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**Official YANKEES 2009 Thread** (1 Viewer)

jobarules said:
Also, remember ARod hit a few huge HRs off Papelbon and Schilling late in games in recent years.
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We all have our own selective memory...it is a flaw in humans...As an ex player, I was on a forum with Bill James and a bunch of guys who were more SABR folks and we were discussing clutch ability (not clutch performances). There are two schools, one that is a stat person and one that is the "scout" person. As a player, most are scout people, I was a little of both but more on the scout side a bunch of years ago. In this case I was on the side of "you can't tell me some players don;t react to pressure differently and that there aren't clutch (and non clutch) players. After an exhaustive "study" and numerous back and forths, I had to adjust my opinion to "if there is a such thing as clutch ability, it is extremely minimal and rare and therefore not much of an ability."Bernie Williams was used for a lot of studies because he had so many postseason plate appearances (544). His postseason numbers were just slightly below his regular season numbers (.851-.858). He struggled in the WS with a .677 OPS, but did really well in the ALCS. Some of this can be contributed to better pitching in the WS possibly?At the end of the day, ignorant statements like I made saying "I don't care what you tell me" are ones that are incorrect because then you are not listening or open to finding the truth. It was a good learning experience for me.
 
Liquid Tension said:
ARod has not performed at his elite level in his career postseason, but his OPS of .844 is about the same as Jeter's and better than most and he has been excellent in the ALCS (a more clutch spot than the ALDS) with an OPS of 1.024.
Click to expand...
Right. But, ARod's regular season OPS is .966 (vs .844 postseason). In addition, his regular season 2-out RISP BA is .272 over his career. Meanwhile, Jeter's OPS numbers are stunningly similar comparing regular (.845) and postseason (.846 post). For his career, he hits .320 with 2-outs and RISP.

You say it's been proven time and time again that there is no such thing as clutch players. To that, I say, you are relying way too much on inadequate measurements and not enough on common sense. Of course there are clutch players, just as much as there are chokers in all sports. This is a psychology question, really. There are some people who have the mental make up to perform at and above their normal levels in crucial situations. By the same token, there are those who repeatedly perform consistently below baseline in the most important situations.

The reason you often don't pick this up is because the measurements we use or the definition of clutch situations is probably inadequate. But, it doesn't make any sense if you just take a step back to say that there are no individual differences between how certain guys adjust to increased amounts of pressure.

 
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There is nothing - NOTHING - more frustrating in baseball than watching a pitcher who cannot throw strikes. Burnett last night, and Wang early tonight. I'd rather see ball after ball clanging off the Green Monster than see a guy get a free pass time and again.

 
Raider Nation said:
Nice outing. Can't ask much more of your starting pitcher than 2 2/3 innings.
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The Yankees ####ed this up from the beginning. They shouldve stretched Wang out (lol) in the minors. But NOOOooo instead they call him up to pitch in the pen. His stuff actually looked great he just had no command again. Now they are doing the same thing ####in with Hughes in the pen. Complete lunacy.
 
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Win or lose there are a few things I have to get off my chest: This is written after 8 innings.

Posada could have caught the play at home in fornt of the plate and tagged the runner out. For some inexplicable reason he fielded the ball on the plate!

Melky double clutches and then takes too long to throw and then throws inaccurate and we don’t get an out and he scores!

Swisher gets doubled up with nobody out so he had NO reason to run!

Swisher just misses the ball!

Did Jeter make a deal that he had to swing at the first 6 pitches he saw from Wakefield?

Many others swung too early in the count as well…news flash, knuckleball pitchers will walk batters

I think throwing a first pitch fastball to Lowell is never a good idea

I still don’t know why Wang is in the rotation and Hughes is in the pen. As I said before, Hughes didn’t deserve a demotion and Wang needed to do a lot more to earn his right back into the rotation.

Cano got called out on a pitch that just high, but it was at least a foot outside!

For someone who eschews the bunt as much as Giraridi, why in the world sac Gardner to 2nd with nobody out. LET GARDNER STEAL OR AT LEAST HIT AND RUN. That was stupid and a waste of an out.

