P.S.A. For Your Job - Air Conditioner Information (1 Viewer)

[ChiefD]

That price is high. Like way high in my opinion. If we were to do that job here in KC with similar Carrier equipment you are probably looking at $11,000.

Now, take into account actual labor costs and such for your area.....ok....let's call it $15,000 for that job. So to me that cost would be somewhat reasonable.

But I'm basing our costs on what our install labor rate is for two guys for a full day + I added an extra 8 hours just for misc costing.

Now....we don't see much Daikan here. But from what I understand it's pretty good equipment.

I'd get another bid for sure.

Bummer. :( Thank you so much for taking a look!

The only thing I would add is if they are doing a ton of ductwork. I saw where they were doing some ductwork - probably around the furnace to accommodate the new evaporator coil and such. But if they are adding supply runs and cutting in new air returns and such that could make the cost get close to your number.

Yeah, none of that is being done.

I just called the first place yet again and got through to someone. They said they'll have me the quotes by 2 pm. (We'll see.) But they were recommending to go with a 13 SEER, which will make a big difference. Any thoughts on SEER rating for a small-ish house in a usually temperate climate? Thank you again SO much!

Yeah, I would agree with that. I would put the minimum required by law in a climate like yours. That would save you a little money. Not as much as you would think - probably $500ish. For Carrier it would be about that much of a difference.

Great info as always, thanks. I did assume it would be a bigger difference than that. Now I'm on pins and needles to see what the other guys say!

Yeah, me too. Post that one when you get it. I'm curious. Of course, that may just be what stuff costs in your area but that cost shocked me.

 

[krista4]

Yeah, me too. Post that one when you get it. I'm curious. Of course, that may just be what stuff costs in your area but that cost shocked me.

OK, here we go. I actually got four proposals from the first company, as at the time we were deciding between the 96% efficiency and the 80% efficiency. This guy - who spent nearly 90 minutes with us explaining all the differences, most of which I immediately forgot - generally recommended not "upgrading" to the 96% one based on our plans for how long we'd live here, how we use it, etc. But he gave us two quotes for each, one for a single-stage unit and one for two-stage. He did not recommend getting the fully variable-stage one.

So on the 80% efficiency one, here are the details (I'll put in spoilers so as not to drive people insane). For single-stage the base price is $14,826.57:

Spoiler: Details

1 4PXCBD30BS3 HE DOWNFLOW HORIZONTAL RT COIL
1 4TTR3030 XR13 Air Conditioner
1 S8X1B060M4P 80% SINGLE STAGE GAS FURNACE
1 TH8320R 1003 3H/2C RedLINK HP Thermostat
1 3/4x3/8 50FT UP TO 50FT BRAZED INSULATED LINESET
1 ConDrain Gravity CONDENSATE DRAIN
1 GP-RECON RECONNECT GAS PIPE AT UNIT
1 ODU PAD CONDENSER PAD
1 TRANSITION Transition material and labor between ductwork and or equipment
1 Furn-Coil-1

Setting a new furnace and AC coil ready for operation easily accessible on 3-4
sides

1 ODU1 OUTDOOR UNIT 1 - DIFFICULTY LEVEL ONE
1 S1 Project Management and Overview
2 CONNECTION CONNECT TO EXISTING FLUE SYSTEM
1 ELEC-CLASS B STICKER LOW VOLTAGE- MAY GET INSPECTED - PER SYSTEM
1 ELEC-EXTEND IDU GAS Extend existing gas furnace electrical up to 8 FT
1 SUB ELEC-ODU CONV PLUG Wiring of ODU and convenience plug up to 50 FT from panel
1 Filter Box Best Fit Filter Box and filter
1 FURNACE/ELEC ESA Energy Savings Agreement

Inclusions
• Ensure proper drainage
• Complete system start up
• Quality assurance review
• Equipment selection and sizing per our Heating & Cooling load calculations.
• Low voltage permit
• Programable Thermostat.
• Clean up worksite daily.
• Trane coil warranties. 4TXC/4TXA: 10-years parts (registered). 5-years parts (not-registered).
• Evacuate refrigerant system, removes air and water
• Trane XV95/XC95/XV80/XC80/S9V/S9X/S8X Lifetime heat exchanger and 10 years parts warranty on registered
equipment. Equipment registration required
• Ensure proper amount of refrigerant in AC or HP
• New electrical circuit
• Equipment Pad to stabilize outdoor unit
• Includes Home owner walk through and training.
• Trane XR warranty 10 years (compressor, coil, parts and system). Only when customer registers equipment. 5 years
(compressor, coil, parts and system) if not registered.
• 1 Yearly Maintenance
• Remove and recycle used equipment
Exclusions
• Concrete cutting & coring
• Modifications to provide access to equipment per code
• Repair and warranty of existing equipment, materials, and electrical
• Painting, Patching & Drywall Repair
• Duct sealing required by WA Energy Code Effective Jan 1, 2011
• Combustion air per code
• Labor to provide access to install for inspections
• Electrical work does not include pre-existing electrical issues unless otherwise stated in the instructions
• Required Mechanical permit (to be provided by client)
• Zone system recommended by ACCA Manual J for improved comfort and efficiency

And for the two-stage, the base price is $15,288.63:

Spoiler: Details

Qty Model Number Description
1 4PXCBD30BS3 HE DOWNFLOW HORIZONTAL RT COIL
1 4TTR3030 XR13 Air Conditioner
1 S8X2B060M4P 80% TWO STAGE GAS FURNACE
1 TH8320R 1003 3H/2C RedLINK HP Thermostat
1 3/4x3/8 50FT UP TO 50FT BRAZED INSULATED LINESET
1 ConDrain Gravity CONDENSATE DRAIN
1 GP-RECON RECONNECT GAS PIPE AT UNIT
1 ODU PAD CONDENSER PAD
1 TRANSITION Transition material and labor between ductwork and or equipment
1 Furn-Coil-1

