P. Manning or T. Brady (1 Viewer)

[Truman]

- No one really thinks Randy Moss at his peak is equivalent to Marvin Harrison.

- Same goes for the Pats line v the Colts line.

- If you run up the score, don't expect people to consider your teams stats in the same light as players who set records while sitting in the 4th quarter of blowouts.

- Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.

- Just because Indy's defense performed for one postseason in 7 years doesn't mean they weren't absent for the previous 6 postseasons.

- Last year's Indy D was the worst regular season D statistically to win the superbowl ever, and one of only a handful to rank outside the top 10.

- Brady fumbled.

- Adam Vinatieri is a beast.

- Tom Brady has obviously been the most important Pats player for a long time, but its just as clear to non-homers that he's also had the best supporting cast of any QB.

 

[twitch]

- No one really thinks Randy Moss at his peak is equivalent to Marvin Harrison.- Same goes for the Pats line v the Colts line.- If you run up the score, don't expect people to consider your teams stats in the same light as players who set records while sitting in the 4th quarter of blowouts.- Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.- Just because Indy's defense performed for one postseason in 7 years doesn't mean they weren't absent for the previous 6 postseasons.- Last year's Indy D was the worst regular season D statistically to win the superbowl ever, and one of only a handful to rank outside the top 10.- Brady fumbled.- Adam Vinatieri is a beast.- Tom Brady has obviously been the most important Pats player for a long time, but its just as clear to non-homers that he's also had the best supporting cast of any QB.

Will you guys give this crap up already?? enough of the bogus, completely unnessecary opinions on who's Olines are better or who's#s will mean something or not. Honestly. Its pointless. LET IT GO. Please, for God's sake. Im begging you. Its painful.

 

[Liquid Tension]

My whole beef with the Manning/Brady argument this entire time is the "clutch" factor. I don't believe in clutch, and at least in baseball there is a lot of evidence suggesting that a players' production ultimately regresses to their regular-season average given enough time in the play-offs. I think the same is true for football. I mean really, did anyone still believe in this "clutch" bull #### as Manning led his team to an 18-point comeback victory and Brady threw the game-ending interception on the final drive? If somehow their roles had been reversed and Manning was the one throwing the INT with the game on the line in the final minute, everyone would most certainly be calling him "choke artist" and so forth, but because it was Brady he gets a free pass. What BS. It was the people foolish enough to let 3 or 4 play-off games define a career of 160+ games that created this argument. And in the past two postseasons it's become clear that quarterbacks should be evaluated in their own right, championships credited to the teams that won them rather than the quarterback who played on them.

This is the part where most people just can't separate their own beliefs from reality. "So and so won 3 SB's so he is better than Marino"...Folks, football is a TEAM game. Elway never won a SB until he had the best running back (attack) in football. The QB is the most important single player on the team, but the overall % to wards victory is not nearly as important as people think.Read my sig about QB's being overrated on good teams. As for clutch factor, Dantheman is correct about baseball that there does not appear to be nearly as much as people think to clutch factor (if even at all). In football because there is a little more reaction to items that are out of your control (and unexpected) there may be a little more to it, but it is still not nearly at the level most people think it is.So why was Manning a choker and now he is not? Nothing really has changed except he got himself a defense and it is A LOT easier to play the game when you know your defense can get the ball back for you compared to having to score on every play.I fine it funny that the same people who criticize Marino for not winning a title then say "I would have a much better time believing Manning didn't choke if he lost in a shoot out 35-31." That is MarinoBottom line to me is what my sig says and choosing titles to rank players is VERY short sighted in my eyes. An entire separate discussion could be had regarding why this does not happen as often in baseball in people's minds.

 

[Jayrod]

- No one really thinks Randy Moss at his peak is equivalent to Marvin Harrison.

- Same goes for the Pats line v the Colts line.

- If you run up the score, don't expect people to consider your teams stats in the same light as players who set records while sitting in the 4th quarter of blowouts.

- Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.

- Just because Indy's defense performed for one postseason in 7 years doesn't mean they weren't absent for the previous 6 postseasons.

- Last year's Indy D was the worst regular season D statistically to win the superbowl ever, and one of only a handful to rank outside the top 10.

- Brady fumbled.

- Adam Vinatieri is a beast.

- Tom Brady has obviously been the most important Pats player for a long time, but its just as clear to non-homers that he's also had the best supporting cast of any QB.

Will you guys give this crap up already?? enough of the bogus, completely unnessecary opinions on who's Olines are better or who's#s will mean something or not. Honestly. Its pointless. LET IT GO. Please, for God's sake. Im begging you. Its painful.

I've never felt the need to use this smiley more than now.

