What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

One mistake I will NOT make again next year... (1 Viewer)

Judge Smails

Footballguy
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..

 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
I would wager Colston wasn't drafted by any FF team....sans a very deep dynasty.
 
And last year ignoring veteran WRs for up and coming young WRs was a mistake. Galloway and Glenn did better than Clayton, Burleson, and Andre Johnson. In other words you never know.

 
Slight hijack, but what kind of value does Colston really hold right now? How would you rank him now, and forward?

 
It's a mixed bag. For every Berrian or Cotchery, there's a Corey Bradford or a Cedrick Wilson.

I think the key factor is not whether the player has the opportunity, but rather whether he has talent + the opportunity. Take a closer look at these guys:

Berrian - Stud early in his college career. Considered a top 10-20 prospect. Career slowed by injuries. Still managed to be a 3rd round pick.

Jennings - 2nd round pick. 'Nuff said.

Cotchery - Low draft pick, but a huge producer in college.

Colston - This one is probably the most surprising, but small school players do tend to fly under the radar.

Of these four guys, I'd say only Colston was completely unpredictable. Berrian and Jennings were early draft picks. Cotchery was a monster in college and had garnered plenty of hype around here in the past.

 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
I would wager Colston wasn't drafted by any FF team....sans a very deep dynasty.
Im in a 14 team redraft, 20 rounds. A guy drafted him in the 19th. I am a big proponent of deep leagues for this reason - anyone can pick up a guy on the waiver wire, but let's see who can really draft.
 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
I would wager Colston wasn't drafted by any FF team....sans a very deep dynasty.
He was drafted by a team in my WCOFF league. The guy said he had a friend in the Saints' organization who thought he was going to be huge. I didn't remember who he was talking about until after the guy blew up, and by then it was too late to get him in any other league. Ouch.
 
A little story:

One of my leagues splits its rookie/free agent draft into two parts. The first three rounds take place the weekend after the NFL draft. Then we lock the rosters for a few months and do another three rounds just prior to the season. This year I was sitting on the clock at 5.04 with an ever-dwindling amount of options available on the board. The Saints had just been on Monday Night Football in the preseason and I noticed that Marques Colston not only got work with the first team, but also got a look in the red zone. I considered taking him with my pick, so I went back and did some research on him. After looking at some scouting reports and his combine numbers, I decided that he wasn't worth the trouble. Who did I select instead? Bernard Berrian.

The lesson? Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Actually, the most important lesson is that you need to keep your eyes open. I never would've even considered Colston if I hadn't noticed that he was working with the first team in the preaseason. Little things like that are important.

 
Aren't many of these guys rookies? Berrian, Colston, Jennings I think are, I'm too lazy to check. Cotchery is a 3rd year. Furrey...well that guys like a CFL/Arena/XFL dude, if I'm not mistaken.

If you look at past history...isn't this type of thing more of an aberration than a trend? I mean, usually...young WR's don't do well. Sure, you'll have your Randy Moss, your Michael Clayton, your Anquan Boldin...but more often than not, these guys tend to be very inconsistent over 16 games.

I'd still stick with the solid vets. You just have to put in the due diligence and figure out which ones will do well. You know, Muhsin Muhammed, LColes, Keyshawn, Toomer, Glenn, Bruce...

There's quite a few older vets that dropped pretty far that are doing well. I personally drafted Muhsin, because nobody could suck as bad as Orton did last year (in terms of killing WR productivity). And I drafted Galloway last year. And I made a point to ignore the young WR's...which means I didn't pick up any of those young guys this year...but we're only 4 games in. There's no guarantee that all of them keep it up.

 
go RB/RB....thank you very much...chad johnson......for this reminder. :banned:
The only way RB/RB is a good option is if you pick the right ones. It's no guarantee.CJ will be fine anyway. Unless you think he's only going to catch 4TD's this year (what he's on pace for).
 
This once again proves that it's easier to find WR value late than RB value. Whether it be young or old surprise producers, you can afford to wait on WRs compared to RBs.

 
You cant really stick with one strategy and hindsight is always 20/20.

Seriously, look at those guys.

Jennings had a good shot. Gunslinger, might be down a lot, tons of yards and catches to go around.

