes and Kennedy continue to put up an 8 ERA the Yanks will not go anywhere...

 

[Liquid Tension]

I agree that the Santana deal is in its VERY early stages and it is unfair to say that NOT doing it was a disaster at this point.

My feeling for the Yanks is that when you have an opportunity to get the best or one of the best at a position you grab him and fill in the rest with your large payroll and farm team. this is why I was in favor of the Santana deal.

However, (and I freely admit that I hedged my bet here), I had not seen enough of Hughes to know what kind of pitcher he was. I never saw him hit 95 yet everything I read said that he does throw 95 but his hamstring injury prevented him from throwing 95. I said if he does throw 95 I could see why the Yanks would be hesitant on trading him. There was also a little concern that Santana didn't have a dominant 2nd half last year (around a 4 ERA) and that he might have hurt his arm after a high pitch count game. Items like this WE are not privy to scouting reports about velocity drops etc, and honestly I did not see many Santana starts unless he faced the Yanks.

That being said, I felt Santana was THE best pitcher in baseball before 2007 and if it was trading those 3 for Santana I would do the deal.

In conclusion, we have our young guys and hopefully all 3 will be good contributors, but it is too early to say NOT doing the deal was a disaster even if right now you probably would want to do the deal.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I think its a bit early to give up on Hughes. Hes only 21 years old. That being said it doesnt look like he can help us this year. Maybe we should send him down to AAA to work on his changeup. Anyway, I said at the beginning of this year that I can live with a rebuilding year as long as those guys develop.

It's really too bad that we chose to rebuild around these guys than to rebuild around Johann.

Talk about jumping ship early. Good riddance

You're the one all geeked up about tanking this season so we can rebuild. Strangely, you've evaluated it somehow that it would be better to rebuild around Ian Kennedy than it would be Johann Santana. How else should we evaluate your Yankee homerism? I'm a fan of the team, but I can at least see through the stupidity of my team's general manager and ownership.

We're building around Hughes & Chamberlain. There's no proof that Cashman turned down Kennedy for Santana as thats just a bit too hard for me to believe. Why do you keep insisting the Yanks are builing around Kennedy? If he pitches well itll be a bonus because most people think Hughes & Chamberlain will be top starters. It might not come this year which was a possibility from the beginning. But if they become top starters this team will be good for the next 10 years. How could you not be excited by that?

It was widely reported by numerous sources that the Yanks were willing to deal Hughes for Santana, but the Twins were insisting that we include Kennedy in the deal. I, along with hordes of Yankee fans (excluding you), were imploring them to "TAKE IT! TAKE IT!" But, they declined.Thus, they were in a position to land Santana and were already conceding Hughes, but Kennedy was the deal breaker. The deciding factor came down to our reluctance to get rid of Kennedy, god forbid. Ultimately, we chose Kennedy over Santana. Totally inexcusable.

If Hank Steinbrenner wants to talk about people being "stupid," he should start right here. Johann, Wang, Chamberlain, Pettite, Mussina and we're a playoff team. And, we can build for the future for the next 5 years while Johann continues his brilliance. But, no. We were stupid to walk away from the table (and how we walked away was even more absurd.

You seem to be the only Yankee fan I've seen who, not only isn't still seething from the insanity of this equation, but is also happy to seem them suck this year on the off-chance that Hughes/Kennedy turn into quality pitchers. If there was ever a time for you to be critical of Yankee management, this would be the time.

Goto NYYFans.com forums. The majority of the fans there (about 90%) were against dealing Hughes & Kennedy for Johan. You need to open your eyes more.

Oh dear god. Clearly not the most intelligent source of commentary from fans if they were all devouring the Hughes/Kennedy hype. Pretty typical of some fans of most teams out there to over-value their own product; especially if it's produced the likes of Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, et al. AND been burned on bringing in the likes of RJ, Pavano, Wright, et al. But, it's pretty evident this 90% had no idea who this Johan Santana character was if they were wanting to keep two mid-level pitchers instead of bring in one of the greatest pitchers of this generation who's only 29 and upon whom a franchise could build around for the next 5-10 years.

Again, I'd like to know how stupid Hank feels about this now.

Thanks for the link. I'll never visit it again.