Your takes are so biased, and borderline worthless its not even funny. New England had the 24th ranked defense in 2001 when Brady led them to their first title. Again, the 24th ranked defense. I dont mind you hating the guy, but atleast use some level of objectivity. Otherwise, just dont comment.

that's selective grading man, and you know it. go to NFL.com and look up standard ranking NFL defenses, and theyre sorted by yardage first and foremost. Grab a USAToday. or your local sports paper. Dont bushleague me, now. I knew what their scoring rank was. Like I said before, hideous bias.

And by the way, by those scoring standards youve cited, New England's scoring offense improved from 22nd in '00 to 6th in '01. Works both ways.

As do those 7 INTs and 3 TDs that he was 'running' that offense to last year in the playoffs. If thats what running an offense produces, then give me a hand puppet with 30TDs and 2 picks all day every day.

I've learned one thing in this thread and one thing only. That twitch is a blind homer and his opinion on anything related to the Pats is worthless.

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: twitch. · View this post · Un-ignore twitch

 

[Keith Lewis]

- No one really thinks Randy Moss at his peak is equivalent to Marvin Harrison.

- Same goes for the Pats line v the Colts line.

- If you run up the score, don't expect people to consider your teams stats in the same light as players who set records while sitting in the 4th quarter of blowouts.

- Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.

- Just because Indy's defense performed for one postseason in 7 years doesn't mean they weren't absent for the previous 6 postseasons.

- Last year's Indy D was the worst regular season D statistically to win the superbowl ever, and one of only a handful to rank outside the top 10.

- Brady fumbled.

- Adam Vinatieri is a beast.

- Tom Brady has obviously been the most important Pats player for a long time, but its just as clear to non-homers that he's also had the best supporting cast of any QB.

Will you guys give this crap up already?? enough of the bogus, completely unnessecary opinions on who's Olines are better or who's#s will mean something or not. Honestly. Its pointless. LET IT GO. Please, for God's sake. Im begging you. Its painful.

I've never felt the need to use this smiley more than now.

Your takes are so biased, and borderline worthless its not even funny. New England had the 24th ranked defense in 2001 when Brady led them to their first title. Again, the 24th ranked defense. I dont mind you hating the guy, but atleast use some level of objectivity. Otherwise, just dont comment.

that's selective grading man, and you know it. go to NFL.com and look up standard ranking NFL defenses, and theyre sorted by yardage first and foremost. Grab a USAToday. or your local sports paper. Dont bushleague me, now. I knew what their scoring rank was. Like I said before, hideous bias.

And by the way, by those scoring standards youve cited, New England's scoring offense improved from 22nd in '00 to 6th in '01. Works both ways.

As do those 7 INTs and 3 TDs that he was 'running' that offense to last year in the playoffs. If thats what running an offense produces, then give me a hand puppet with 30TDs and 2 picks all day every day.

I've learned one thing in this thread and one thing only. That twitch is a blind homer and his opinion on anything related to the Pats is worthless.

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: twitch.   · View this post  · Un-ignore twitch

@ the "code" at the bottom.

 

[twitch]

- No one really thinks Randy Moss at his peak is equivalent to Marvin Harrison.

- Same goes for the Pats line v the Colts line.

- If you run up the score, don't expect people to consider your teams stats in the same light as players who set records while sitting in the 4th quarter of blowouts.

- Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.

- Just because Indy's defense performed for one postseason in 7 years doesn't mean they weren't absent for the previous 6 postseasons.

- Last year's Indy D was the worst regular season D statistically to win the superbowl ever, and one of only a handful to rank outside the top 10.

- Brady fumbled.

- Adam Vinatieri is a beast.

- Tom Brady has obviously been the most important Pats player for a long time, but its just as clear to non-homers that he's also had the best supporting cast of any QB.

Will you guys give this crap up already?? enough of the bogus, completely unnessecary opinions on who's Olines are better or who's#s will mean something or not. Honestly. Its pointless. LET IT GO. Please, for God's sake. Im begging you. Its painful.

I've never felt the need to use this smiley more than now.

Your takes are so biased, and borderline worthless its not even funny. New England had the 24th ranked defense in 2001 when Brady led them to their first title. Again, the 24th ranked defense. I dont mind you hating the guy, but atleast use some level of objectivity. Otherwise, just dont comment.

that's selective grading man, and you know it. go to NFL.com and look up standard ranking NFL defenses, and theyre sorted by yardage first and foremost. Grab a USAToday. or your local sports paper. Dont bushleague me, now. I knew what their scoring rank was. Like I said before, hideous bias.

And by the way, by those scoring standards youve cited, New England's scoring offense improved from 22nd in '00 to 6th in '01. Works both ways.

