**Official YANKEES 2009 Thread** (2 Viewers)

[jobarules]

Buster Olney devoted a few paragraphs to bullpen use and he mentioned how Torre ran through his relievers.He cited an anonymous player pleading with the GM of another team to trade for him so he could get away from Torres.Any Yankee homers have any idea which player this might have been.

Would be funny if it was Proctor since Torre ended up going out there.

 

[Wrigley]

A-Rod is tired(bet he is)

Alex Rodriguez was spotted with Kate Hudson in a Miami night club at 2:30am on Saturday morning.Rodriguez's complaints of "fatigue" have already drawn criticism, and now the New York-based media is going to have an absolute field day. Players are allowed to have a social life, but when it affects their play there's obviously going to be a problem. A-Rod is batting .212/.370/.462 with nine homers and 26 RBI since returning from hip surgery. He's expected to return to the starting lineup Sunday.

 

[Ed Wood]

Decades-long Yankee fan who doesn't have much use for baseball anymore because of steroids...

Anyway, caught the last 3 innings last night on MLB Network. Must have been frustrating for Girardi to pull all the right strings in those innings and end up hanging himself.

Top of the eighth, he pinch hits Matsui, who singles. Replaces him with Gardner, who steals second. Pinch hits ARod who walks. Runners on first and second, nobody out, down 2-1, Jeter up. Looks good. Jeter bounces into double play. Next guy makes an out.

On the pitching side, Girardi replaced an effective Burnett with Coke to play a matchup. Coke gets his guys. Then Hughes throws a lights out ninth.

Still lose.

Like I said, I don't watch much baseball anymore but after seeing Hughes in the ninth, I think they need to get him in the rotation...

 

[Balco]

Decades-long Yankee fan who doesn't have much use for baseball anymore because of steroids...

Anyway, caught the last 3 innings last night on MLB Network. Must have been frustrating for Girardi to pull all the right strings in those innings and end up hanging himself.

Top of the eighth, he pinch hits Matsui, who singles. Replaces him with Gardner, who steals second. Pinch hits ARod who walks. Runners on first and second, nobody out, down 2-1, Jeter up. Looks good. Jeter bounces into double play. Next guy makes an out.

On the pitching side, Girardi replaced an effective Burnett with Coke to play a matchup. Coke gets his guys. Then Hughes throws a lights out ninth.

Still lose.

Like I said, I don't watch much baseball anymore but after seeing Hughes in the ninth, I think they need to get him in the rotation...

No idea what the Yankees are doing here. They have the wrong young arm in the pen (Chamberlain should be there, and he should stay there). Hughes has talent, and the Yanks need him to work as a starter and take his lumps if need be (similar to Jeremy Bonderman did with the Tigers).

 

[cobalt_27]

A-Rod is tired(bet he is)

Alex Rodriguez was spotted with Kate Hudson in a Miami night club at 2:30am on Saturday morning.Rodriguez's complaints of "fatigue" have already drawn criticism, and now the New York-based media is going to have an absolute field day. Players are allowed to have a social life, but when it affects their play there's obviously going to be a problem. A-Rod is batting .212/.370/.462 with nine homers and 26 RBI since returning from hip surgery. He's expected to return to the starting lineup Sunday.

Yup. Clearly don't know if this is true or not. But, it is worth noting that the lineup card originally had him in Saturday's game, and Girardi made him a late scratch.Whatever the case, A-Rod's a complete tool. But, he's our tool, I guess, for quite a while longer. Hope he can recreate himself into a good singles hitter at some point soon.

 

[jobarules]

:crickets:

For some reason the team is going thru a teamwide slump. Every team goes thru it. Plus Josh Johnson is good. Not worried at all. The pitching is the one concern for the Yanks not the offense.

 

[jobarules]

Decades-long Yankee fan who doesn't have much use for baseball anymore because of steroids...

Anyway, caught the last 3 innings last night on MLB Network. Must have been frustrating for Girardi to pull all the right strings in those innings and end up hanging himself.

Top of the eighth, he pinch hits Matsui, who singles. Replaces him with Gardner, who steals second. Pinch hits ARod who walks. Runners on first and second, nobody out, down 2-1, Jeter up. Looks good. Jeter bounces into double play. Next guy makes an out.

On the pitching side, Girardi replaced an effective Burnett with Coke to play a matchup. Coke gets his guys. Then Hughes throws a lights out ninth.

Still lose.

Like I said, I don't watch much baseball anymore but after seeing Hughes in the ninth, I think they need to get him in the rotation...

No idea what the Yankees are doing here. They have the wrong young arm in the pen (Chamberlain should be there, and he should stay there). Hughes has talent, and the Yanks need him to work as a starter and take his lumps if need be (similar to Jeremy Bonderman did with the Tigers).

If Chamberlain keeps throwing 92 mph and walking everyone he sucks anywhere. Not sure whats up with him but call me concerned.

 

[jobarules]

A-Rod is tired(bet he is)

Alex Rodriguez was spotted with Kate Hudson in a Miami night club at 2:30am on Saturday morning.

Rodriguez's complaints of "fatigue" have already drawn criticism, and now the New York-based media is going to have an absolute field day. Players are allowed to have a social life, but when it affects their play there's obviously going to be a problem. A-Rod is batting .212/.370/.462 with nine homers and 26 RBI since returning from hip surgery. He's expected to return to the starting lineup Sunday.

Yup. Clearly don't know if this is true or not. But, it is worth noting that the lineup card originally had him in Saturday's game, and Girardi made him a late scratch.Whatever the case, A-Rod's a complete tool. But, he's our tool, I guess, for quite a while longer. Hope he can recreate himself into a good singles hitter at some point soon.