Cotchery? You kidding me? Entrenched #1, lousy team, a QB that we have debated even BELONGS in the NFL, as great a chance to see 180 yards passing a game as anything.

Berrian would STILL look no better than anyone else if we looked at it. Strong defense, close games, strong running attack, QB coming off injury that we werent sure what kind of player he'd develop into on a team that plays in lousy weather and hasnt thrown TD passes since.......well hell, they've never thrown TD passes. Its like tradition or something.

Colston. Colston. Its the Saints. New QB, new coaching staff, problems all over the organization and city, and oh yeah, they are the Saints. Just as likely to have 30 catches for 240 this season.

Furrey..........defensive back. Cmon.

I think you take a flyer on a guy once, maybe twice with big rosters. Other than that all you can do is pay attention and jump when they break or better yet LOOK like they might. Do that with the understanding that they may have one good week and disappear. Happens every year. Little skill and a lot of luck with these guys.

 
A little story:

One of my leagues splits its rookie/free agent draft into two parts. The first three rounds take place the weekend after the NFL draft. Then we lock the rosters for a few months and do another three rounds just prior to the season. This year I was sitting on the clock at 5.04 with an ever-dwindling amount of options available on the board. The Saints had just been on Monday Night Football in the preseason and I noticed that Marques Colston not only got work with the first team, but also got a look in the red zone. I considered taking him with my pick, so I went back and did some research on him. After looking at some scouting reports and his combine numbers, I decided that he wasn't worth the trouble. Who did I select instead? Bernard Berrian.



The lesson? Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Actually, the most important lesson is that you need to keep your eyes open. I never would've even considered Colston if I hadn't noticed that he was working with the first team in the preaseason. Little things like that are important.
Why was it good to be wrong?? What are you talking about...Colston. 20-336-3

Berrian. 15-316-3

Wouldn't you want Colston??

 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
I would wager Colston wasn't drafted by any FF team....sans a very deep dynasty.
I took Colston in the 15th rd of a 14 team redraft league. That day of our draft I saw Dree Brees on the NFL Network saying he loved his size in the red zone. It was my last pick so WTF??
 
A little story:

One of my leagues splits its rookie/free agent draft into two parts. The first three rounds take place the weekend after the NFL draft. Then we lock the rosters for a few months and do another three rounds just prior to the season. This year I was sitting on the clock at 5.04 with an ever-dwindling amount of options available on the board. The Saints had just been on Monday Night Football in the preseason and I noticed that Marques Colston not only got work with the first team, but also got a look in the red zone. I considered taking him with my pick, so I went back and did some research on him. After looking at some scouting reports and his combine numbers, I decided that he wasn't worth the trouble. Who did I select instead? Bernard Berrian.



The lesson? Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Actually, the most important lesson is that you need to keep your eyes open. I never would've even considered Colston if I hadn't noticed that he was working with the first team in the preaseason. Little things like that are important.
Why was it good to be wrong?? What are you talking about...Colston. 20-336-3

Berrian. 15-316-3

Wouldn't you want Colston??
It's good to be wrong because although I may have made a mistake by passing on Colston, I still ended up getting a huge steal at 5.04.
 
A little story:

One of my leagues splits its rookie/free agent draft into two parts. The first three rounds take place the weekend after the NFL draft. Then we lock the rosters for a few months and do another three rounds just prior to the season. This year I was sitting on the clock at 5.04 with an ever-dwindling amount of options available on the board. The Saints had just been on Monday Night Football in the preseason and I noticed that Marques Colston not only got work with the first team, but also got a look in the red zone. I considered taking him with my pick, so I went back and did some research on him. After looking at some scouting reports and his combine numbers, I decided that he wasn't worth the trouble. Who did I select instead? Bernard Berrian.



The lesson? Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Actually, the most important lesson is that you need to keep your eyes open. I never would've even considered Colston if I hadn't noticed that he was working with the first team in the preaseason. Little things like that are important.
Why was it good to be wrong?? What are you talking about...Colston. 20-336-3

Berrian. 15-316-3

Wouldn't you want Colston??
It's good to be wrong because although I may have made a mistake by passing on Colston, I still ended up getting a huge steal at 5.04.
Gotcha.BUt you still would have been better off being right!