OK, onto more nice things.

After Swisher got a terrible jump and actually leaned the wrong way he made a FANTASTIC catch.

Texiera was great and when you add Posada and Damon homers with Matsui getting on base a lot, it kept us in the game.

Written after the game: The 2-0 pitch to Posada being called a strike was another very bad and at a bad time bad call by the ump. Yankees are not making or getting their breaks.

It is OK folks…it seems worse than it is.

 
Liquid Tension said:
Win or lose there are a few things I have to get off my chest: This is written after 8 innings.

Posada could have caught the play at home in fornt of the plate and tagged the runner out. For some inexplicable reason he fielded the ball on the plate!

Melky double clutches and then takes too long to throw and then throws inaccurate and we don't get an out and he scores!

Swisher gets doubled up with nobody out so he had NO reason to run!

Swisher just misses the ball!

Did Jeter make a deal that he had to swing at the first 6 pitches he saw from Wakefield?

Many others swung too early in the count as well…news flash, knuckleball pitchers will walk batters

I think throwing a first pitch fastball to Lowell is never a good idea

I still don't know why Wang is in the rotation and Hughes is in the pen. As I said before, Hughes didn't deserve a demotion and Wang needed to do a lot more to earn his right back into the rotation.

Cano got called out on a pitch that just high, but it was at least a foot outside!

For someone who eschews the bunt as much as Giraridi, why in the world sac Gardner to 2nd with nobody out. LET GARDNER STEAL OR AT LEAST HIT AND RUN. That was stupid and a waste of an out.

OK, onto more nice things.

After Swisher got a terrible jump and actually leaned the wrong way he made a FANTASTIC catch.

Texiera was great and when you add Posada and Damon homers with Matsui getting on base a lot, it kept us in the game.

Written after the game: The 2-0 pitch to Posada being called a strike was another very bad and at a bad time bad call by the ump. Yankees are not making or getting their breaks.

It is OK folks…it seems worse than it is.
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You left out another Oh fer from A-Rod.Don't worry though... he'll hit a 4th inning HR next month against the Twins when we're up 8-0.

 
cobalt_27 said:
Liquid Tension said:
ARod has not performed at his elite level in his career postseason, but his OPS of .844 is about the same as Jeter's and better than most and he has been excellent in the ALCS (a more clutch spot than the ALDS) with an OPS of 1.024.
Click to expand...
Right. But, ARod's regular season OPS is .966 (vs .844 postseason). In addition, his regular season 2-out RISP BA is .272 over his career. Meanwhile, Jeter's OPS numbers are stunningly similar comparing regular (.845) and postseason (.846 post). For his career, he hits .320 with 2-outs and RISP.

You say it's been proven time and time again that there is no such thing as clutch players. To that, I say, you are relying way too much on inadequate measurements and not enough on common sense. Of course there are clutch players, just as much as there are chokers in all sports. This is a psychology question, really. There are some people who have the mental make up to perform at and above their normal levels in crucial situations. By the same token, there are those who repeatedly perform consistently below baseline in the most important situations.

The reason you often don't pick this up is because the measurements we use or the definition of clutch situations is probably inadequate. But, it doesn't make any sense if you just take a step back to say that there are no individual differences between how certain guys adjust to increased amounts of pressure.
Click to expand...
Actually, no, you are incorrect Cobalt. Remember I started on more your line of thinking and it is incorrect. Think about this...these guys were all studs (or at least very much close to that). These guys have been in pressure spots and had scouts watching and everyone watching them for a lot of time. To get where they are they played under pressure. I played at a high level in High school, was all state and an academic all American for a division 1 program in college. I was drafted and stayed in school after my junior year (I was a late pick so not a stud) and then got injured (back). Even if I did make it to the minors I might not have been good enough to make the majors. These guys are the cream of the crop, the clutch factor is VERY minimal on guys like this. Good players will get it done and weak players won't. The more postseason AB's a player gets the closer to their norm they are.The mental makeup part of what you wrote would have stopped these guys from making the majors.