Setting a new furnace and AC coil ready for operation easily accessible on 3-4
sides

1 ODU1 OUTDOOR UNIT 1 - DIFFICULTY LEVEL ONE
1 S1 Project Management and Overview
2 CONNECTION CONNECT TO EXISTING FLUE SYSTEM
1 ELEC-CLASS B STICKER LOW VOLTAGE- MAY GET INSPECTED - PER SYSTEM
1 ELEC-EXTEND IDU GAS Extend existing gas furnace electrical up to 8 FT
1 SUB ELEC-ODU CONV PLUG Wiring of ODU and convenience plug up to 50 FT from panel
1 Filter Box Best Fit Filter Box and filter
1 FURNACE/ELEC ESA Energy Savings Agreement

Inclusions/exclusions I assume are the same.

 

[ChiefD]

I like the look of those two bids much better. I do have a couple of questions that I would want clarified:

1. How did they arrive at how much cooling you need? Your first company recommended a 2.5 ton. The second company is recommending a 3 ton. A half ton doesn’t seem like much but on a 2000 square foot house 2.5 ton might be light.

For comparison, my house is 1900 square feet and I have a 3.5 ton air conditioner. Granted, our climate is hotter but if you might get some 90 degrees days from time to time it might make a major difference. It may sound weird, but most of our cooling days here the temps outside are mid to upper 80’s. Air conditioning is normally designed for a 20 degree temperature differential. So when it gets to 90 degrees, you should be able to cool your house to 70 degrees.

A very basic rule of thumb is one ton of cooling for approximately 500 square feet of space. Now, that can change dramatically if you have great insulation. High quality windows. Lots of shade. Not a ton of glass. So for a 2000 square foot house, 2.5 ton might worry me. If they ran a load calculation you would know for sure. Ask them about that.

2. Is your furnace currently in an attic?

 

[krista4]

I like the look of those two bids much better. I do have a couple of questions that I would want clarified:

1. How did they arrive at how much cooling you need? Your first company recommended a 2.5 ton. The second company is recommending a 3 ton. A half ton doesn’t seem like much but on a 2000 square foot house 2.5 ton might be light.

For comparison, my house is 1900 square feet and I have a 3.5 ton air conditioner. Granted, our climate is hotter but if you might get some 90 degrees days from time to time it might make a major difference. It may sound weird, but most of our cooling days here the temps outside are mid to upper 80’s. Air conditioning is normally designed for a 20 degree temperature differential. So when it gets to 90 degrees, you should be able to cool your house to 70 degrees.

A very basic rule of thumb is one ton of cooling for approximately 500 square feet of space. Now, that can change dramatically if you have great insulation. High quality windows. Lots of shade. Not a ton of glass. So for a 2000 square foot house, 2.5 ton might worry me. If they ran a load calculation you would know for sure. Ask them about that.

2. Is your furnace currently in an attic?

Interesting about the tonnage. I will have to ask him, but from his cover letter to me he was actually deciding between a 2-ton and a 2.5-ton. He said, "There are 2 proposals that use 80% efficient gas furnaces and 2 that use 96% efficient gas furnaces with a 2.5 ton air conditioner. The air conditioner is on the large end of fit as a 2 ton system would do well keeping your home comfortable, but the 2.5 ton system would do better accommodating hotter days."

The house is more windows than not, at least on the first floor. The east side has only one small window but the west and north are almost entirely windows. House is a little older (1997) so probably not the most up-to-date windows, though I've not noticed any issues with insulation. But I expect in the summer the house will be comfortable in the mornings but get quite hot on the west side as the afternoon goes on.

I can ask for more information about how they chose this one. I'm also going to see if I have the info for what they put in my last place, out of curiosity.

The furnace is in the garage.

 

[krista4]

The one they put in the last place was Trane Model 4PXCBD24BS3. I googled but can't tell what tonnage is, as I'm finding it could be 1.5 or 2. In any case, not more than 2, is that correct? The last place was slightly smaller (maybe 150 sq ft difference) but had a lot less natural light.

 

[Orange&Blue]

@ChiefD , like many here, I have a favor to ask! If you're too busy to comment, I understand. Appreciate any thoughts you have if you have time.

Need a new furnace and also want to install central air. House is not big (approx. 2000 sq ft, two levels) and in a temperate climate. Rarely goes below freezing here or above 80, though the latter has been becoming much more frequent the past few years.

Based on your advice, I was looking to get a Trane or Carrier brand, and I contacted the company that had installed AC at my last place and uses Trane products. They spent a lot of time with me explaining options and I felt great about them. They said they'd get me estimates by the next day and then...poof, ghosted me. I've reached out (nicely) via email and phone over the course of two weeks, but not a peep. So I got in touch with a company that my electrician had recommended. Excellent reviews across the board, locally owned, feel very good about them, but they use the Daikin products that I asked you about before. I know you don't have experience with these, but I wondered if you could take a look at the below and see if everything seems to fit what you'd expect to see. (We specifically wanted 80% efficiency based on a bunch of discussions with the prior company.)