:D

 
A little story:

One of my leagues splits its rookie/free agent draft into two parts. The first three rounds take place the weekend after the NFL draft. Then we lock the rosters for a few months and do another three rounds just prior to the season. This year I was sitting on the clock at 5.04 with an ever-dwindling amount of options available on the board. The Saints had just been on Monday Night Football in the preseason and I noticed that Marques Colston not only got work with the first team, but also got a look in the red zone. I considered taking him with my pick, so I went back and did some research on him. After looking at some scouting reports and his combine numbers, I decided that he wasn't worth the trouble. Who did I select instead? Bernard Berrian.



The lesson? Sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Actually, the most important lesson is that you need to keep your eyes open. I never would've even considered Colston if I hadn't noticed that he was working with the first team in the preaseason. Little things like that are important.
Why was it good to be wrong?? What are you talking about...Colston. 20-336-3

Berrian. 15-316-3

Wouldn't you want Colston??
It's good to be wrong because although I may have made a mistake by passing on Colston, I still ended up getting a huge steal at 5.04.
Gotcha.BUt you still would have been better off being right!

:D
We'll see. :banned:
 
There's is no bigger supporter of Rudi than I. I snatch him in my Dynasty league when he was backing up CD and when others were saying he was 2nd rounder I was saying he was saying he was 1st rounder and deserved more respect.

But what did I do in a BIG money redraft league (after reading how he had one of the toughest run D schedules)?

I passed on him.........at the 1.10 spot..............and the 2.1. Knowing that drafting is ALL about value, Rudi is/was at Supreme Value at this spot. :loco: :loco: :doh: :ptts:

What does this mean, draft to <(***YOUR***)> board.

 
I made a mistake last year that I decided to learn from this year and so far so good...

Don't draft 2nd year RBs after breakout rookie years. Last year I was the one taking Kevin Jones, Julius Jones, and Stephen Jackson expecting big things and it never happened. This year I passed on Caddy and Ronnie Brown in favor of the safer picks like Rudi Johnson and Brian Westbrook.

So far, so good.

 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
I don't think Furrey had the job locked up at the season's start, all the rave was about Bradford as the #2 at the time.Also the problem with this is you're going to get caught chasing trends. Last year the opposite was true. The random #2's didn't really show up and the aging vets (guys like Jimmy Smith, Rod Smith, Eddie Kennison) all outplayed their draft spots by quite a bit. Next year who knows which way it's going to go, or maybe it will be a mix. Don't get caught always basing it on just the one prior year.
 
go RB/RB....thank you very much...chad johnson......for this reminder. :banned:
The only way RB/RB is a good option is if you pick the right ones. It's no guarantee.CJ will be fine anyway. Unless you think he's only going to catch 4TD's this year (what he's on pace for).
Then again, my Steve Smith + Torry Holt in the 2nd and 3rd is looking good based on who was left of the RBs. So I don't know if a lesson was learned, per se. ;)
 
Draft any player off a team coached by Art Shell.
Hey now...L.Jordan did well this week. They played two of the top defenses in their first two games. I think the biggest lesson anyone could learn EVERY year...don't overreact. Players can't be expected to score 20pts every week. You have to be patient. Well, unless you're 0-4 after this week, then you should blow up your team and never play again.
 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
This is an unusual year for this. Last year I snagged Samie Parker and thought I was golden with the WR2 in the KC offense. :yucky:
 