 
Liquid Tension said:
cobalt_27 said:
Liquid Tension said:
ARod has not performed at his elite level in his career postseason, but his OPS of .844 is about the same as Jeter's and better than most and he has been excellent in the ALCS (a more clutch spot than the ALDS) with an OPS of 1.024.
Click to expand...
Right. But, ARod's regular season OPS is .966 (vs .844 postseason). In addition, his regular season 2-out RISP BA is .272 over his career. Meanwhile, Jeter's OPS numbers are stunningly similar comparing regular (.845) and postseason (.846 post). For his career, he hits .320 with 2-outs and RISP.

You say it's been proven time and time again that there is no such thing as clutch players. To that, I say, you are relying way too much on inadequate measurements and not enough on common sense. Of course there are clutch players, just as much as there are chokers in all sports. This is a psychology question, really. There are some people who have the mental make up to perform at and above their normal levels in crucial situations. By the same token, there are those who repeatedly perform consistently below baseline in the most important situations.

The reason you often don't pick this up is because the measurements we use or the definition of clutch situations is probably inadequate. But, it doesn't make any sense if you just take a step back to say that there are no individual differences between how certain guys adjust to increased amounts of pressure.
Click to expand...
Actually, no, you are incorrect Cobalt. Remember I started on more your line of thinking and it is incorrect. Think about this...these guys were all studs (or at least very much close to that). These guys have been in pressure spots and had scouts watching and everyone watching them for a lot of time. To get where they are they played under pressure. I played at a high level in High school, was all state and an academic all American for a division 1 program in college. I was drafted and stayed in school after my junior year (I was a late pick so not a stud) and then got injured (back). Even if I did make it to the minors I might not have been good enough to make the majors. These guys are the cream of the crop, the clutch factor is VERY minimal on guys like this. Good players will get it done and weak players won't. The more postseason AB's a player gets the closer to their norm they are.The mental makeup part of what you wrote would have stopped these guys from making the majors.
Click to expand...
On this level, there is definitely variability. I can't for a moment believe that you think the mental make up of all these guys is exactly the same. You don't think #### doesn't get into these guys's heads? You think it's all about physical ability and nothing more? I can't imagine that you played that long and advanced that far to believe this.Of course there are clutch players...and chokers.

 
**** sucking #### ####. Just got back from playing ball and was just about to flip the game on. Glad i didnt.

 
cobalt_27 said:
Liquid Tension said:
cobalt_27 said:
Liquid Tension said:
ARod has not performed at his elite level in his career postseason, but his OPS of .844 is about the same as Jeter's and better than most and he has been excellent in the ALCS (a more clutch spot than the ALDS) with an OPS of 1.024.
Click to expand...
Right. But, ARod's regular season OPS is .966 (vs .844 postseason). In addition, his regular season 2-out RISP BA is .272 over his career. Meanwhile, Jeter's OPS numbers are stunningly similar comparing regular (.845) and postseason (.846 post). For his career, he hits .320 with 2-outs and RISP.

You say it's been proven time and time again that there is no such thing as clutch players. To that, I say, you are relying way too much on inadequate measurements and not enough on common sense. Of course there are clutch players, just as much as there are chokers in all sports. This is a psychology question, really. There are some people who have the mental make up to perform at and above their normal levels in crucial situations. By the same token, there are those who repeatedly perform consistently below baseline in the most important situations.