In terms of price, just wanted to mention we are in one of the most expensive areas of the company for everything, in particular labor. The amount listed below doesn't include some electrical and permitting, but I'm dealing with those separately. Thanks!

install:3 ton Daikin Fit
DAIKIN FURNACE CHANGE OUT ADD AC
Remove and recycle existing equipment
following all local and EPA codes
Install new DAIKIN variable speed 2 stage 80%
80 k btu down flow NG furnace B cabinet
Install new line set sized to manufacture
specifications
Level and set composite pad and risers
Install DAIKIN variable speed side discharge
inverter AC
Secure heatpump to pad
Modify and seal duct transitions to retro fit new
AH
Install Daikin One Wi-Fi T-stat
Braze all connection with silfos while purging
nitrogen
Pressure test with nitrogen @350psi
Vacuum system @500 microns per ASHRAE
standards
Charge system with sub cool method
Install lock caps
Install NEW condensate pump
Duct clean and sanitize accessible ducts

Warranty includes:
Life time craftsmanship warranty for work
performed by us
2 year no lemon warranty
12 year unit replacement
12 year all parts
12 year labor warranty
2 year maintenance

19,800.00

I just got a quote for Daikin as well in OKC. 3.5.ton, 14 seer system (80% efficient), downflow, programmable thermostat (not wireless), new lines and power connects, fusible disconnect, raise a/c off ground per code, QB1 drain blow out, SS2 float switch, Ion plasma air purifier.... $12.7k.

12 year warranty for parts, 12 year for compressor and 20 year for heat exchanger, 1 year labor.

 

[Orange&Blue]

The one they put in the last place was Trane Model 4PXCBD24BS3. I googled but can't tell what tonnage is, as I'm finding it could be 1.5 or 2. In any case, not more than 2, is that correct? The last place was slightly smaller (maybe 150 sq ft difference) but had a lot less natural light.

I think the 24 refers in that model numbers refers to BTU which is a 2 ton.

 

[krista4]

I just got a quote for Daikin as well in OKC. 3.5.ton, 14 seer system (80% efficient), downflow, programmable thermostat (not wireless), new lines and power connects, fusible disconnect, raise a/c off ground per code, QB1 drain blow out, SS2 float switch, Ion plasma air purifier.... $12.7k.

12 year warranty for parts, 12 year for compressor and 20 year for heat exchanger, 1 year labor.

I think the 24 refers in that model numbers refers to BTU which is a 2 ton.

Thank you!

 

[ChiefD]

The one they put in the last place was Trane Model 4PXCBD24BS3. I googled but can't tell what tonnage is, as I'm finding it could be 1.5 or 2. In any case, not more than 2, is that correct? The last place was slightly smaller (maybe 150 sq ft difference) but had a lot less natural light.

I think the 24 refers in that model numbers refers to BTU which is a 2 ton.

Correct. One ton = 12000 btu.

So the 2.5 ton is 30000
3 ton 36000

And so on.

 

[ChiefD]

I like the look of those two bids much better. I do have a couple of questions that I would want clarified:

1. How did they arrive at how much cooling you need? Your first company recommended a 2.5 ton. The second company is recommending a 3 ton. A half ton doesn’t seem like much but on a 2000 square foot house 2.5 ton might be light.

For comparison, my house is 1900 square feet and I have a 3.5 ton air conditioner. Granted, our climate is hotter but if you might get some 90 degrees days from time to time it might make a major difference. It may sound weird, but most of our cooling days here the temps outside are mid to upper 80’s. Air conditioning is normally designed for a 20 degree temperature differential. So when it gets to 90 degrees, you should be able to cool your house to 70 degrees.

A very basic rule of thumb is one ton of cooling for approximately 500 square feet of space. Now, that can change dramatically if you have great insulation. High quality windows. Lots of shade. Not a ton of glass. So for a 2000 square foot house, 2.5 ton might worry me. If they ran a load calculation you would know for sure. Ask them about that.

2. Is your furnace currently in an attic?

Interesting about the tonnage. I will have to ask him, but from his cover letter to me he was actually deciding between a 2-ton and a 2.5-ton. He said, "There are 2 proposals that use 80% efficient gas furnaces and 2 that use 96% efficient gas furnaces with a 2.5 ton air conditioner. The air conditioner is on the large end of fit as a 2 ton system would do well keeping your home comfortable, but the 2.5 ton system would do better accommodating hotter days."

The house is more windows than not, at least on the first floor. The east side has only one small window but the west and north are almost entirely windows. House is a little older (1997) so probably not the most up-to-date windows, though I've not noticed any issues with insulation. But I expect in the summer the house will be comfortable in the mornings but get quite hot on the west side as the afternoon goes on.

I can ask for more information about how they chose this one. I'm also going to see if I have the info for what they put in my last place, out of curiosity.

The furnace is in the garage.

I would most definitely clarify this. He is guessing. No effing way do I put a two ton in your house knowing just what you typed up. And like I said before, 2.5 ton might be light.

With a house that has never had cooling I would insist on a load calculation. Anybody worth their salt can and will do this for free.

 

[krista4]

I like the look of those two bids much better. I do have a couple of questions that I would want clarified:

1. How did they arrive at how much cooling you need? Your first company recommended a 2.5 ton. The second company is recommending a 3 ton. A half ton doesn’t seem like much but on a 2000 square foot house 2.5 ton might be light.

For comparison, my house is 1900 square feet and I have a 3.5 ton air conditioner. Granted, our climate is hotter but if you might get some 90 degrees days from time to time it might make a major difference. It may sound weird, but most of our cooling days here the temps outside are mid to upper 80’s. Air conditioning is normally designed for a 20 degree temperature differential. So when it gets to 90 degrees, you should be able to cool your house to 70 degrees.