And last year ignoring veteran WRs for up and coming young WRs was a mistake. Galloway and Glenn did better than Clayton, Burleson, and Andre Johnson. In other words you never know.
Actually, funny story. I have a buddy who I draft with in a couple of leagues. One of these leagues is a keeper league where you keep 3 players, and they cost a pick equal to the round you drafted them in +2 (so a 10th round pick costs an 8th rounder to keep). Free agents essentially keep for free (the last pick you have in the draft). Anyway, because of the keeper rules, the league tends to get pretty crazy at the end of the draft and load up on very young "upside" type guys in the hopes of getting the next stud keeper, like Antonio Gates (who keeps for a 15th at the moment), or Larry Johnson (who keeps for a 20th), or Reggie Wayne (16th).Anyway, last year we're talking as the draft progresses, and every round starting at about the 12th we say "Wow, I can't believe Galloway is still available... but I just can't bring myself to draft him over (insert young guy with upside)" and grab someone else. Galloway winds up falling through the entire draft, and then has a HUGE season. This year, around the 12th round, we start saying "Wow, I can't believe Terry Glenn is still available... but I just can't bring myself to draft him over (insert young guy with upside)". Terry Glenn winds up falling through the entire draft, and is now looking like he's going to have a HUGE season.The moral? Next year, when I say "Wow, I can't believe ____________ is still available...", there are going to be no buts about it, I'm drafting him! No more shall I be blinded by young WRs with fast 40 times and high "upsides"!
This once again proves that it's easier to find WR value late than RB value. Whether it be young or old surprise producers, you can afford to wait on WRs compared to RBs.
I disagree. You can wait on RB just like you can wait on WR, you just can't wait as long. There are tons of value contributers in rounds 4-10 at RB. Jamal Lewis, Corey Dillon, Frank Gore, Thomas Jones, Deuce McAllister, Ahman Green, and Laurence Maroney were all taken in the 4th round or later.Edit: 33% of last year's top-12 RBs came from the 4th round or later. You had Warrick Dunn (4th), Larry Johnson (5th), Thomas Jones (6th), and Mike Anderson (7th). Not too shabby when you consider that 18 of the first 24 picks were RBs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
tipsy mcstagger said:
Judge Smails said:
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
I would wager Colston wasn't drafted by any FF team....sans a very deep dynasty.
Guy in my WCOFF league had a friend who was in the media in NO and he grabbed Colston with his last pick.MANY rounds after we grabbed Horn :bag:Edit to add.........DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Bostonfred stealing my info? Nice Horn pick FRED.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
It's always useful to backtest hypotheses such as this.For example take a look at the top WR's after week 1 of last year in a PPR league:
Code:
1	Fitzgerald, Larry ARI WR	34.52	McCardell, Keenan SDC WR	33.33	Smith, Jimmy JAC WR	324	Smith, Steve CAR WR	27.85	Jackson, Frisman CLE WR	26.86	Moss, Randy OAK WR	247	Johnson, Keyshawn CAR WR	23.58	Branch, Deion NEP WR	22.99	Holt, Torry STL WR	22.510	Booker, Marty MIA WR	21.411	Crayton, Patrick DAL WR	20.912	Johnson, Chad CIN WR	19.213	Harrison, Marvin IND WR	18.914	Burress, Plaxico NYG WR	18.615	Jackson, Darrell SEA WR	18.516	Owens, Terrell DAL WR	18.217	Battle, Arnaz SFO WR	17.918	Mason, Derrick BAL WR	17.919	Randle El, Antwaan WAS WR	17.520	Smith, Rod DEN WR	1621	Engram, Bobby SEA WR	15.922	Lloyd, Brandon WAS WR	15.523	Jurevicius, Joe CLE WR	15.424	Stokley, Brandon IND WR	15.325	Bruce, Isaac STL WR	15.126	Chambers, Chris MIA WR	15.127	McDonald, Shaun STL WR	1528	Galloway, Joey TBB WR	14.729	Walter, Kevin HOU WR	14.730	Moss, Santana WAS WR	13.6
The unheralded WR's who jumped out at me were:Frisman JacksonPatrick CraytonArnaz BattleJoe JureviciusShaun McDonaldKevin WalterOf those, only Jurevicius had a particularly good year.The previous year, the key ones after week 1 were:Cedric WilsonAntonio BryantDavid PattenDoug GabrielReche CaldwellAlvis WhittedAgain, only one of them (Bryant) finished particularly strong.Go back one year further and you'll get Anquan Boldin, Charles Rogers amongst others.The point is, this is far from a fool-proof scheme, and it may be too early to anoint Cotchery, Berrian and Colston this year too.
 
The truth is that no trend or even history lesson can predict production, injury and team performance. Miami looked like a fantasy goldmine before the season with Brown, Culpepper and Chambers. Now they look like a wasteland. The same is true of Oakland. Who knew. I believe that luck has more to do in this crazy game than we want to admit.