The reason you often don't pick this up is because the measurements we use or the definition of clutch situations is probably inadequate. But, it doesn't make any sense if you just take a step back to say that there are no individual differences between how certain guys adjust to increased amounts of pressure.
Click to expand...
Actually, no, you are incorrect Cobalt. Remember I started on more your line of thinking and it is incorrect. Think about this...these guys were all studs (or at least very much close to that). These guys have been in pressure spots and had scouts watching and everyone watching them for a lot of time. To get where they are they played under pressure. I played at a high level in High school, was all state and an academic all American for a division 1 program in college. I was drafted and stayed in school after my junior year (I was a late pick so not a stud) and then got injured (back). Even if I did make it to the minors I might not have been good enough to make the majors. These guys are the cream of the crop, the clutch factor is VERY minimal on guys like this. Good players will get it done and weak players won't. The more postseason AB's a player gets the closer to their norm they are.The mental makeup part of what you wrote would have stopped these guys from making the majors.
Click to expand...
On this level, there is definitely variability. I can't for a moment believe that you think the mental make up of all these guys is exactly the same. You don't think #### doesn't get into these guys's heads? You think it's all about physical ability and nothing more? I can't imagine that you played that long and advanced that far to believe this.Of course there are clutch players...and chokers.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I thought that too...and I was wrong. If there are clutch players, how come you can't see it in the stats? If out of the entire population only 1% of the people show a stat variance that is NOT a choker or a clutch guy, that is a normal variance. If a guy is a choker, why can he be clutch one year and then suck the next? Could it be that over any 30 AB stretch guys are hot or not? YES!If ARod was a choker, how could he get such a huge hit tonight? How could he dominate the Minnesota series for us? how could he have MVP seasons twice while playing for the Yankees pressure cooker? How could he have great postseasons in Seattle?

There are clutch performance but the presence of clutch ability if there is any is TINY.

BTW, how come Tino (and a little bit Oneill) stunk so bad in the postseason yet people think they are clutch?

 
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Why in the world would Girardi not play Posada in a very big game when the games the next few days are the least important of the year. Yes, all National league games are the least important of the year, so don’t give me any nonsense about the Mets games mattering. It is illogical to rest Posada in this game. Also, when you have 1st and 2nd, THIS is the time to sacrifice if you don’t have any big hitters up. Finally, when Matsui is on base in the 8th inning, you pinch run for him; it doesn’t matter if you are up by 2 runs…you go for the throat.

8th inning, after Pedroia, CC had to come out. After the hanging change to Green you could have pulled the trigger, but I could see giving him another batter. But the Pedroia AB was proof he should have come out…I don’t care that Drew is a lefty…have some foresight and have Coke ready then..in fact, why not bring Rivera in there? Back to Pedroia, it was not such a great AB, CC missed almost every spot he was trying to get in that AB and that was more proof CC was done. Leaving him in for Drew was not a good idea. I think Girardi has been off in his decisions.

That was a very bad loss with all the opportunities early on. Oh, and while Melky had NO gripe, (he was struck out), the Red Sox complaining about pitches was a joke as the Yankees got rooked big time on a ton of pitches. I was going to write how the Yanks overcame horrible calls by the ump (including Youk being struck out before he singled in the 8th - that pitch was a strike all game long!), but they didn’t get it done.

Of course, people will say ARod is a choker, even though he had a huge hit, but because the Yankees lost, nobody will remember.

While much of it was self inflicted, the umps really made it more difficult to overcome and in 2 one run games that can be the difference…either way, it is time to lick our wounds and move on.

 
cobalt_27 said:
Raider Nation said:
They have our number in a big way this year.... especially mentally. No sense getting pissed about it anymore.
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LT was suggesting in the other thread that there's no such mental thing in the game. No chokers. No clutch.I beg to differ.
Click to expand...
Yeah, so now ARod is clutch and Sabbathia is a choker? :rolleyes: How about some perspective instead of reacting to everything?The Yankees came back and took the lead. the pitchers and Girardi didn't do the job...simple as that. We made very bad pitches and they took advantage of it. If the umps don't squeeze us, if CC doesn't hang a change and then make bad pitches to Pedroia and then hand another breaking ball to Drew, we make a nice comeback win.BTW, there could be a little bit of a mental block, but that is more about being in a groove or not being in a groove. I never said there wasn;t a such thing as hot streaks or a guy feeling well at the plate, but to say guys on this level are chokers or clutch is simply wrong and tons and tons of data support this. How many people think Pettitte is such a great postseason pitcher? Most everyone you talk to think he is great in the postseason. Check the stats. People have selective memory. i am done on this topic because I have spent a year reviewing it in detail. You can believe what you want.
 