As do those 7 INTs and 3 TDs that he was 'running' that offense to last year in the playoffs. If thats what running an offense produces, then give me a hand puppet with 30TDs and 2 picks all day every day.

I've learned one thing in this thread and one thing only. That twitch is a blind homer and his opinion on anything related to the Pats is worthless.

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: twitch. · View this post · Un-ignore twitch

Good. Just one less kook in this world to worry about telling me Antowin Smith is the reason the Patriots were winning Superbowls.

 

[switz]

- No one really thinks Randy Moss at his peak is equivalent to Marvin Harrison.

Totally different kinds of receivers, not even fair to compare. Marvin is the consummate professional. Excellent hands, routes, blocking, etc. But Moss is a game breaker. While he may take plays off, he is heads and tails above Harrison in natural ability. Just imagine if Moss worked as hard as Harrison. He runs faster, jumps higher, but just isn't as polished.With Harrison, Mannign knew that when he threw to the spot where the WR was supposed to be per the playcall, Harrison would be there. With Brady, he knows he can throw it anywhere within 20 feet of Moss, and Moss will go get it.Totally different kinds of receivers. Both all-time greats.

- Same goes for the Pats line v the Colts line.

Pats line has always been superior. It's like the Den line, not a bunch of big names, but as a unit, they exceed the sum of their parts. Indy's OL had Glenn, but that's about it. Saturday was good, but a little overrated IMO.

- If you run up the score, don't expect people to consider your teams stats in the same light as players who set records while sitting in the 4th quarter of blowouts.

While Manning and the Colts often rested at the end of the season, I disagree with the sentiment that they sat in NUMEROUS 4th quarter blowouts. It happened, just not often. And Brady has gone off the field early a couple times this season - even though he also has come back on the field a few times to bump his TD total - which I call junk.

- Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.

That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

- Just because Indy's defense performed for one postseason in 7 years doesn't mean they weren't absent for the previous 6 postseasons.

Yeah, I love this idea that all of the sudden because the Colts D showed up for the playoffs last year that they weren't bad before then. Look it up, they sucked.

- Last year's Indy D was the worst regular season D statistically to win the superbowl ever, and one of only a handful to rank outside the top 10.

Yep... they finally put it together for the playoffs, but even in the regular season they weren't that good.

- Brady fumbled.

If you're referring to the "tuck" I agree 100%. How many times has that rule EVER been called?

- Adam Vinatieri is a beast.

Amazing kicker, clutch. And the #1 reason the Pats made it to, and won SuperBowls. If the Bills had Vinatieri in their first SB they would have won. Many QBs can put a team in FG distance. Without a solid K though, you lose.

- Tom Brady has obviously been the most important Pats player for a long time, but its just as clear to non-homers that he's also had the best supporting cast of any QB.

Agreed - and cast goes beyond offensive skill players, or even just 1 or 2 offensive skill players. Where ST gets the offense to start drives is support. The D keeping the opposition form scoring makes it a lot easier on the QB. It's a team sport, and I have no problem saying he Pats have consistently been one of the best teams for the past 4-5 years. That doesn't mean they win every SuperBowl, but as far as teamwork goes, they are the model for everyone else.

 

[switz]

Good. Just one less kook in this world to worry about telling me Antowin Smith is the reason the Patriots were winning Superbowls.

Not THE reason. But a large part of their win, and a large part of their offensive turnaround from 2000 to 2001. I don't see why you have a hard time swallowing someone complimenting a Pats player. He was a great pickup by Bill & Pioli, and a perfect example of how they built the Patriots into repeat champs.

 

[twitch]

Good. Just one less kook in this world to worry about telling me Antowin Smith is the reason the Patriots were winning Superbowls.

Not THE reason. But a large part of their win, and a large part of their offensive turnaround from 2000 to 2001. I don't see why you have a hard time swallowing someone complimenting a Pats player. He was a great pickup by Bill & Pioli, and a perfect example of how they built the Patriots into repeat champs.