Pretty sure that was Friday's game. Always drama with this guy. Hard to defend him. Just hope he doesnt start declining sooner than I thought he would due to steroids.

 

[jobarules]

Like I said, I don't watch much baseball anymore but after seeing Hughes in the ninth, I think they need to get him in the rotation...

Hughes has looked absolutely dominant out of the pen. When hes in the rotation he doesnt look as good (doesnt throw as hard, lacks command, doesnt come right after hitters, etc). Dont get me wrong I agree with you that he belongs in the rotation but just saying.

 

[jobarules]

You see this is the kind of nonsense I hate about ARod coverage. This is straight out of the NY Post:

The rest hasn't seemed to do much good: In his pinch-hit cameo last night, he merely drew a walk.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

who is having a worse season without roids? big papi or a-roid?

 

[cobalt_27]

A-Rod is tired(bet he is)

Alex Rodriguez was spotted with Kate Hudson in a Miami night club at 2:30am on Saturday morning.

Rodriguez's complaints of "fatigue" have already drawn criticism, and now the New York-based media is going to have an absolute field day. Players are allowed to have a social life, but when it affects their play there's obviously going to be a problem. A-Rod is batting .212/.370/.462 with nine homers and 26 RBI since returning from hip surgery. He's expected to return to the starting lineup Sunday.

Yup. Clearly don't know if this is true or not. But, it is worth noting that the lineup card originally had him in Saturday's game, and Girardi made him a late scratch.Whatever the case, A-Rod's a complete tool. But, he's our tool, I guess, for quite a while longer. Hope he can recreate himself into a good singles hitter at some point soon.

Pretty sure that was Friday's game. Always drama with this guy. Hard to defend him. Just hope he doesnt start declining sooner than I thought he would due to steroids.

Oh, that's right. I was driving up to Charleston when I heard that during the game. Two days off Friday and Saturday.I suspect he'll retain a portion of his power numbers and a pronounced effect will be seen on his average. We've seen this before...Giambi, Boone, Palmeiro, Caminiti, Bonds, etc...guys just don't have the same bat speed and can't dominate the point of attack as they could when they were on juiced.

 

[Finless]

I think it's pretty clear A-Rod has been juicing his entire career.

 

[cobalt_27]

I think it's pretty clear A-Rod has been juicing his entire career.

I think there's very few people who actually believed his whole story when it first came out and I'm sure most people would agree here.

Depends on which story you're talking about.Oh wait. He was unconvincing with each iteration of his story.

And to think...we were thiiii-i-i-s close to having A-Rod sign with the BoSox and subsequently sinking them in the playoffs when it mattered the most. Of course, they would also be stuck with a gazillion dollar multi-year contract for the skinny-can't-get-around-on-a-pitch A-Rod. This ####### close. What a shame.

Nope. Like Giambi, we'll spend years trying to figure out how to get him "back on track" when the answer will be plain and simple: he needs steroids.

 

[jobarules]

I dunno about his whole career but I find it hard to believe he only did it for those 3 years in Texas.

 

[jobarules]

I think it's pretty clear A-Rod has been juicing his entire career.

I think there's very few people who actually believed his whole story when it first came out and I'm sure most people would agree here.

Depends on which story you're talking about.Oh wait. He was unconvincing with each iteration of his story.

And to think...we were thiiii-i-i-s close to having A-Rod sign with the BoSox and subsequently sinking them in the playoffs when it mattered the most. Of course, they would also be stuck with a gazillion dollar multi-year contract for the skinny-can't-get-around-on-a-pitch A-Rod. This ####### close. What a shame.

Nope. Like Giambi, we'll spend years trying to figure out how to get him "back on track" when the answer will be plain and simple: he needs steroids.

What makes you think Sox wouldve resigned him after he opted out? They seem smarter than that. Yanks wouldve probably swooped in and offered him the same giant deal we're stuck with anyway.

 

[Wrigley]

I dunno about his whole career but I find it hard to believe he only did it for those 3 years in Texas.

If I was a betting man, I would bet he started his Jr. year of HS, and just stopped this past year.

 

[Sammy3469]

I think it's pretty clear A-Rod has been juicing his entire career.

I think there's very few people who actually believed his whole story when it first came out and I'm sure most people would agree here.

Depends on which story you're talking about.Oh wait. He was unconvincing with each iteration of his story.

And to think...we were thiiii-i-i-s close to having A-Rod sign with the BoSox and subsequently sinking them in the playoffs when it mattered the most. Of course, they would also be stuck with a gazillion dollar multi-year contract for the skinny-can't-get-around-on-a-pitch A-Rod. This ####### close. What a shame.

Nope. Like Giambi, we'll spend years trying to figure out how to get him "back on track" when the answer will be plain and simple: he needs steroids.

What makes you think Sox wouldve resigned him after he opted out? They seem smarter than that. Yanks wouldve probably swooped in and offered him the same giant deal we're stuck with anyway.

 

[iSnitch]

Get Arod some HGH.

 

[cobalt_27]

What makes you think Sox wouldve resigned him after he opted out? They seem smarter than that. Yanks wouldve probably swooped in and offered him the same giant deal we're stuck with anyway.

 

[jobarules]

Im still not worried and I realize teams go through these hitting slumps but this team has been tough to watch over the last two weeks. I hope they wake up soon cuz Boston is gonna jump out to a huge lead.