Liquid Tension said:
cobalt_27 said:
Liquid Tension said:
cobalt_27 said:
Liquid Tension said:
ARod has not performed at his elite level in his career postseason, but his OPS of .844 is about the same as Jeter's and better than most and he has been excellent in the ALCS (a more clutch spot than the ALDS) with an OPS of 1.024.
Click to expand...
Right. But, ARod's regular season OPS is .966 (vs .844 postseason). In addition, his regular season 2-out RISP BA is .272 over his career. Meanwhile, Jeter's OPS numbers are stunningly similar comparing regular (.845) and postseason (.846 post). For his career, he hits .320 with 2-outs and RISP.

You say it's been proven time and time again that there is no such thing as clutch players. To that, I say, you are relying way too much on inadequate measurements and not enough on common sense. Of course there are clutch players, just as much as there are chokers in all sports. This is a psychology question, really. There are some people who have the mental make up to perform at and above their normal levels in crucial situations. By the same token, there are those who repeatedly perform consistently below baseline in the most important situations.

The reason you often don't pick this up is because the measurements we use or the definition of clutch situations is probably inadequate. But, it doesn't make any sense if you just take a step back to say that there are no individual differences between how certain guys adjust to increased amounts of pressure.
Click to expand...
Actually, no, you are incorrect Cobalt. Remember I started on more your line of thinking and it is incorrect. Think about this...these guys were all studs (or at least very much close to that). These guys have been in pressure spots and had scouts watching and everyone watching them for a lot of time. To get where they are they played under pressure. I played at a high level in High school, was all state and an academic all American for a division 1 program in college. I was drafted and stayed in school after my junior year (I was a late pick so not a stud) and then got injured (back). Even if I did make it to the minors I might not have been good enough to make the majors. These guys are the cream of the crop, the clutch factor is VERY minimal on guys like this. Good players will get it done and weak players won't. The more postseason AB's a player gets the closer to their norm they are.The mental makeup part of what you wrote would have stopped these guys from making the majors.
Click to expand...
On this level, there is definitely variability. I can't for a moment believe that you think the mental make up of all these guys is exactly the same. You don't think #### doesn't get into these guys's heads? You think it's all about physical ability and nothing more? I can't imagine that you played that long and advanced that far to believe this.Of course there are clutch players...and chokers.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I thought that too...and I was wrong. If there are clutch players, how come you can't see it in the stats? If out of the entire population only 1% of the people show a stat variance that is NOT a choker or a clutch guy, that is a normal variance. If a guy is a choker, why can he be clutch one year and then suck the next? Could it be that over any 30 AB stretch guys are hot or not? YES!If ARod was a choker, how could he get such a huge hit tonight? How could he dominate the Minnesota series for us? how could he have MVP seasons twice while playing for the Yankees pressure cooker? How could he have great postseasons in Seattle?

There are clutch performance but the presence of clutch ability if there is any is TINY.

BTW, how come Tino (and a little bit Oneill) stunk so bad in the postseason yet people think they are clutch?
Click to expand...
So, there's just not mental game baseball. I get it. I'll take it from someone who played a high level. You clearly have the expertise here. So, it's all physical talent. Got it. Thanks.
 
Liquid Tension said:
I was going to write how the Yanks overcame horrible calls by the ump (including Youk being struck out before he singled in the 8th - that pitch was a strike all game long!), but they didn't get it done.
Click to expand...
Much as I'd like to agree with you, that pitch was just off the plate inside. That's the least of my gripes tonight.
 
Just got home, second best regular season game at Fenway evah ($5 Schilling game walkoff win still #1).

 
OK that 8th inning was the maddest Ive ever been in a regular season game. Just aggravating. Girardi is a ####in moron. CC dominated all night and then leaves a changeup up to Nick Green. It was clear he was running on fumes. He shouldve taken him it out there. Then he cant put Pedrioa away in a phenomenal battle and he keeps him in to face Drew just cuz hes a lefty? Ugh. What a ####in disgrace. It probably wouldnt have mattered cuz the bullpen sucks anyway.