If/when someone starts an Antowin Smith thread, believe me. Ill be one of the first to check in and compliment him. But recognizing the great efforts of RBs is a wash. Manning was 3-13 his 1st year QBing the team. The next year, in '99, the year Edgerrin James joined that team, they improved to 13-3. We know he contributed. Its no secret. But until now there hasnt been a real pressing need to mention it because it was an obvious fact. But we're not talking about Edgerrin James. And so why talk about Antwoin Smith? He was a signiciant part of the reason NE won Superbowls. Yes. It's just not nessecary to utilize him to make a Manning/Brady comparison. I dont like to hammer Manning. There's no need. About the worst Id bring up with him are his playoff stats like last year's performance where he threw 3TDs with 7 picks. That's about as negatively deep as I need to go with that. But I dont feel it nessecary to pick out every single reason as to why his team won the Superbowl last year. Their defense played great in the playoffs. Its no secret. But when making a case against Brady, it becomes annoying and unnessecary to dissect the specific rankings of NFL defenses and how theyre offically measured. I go to NFL.com, I click on team stats/defense from the year 2001 and I see what the ranking is. That simple. It is what it is. Old, cliche. But I dont need to pick apart rankings and sort them by scoring, 1st downs allowed, 3rd down conversion rate or whatever to see how they measure up. I just look for the offical rank. Ya get me? And Im not being a blind homer when I do that. Im really just trying to keep it simple. And I appreciate both for what they are. Great QBs. I called for an end to this thread because the overnegativites just seemed to hit a good stopping point.

By the way, here's the last thread I dropped. It didnt get many hits. Probably because it didnt have a negative spin. It was simple, unusual praise for an opposing team's fans. Go figure.

Go Get Your Rings

 

[PMENFAN]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

 

[switz]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

 

[twitch]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

There's one NE Pro Bowl season amongst that list. Brown in '01 when he was still in his prime. Given as usual is hurt again and worthless in TN. Branch as usual is hurt again and worthless in Seattle. Caldwell was standing on the sidelines of the Redskins game perfectly healthy and worthless. not even a #4. Glenn is hurt again and overpaid as always. Brown has been PUPed all year, but I love him, so need to comment. That's a little embarassing that you'd make the effort to drop that post with this information to present as part of your 'arguement'.

 

[switz]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

There's one NE Pro Bowl season amongst that list. Brown in '01 when he was still in his prime. Given as usual is hurt again and worthless in TN. Branch as usual is hurt again and worthless in Seattle. Caldwell was standing on the sidelines of the Redskins game perfectly healthy and worthless. not even a #4. Glenn is hurt again and overpaid as always. Brown has been PUPed all year, but I love him, so need to comment. That's a little embarassing that you'd make the effort to drop that post with this information to present as part of your 'arguement'.

First, it wasn't "my" argument. I just agreed with someone else who initially posted that.Second, no one asked about Pro Bowls - it was this ridiculous assertion that those players would be #4 WRs, or were #4 WRs when the Pats acquired them. That's simply not true.Third, I find it funny that you have to use injuries as part of your argument. If a players injured, sure they aren't going to play, but they also aren't being demoted to #4, and when healthy they will be back on the field. The fact they are injured now also has nothing to do with when they were on the Patriots team.Fourth, if anyone should be embarrassed, it's your sinking to personal attacks because you can't overcome the evidence that Brady didn't have a bunch of #4 WRs playing as his #1 as many NE homers, such as you, would love to attest.So, let me ask this - if any of those WRs made the ProBowl after leaving NE, who would you blame for the fact they didn't do it in NE? Would you blame on the OC for not calling an offense to highlight their talent? Would you blame it on the WR coach for not bringing their talent out? Because it's painfully obvious that you wouldn't ever blame it on Brady.BTW, the interesting thing is Glenn's ProBowl wasn't with Brady. And, he's put up better numbers than his NE ProBowl in Dallas already. Why couldn't Brady give him a ProBowl season? Interestingly, with Brady at QB, Glenn put up his worst numbers as a Patriot. And what does that say about the Patriots? That they'd give up a WR like Glenn, and then complain that Brady had to do it with "bad" WRs...

 

[PMENFAN]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

Glenn wouldn't play in NE. But, he has been a good #2, when healthy, in Dallas. Reche was a #3 in SD, behind the mighty Eric Parker at #2. They may have drafted him to be a #1 or #2, by he showed the world he wasn't up to the task.. Brady made him a better receiver than he will ever be again. IN 05 he was 5th on his team in receiving, behing Antonio Gates, Keenan McCardell, Eric Parker and Ladanian Tomlinson. Rec Yds TD Fum68 Reche Caldwell SD WR 28 352 1 2 Guy was a monster. I don't understand why SD let him go. Make that, why NE signed him.Branch. #1 in NE, never more than 5 TD's or over 1k. Has yet to reach those levels as the alleged #1 in Seattle. Same issue as NE. Can be completely shut down, and can't stay healthy. Troy Brown. Would see the same fate as Branch, Patten, Tony Simmons, et al if he left NE. I love Troy Brown, but his strength is staying ina system that maximizes his talent. Givens. This is his second year in TN. He, like David Patten in Wash, is worthless outside the NE system. Of these, we have Branch and Glenn. Glenn was there for Brady's first year, when he didn't play and was suspended for the end of the season and playoffs. I'm not sure he was ever on the field when Brady played. He had injury issues that lingered, and he wouldn't practice, which led to his suspension. We're left w/ Troy Brown. A guy I absolutely love as a gamer. But, make no mistake. If he left NE, his fate would have been the same as Patten, Givens, Brown, Simmons, etc. Bottom line, and the point of my post. Brady never had #1 caliber weapons, ever. He has them now, and we see what he can do with them. Something you're completely discounting. You did post some nice memories of free agent busts though. Should these guys pay Brady for getting them the contracts they got?