A very basic rule of thumb is one ton of cooling for approximately 500 square feet of space. Now, that can change dramatically if you have great insulation. High quality windows. Lots of shade. Not a ton of glass. So for a 2000 square foot house, 2.5 ton might worry me. If they ran a load calculation you would know for sure. Ask them about that.

2. Is your furnace currently in an attic?

Interesting about the tonnage. I will have to ask him, but from his cover letter to me he was actually deciding between a 2-ton and a 2.5-ton. He said, "There are 2 proposals that use 80% efficient gas furnaces and 2 that use 96% efficient gas furnaces with a 2.5 ton air conditioner. The air conditioner is on the large end of fit as a 2 ton system would do well keeping your home comfortable, but the 2.5 ton system would do better accommodating hotter days."

The house is more windows than not, at least on the first floor. The east side has only one small window but the west and north are almost entirely windows. House is a little older (1997) so probably not the most up-to-date windows, though I've not noticed any issues with insulation. But I expect in the summer the house will be comfortable in the mornings but get quite hot on the west side as the afternoon goes on.

I can ask for more information about how they chose this one. I'm also going to see if I have the info for what they put in my last place, out of curiosity.

The furnace is in the garage.

I would most definitely clarify this. He is guessing. No effing way do I put a two ton in your house knowing just what you typed up. And like I said before, 2.5 ton might be light.

With a house that has never had cooling I would insist on a load calculation. Anybody worth their salt can and will do this for free.

Thanks! In their defense, they have not yet been in my house. We had an appointment scheduled for the same day that we got a small sheet of ice and my street was closed (on a big hill). Rather than rescheduling, we did a 90-minute Zoom call where I walked him through and he asked a lot of questions. We did talk about all the windows, and he had pulled up all the information from the county website on my house as well as all the pictures from Zillow and elsewhere. The proposals from this company do say they'll still need to do a walkthrough, which I'm trying to schedule.

 

[ChiefD]

Ah, ok. Makes sense.

 

[krista4]

@ChiefD , thoughts on American Standard brand? I’m in the midst of a third quote.

 

[ChiefD]

@ChiefD , thoughts on American Standard brand? I’m in the midst of a third quote.

They make good stuff. American Standard and Trane are the same company. I would have no problem putting their equipment in my house.

 

[krista4]

@ChiefD , thoughts on American Standard brand? I’m in the midst of a third quote.

They make good stuff. American Standard and Trane are the same company. I would have no problem putting their equipment in my house.

Excellent, thanks!

Had to have a new company out because the first one, despite my emailing them immediately to say basically "take my money and maybe even give me a bigger AC unit" has never replied yet again to emails or a phone call.

I have three new quotes. This guy, like the others, recommended a 2.5-ton AC. In our area, we get an average of 97 cooling days per year. And as we walked through, it's really only the one side of the house (west) that gets tons of light and has big windows everywhere. There are more trees and shading on the other sides, and on the east nearly no windows at all. He did a ton of tests and spent two hours here, so I feel good about it.

Anyway, any thoughts on 96% efficiency vs. standard efficiency? At first I thought we were going 96, then the first guy kinda talked us into 80, and now this guy is more neutral on that and I can't decide. We also discussed 16 SEER vs. 13, so I have three quotes - 80% two-stage 13 SEER, 96% two-stage 13 SEER, 96% two-stage 16 SEER. All are 10-year labor warranties, which is better than others were offering. Any thoughts on any of this would be soooooooooooooooooooooo appreciated. I'm completely confused at this point. Oh, the local gas company gives a $650 rebate on the 96%.

Spoiler: 96% 16 SEER

High Efficiency gas furnace, two stage with Silver 16
Task # Description Quantity
0405-Transition
Fitting

Ductwork Transition Fitting
Ductwork transition modification in order to accommodate new HVAC system installation.

1.00

7578-Columbia
Media (G150)

Columbia Media Air Cleaner (G150)
The CAP G150 Filter Boxes were developed as an aesthetically pleasing filter box to go with
your HVAC system. Price includes 4" stardard Merv 8 pleated air filter.
Heavy Duty 20 gauge construction on both the outer wrap frame and the inner
wrap/filter rail
The 20 gauge cabinet design is also spot welded for sturdiness and longer life
Durable, powder coated doors result in a durable finish
The two piece door is assembled and sealed with 4 strong magnetic attached
The magnet and gasket on the filter door together result in a sealed unit that is
secured
Will accommodate HP13, MERV 11 HRC and HRG style filters in specific size for each
unit
Includes 4" Merv 8 pleated air filter

1.00

0432-Garage
Safety Bollard

Garage Safety Bollard
Galvanized steel bollard. Per code, furnaces located in a residential garage must be located
or protected to avoid physical damage from vehicles. Manufactured locally (Woodinville) by
Kirkwood Industries.

1.00

0387-Permits -
Mechanical & El

Permits - Mechanical & Electrical
We obtain the necessary local city or county permits (on your behalf) required to perform
each of our installations. This helps ensure that each of our installations meet local city and
municipality codes, as well as meeting our own standards. Customer will be required to be
home during permit inspection, which can consist of multiple visits. Does not include
bringing existing electrical up to current codes. Customer will be responsible for any/all
electrical updates required to pass inspection.

1.00

0002-Condensate
Pump

Condensation Package - Pump or Gravity Drain System
Consists of either a condensate pump which is used to pump the condensation produced in
a heating or cooling system outside or gravity drain system. Only includes outlet if required
by code.

1.00

0325-Cascade Nat
Gas Reb

Cascade Natural Gas Instant Rebate - 95% Furnace -$650.00
Cascade Natural Gas offers eligible property owners a $400 rebate towards the purchase
and installation of a qualifying high-efficiency gas furnace.
Additional rebates may be available from product manufacturers, so ask your comfort
adviser about any additional options.