I think the first 5 games of the year the Sox were clearly better than the Yanks. But these last 3 games the Sox are clearly in their head. Yanks are making every mistake possible. I mean did Nick Swisher forget how to play baseball? We'll be fine in the long run but this was very aggravating.

Oh and of course everyone will forget about the clutch hit ARod got.

 
jobarules said:
Oh and of course everyone will forget about the clutch hit ARod got.
Click to expand...
:lmao:That was a nice stroke. Could see a bit of pressure lifted off him as he came into 2nd two. Guy was amped. I know he brings a lot of it on himself but I sorta feel bad for him sometimes. Dude is arguably the best player of our time, typically says all the right things, has a pretty clean image for the most part, and everyone hates him.
 
[icon] said:
jobarules said:
Oh and of course everyone will forget about the clutch hit ARod got.
Click to expand...
:thumbup: That was a nice stroke. Could see a bit of pressure lifted off him as he came into 2nd two. Guy was amped. I know he brings a lot of it on himself but I sorta feel bad for him sometimes. Dude is arguably the best player of our time, typically says all the right things, has a pretty clean image for the most part, and everyone hates him.
Click to expand...
:lmao:
 
Sammy3469 said:
[icon] said:
jobarules said:
Oh and of course everyone will forget about the clutch hit ARod got.
Click to expand...
:yes: That was a nice stroke. Could see a bit of pressure lifted off him as he came into 2nd two. Guy was amped. I know he brings a lot of it on himself but I sorta feel bad for him sometimes. Dude is arguably the best player of our time, typically says all the right things, has a pretty clean image for the most part, and everyone hates him.
Click to expand...
:hifive:
Click to expand...
before this year
 
BTW I also wanted to mention that I believe we are witnessing the evolution of Phil Hughes right before our eyes. I just wish he was available last night to pitch the eighth. Id give Wang another shot (believe it or not I like the fact that the Yanks are being very patient here) but if he continues to falter I think Hughes could be dominant down the stretch in the rotation.

 
jobarules said:
BTW I also wanted to mention that I believe we are witnessing the evolution of Phil Hughes right before our eyes. I just wish he was available last night to pitch the eighth. Id give Wang another shot (believe it or not I like the fact that the Yanks are being very patient here) but if he continues to falter I think Hughes could be dominant down the stretch in the rotation.
Click to expand...
I said it before Wang started again, but I don;t understand why Wang can't pitch in relief? As I stated, he has one excellent pitch and that is usually reserved for relievers. To be a good starter you need 2 excellent pitches or a repertoire. Now, I will agree that Wang has been a good starter, but I feel the better hitting teams will handle a one pitch pitcher. I would most definitely get him back in the rotation, but while Hughes was pitching well and Wang was still getting his feet underneath him why mess with that? Not only was it unfair to Hughes, it was premature for the Yanks.
 
jobarules said:
BTW I also wanted to mention that I believe we are witnessing the evolution of Phil Hughes right before our eyes. I just wish he was available last night to pitch the eighth. Id give Wang another shot (believe it or not I like the fact that the Yanks are being very patient here) but if he continues to falter I think Hughes could be dominant down the stretch in the rotation.
Click to expand...
I have nothhing against Hughes and think he may evolve into a decent pitcher. That being said . . . DOMINANT? This year?He's had a 6.21 ERA and 1.56 WHIP since May 4th.
 
David Yudkin said:
jobarules said:
BTW I also wanted to mention that I believe we are witnessing the evolution of Phil Hughes right before our eyes. I just wish he was available last night to pitch the eighth. Id give Wang another shot (believe it or not I like the fact that the Yanks are being very patient here) but if he continues to falter I think Hughes could be dominant down the stretch in the rotation.
Click to expand...
I have nothhing against Hughes and think he may evolve into a decent pitcher. That being said . . . DOMINANT? This year?He's had a 6.21 ERA and 1.56 WHIP since May 4th.
Click to expand...
Those are Dominant #'sCompared to Wangs.
 
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