 

[jobarules]

Here's a look at what the Yankees regulars have done in the seven games (2-5) since that win over the Mets. They have averaged just over 2.5 runs a game against the NATIONALS, Marlins and Braves. In other words in the 63 innings since the Yankees put 15 on the board going against the best pitcher in baseball, the Yankees have scored 18 runs. Talk about not saving some for tomorrow, or the day after that, or the day after that, or . . . The good (average, home runs, runs scored, RBIs) Robinson Cano: 10-for-27 (.370, 1 HR, 3 Runs, 3 RBIs) -- The only Yankees hitter to show up in the last week, but he can't do it on his own. And even his stats are padded by a 4-for-4 night in the series opener against the Nationals -- one of the Yankees two wins the past week. Brett Gardner: 4-for-10 (.400, 0, 1, 2) -- Hasn't played often enough in the past week to make a significant impact, but has been solid when he's played. The bad, who look good because everyone else has been worseMark Teixeira: 7-for-26 (.269, 0, 2, 2) -- Has cooled down considerably since a red-hot May. Johnny Damon: 5-for-21 (.238, 1, 3, 2) -- Nothing special, but his .238 has been sorely missed the past two games when he's been out with a calf injury. Jealous of Mario Mendoza Derek Jeter: 4-for-21 (.190, 0, 2, 0) -- Not providing a spark at the top of the lineup and didn't come through in a couple of clutch situations.Jorge Posada: 4-for-18 (.182, 0, 2, 1) -- Sadly all the complaints about Posada have been about his pitch calling, not his hitting.Nick Swisher: 5-for-29 (.172, 0, 1, 1) -- After a hot start this month he's back to the Swisher of May, not the Swisher of April. Hideki Matsui: 2-for-12 (.167, 0, 0, 0) -- Hasn't played much with the Yankees in NL cities.Melky Cabrera: 3-for-19 (.158, 1, 2, 2) -- The Melk Man has not delivered of late.Class of his ownAlex Rodriguez: 1-for-18 (.056, 0, 0, 2) -- A-Rod got the credit when the team surged with his returned and he's gotten the majority of the blame now that they are struggling. As you can see, he isn't alone, but he has been the worst of the bunch.

 

[Reaper]

Im still not worried and I realize teams go through these hitting slumps but this team has been tough to watch over the last two weeks. I hope they wake up soon cuz Boston is gonna jump out to a huge lead.

I don't worry about baseball.... A bad football game or 2 and I'm looking for the nearest bridge.But, when your team has played as poorly as this, is still holding the W/C down and in a playoff series would put up the best starters they have in forever, I don't worry.... They need to be healthy and be playing well in September on....The radio guys are funny.... a few weeks ago Colin Cowherd was screaming how fans are irrational (when they moaned to start the year) and he predicted the Yankees would start off slow and be in 1st place by June 1 or whatever cuz they had older guys that started slow.... He was yelling about how smart he was and how fickle Everyone else was... And now, every day it seems like he talks about how the Yankees have no identity, could never win and are pure garbage..... DUDE, come on now.162 game seasons sure leave a lot of room for the whackos to bounce back and forth....

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I haven't been ignoring this forum, just occupied with the draft thing we're doing. So I haven't been hiding from this stuff either.

This team is really painful to watch right now. I don't how it can be made better with the managerial staff and players there, but something needs to change.

And I would really really really like an explanation for having Joba in the rotation and Hughes in the bullpen when Hughes is pitching just as well as Joba, should be starting, and Joba should be the setup guy so that the bullpen works out. I just don't get it. It makes no sense. At all. None.

Really. None at all. There isn't a single good reason for it. About the only think that makes sense is that the new regime in the front office plus Cashman want to prove that Joba is the starter they envisioned and no one will tell them otherwise, even if they ruin a higher rated prospect and keep the bullpen in shambles. In that case, way to go guys.

Painful. Very little to get excited about.

 

[Michael Brown]

I haven't been ignoring this forum, just occupied with the draft thing we're doing. So I haven't been hiding from this stuff either.This team is really painful to watch right now. I don't how it can be made better with the managerial staff and players there, but something needs to change.And I would really really really like an explanation for having Joba in the rotation and Hughes in the bullpen when Hughes is pitching just as well as Joba, should be starting, and Joba should be the setup guy so that the bullpen works out. I just don't get it. It makes no sense. At all. None.Really. None at all. There isn't a single good reason for it. About the only think that makes sense is that the new regime in the front office plus Cashman want to prove that Joba is the starter they envisioned and no one will tell them otherwise, even if they ruin a higher rated prospect and keep the bullpen in shambles. In that case, way to go guys.Painful. Very little to get excited about.

Wow, you're usually a lot more level-headed than this. One bad week following an awesome run and suddenly the sky is falling?

 

[cobalt_27]

Im still not worried and I realize teams go through these hitting slumps but this team has been tough to watch over the last two weeks. I hope they wake up soon cuz Boston is gonna jump out to a huge lead.

I don't worry about baseball.... A bad football game or 2 and I'm looking for the nearest bridge.But, when your team has played as poorly as this, is still holding the W/C down and in a playoff series would put up the best starters they have in forever, I don't worry.... They need to be healthy and be playing well in September on....The radio guys are funny.... a few weeks ago Colin Cowherd was screaming how fans are irrational (when they moaned to start the year) and he predicted the Yankees would start off slow and be in 1st place by June 1 or whatever cuz they had older guys that started slow.... He was yelling about how smart he was and how fickle Everyone else was... And now, every day it seems like he talks about how the Yankees have no identity, could never win and are pure garbage..... DUDE, come on now.162 game seasons sure leave a lot of room for the whackos to bounce back and forth....

I give a better chance of this team being garbage than I give it being great. The more likely outcome is that they are just above mediocre. Not good enough.Wake me when they prove they can stand up against the Sox. Or the Nats, for that matter.