1.00

0391-Service
Outlet - HP/AC

Disconnect & Whip Service Outlet - HP/AC
Service outlet dedicated to operating a Heat Pump and/or Air Conditioning system.

1.00

0411-2.5 Ton -
Line Set Add-On

2.5 Ton - Line Set Add-On w/ Electrical
Continuous, factory applied, insulation line-sets offer a better way to field-connect
split system air conditioners, heat pumps, and ductless heat pumps. They have fewer
seams which reduce moisture entry, bothersome dripping, and decreased system
efficiency.
Nitrogen pressure leak testing and vacuum down of line set
Current line-set pricing assumes there are no major obstacles when running
refrigerant piping.

1.00


Gold 95-S9X2 Dn

2.5T-60 BTU-
American Standard Gold S9X2 95% Gas Furnace - Two Stage


Gold S9X2 - Two Stage 5-Speed High Efficiency ECM - 60K BTU, Upflow, Horizontal
Left/Right

1.00

American Standard AMSS9X2B060D3PSBA
4TXCB004DS3HCA 4TX Evaporator Coil - Aluminum High Efficiency Staged System Cased Convertible Coil

(Upflow/Downflow/Horizontal)

[deleted info about coils to save space in this post]

1.00

American Standard 4TXCB004DS3HCB
R410AC 2.5t AMS

16 SEER 1 Stg-
American Standard Silver 16 Air Conditioner - Single Stage


1.00

Keep operating noise to a minimum, even on the hottest days, with this air
conditioner system.
Our home air conditioning systems cool with an environmentally friendly refrigerant
that is ozone-safe.
Get more efficient and reliable cooling thanks to the Spine FinTM coil and durable
DurationTM compressor in this air conditioner system.
We protected the system from the elements with a rust-resistant coating, screws and
basepan.
10-year warranty on compressor.
10-year warranty on coil.
10-year warranty on internal functional parts.
R410 AC 2.5t Silver 16 16 Seer 1 Stg 1ph

American Standard 4A7A6030J1000B

Sub-Total $13,896.58

Spoiler: 96% 13 SEER

High Efficiency gas furnace, two stage with Silver 13 A/C

[I'm deleting the middle stuff as it's the same furnace.]

1.00

American Standard 4TXCB004DS3HCB
R410AC 2.5t AMS
13 SEER 1 Stg

American Standard Silver 13 Air Conditioner - Single Stage
With the Silver 13 central air conditioning unit, you do not need to sacrifice impressive
comfort for energy savings. A system that works smarter.
High SEER efficiency up to 14.75 when installed with certain American Standard
Heating & Air Conditioning indoor products
By surpassing government efficiency standards, you can save up to 38 percent on your
cooling energy usage while reducing greenhouse gas emissions* with this central air
conditioning unit.
This central air system's design is an economical option for efficient and reliable
cooling.

1.00

Cools with an environmentally friendly refrigerant that is ozone-safe.
This A/C unit's rust-resistant coating, screws and basepan protect your system from
the elements.
10-year warranty on compressor.
10-year warranty on coil.
10-year warranty on internal functional parts.
R410 AC 2.5t Silver 13 13 Seer 1 Stg 1ph

American Standard 4A7A3030H1000N

Sub-Total $13,239.58

Spoiler: 80% SEER 13

Gas furnace, two stage with Silver 13 A/C
Task # Description Quantity
0405-Transition

[deleting all the background stuff since the same as above.]


Gold 80-S8X2

Multi 3T-60 BTU-
American Standard Gold S8X2 Gas Furnace

Gently provides just the right amount of cozy comfort. A system that works smarter.
Multi-stage gas furnace reduces temperature swings and may help lower your heating

1.00

Multi-stage gas furnace reduces temperature swings and may help lower your heating
bills, with two-stage heating, running at an energy-saving 65-percent capacity more
than 80 percent of the time
80 AFUE, meaning this gas furnace converts up to 80 percent of the fuel you pay for
into heat for your home
Runs quietly and evenly distributes warm air to every room
Significantly surpasses government efficiency standards, helping you save on your
energy bills while reducing greenhouse emissions.
20-year warranty on heat exchanger
10-year warranty on internal functional parts
Gold 80 S8X2-2 Stg ECM Constant Torque Multi Poise (34")

American Standard AMSS8X2B060M4PSCA
R410AC 2.5t AMS
13 SEER 1 Stg
[deleting since same AC as the second one above.]

American Standard 4TXCB004DS3HCB

Sub-Total $12,780.58

 

[ChiefD]

You may as well go with the 96% furnace, since with the rebate your difference between system three and the others is about $600. That's worth it for the extra efficiency.

I'd probably go with the second system you listed. You basically save $600 on the AC side, and with your few cooling days it make take you the life of the equipment to pay that off. Maybe.

 

[krista4]

You may as well go with the 96% furnace, since with the rebate your difference between system three and the others is about $600. That's worth it for the extra efficiency.

I'd probably go with the second system you listed. You basically save $600 on the AC side, and with your few cooling days it make take you the life of the equipment to pay that off. Maybe.

Thank you! You have been incredible help with this whole process, which makes me feel good and confident with this!