I'm as frustrated as anyone, but lets be realistic here, Johan is three starts into his season, if he goes down this year, next year, at what point do keeping the prospects and that 149 million, make the deal make sense? My issues are more on his side of the ledger than the Yankee kids. To give up all of them AND pay him was always the issue there.We're in chapter one of this story, hell, we might still be in the table of contents, there's a lot of tale left to be told.

I hear what you're saying. But, let's be honest...Johan has given a helluva lot more in his sample size than three starts into this season. I'd say, given his body of work and health history, I'm completely comfortable with investing $150m on this guy and letting the kids work out their careers elsewhere.Much of the tale is left to be told, I agree. But, I don't see anything in H/K/M that would help me even imagine a scenario where we would regret it if we let them go for Johan. Hughes is the only one that would give me pause. The other two...? Seriously?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Nice job by Mussina tonight and it was good to see Posada hit some rockets. Rivera had excellent control and his cutter had real good movement.

 

[shadyridr]

Mussina has kept the Yanks in 4 of 5 games hes pitched. Hughes & Kennedy have kept the Yanks in 2 of 7.

 

[Liquid Tension]

A couple quick points about the WS loss.

1) Girardi needs to always bunt Jose Molina if he is up with 1st and 2nd with nobody out in a game that is close.

2) I was surprised that Ozzie let Linebrink pitch to Giambi with the bases loaded. He got him out but then Ozzie started Logan the next inning…that was odd

3) Molina calls for too many breaking balls IMO. I thought Joba should have been throwing more fastballs and (I was at the game) I said to the people in my suite that they should throw more fastballs. Then on a slider, Quinten hits a double

4) I thought it was a no brainer to walk Crede in the 9th inning. I was very surprised that they pitched to him. Of course, when they got 2 strikes, as I said go after him. The first 2 strikes on Crede were on fastballs and I called for a high fastball. They did throw a fastball but it was outside and high. I still wanted the high fastball, but instead they threw yet another slider and it was game over (after a weak throw by Melky)

5) I like Melky's arm, but he needs to get rid of the ball much quicker. The other night he took SIX steps before throwing and that will not get it done. Every step he takes allows the runner to take one as well. You don’t see catchers take any more than 2 and many times one; that is because they simply can’t take more if they want to throw anyone out. As an example, Manny gets a lot of assists basically because he gets rid if the ball quickly.

 

[Liquid Tension]

A couple quick points about the WS loss.1) Girardi needs to always bunt Jose Molina if he is up with 1st and 2nd with nobody out in a game that is close.2) I was surprised that Ozzie let Linebrink pitch to Giambi with the bases loaded. He got him out but then Ozzie started Logan the next inning…that was odd3) Molina calls for too many breaking balls IMO. I thought Joba should have been throwing more fastballs and (I was at the game) I said to the people in my suite that they should throw more fastballs. Then on a slider, Quinten hits a double4) I thought it was a no brainer to walk Crede in the 9th inning. I was very surprised that they pitched to him. Of course, when they got 2 strikes, as I said go after him. The first 2 strikes on Crede were on fastballs and I called for a high fastball. They did throw a fastball but it was outside and high. I still wanted the high fastball, but instead they threw yet another slider and it was game over (after a weak throw by Melky)5) I like Melky's arm, but he needs to get rid of the ball much quicker. The other night he took SIX steps before throwing and that will not get it done. Every step he takes allows the runner to take one as well. You don’t see catchers take any more than 2 and many times one; that is because they simply can’t take more if they want to throw anyone out. As an example, Manny gets a lot of assists basically because he gets rid if the ball quickly.

I wanted to add that I thought the 2-0 strike call to Posada was a terrible call that really changed the game. Instead of 3-0 with 1st and 2nd and 1 out, the count was 2-1 and Posada got jammed on the next pitch and hit into a DP.Finally, many people were critical of Girardi for taking Hughes out, but I am not going to kill him for that. I would imagine that he felt that Hughes pitched well and rather than risk sending him out there where he might be stiff, he figured he would build some confidence off of a good, albeit short performance.

 

[shadyridr]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

Yeah, they said that the recommendation is to have season ending surgery...that really stinks for the Yanks.

 

[Capella]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

Yeah, they said that the recommendation is to have season ending surgery...that really stinks for the Yanks.