 
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith said:
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
It's always useful to backtest hypotheses such as this.For example take a look at the top WR's after week 1 of last year in a PPR league:
Code:
1	Fitzgerald, Larry ARI WR	34.52	McCardell, Keenan SDC WR	33.33	Smith, Jimmy JAC WR	324	Smith, Steve CAR WR	27.85	Jackson, Frisman CLE WR	26.86	Moss, Randy OAK WR	247	Johnson, Keyshawn CAR WR	23.58	Branch, Deion NEP WR	22.99	Holt, Torry STL WR	22.510	Booker, Marty MIA WR	21.411	Crayton, Patrick DAL WR	20.912	Johnson, Chad CIN WR	19.213	Harrison, Marvin IND WR	18.914	Burress, Plaxico NYG WR	18.615	Jackson, Darrell SEA WR	18.516	Owens, Terrell DAL WR	18.217	Battle, Arnaz SFO WR	17.918	Mason, Derrick BAL WR	17.919	Randle El, Antwaan WAS WR	17.520	Smith, Rod DEN WR	1621	Engram, Bobby SEA WR	15.922	Lloyd, Brandon WAS WR	15.523	Jurevicius, Joe CLE WR	15.424	Stokley, Brandon IND WR	15.325	Bruce, Isaac STL WR	15.126	Chambers, Chris MIA WR	15.127	McDonald, Shaun STL WR	1528	Galloway, Joey TBB WR	14.729	Walter, Kevin HOU WR	14.730	Moss, Santana WAS WR	13.6
The unheralded WR's who jumped out at me were:Frisman JacksonPatrick CraytonArnaz BattleJoe JureviciusShaun McDonaldKevin WalterOf those, only Jurevicius had a particularly good year.The previous year, the key ones after week 1 were:Cedric WilsonAntonio BryantDavid PattenDoug GabrielReche CaldwellAlvis WhittedAgain, only one of them (Bryant) finished particularly strong.Go back one year further and you'll get Anquan Boldin, Charles Rogers amongst others.The point is, this is far from a fool-proof scheme, and it may be too early to anoint Cotchery, Berrian and Colston this year too.
The difference here is that Jennings, Colston, etc. are sitting high after 4 weeks. The stats you provide are for just 1 week. Huge difference as we are talking about 25% of the season.
 
I won't take any highly regarded RB's that play on teams with crappy OL's. Guys like Caddy, Ronnie Brown and Jordan were all ranked in the top 10 or so RB's. I got Jordan and Caddy at 10 & 11 and so far my season has been a nightmare.

Looking back I shoulda went with a top WR instead of 2 RB's in that spot.

Just my opinion :shock:

Willie

 
Unheralded WR's who win WR2 jobs coming out of camp have proven golden. I was as guilty as others by going after more aging "names" in the later rounds, instead of recognizing that guys leaping over established veterans in the depth charts must have something. Colsten, Jennings, Furrey, etc. all had the jobs locked up, and many owners like me didn't take advantage of it. Thankfully grabbed Jennings cheap in a trade, but next year I will work this angle hard..
It's been 4 weeks, I bet Colston and Furrey will be afterthoughts by week 16. Jennings has staying power thought. I wouldn't come to any conclusions on young WRs after 4 weeks.
 
It's been 4 weeks, I bet Colston and Furrey will be afterthoughts by week 16. Jennings has staying power thought. I wouldn't come to any conclusions on young WRs after 4 weeks.
Furrey maybe, but I'll take that bet that Colston will be an afterthought. The guy's very impressive, rookie or not.
 
I won't take any highly regarded RB's that play on teams with crappy OL's. Guys like Caddy, Ronnie Brown and Jordan were all ranked in the top 10 or so RB's. I got Jordan and Caddy at 10 & 11 and so far my season has been a nightmare. Looking back I shoulda went with a top WR instead of 2 RB's in that spot.Just my opinion :shock: Willie
Don't forget Edgerrin James.
 
The difference here is that Jennings, Colston, etc. are sitting high after 4 weeks. The stats you provide are for just 1 week. Huge difference as we are talking about 25% of the season.
The point of the thread was how to identify people at the beginning of the season (pre-season or week 1), not how to identify people at week 4. By week 4, it's too late to trade for these types at bargain basement prices.
 
i am going to try drafting RBs & WRs for the first 9 or so rounds next year ... i have always had great luck with TEBC, QBBC, DEFBC, KBC yet I always seem to waste at least a couple high/medium picks on these positions

its nice to stack up a lot of depth in the RB/WR positions and people will always trade if you made good picks ...

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top