 

[Osaurus]

At least those quotes are all close. I never see that here in FL

 

[Osaurus]

Hi there, @ChiefD. Big fan of AC talk. I am starting to compile quotes for a 4 ton 16 seer (or whatever the minimum is now) Lennox Merit Series Heat Pump (POS) for a 2,000 SF house. Yes, I have had many issues with this system. The first Lennox system I had lasted 10+ years in Florida. This one? I'll be lucky if it sees 8 (I am in year 8). Soooo....I am looking for best brand recommendations for comparable units from other manufacturers. I'll get to prices once I have apples to apples systems for comparison. TIA

ETA: We don't task these units too hard. The house stays at 78 in the Summer and at 68 in the "Winter" (when heat is actually needed). No variable speed stuff either and it's 1 zone.

 

[Osaurus]

Getting quotes for Carrier and Rheem/York systems so far this week. Have calls in for Trane/American Standard and Daikin/Goodman so hopefully more quotes next week.

 

[ChiefD]

Getting quotes for Carrier and Rheem/York systems so far this week. Have calls in for Trane/American Standard and Daikin/Goodman so hopefully more quotes next week.

Sounds good. Keep me posted on pricing and such. You can send me a PM with pricing once you get them all compiled.

 

[Osaurus]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

 

[The Z Machine]

I've been happy with the Carrier quality. ChiefD hooked me up with a good local installer too.

 

[Osaurus]

I've been happy with the Carrier quality. ChiefD hooked me up with a good local installer too.

I have a Carrier guy coming over tomorrow morning

 

[ChiefD]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that some more.

Usually the two-stage function is on the outdoor unit. The air handler's control board normally handles the staging coupled with a two-stage thermostat. I'm guessing you are electric heat down there.

The only thing that should really change the height of the air handler is the evap coil, and that usually is because of efficiency - not staging. The taller the coil the more efficient your system can get. How much height do you have in that space?

 

[Osaurus]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that some more.

Usually the two-stage function is on the outdoor unit. The air handler's control board normally handles the staging coupled with a two-stage thermostat. I'm guessing you are electric heat down there.

The only thing that should really change the height of the air handler is the evap coil, and that usually is because of efficiency - not staging. The taller the coil the more efficient your system can get. How much height do you have in that space?

Yes. Electric heat down here. 73” I believe

 

[beer 30]

@ChiefD I didn't even think to ask, you didn't happen to be at the AHR show in Atlanta last week did you? So much confusion about the new refrigerant rules, thought we would get some answers and I mostly just have more questions now. Government can **** up just about anything.

 

[ChiefD]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that some more.

Usually the two-stage function is on the outdoor unit. The air handler's control board normally handles the staging coupled with a two-stage thermostat. I'm guessing you are electric heat down there.

The only thing that should really change the height of the air handler is the evap coil, and that usually is because of efficiency - not staging. The taller the coil the more efficient your system can get. How much height do you have in that space?

Yes. Electric heat down here. 73” I believe

Do you have the model numbers of what they quoted you? You can send it by PM if you want.

 

[ChiefD]

@ChiefD I didn't even think to ask, you didn't happen to be at the AHR show in Atlanta last week did you? So much confusion about the new refrigerant rules, thought we would get some answers and I mostly just have more questions now. Government can **** up just about anything.

No. I normally don't travel to those.

And honestly, I haven't dug into new refrig requirements yet. I know they are coming but don't know the details.

 

[Osaurus]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that some more.

Usually the two-stage function is on the outdoor unit. The air handler's control board normally handles the staging coupled with a two-stage thermostat. I'm guessing you are electric heat down there.

The only thing that should really change the height of the air handler is the evap coil, and that usually is because of efficiency - not staging. The taller the coil the more efficient your system can get. How much height do you have in that space?

Yes. Electric heat down here. 73” I believe

Do you have the model numbers of what they quoted you? You can send it by PM if you want.

PM sent

 

[beer 30]

No. I normally don't travel to those.

And honestly, I haven't dug into new refrig requirements yet. I know they are coming but don't know the details.

Not sure how much it will effect your business but it's looking like R454B is where the industry is gravitating to. Still have at least one more year of R410A (maybe two, can't remember) so still time to get your orders in but the runway for non-flammable refrigerant is starting to run out. Probably not a huge deal for residential but for rental companies this causes a major issue. When you have 600-1000 1T's on the shelf you suddenly become a hazardous facility and transporting large loads of these things are going to require, I would think, placarding at the least. gonna be a ****show.

 

[ChiefD]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that some more.

Usually the two-stage function is on the outdoor unit. The air handler's control board normally handles the staging coupled with a two-stage thermostat. I'm guessing you are electric heat down there.

The only thing that should really change the height of the air handler is the evap coil, and that usually is because of efficiency - not staging. The taller the coil the more efficient your system can get. How much height do you have in that space?

I'll add - unless they are talking about the variable speed motor being larger to accommodate the staging. Checking now.

 

[ChiefD]

No. I normally don't travel to those.

And honestly, I haven't dug into new refrig requirements yet. I know they are coming but don't know the details.

Not sure how much it will effect your business but it's looking like R454B is where the industry is gravitating to. Still have at least one more year of R410A (maybe two, can't remember) so still time to get your orders in but the runway for non-flammable refrigerant is starting to run out. Probably not a huge deal for residential but for rental companies this causes a major issue. When you have 600-1000 1T's on the shelf you suddenly become a hazardous facility and transporting large loads of these things are going to require, I would think, placarding at the least. gonna be a ****show.

Yeah, I know Carrier is starting to push the R454B, but my local distributor doesn't have it in stock yet as far as I can tell. But I know it's coming. Just haven't received any details from my rep yet.

 

[Osaurus]

Rheem 4 ton 15 seer single stage setup came back at $9,175. I guess the little room in my garage for the air handler won’t support a 2 stage setup unless I gut the room and start from scratch (not enough vertical). Pass. Looks like I’m getting similar single stage quotes from the others companies moving forward.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that some more.