 

[Michael Brown]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

Yeah, they said that the recommendation is to have season ending surgery...that really stinks for the Yanks.

Poor form

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I'll be at the games on Wednesday and Thursday. Go kitties!

 

[Capella]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

Yeah, they said that the recommendation is to have season ending surgery...that really stinks for the Yanks.

Poor form

Excuse me if I haven't made this clear before. #### the Yankees.

 

[shadyridr]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

Yeah, they said that the recommendation is to have season ending surgery...that really stinks for the Yanks.

Poor form

Excuse me if I haven't made this clear before. #### the Yankees.

Ive never known you to root for injuries before. Oh well tells us alot about you

 

[Capella]

Brian Bruney was placed on the DL with the dreaded Lis-Franc fracture.

Yeah, they said that the recommendation is to have season ending surgery...that really stinks for the Yanks.

Poor form

Excuse me if I haven't made this clear before. #### the Yankees.

Ive never known you to root for injuries before. Oh well tells us alot about you

Not rooting for injuries, just against the Yankees.Please refer to my prior post for further clarification.

 

[Liquid Tension]

No analysis about the great pitching duel?

Both pitcher's were wheeling and dealing. Wang worked in a lot more sliders than normal

 

[shadyridr]

No analysis about the great pitching duel? Both pitcher's were wheeling and dealing. Wang worked in a lot more sliders than normal

When Wang's slider is on he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. Unfortunately his slider only seems to be working 5 starts a year.

 

[yankeebrat]

What is so funny?

 

[Liquid Tension]

No analysis about the great pitching duel? Both pitcher's were wheeling and dealing. Wang worked in a lot more sliders than normal

When Wang's slider is on he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. Unfortunately his slider only seems to be working 5 starts a year.

This is true, but I am hopeful that the Yankees and Wang have worked on using other pitches more. You can see him taking more off from time to time and those subtle changes should continue to pay dividends.The Yankees have pushed through a tough stretch and have endured poor starting pitching from their rookies and HORRIBLE hitting with RISP to stay within striking distance. While Rivera won't continue to be perfect most of the Yankees are under performing so things are looking pretty good as you expect the cream to rise. ARod's quad and Posada being out have some huge alarms though. Posada is SO valuable and I think people are now seeing why Molina is nothing other than a backup (he is an AWFUL hitter).Jeter has been very bad as well and he continues to hack at every first pitch and not hot it well; his OBP is below .300

 

[wilked]

lolHughes

 

[Raider Nation]

Can we please rewind a few months and trade the kid for Santana?

 

[Liquid Tension]

I know the Yanks started a rookie catcher, but someone must help him in calling a game. Hughes allows 5 runs before he ever threw a pitch that wasn’t a fastball or curve. The discrepancy between the two pitches is too great (20 MPH) to not throw in a slider or his change. The two pitches that area easiest to diagnose the difference are the Curve and the Fastball (Knuckleball doesn’t count). The Yankees helped Hughes fail tonight even though Hughes did not have good command of his fastball. Either way he MUST throw all of his pitches. BTW, Hughes didn’t break 91 by my reading on the gun. Where is that 94-95 we were told about?

It is mind boggling how bad this team is with runners in scoring position. The Yankees left 13 guys on base and went until the 9th inning before they got ONE hit with a RISP. It is very disheartening.

I like the way Ohlendorf worked his pitches. Not only did he throw a couple different types of fastballs (he turns one over and the other has left to right movement) he worked in a good curve and slider. He was using the low and inside part of the plate to lefties extremely well throwing a slider down and in and then using the fastball breaking back over the plate. His fastball was anywhere from 90-94 depending on how he threw it.

Nice to see Edwin Ramirez (aka Starvin Marvin) back in the fold as I think he could be a good change of pace reliever and he is clearly a guy who can strike people out with that change up. The key for him is to work in the slider from time to time and spot the fastball which he must throw.

The lineup is punchless with Cano in a horrific funk and Jeter struggling along with Posada and ARod out.

 

[gump]

How long until Girardi is on the hot seat?

 

[Raider Nation]

Man, this is shaping up to be a LONG year.

The only thing I have left to hope for in this baseball season is Boston not winning the World Series.

 

[Reaper]

How long until Girardi is on the hot seat?

I'd say 4-5 years.....