 

[Finless]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

 

[cobalt_27]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

This has been my point all along. There comes this defensive posturing of, "it's a long season" or "don't judge them in May, wait until September" or "we have a hold of the WC." And, yet, they go up one game on the Sox to lead the Division on June 1, and it's like we just won the World Series.The Yanks had a really nice stretch for a couple of weeks where everything sort of gelled together. But, apart from that, the writing has been on the wall for the other 10+ weeks that this team has barely enough to be competing for the wild card spot. That's not good enough. And, they resort to accusations that you're not a real fan of the team if you don't stand behind them during the tough times. Those of us who are true Yankee fans--probably for a lot longer than the smug they-can-do-no-wrong Yankee fan types--are critical of the team because of just how blatantly they've squandered chance after chance year after year through mismanagement. This year is simply an extension of the same, tired story with this franchise.

I love this team, but it really pisses me off with how it's run.

 

[Michael Brown]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

You picked up smarmy condescension from a two line post? I was just being honest. That was about as extreme a post as Yankee23 has ever posted on here. They went through a rough patch, I don't see it as much more than that. The teams of 96-00 also went through rough patches. The 2000 team lost 15 of 18 to close the season and everyone had them dead and buried in the first round that year, so I just think people tend to overreact to each week on its own.When they passed Boston for first place on June 1st, I didn't act like they had reached the pinnacle of success. It was more a statement of "everyone had them dead and buried in April, yet here they are in first place". It was more to contradict the chicken littles rather than to say LOOK HOW GREAT THEY ARE! Obviously if you are in first place at any point after May, you are at least somewhat competing. And obviously I'm not expecting anyone to remember all of the posts I've made through the years, but if you were to go back and look at past seasons Yankee regular season and playoff threads I've been plenty critical. Of just about everyone. I haven't been critical this season because they've got one of the best records in baseball yet they haven't been operating at full strength for much of the time.I apologize if I ever come across as smug or arrogant or anything else, it's not meant that way. I just tend to post the same way I'd speak, and it probably comes across wrong. Sorry.

 

[Reaper]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

This has been my point all along. There comes this defensive posturing of, "it's a long season" or "don't judge them in May, wait until September" or "we have a hold of the WC." And, yet, they go up one game on the Sox to lead the Division on June 1, and it's like we just won the World Series.

Really???? I'll look back at some posts and see if I get that feeling.Personally I just enjoy the ride. The ups and downs of a rollercoaster season....

Heck, I wasn't feeling like we won a World Series in 1998 until the last out was made. I was one of the very few who never counted it over till it was over in 04'.... Maybe it's all the Jets fan in me - but, I'll never be over confident and start counting wins with any team.

I don't think anyone thought Wang would start off like he did and not even the biggest Yankee hating Sox fan would have guessed Arod's #'s so far, Steroids or not.

Label me what you want, but, The fact is.... It IS a long season. I don't jump off bridges at this point in a season.

But, I do get a kick out of the fans and media that go bonkers over every baseball game as it were a 16 game NFL season.

 

[Reaper]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

This has been my point all along. There comes this defensive posturing of, "it's a long season" or "don't judge them in May, wait until September" or "we have a hold of the WC." And, yet, they go up one game on the Sox to lead the Division on June 1, and it's like we just won the World Series.

Really???? I'll look back at some posts and see if I get that feeling.

Meh... I just don't see it... Maybe you hear fans on the radio or friends of yours get overly excited... I just don't see it from Yankee fans here unless you want to give me some examples of some over the top exhuberance. But, somewhere along the line a Yankee fan is allowed to enoy a win or 2.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Buster Olney devoted a few paragraphs to bullpen use and he mentioned how Torre ran through his relievers.He cited an anonymous player pleading with the GM of another team to trade for him so he could get away from Torres.Any Yankee homers have any idea which player this might have been.

Torre was terrible with the bullpen, there is simply no denying this. Girardi is a genius compared to Torre's bullpen management. You could list 10 relievers who Torre abused.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Decades-long Yankee fan who doesn't have much use for baseball anymore because of steroids...Anyway, caught the last 3 innings last night on MLB Network. Must have been frustrating for Girardi to pull all the right strings in those innings and end up hanging himself. Top of the eighth, he pinch hits Matsui, who singles. Replaces him with Gardner, who steals second. Pinch hits ARod who walks. Runners on first and second, nobody out, down 2-1, Jeter up. Looks good. Jeter bounces into double play. Next guy makes an out.On the pitching side, Girardi replaced an effective Burnett with Coke to play a matchup. Coke gets his guys. Then Hughes throws a lights out ninth.Still lose.Like I said, I don't watch much baseball anymore but after seeing Hughes in the ninth, I think they need to get him in the rotation...

The key move was allowing Jeter to hit into the DP...mistake

 

[Liquid Tension]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

This has been my point all along. There comes this defensive posturing of, "it's a long season" or "don't judge them in May, wait until September" or "we have a hold of the WC." And, yet, they go up one game on the Sox to lead the Division on June 1, and it's like we just won the World Series.The Yanks had a really nice stretch for a couple of weeks where everything sort of gelled together. But, apart from that, the writing has been on the wall for the other 10+ weeks that this team has barely enough to be competing for the wild card spot. That's not good enough. And, they resort to accusations that you're not a real fan of the team if you don't stand behind them during the tough times. Those of us who are true Yankee fans--probably for a lot longer than the smug they-can-do-no-wrong Yankee fan types--are critical of the team because of just how blatantly they've squandered chance after chance year after year through mismanagement. This year is simply an extension of the same, tired story with this franchise.