 

[twitch]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

There's one NE Pro Bowl season amongst that list. Brown in '01 when he was still in his prime. Given as usual is hurt again and worthless in TN. Branch as usual is hurt again and worthless in Seattle. Caldwell was standing on the sidelines of the Redskins game perfectly healthy and worthless. not even a #4. Glenn is hurt again and overpaid as always. Brown has been PUPed all year, but I love him, so need to comment. That's a little embarassing that you'd make the effort to drop that post with this information to present as part of your 'arguement'.

First, it wasn't "my" argument. I just agreed with someone else who initially posted that.Second, no one asked about Pro Bowls - it was this ridiculous assertion that those players would be #4 WRs, or were #4 WRs when the Pats acquired them. That's simply not true.Third, I find it funny that you have to use injuries as part of your argument. If a players injured, sure they aren't going to play, but they also aren't being demoted to #4, and when healthy they will be back on the field. The fact they are injured now also has nothing to do with when they were on the Patriots team.Fourth, if anyone should be embarrassed, it's your sinking to personal attacks because you can't overcome the evidence that Brady didn't have a bunch of #4 WRs playing as his #1 as many NE homers, such as you, would love to attest.So, let me ask this - if any of those WRs made the ProBowl after leaving NE, who would you blame for the fact they didn't do it in NE? Would you blame on the OC for not calling an offense to highlight their talent? Would you blame it on the WR coach for not bringing their talent out? Because it's painfully obvious that you wouldn't ever blame it on Brady.BTW, the interesting thing is Glenn's ProBowl wasn't with Brady. And, he's put up better numbers than his NE ProBowl in Dallas already. Why couldn't Brady give him a ProBowl season? Interestingly, with Brady at QB, Glenn put up his worst numbers as a Patriot. And what does that say about the Patriots? That they'd give up a WR like Glenn, and then complain that Brady had to do it with "bad" WRs...

Im done with you. after viewing many,many, many posts youve dropped, sparring with you is absolutely pointless. I pride myself on recognizing good points when theyre presented opposite my own. Ive done so for years of surfing football boards. But I try to maintain atleast some degree of objectivity. Ive never ignored a forum member, and I wont start now, but you just make very little sense. Not a personal attack. just an opinion. good luck on your endeavors.

 

[twitch]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

Glenn wouldn't play in NE. But, he has been a good #2, when healthy, in Dallas. Reche was a #3 in SD, behind the mighty Eric Parker at #2. They may have drafted him to be a #1 or #2, by he showed the world he wasn't up to the task.. Brady made him a better receiver than he will ever be again. IN 05 he was 5th on his team in receiving, behing Antonio Gates, Keenan McCardell, Eric Parker and Ladanian Tomlinson. Rec Yds TD Fum68 Reche Caldwell SD WR 28 352 1 2 Guy was a monster. I don't understand why SD let him go. Make that, why NE signed him.Branch. #1 in NE, never more than 5 TD's or over 1k. Has yet to reach those levels as the alleged #1 in Seattle. Same issue as NE. Can be completely shut down, and can't stay healthy. Troy Brown. Would see the same fate as Branch, Patten, Tony Simmons, et al if he left NE. I love Troy Brown, but his strength is staying ina system that maximizes his talent. Givens. This is his second year in TN. He, like David Patten in Wash, is worthless outside the NE system. Of these, we have Branch and Glenn. Glenn was there for Brady's first year, when he didn't play and was suspended for the end of the season and playoffs. I'm not sure he was ever on the field when Brady played. He had injury issues that lingered, and he wouldn't practice, which led to his suspension. We're left w/ Troy Brown. A guy I absolutely love as a gamer. But, make no mistake. If he left NE, his fate would have been the same as Patten, Givens, Brown, Simmons, etc. Bottom line, and the point of my post. Brady never had #1 caliber weapons, ever. He has them now, and we see what he can do with them. Something you're completely discounting. You did post some nice memories of free agent busts though. Should these guys pay Brady for getting them the contracts they got?

Glenn started one game that season with Brady and participated in 4. They went on to win 3 Superbowls without the guy's help, and Dallas is yet to win a playoff game with his services. Its that kind of simple point that closes a case.