Usually the two-stage function is on the outdoor unit. The air handler's control board normally handles the staging coupled with a two-stage thermostat. I'm guessing you are electric heat down there.

The only thing that should really change the height of the air handler is the evap coil, and that usually is because of efficiency - not staging. The taller the coil the more efficient your system can get. How much height do you have in that space?

I'll add - unless they are talking about the variable speed motor being larger to accommodate the staging. Checking now.

Possibly

 

[Osaurus]

Ok. Estimate 2

No Carrier supply in stock so I got a quote for a Trane system. Carrier is 4-6 weeks out at least and slightly pricier

Variable Speed (what?!!!!)
4 ton 16 seer

I guess they can add a grill above the air handler in the closet to seal the plenum if necessary. Either way, guy said he can do variable speed.

$11,365

Not crazy expensive compared to the Rheem single speed quote from yesterday.

 

[Osaurus]

Last quote of the day will be from York. Not getting the actual quote until Monday. It’s certainly a different kind of setup. Curious to see what the price looks like for this system, but I’m not feeling too warm and fuzzy over it.

 

[Jobber]

My furnace and AC are coming up on 23 years now. Minnesota. I think I’d better look around for quotes so I’m prepared when the inevitable happens.

It sounds like Trane/American Standard may be the way to go. I think a heat pump isn’t viable where I’m at, so it’s straight natural gas furnace for me.

 

[the moops]

My furnace and AC are coming up on 23 years now. Minnesota. I think I’d better look around for quotes so I’m prepared when the inevitable happens.

It sounds like Trane/American Standard may be the way to go. I think a heat pump isn’t viable where I’m at, so it’s straight natural gas furnace for me.

Question - why do you think a heat pump isn't viable?

I am also in MN, and have been researching heat pumps and they seem viable these days, even in this stupid cold weather.

We have an old furnace and AC, and I mainly want to go to a ductless mini-split heat pump for a couple reasons. They are way more efficient and cheaper, I want to gain space in my utility room by removing our giant *** furnace, and I want to remove the ugly ductwork in our semi-finished basement.

Still not sure if it is worth it though

 

[ChiefD]

My furnace and AC are coming up on 23 years now. Minnesota. I think I’d better look around for quotes so I’m prepared when the inevitable happens.

It sounds like Trane/American Standard may be the way to go. I think a heat pump isn’t viable where I’m at, so it’s straight natural gas furnace for me.

Question - why do you think a heat pump isn't viable?

I am also in MN, and have been researching heat pumps and they seem viable these days, even in this stupid cold weather.

We have an old furnace and AC, and I mainly want to go to a ductless mini-split heat pump for a couple reasons. They are way more efficient and cheaper, I want to gain space in my utility room by removing our giant *** furnace, and I want to remove the ugly ductwork in our semi-finished basement.

Still not sure if it is worth it though

Is your current furnace natural gas?

 

[the moops]

My furnace and AC are coming up on 23 years now. Minnesota. I think I’d better look around for quotes so I’m prepared when the inevitable happens.

It sounds like Trane/American Standard may be the way to go. I think a heat pump isn’t viable where I’m at, so it’s straight natural gas furnace for me.

Question - why do you think a heat pump isn't viable?

I am also in MN, and have been researching heat pumps and they seem viable these days, even in this stupid cold weather.

We have an old furnace and AC, and I mainly want to go to a ductless mini-split heat pump for a couple reasons. They are way more efficient and cheaper, I want to gain space in my utility room by removing our giant *** furnace, and I want to remove the ugly ductwork in our semi-finished basement.

Still not sure if it is worth it though

Is your current furnace natural gas?

It is

 

[ChiefD]

My furnace and AC are coming up on 23 years now. Minnesota. I think I’d better look around for quotes so I’m prepared when the inevitable happens.

It sounds like Trane/American Standard may be the way to go. I think a heat pump isn’t viable where I’m at, so it’s straight natural gas furnace for me.

Question - why do you think a heat pump isn't viable?

I am also in MN, and have been researching heat pumps and they seem viable these days, even in this stupid cold weather.

We have an old furnace and AC, and I mainly want to go to a ductless mini-split heat pump for a couple reasons. They are way more efficient and cheaper, I want to gain space in my utility room by removing our giant *** furnace, and I want to remove the ugly ductwork in our semi-finished basement.

Still not sure if it is worth it though

Is your current furnace natural gas?

It is

If I'm in Minnesota no way I'm giving up my gas furnace for any kind of heat pump system.

A traditional heat pump is normally paired with a furnace because that heat pump is only really effective until the outside temp reaches 32 degrees or so. As it gets colder it loses capacity to heat so you need backup heat to supplement it.

A mini-split heat pump is better. They can provide heat at much lower temps, but in your climate I wouldn't go full mini-split. I can't tell you how many calls I get when the temps are in the single digits here in KC from people who have mini-split heat pumps in remodels and such where it can't keep up.

 

[Jobber]

My furnace and AC are coming up on 23 years now. Minnesota. I think I’d better look around for quotes so I’m prepared when the inevitable happens.

It sounds like Trane/American Standard may be the way to go. I think a heat pump isn’t viable where I’m at, so it’s straight natural gas furnace for me.

Question - why do you think a heat pump isn't viable?

I am also in MN, and have been researching heat pumps and they seem viable these days, even in this stupid cold weather.

We have an old furnace and AC, and I mainly want to go to a ductless mini-split heat pump for a couple reasons. They are way more efficient and cheaper, I want to gain space in my utility room by removing our giant *** furnace, and I want to remove the ugly ductwork in our semi-finished basement.