I love this team, but it really pisses me off with how it's run.

You are so wrong. If the Yankees don't get hit with the injury bug they will absolutely make the playoffs. 90%

 

[Reaper]

Decades-long Yankee fan who doesn't have much use for baseball anymore because of steroids...Anyway, caught the last 3 innings last night on MLB Network. Must have been frustrating for Girardi to pull all the right strings in those innings and end up hanging himself. Top of the eighth, he pinch hits Matsui, who singles. Replaces him with Gardner, who steals second. Pinch hits ARod who walks. Runners on first and second, nobody out, down 2-1, Jeter up. Looks good. Jeter bounces into double play. Next guy makes an out.On the pitching side, Girardi replaced an effective Burnett with Coke to play a matchup. Coke gets his guys. Then Hughes throws a lights out ninth.Still lose.Like I said, I don't watch much baseball anymore but after seeing Hughes in the ninth, I think they need to get him in the rotation...

The key move was allowing Jeter to hit into the DP...mistake

That was a devastingly Dumb move on Girardi's part...BUT.. I wouldn't fire him YET.

 

[Liquid Tension]

This was written before the Wednesday game: I received some passionate responses from people after I took a shot at our savior Jeter. Of course the comparisons to ARod were brought up such as “you know Jeter has been clutch and ARod hasn’t…just look at the rings”

The above quote was paraphrasing and not actual, but I wanted you to get a feel for the responses.

I feel that there is not much to saying someone is clutch and if there is a such thing as clutch ability, it is very small and not nearly the factor people think it is. There are clutch performances as well.

Big picture: Jeter has an OPS of .846 in the postseason with only 49 RBI’s and 85 runs scored in 562 AB’s. ARod has an OPS of .844 with 17 RBI’s and 21 runs in 147 AB’s. If we made it equivalent to Jeter’s 562 AB’s that is 65 RBI’s for ARod with 80 runs scored. They have performed about the same in the postseason. Saying one is clutch and one is unclutch is a little hard to swallow when you look at this. People simply expect more from ARod because he has performed great in the regular season and he is the highest paid player in the majors..

In 2001 when we could have used some help when we lost in 7 games to Arizona in the World Series, Jeter was 4-27 with a horrific .438 OPS. If Jeter would have been more clutch we could have won that series; it was as close as any ever. In the other crushing loss we had, 2004 against Boston, Jeter was 6-30 with one double. Maybe some help from Derek would have won that series for us? Last year, Jeter was 3-17 with no walks or extra base hits in our loss to Cleveland.

FWIW, 2004 seemed to be the year that started giving Boston a leg up and in that year ARod carried the Yankees to a victory over Minnesota with a 1.213 OPS in the series and then in the Boston series in 2004, ARod had an OPS of .895. If Jeter and other players played like ARod the Yanks would have swept Boston. Against Cleveland in 2007 ARod had an OPS of .820 in 15 AB’s, not bad and better than Jeter. Therefore, the entire criticism on ARod gets to the 29 AB’s he had in 2005 and 2006 against LAA and Detroit. In those 29 AB’s (not exactly a large sample), ARod was atrocious. He was 3-29 with no RBI’s and an OPS of about .400. Not exactly a large sample size...

I am trying to make 3 points. 1) I am not trying to criticize Jeter as he has been the classiest guy in sports and to not like Jeter and what he has meant to the Yanks is simply idiotic. Overall Jeter has been a very solid player and has been good in the regular season and the postseason, but people overlook the failures and remember the contributions because they like Jeter. 2) People don’t have perspective on ARod in the postseason. How can ARod have the same numbers as Jeter in the postseason and one guy is clutch and the other is the biggest choker in sports? That just doesn’t add up folks. 3) At the major league level there is very little evidence to support players having the ability to be clutch.

Oh, BTW, Girardi better wake this team up and take control. They are sleep walking. While Wang was throwing 93-95 and had good sink on his ball, he still allowed 3 runs in 5 innings against a weak hitting team. Wang is a good pitcher, but Girardi’s decision to put him into the rotation at the cost of Hughes was simply silly. Add to this the fact that he played ARod in almost 40 straight games after his injury and Girardi has not done a good job. I would NOT fire him now though.

This was written this morning:

Interesting that after a bad call got Gardner picked off at first and Girardi made sure he got booted from the game, the Yankees responded immediately. The unlikely source to get the yanks going was Cervelli, with his first homer of his career. ARod with a huge hit got the Yankees moving in the right direction. He still is swinging mostly arms and is not clearing his hips in his swing.

Joba pitched well; the key was not walking anyone. Bruney didn’t pitch well, but I am not concerned about that. He hadn’t pitched in awhile and it is still in the early part of the year for him. His velocity was good and his slider was decent. I didn’t like (actually I hated) the pitch selection Cervelli called with Bruney. It seemed that 2/3 of his pitches were breaking balls and when you throw 95+, that is not a good idea. Bruney’s control was off, but again Cervelli is trying to throw the 3-2 slider down and in too often. Honestly the Braves did a very poor job of laying off those pitches and a better hitting club would have walked at least 3 more times in the game.

Always great to see the Genius Maker tm pitch well…and he was lights out! Watching him hit was fun too, lining out to CF. The Yankee pitchers swung the bat real well. Joba knocked out there pitcher with a line drive and hit a fairly solid one to 2nd base as well.

 

[Alias]

If I were to define a stat "Clutch", it would not be narrowed to just the postseason.

Fan Graphs actually has a stat called "Clutch", according to their site:

ARod has been the most clutch this season, followed by Damon and then Melky. Conversely Cano and Swisher have been the least clutch.