 

[switz]

Glenn started one game that season with Brady and participated in 4. They went on to win 3 Superbowls without the guy's help, and Dallas is yet to win a playoff game with his services. Its that kind of simple point that closes a case.

No, it's that overly simplistic view of things that leads Patriot fans into giving Tom Brady all the credit for his teams' success.<sarcasm>No, really, you're right - the difference was Terry Glenn leaving. That's why NE went on to win, and he's really the only one holding DAL back from winning.</sarcasm>Rather, the point you make with your argument is that WRs don't matter at all. And if that's the case, why do Pats fans always try to explain away Tom's statistics with "he didn't have good WRs." And then the reason Manning has been so good is because of his WRs.You can't change your story to fit your argument.Fact is, WRs do matter to a degree, but they aren't all important, and they aren't the sole reason for success or failure. In addition, Tom hasn't had bad receivers to work with. He's had decent WRs, some of which went on to play #1 or #2 roles for other teams.Tom has won 3 SuperBowls because he's been on an excellent team. He's still not as good a QB as Manning, and in all likelihood, had Manning been on a team with a defense as good as the Patriots, he'd be on a team with more SB wins.Manning is a better QB, Brady is on a better team. Even with Brady's explosive offense this year I believe Manning on that team would put up better numbers.

 

[bostonfred]

Glenn started one game that season with Brady and participated in 4. They went on to win 3 Superbowls without the guy's help, and Dallas is yet to win a playoff game with his services. Its that kind of simple point that closes a case.

No, it's that overly simplistic view of things that leads Patriot fans into giving Tom Brady all the credit for his teams' success.<sarcasm>No, really, you're right - the difference was Terry Glenn leaving. That's why NE went on to win, and he's really the only one holding DAL back from winning.</sarcasm>Rather, the point you make with your argument is that WRs don't matter at all. And if that's the case, why do Pats fans always try to explain away Tom's statistics with "he didn't have good WRs." And then the reason Manning has been so good is because of his WRs.You can't change your story to fit your argument.Fact is, WRs do matter to a degree, but they aren't all important, and they aren't the sole reason for success or failure. In addition, Tom hasn't had bad receivers to work with. He's had decent WRs, some of which went on to play #1 or #2 roles for other teams.Tom has won 3 SuperBowls because he's been on an excellent team. He's still not as good a QB as Manning, and in all likelihood, had Manning been on a team with a defense as good as the Patriots, he'd be on a team with more SB wins.Manning is a better QB, Brady is on a better team. Even with Brady's explosive offense this year I believe Manning on that team would put up better numbers.

Seriously, switz, Glenn didn't play in 2001. You can't say that he had his worst season as a Patriot under Brady. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[PMENFAN]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

Glenn wouldn't play in NE. But, he has been a good #2, when healthy, in Dallas. Reche was a #3 in SD, behind the mighty Eric Parker at #2. They may have drafted him to be a #1 or #2, by he showed the world he wasn't up to the task.. Brady made him a better receiver than he will ever be again. IN 05 he was 5th on his team in receiving, behing Antonio Gates, Keenan McCardell, Eric Parker and Ladanian Tomlinson. Rec Yds TD Fum68 Reche Caldwell SD WR 28 352 1 2 Guy was a monster. I don't understand why SD let him go. Make that, why NE signed him.Branch. #1 in NE, never more than 5 TD's or over 1k. Has yet to reach those levels as the alleged #1 in Seattle. Same issue as NE. Can be completely shut down, and can't stay healthy. Troy Brown. Would see the same fate as Branch, Patten, Tony Simmons, et al if he left NE. I love Troy Brown, but his strength is staying ina system that maximizes his talent. Givens. This is his second year in TN. He, like David Patten in Wash, is worthless outside the NE system. Of these, we have Branch and Glenn. Glenn was there for Brady's first year, when he didn't play and was suspended for the end of the season and playoffs. I'm not sure he was ever on the field when Brady played. He had injury issues that lingered, and he wouldn't practice, which led to his suspension. We're left w/ Troy Brown. A guy I absolutely love as a gamer. But, make no mistake. If he left NE, his fate would have been the same as Patten, Givens, Brown, Simmons, etc. Bottom line, and the point of my post. Brady never had #1 caliber weapons, ever. He has them now, and we see what he can do with them. Something you're completely discounting. You did post some nice memories of free agent busts though. Should these guys pay Brady for getting them the contracts they got?

Glenn started one game that season with Brady and participated in 4. They went on to win 3 Superbowls without the guy's help, and Dallas is yet to win a playoff game with his services. Its that kind of simple point that closes a case.