Still not sure if it is worth it though

Is your current furnace natural gas?

It is

If I'm in Minnesota no way I'm giving up my gas furnace for any kind of heat pump system.

A traditional heat pump is normally paired with a furnace because that heat pump is only really effective until the outside temp reaches 32 degrees or so. As it gets colder it loses capacity to heat so you need backup heat to supplement it.

A mini-split heat pump is better. They can provide heat at much lower temps, but in your climate I wouldn't go full mini-split. I can't tell you how many calls I get when the temps are in the single digits here in KC from people who have mini-split heat pumps in remodels and such where it can't keep up.

Thanks for your input! I’m lightly investigating Trane furnaces around here just so I’m prepared to make the call when this thing (23 yr old) dies.

 

[the moops]

A mini-split heat pump is better. They can provide heat at much lower temps, but in your climate I wouldn't go full mini-split. I can't tell you how many calls I get when the temps are in the single digits here in KC from people who have mini-split heat pumps in remodels and such where it can't keep up.

When they call and say it can't keep up, what exactly does that mean? Like it only gets up to 65, and not to 75? We keep our place at 68 in the winter, so wondering...

 

[ChiefD]

A mini-split heat pump is better. They can provide heat at much lower temps, but in your climate I wouldn't go full mini-split. I can't tell you how many calls I get when the temps are in the single digits here in KC from people who have mini-split heat pumps in remodels and such where it can't keep up.

When they call and say it can't keep up, what exactly does that mean? Like it only gets up to 65, and not to 75? We keep our place at 68 in the winter, so wondering...

Yeah. You are on the right track.

I get a lot of "it will only get to 62 in that room and I have it set on 72".

But remember, at 62 degrees that thing is running ALL THE TIME. Because it's still trying to hit a set temp. Unless you just leave it at 62 or something. But for a whole house in Minnesota I wouldn't do it.

Not in my house. You also have to consider who else is in the house because we all process temps differently. And also age of residents. As we age its harder to stay warm. So if you are staying in the house long term it could be a detriment.

 

[BlackCrowes]

great thread ChiefD. i'm 18 years in to the home's original AC unit and i'm thinking it's time. the breaker tripped a few times last summer and that's apparently a sure sign? i'm in Texas so i think heat pump might be an option, although the last two years we've had a pretty good freeze. What's the cost adder on heat pump vs traditional AC for a 4-ton system? i think there's a tax credit now on the heat pumps so that's another plus. Stupid question: how does a heat pump work in the winter? Is it running the air over an electrically powered heating coil? thx

 

[ChiefD]

great thread ChiefD. i'm 18 years in to the home's original AC unit and i'm thinking it's time. the breaker tripped a few times last summer and that's apparently a sure sign? i'm in Texas so i think heat pump might be an option, although the last two years we've had a pretty good freeze. What's the cost adder on heat pump vs traditional AC for a 4-ton system? i think there's a tax credit now on the heat pumps so that's another plus. Stupid question: how does a heat pump work in the winter? Is it running the air over an electrically powered heating coil? thx

So, do you have a regular furnace (natural gas or propane) now as your primary heat source?

 

[BlackCrowes]

great thread ChiefD. i'm 18 years in to the home's original AC unit and i'm thinking it's time. the breaker tripped a few times last summer and that's apparently a sure sign? i'm in Texas so i think heat pump might be an option, although the last two years we've had a pretty good freeze. What's the cost adder on heat pump vs traditional AC for a 4-ton system? i think there's a tax credit now on the heat pumps so that's another plus. Stupid question: how does a heat pump work in the winter? Is it running the air over an electrically powered heating coil? thx

So, do you have a regular furnace (natural gas or propane) now as your primary heat source?

natural gas. have to admit that i'm a bit of a tree-hugger so it's not all just about cost. the idea of getting off of NG has some appeal.

 

[ChiefD]

What city in Texas?

 

[BlackCrowes]

What city in Texas?

20 miles NW of Austin

 

[ChiefD]

Ok. So here are some thoughts and answers to your questions.

1. A heat pump looks exactly like your air conditioner. In the summer it provides cooling and in the winter it provides heat. It has a reversing valve that changes the direction of the refrigerant depending on the season. So in the summer the refrigerant comes into your house cold and goes across your evaporator coil, and the furnace blower pulls the warm air in your house across that cold coil, which removes the humidity and provides cool air.

In the winter that refrigerant comes in hot, so your furnace blower blows across that warm evaporator coil and provides heat for your home.

BUT - a heat pump is only really effective until the outdoor temp hits about 31 degrees or so. At that point, you need a backup heat source to supplement and satisfy your thermostat. In your case right now, that would be your gas furnace.

If you decide to get rid of your gas furnace, you will still need a backup heat source. Which means you are going all electric and replacing your furnace with an air handler with electric heat strips. Those heat strips are kind of like the coils in your toaster. And if you are using those in extreme cold it gets really expensive to run that air handler. Plus you have to make sure your electrical breaker box can handle the extra power for the air handler.

2. A heat pump will not last as long as an air conditioner typically. Their life span is about 10-12 years vs 18-20 for an air conditioner, so you will replace it quicker. That’s because it is being utilized 12 months out of the year vs an air conditioner only being used in cooling season.

3. A heat pump produces a cool heat. It is not hot like a furnace heat. If you have women in your house who like to feel warm all the time, do not get a heat pump. They just feel different, especially if you are used to gas heat.

4. For me, I would never go all electric because I don’t want to be tied to one utility. They ebb and flow depending on supply and such. And with Texas’ electrical grid strained as it is, I would definitely keep my natural gas furnace so I have options.