 

[Michael Brown]

In 2001 when we could have used some help when we lost in 7 games to Arizona in the World Series, Jeter was 4-27 with a horrific .438 OPS. If Jeter would have been more clutch we could have won that series; it was as close as any ever. In the other crushing loss we had, 2004 against Boston, Jeter was 6-30 with one double. Maybe some help from Derek would have won that series for us? Last year, Jeter was 3-17 with no walks or extra base hits in our loss to Cleveland.FWIW, 2004 seemed to be the year that started giving Boston a leg up and in that year ARod carried the Yankees to a victory over Minnesota with a 1.213 OPS in the series and then in the Boston series in 2004, ARod had an OPS of .895. If Jeter and other players played like ARod the Yanks would have swept Boston. Against Cleveland in 2007 ARod had an OPS of .820 in 15 AB’s, not bad and better than Jeter. Therefore, the entire criticism on ARod gets to the 29 AB’s he had in 2005 and 2006 against LAA and Detroit. In those 29 AB’s (not exactly a large sample), ARod was atrocious. He was 3-29 with no RBI’s and an OPS of about .400. Not exactly a large sample size...

I've been through all these debates before, but I just wanted to point out that Jeter hit what would have been the series-winning double against Boston in game 5 in 2004. Were there other instances where he could've come through? Probably. But also recall specifically that A-Rod had a chance to knock in an insurance run in the 8th inning of Game 5 with a runner on third but struck out. Also, A-Rod's .895 OPS against Boston in that series is great but he had 8 total bases in game 3...the game the Yanks won 19-8. Not saying the hits don't count; but it does lend credence to the theory that A-Rod puts up big stats when the outcome of the game isn't hanging in the balance. Did A-Rod's failings cost the team entirely? Certainly not. But when you can recall specific instances, it's better than painting the entire series (or career) with a broad stroke and saying "Look, the numbers are the same".No shtick or anything, but do you have the late/close postseason stats for each player career? That wouldn't necessarily prove or disprove anything, but it would be interesting to see nonetheless. Fair or not, most fans will give a guy the benefit of the doubt for the specific moments he comes up and delivers in. Tino wasn't a primetime player, but fans remember his grannie against Langston and HR off Kim. Luis Sojo is far from a Yankee legend, but his ribbie up the middle in 2000 will ensure that he always receives cheers in the Bronx. A-Rod hasn't had a singular playoff moment where he rises to the occasion and helps the team win a championship, and until he does (fair or not), he'll be judged off the specific failures rather than what the numbers say.

 

[cobalt_27]

Big picture: Jeter has an OPS of .846 in the postseason with only 49 RBI’s and 85 runs scored in 562 AB’s. ARod has an OPS of .844 with 17 RBI’s and 21 runs in 147 AB’s. If we made it equivalent to Jeter’s 562 AB’s that is 65 RBI’s for ARod with 80 runs scored. They have performed about the same in the postseason. Saying one is clutch and one is unclutch is a little hard to swallow when you look at this. People simply expect more from ARod because he has performed great in the regular season and he is the highest paid player in the majors..

This is just a silly analysis if (a) you don't account for their baseline performance (i.e., regular season) or (b) consider what part of the lineup they're in. What's Jeter's regular season OPS, and how does his postseason performance compare? What's ARoids? You're not seriously thinking that someone hitting in the 1 or 2 spot is going to have the same RBI production as the guy in the 3 or 4 hole, are you? Or, did I just miss what point you were making?I'm ok if you want to say Jeter's not clutch. My take is that he performs very similarly in normal, everyday game situations as he does in "clutch" situations on the whole. I don't think the same could be said for ARoids. Of course, who knows what to make of his numbers, since he clearly benefited from peds.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I haven't been ignoring this forum, just occupied with the draft thing we're doing. So I haven't been hiding from this stuff either.This team is really painful to watch right now. I don't how it can be made better with the managerial staff and players there, but something needs to change.And I would really really really like an explanation for having Joba in the rotation and Hughes in the bullpen when Hughes is pitching just as well as Joba, should be starting, and Joba should be the setup guy so that the bullpen works out. I just don't get it. It makes no sense. At all. None.Really. None at all. There isn't a single good reason for it. About the only think that makes sense is that the new regime in the front office plus Cashman want to prove that Joba is the starter they envisioned and no one will tell them otherwise, even if they ruin a higher rated prospect and keep the bullpen in shambles. In that case, way to go guys.Painful. Very little to get excited about.

Wow, you're usually a lot more level-headed than this. One bad week following an awesome run and suddenly the sky is falling?

No sky is falling. They are just painful to watch right now. And the Joba thing is just annoying me every time I see Hughes in the pen. I just can't understand it.

 

[cobalt_27]

I haven't been ignoring this forum, just occupied with the draft thing we're doing. So I haven't been hiding from this stuff either.This team is really painful to watch right now. I don't how it can be made better with the managerial staff and players there, but something needs to change.And I would really really really like an explanation for having Joba in the rotation and Hughes in the bullpen when Hughes is pitching just as well as Joba, should be starting, and Joba should be the setup guy so that the bullpen works out. I just don't get it. It makes no sense. At all. None.Really. None at all. There isn't a single good reason for it. About the only think that makes sense is that the new regime in the front office plus Cashman want to prove that Joba is the starter they envisioned and no one will tell them otherwise, even if they ruin a higher rated prospect and keep the bullpen in shambles. In that case, way to go guys.Painful. Very little to get excited about.

Wow, you're usually a lot more level-headed than this. One bad week following an awesome run and suddenly the sky is falling?