I knew he wsa in the doghouse. I'm surprised he actually got into 4. Were a couple early, w/ Bledsoe in there? This isa moot point. Switz lives in a world where Deion Branch is the #1 in Seattle. Here are his #'s this year. 22 343 15.6 1 And Last53 725 13.7 4 Both years, he's #2 on the team. I know, last year he didn't have the benefit of camp. Extrapolate this year to a full season, and we're still behind last year #'2. Be honest. Are those #1 receiver #'s? Are those #3 numbers? I say a weak two to a 3 at best. In Switz's world Patten and Givens are 1's, or 2's in Washington and TN, though Givens has yet to play a down, and I'm not ever sure Patten is w/ Washington anymore. Though, when he was he was #4, #5. And Reche, well, he WAS drafted to be a #1 or #2, but he never made it above #3. In NE, he was the #1, until we picked Jabar Gaffney off the trash heap, and he became the #1, dropping Caldwell to 2. Now, he's in I believe Washington, getting free sideline tickets, undoubtably this is switz's world is a #2. And Through it all, we've had Troy Brown at #3. Do a search of my posts on Troy Brown to see my admiration for the guy. But, that doesn't make him a #1, or #2. Again, the assertion has always been Brady had inferior talent, and thus put up weaker numbers, though taking home the hardware. He maximized the potential of those around him. A great team player. I stand by said assertion. Would Manning put up better numbers? That's laughable. With his two #1's in Harrison and Wayne, he never has. Even in their pass happy season of 2004. Brady got better receivers, his numbers went up. I honesly don't know that Manning can get better receivers than he has. He's also had the benefit of working with them in the same offense for years. Brady and his team have been together about 6 months. In think it's nothing short of impressive. What was he 29-38 for ~308, 3TD's and 0 picks w/ 2 rushing TD's, and his passer rating went down? That speaks volumes.

 

[twitch]

QUOTE(Truman @ Nov 1 2007, 05:42 AM) - Brady has never had a number 1 guy who would have been a number 4 on any team in the league. Stop feeding us a bunch of bull####.That is totally true. Even the "cast offs" were #1 or #2 WRs for their previous teams.

Humor me. Where is this parade of #1 and #2's that have come through NE. Even after they left. Let's see them.

Let's see, who were Brady's #1 WRs?Terry Glenn - left to be the #1, then #2 for DALReche Caldwell - was drafted to be SDs #1 or #2 but had injury problems before coming to Pats, was #2 when on field for SDDeion Branch - SEA's #1 nowTroy Brown - never played with another team AFAIKDavid Givens - drafted by Pats in the 7th, I think played one year with TEN.So, the OP was right, none of Brady's #1 WRs were ever #4s for another team, nor would they be, with the exception of perhaps David Givens, who was a 7th round pick by the Patriots, hardly fodder for the Pats fans to complain about.

Glenn wouldn't play in NE. But, he has been a good #2, when healthy, in Dallas. Reche was a #3 in SD, behind the mighty Eric Parker at #2. They may have drafted him to be a #1 or #2, by he showed the world he wasn't up to the task.. Brady made him a better receiver than he will ever be again. IN 05 he was 5th on his team in receiving, behing Antonio Gates, Keenan McCardell, Eric Parker and Ladanian Tomlinson. Rec Yds TD Fum68 Reche Caldwell SD WR 28 352 1 2 Guy was a monster. I don't understand why SD let him go. Make that, why NE signed him.Branch. #1 in NE, never more than 5 TD's or over 1k. Has yet to reach those levels as the alleged #1 in Seattle. Same issue as NE. Can be completely shut down, and can't stay healthy. Troy Brown. Would see the same fate as Branch, Patten, Tony Simmons, et al if he left NE. I love Troy Brown, but his strength is staying ina system that maximizes his talent. Givens. This is his second year in TN. He, like David Patten in Wash, is worthless outside the NE system. Of these, we have Branch and Glenn. Glenn was there for Brady's first year, when he didn't play and was suspended for the end of the season and playoffs. I'm not sure he was ever on the field when Brady played. He had injury issues that lingered, and he wouldn't practice, which led to his suspension. We're left w/ Troy Brown. A guy I absolutely love as a gamer. But, make no mistake. If he left NE, his fate would have been the same as Patten, Givens, Brown, Simmons, etc. Bottom line, and the point of my post. Brady never had #1 caliber weapons, ever. He has them now, and we see what he can do with them. Something you're completely discounting. You did post some nice memories of free agent busts though. Should these guys pay Brady for getting them the contracts they got?

Glenn started one game that season with Brady and participated in 4. They went on to win 3 Superbowls without the guy's help, and Dallas is yet to win a playoff game with his services. Its that kind of simple point that closes a case.

I knew he wsa in the doghouse. I'm surprised he actually got into 4. Were a couple early, w/ Bledsoe in there? This isa moot point. Switz lives in a world where Deion Branch is the #1 in Seattle. Here are his #'s this year. 22 343 15.6 1 And Last53 725 13.7 4 Both years, he's #2 on the team. I know, last year he didn't have the benefit of camp. Extrapolate this year to a full season, and we're still behind last year #'2. Be honest. Are those #1 receiver #'s? Are those #3 numbers? I say a weak two to a 3 at best. In Switz's world Patten and Givens are 1's, or 2's in Washington and TN, though Givens has yet to play a down, and I'm not ever sure Patten is w/ Washington anymore. Though, when he was he was #4, #5. And Reche, well, he WAS drafted to be a #1 or #2, but he never made it above #3. In NE, he was the #1, until we picked Jabar Gaffney off the trash heap, and he became the #1, dropping Caldwell to 2. Now, he's in I believe Washington, getting free sideline tickets, undoubtably this is switz's world is a #2. And Through it all, we've had Troy Brown at #3. Do a search of my posts on Troy Brown to see my admiration for the guy. But, that doesn't make him a #1, or #2. Again, the assertion has always been Brady had inferior talent, and thus put up weaker numbers, though taking home the hardware. He maximized the potential of those around him. A great team player. I stand by said assertion. Would Manning put up better numbers? That's laughable. With his two #1's in Harrison and Wayne, he never has. Even in their pass happy season of 2004. Brady got better receivers, his numbers went up. I honesly don't know that Manning can get better receivers than he has. He's also had the benefit of working with them in the same offense for years. Brady and his team have been together about 6 months. In think it's nothing short of impressive. What was he 29-38 for ~308, 3TD's and 0 picks w/ 2 rushing TD's, and his passer rating went down? That speaks volumes.

I couldnt find the game logs dating back to the '01 season, but I believe it was the first 4, or atleast early. But Im not sure. But the point we both understand with Glenn was that he wasnt let go because he couldnt play. Sure, he had an injury history and wasnt worth his paycheck there anyway. But it was more of a team chemistry issue with him. He'd become a distraction because of some off-field stuff, it was only Belichick's 2nd season, and he'd seen enough. But NE traded him to Green Bay for two 4th round picks. Considering they got Randy Moss for just one 4th rounder, Id say they made a pretty good deal. Ive never had a problem with Glenn. But I know he was still smoking weed back then, and it couldnt be tolerated. He always played hard when he was out there. I have no doubt the move ultimately helped Terry Glenn. Im not sure if Glenn got a ring for that season. He may have.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Deion Branch was the best receiver Brady HAD thrown to and he is a solid receiver when he is on the field. Troy Brown is and has been a solid receiver as well. Both guys are more complementary receivers, but they are both clearly starters (Brown in his prime years).

The rest were not #2 receivers. Brady's WR supporting cast was not very good, but it was not a joke either. McNabb has had worse over his career even if you include TO. BTW, Brady's OL gives him good protection and the coaching around him is as good as it gets.

Enough already with the hyperbole.

 

[Road Warriors]

Deion Branch was the best receiver Brady HAD thrown to and he is a solid receiver when he is on the field. Troy Brown is and has been a solid receiver as well. Both guys are more complementary receivers, but they are both clearly starters (Brown in his prime years).The rest were not #2 receivers. Brady's WR supporting cast was not very good, but it was not a joke either. McNabb has had worse over his career even if you include TO. BTW, Brady's OL gives him good protection and the coaching around him is as good as it gets.Enough already with the hyperbole.

Both Branch and Troy Brown are well suited to be slot receiver/ possession receivers. They both excel at finding a hole in the coverage and moving the chains. These are better football players than fanatasy receivers. Givens was actually quite good in the system and had more #1 WR type qualities ( size, strength, although not as much deep speed ) than either of the other 2. Givens may have developed more had he stayed with a top quality QB in Brady rather than cashing in on a 60+ catch season and moving on to TEN.Caldwell is a joke. Some here love to point to his 1st round draft slot, but play on the field suggests he's barely rosterable in the NFL. Ryan Leaf was the 2nd overall pick. Do you want to argue that he should be considered as good as Manning? All of this discussion about Brady's weapons over the course of his career, prior to this one, SHOULD be easily summed up. Brady has played with several good football players. Manning has played with a 1st ballot HOF in Harrison and a potential HOF ( lots of time left to prove that out one way or the other ) in Wayne. No need to denigrate the talent Brady has had, but under no circumstances can anyone objectively look at the talent level both QBs have played with and determine its been even close.