No sky is falling. They are just painful to watch right now. And the Joba thing is just annoying me every time I see Hughes in the pen. I just can't understand it.

You've seen Hughes pitch in innings 1, 2, 3, etc., right? What exactly annoys you about Joba that doesn't annoy you about Hughes?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

You picked up smarmy condescension from a two line post? I was just being honest. That was about as extreme a post as Yankee23 has ever posted on here. They went through a rough patch, I don't see it as much more than that. The teams of 96-00 also went through rough patches. The 2000 team lost 15 of 18 to close the season and everyone had them dead and buried in the first round that year, so I just think people tend to overreact to each week on its own.When they passed Boston for first place on June 1st, I didn't act like they had reached the pinnacle of success. It was more a statement of "everyone had them dead and buried in April, yet here they are in first place". It was more to contradict the chicken littles rather than to say LOOK HOW GREAT THEY ARE! Obviously if you are in first place at any point after May, you are at least somewhat competing. And obviously I'm not expecting anyone to remember all of the posts I've made through the years, but if you were to go back and look at past seasons Yankee regular season and playoff threads I've been plenty critical. Of just about everyone. I haven't been critical this season because they've got one of the best records in baseball yet they haven't been operating at full strength for much of the time.I apologize if I ever come across as smug or arrogant or anything else, it's not meant that way. I just tend to post the same way I'd speak, and it probably comes across wrong. Sorry.

It's the not rough patch that got me to post that - this entire year they've been rough to watch. Yes, the last winning streak was nice but something was missing in that one to me too.When I said I don't know how they fix it, I meant it - because I don't know how to specifically say what is missing. But I know something is. And they have been painful to watch. Maybe it's all the new faces and I'm not connecting with them yet. Maybe it's Girardi who I've really never gotten behind. Maybe it's a combination. I don't know.I'm not pushing any panic buttons and I'm not calling for anyone's head. I just wish there was a Paul O'Neill there to throw a Gatoraide bucket or something to show that there is life on this team.And again, I will not be happy until Joba is in the pen. This is such a glaring problem that it is taking away from the potential of the team. With Joba in the 8th that bullpen is scary good. Without him, they are hoping that someone steps up and does it. Meanwhile no one seems to be reading into what is going on with Mo (he's getting older, hint hint) and seeing that the most important person on this team since 1997 is Rivera, and second place isn't close. They have the potential to make an easy transition to Joba with that job and possibly have yet another anchor back there to build a staff around. But no, instead of doing that they are going headlong into a wall that is going to crush them.They are a better team with Joba in the 8th. Period. You shorten the game to 7 innings which CC, and AJ will hit with no problem. Petitte should as well most of the time, and Hughes may be able to if you just give him the chance. Then you have to figure out Wang who if he gets it together in the second half is 19 game winner. You give that staff 7 innings to work with, then have Joba and Mo looking down on the opposition - game over.But no, we're playing games with Hughes, Joba barely ever gets out of the 4th inning and the pen is a mess when it doesn't have to be. This might be the single most frustrating this I've witnessed as a fan in a long time.

 

[cobalt_27]

Yanks are 4-1 in games Joba's started in June. Pitched 6+ innings in 4 of his 5 starts this month. He's got a season ERA of 3.81.

In 7 starts this year, Hughes has gotten to the 6th inning only twice. Yet, he's held stuff down coming out of the pen remarkably well. He hasn't allowed one earned run at any point when he comes in after the 6th inning.

This is not a problem I'm even remotely concerned about.

 

[Michael Brown]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

You picked up smarmy condescension from a two line post? I was just being honest. That was about as extreme a post as Yankee23 has ever posted on here. They went through a rough patch, I don't see it as much more than that. The teams of 96-00 also went through rough patches. The 2000 team lost 15 of 18 to close the season and everyone had them dead and buried in the first round that year, so I just think people tend to overreact to each week on its own.When they passed Boston for first place on June 1st, I didn't act like they had reached the pinnacle of success. It was more a statement of "everyone had them dead and buried in April, yet here they are in first place". It was more to contradict the chicken littles rather than to say LOOK HOW GREAT THEY ARE! Obviously if you are in first place at any point after May, you are at least somewhat competing. And obviously I'm not expecting anyone to remember all of the posts I've made through the years, but if you were to go back and look at past seasons Yankee regular season and playoff threads I've been plenty critical. Of just about everyone. I haven't been critical this season because they've got one of the best records in baseball yet they haven't been operating at full strength for much of the time.I apologize if I ever come across as smug or arrogant or anything else, it's not meant that way. I just tend to post the same way I'd speak, and it probably comes across wrong. Sorry.

It's the not rough patch that got me to post that - this entire year they've been rough to watch. Yes, the last winning streak was nice but something was missing in that one to me too.When I said I don't know how they fix it, I meant it - because I don't know how to specifically say what is missing. But I know something is. And they have been painful to watch. Maybe it's all the new faces and I'm not connecting with them yet. Maybe it's Girardi who I've really never gotten behind. Maybe it's a combination. I don't know.I'm not pushing any panic buttons and I'm not calling for anyone's head. I just wish there was a Paul O'Neill there to throw a Gatoraide bucket or something to show that there is life on this team.And again, I will not be happy until Joba is in the pen. This is such a glaring problem that it is taking away from the potential of the team. With Joba in the 8th that bullpen is scary good. Without him, they are hoping that someone steps up and does it. Meanwhile no one seems to be reading into what is going on with Mo (he's getting older, hint hint) and seeing that the most important person on this team since 1997 is Rivera, and second place isn't close. They have the potential to make an easy transition to Joba with that job and possibly have yet another anchor back there to build a staff around. But no, instead of doing that they are going headlong into a wall that is going to crush them.They are a better team with Joba in the 8th. Period. You shorten the game to 7 innings which CC, and AJ will hit with no problem. Petitte should as well most of the time, and Hughes may be able to if you just give him the chance. Then you have to figure out Wang who if he gets it together in the second half is 19 game winner. You give that staff 7 innings to work with, then have Joba and Mo looking down on the opposition - game over.But no, we're playing games with Hughes, Joba barely ever gets out of the 4th inning and the pen is a mess when it doesn't have to be. This might be the single most frustrating this I've witnessed as a fan in a long time.

Yeah, I'm very much on the other side of this debate. I can't possibly justify making Joba a middle reliever/future closer when the potential is there for him to be an ace starter. You just can't do that.What's the average shelf life for most closers, 5 years tops? The constant workload and high stress, max effort pitches tend to shorten careers even with the lowered overall workload. I'd much rather we try and develop the next Josh Beckett than the next Rob Dibble.I do agree with you that they are a better team right now with Joba in the pen. But I'm looking more down the road, and I'm willing to give it some time to develop. Better to not win this year and have Joba as an ace for the next 5-7 years rather than win now and have to go out and find starters as Pettitte, CC, Burnett, Wang enter their 30's.

 

[jobarules]

I like this thread. Level headed Yankees fans. Go figure.

well don't forget now. Any Yankee fans who question the coaching or management actually aren't being level headed. holy crap Brown. You really are a tad nuts? Any time a Yankee fan has questioned something the team is done you have to hit them with that smarmy condescencion of yours. Is there anyone who has posted in this thread who hasn't been on the receiving end of one of your smug "never question the Yankees" posts?

You picked up smarmy condescension from a two line post? I was just being honest. That was about as extreme a post as Yankee23 has ever posted on here. They went through a rough patch, I don't see it as much more than that. The teams of 96-00 also went through rough patches. The 2000 team lost 15 of 18 to close the season and everyone had them dead and buried in the first round that year, so I just think people tend to overreact to each week on its own.When they passed Boston for first place on June 1st, I didn't act like they had reached the pinnacle of success. It was more a statement of "everyone had them dead and buried in April, yet here they are in first place". It was more to contradict the chicken littles rather than to say LOOK HOW GREAT THEY ARE! Obviously if you are in first place at any point after May, you are at least somewhat competing. And obviously I'm not expecting anyone to remember all of the posts I've made through the years, but if you were to go back and look at past seasons Yankee regular season and playoff threads I've been plenty critical. Of just about everyone. I haven't been critical this season because they've got one of the best records in baseball yet they haven't been operating at full strength for much of the time.I apologize if I ever come across as smug or arrogant or anything else, it's not meant that way. I just tend to post the same way I'd speak, and it probably comes across wrong. Sorry.

It's the not rough patch that got me to post that - this entire year they've been rough to watch. Yes, the last winning streak was nice but something was missing in that one to me too.When I said I don't know how they fix it, I meant it - because I don't know how to specifically say what is missing. But I know something is. And they have been painful to watch. Maybe it's all the new faces and I'm not connecting with them yet. Maybe it's Girardi who I've really never gotten behind. Maybe it's a combination. I don't know.I'm not pushing any panic buttons and I'm not calling for anyone's head. I just wish there was a Paul O'Neill there to throw a Gatoraide bucket or something to show that there is life on this team.And again, I will not be happy until Joba is in the pen. This is such a glaring problem that it is taking away from the potential of the team. With Joba in the 8th that bullpen is scary good. Without him, they are hoping that someone steps up and does it. Meanwhile no one seems to be reading into what is going on with Mo (he's getting older, hint hint) and seeing that the most important person on this team since 1997 is Rivera, and second place isn't close. They have the potential to make an easy transition to Joba with that job and possibly have yet another anchor back there to build a staff around. But no, instead of doing that they are going headlong into a wall that is going to crush them.They are a better team with Joba in the 8th. Period. You shorten the game to 7 innings which CC, and AJ will hit with no problem. Petitte should as well most of the time, and Hughes may be able to if you just give him the chance. Then you have to figure out Wang who if he gets it together in the second half is 19 game winner. You give that staff 7 innings to work with, then have Joba and Mo looking down on the opposition - game over.But no, we're playing games with Hughes, Joba barely ever gets out of the 4th inning and the pen is a mess when it doesn't have to be. This might be the single most frustrating this I've witnessed as a fan in a long time.

This whole post is just pure stupidity

 

[jobarules]

Newsflash to Yank23fan. The pen has actually been pretty damn good in recent weeks. Coke & Aceves have been dominant. Mariano only stinks in tie games for some reason. And Bruney is healthy again. WTF more do you want out of a bullpen? And I have been the biggest complainer about the pen but its hard to complain how they are pitching now. They havent been losing games because of their pen. It was their offense doing them in.

 

[cobalt_27]

This whole post is just pure stupidity

Nice, classy post.

 

[jobarules]

This whole post is just pure stupidity

Nice, classy post.

says mr class himselfand i apologize for not being classy but nothing pisses me off more than joba to the pen nonsense or booing arod

 

[Capella]

I'll say it again, but the only people who should want Joba in the pen are Red Sox or Rays fans.

Taking your 2nd-3rd best pitcher from 160+ innings to 65 innings is complete stupidity.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This whole post is just pure stupidity

Nice, classy post.

says mr class himselfand i apologize for not being classy but nothing pisses me off more than joba to the pen nonsense or booing arod

I can't remember ever booing anyone on the Yankees, let alone the best player in baseball. And I remember the Mel Hall years.