Patriots stealing signals? (1 Viewer)

[Misterdonut]

Or maybe just clever gamesmanship by the Pats.Suppose they analyze the videotape and find the guy wasn't stealing signs at all...That would be hysterical.

It's still illegal/against the rules/cheating to have the video equipment on the field or in the coaches box.

 

[jonessed]

Love the damage control/excuses by Pat fans in this thread. Seriously, they probably would have won anyway. But are some of you really such blind homers that you can't acknowledge that:

A) They may have gained an unfair advantage by doing something that the NFL has previously warned teams NOT to do, as it is cheating in their eyes, and

B) Your beloved organization isn't the bunch of choirboys they make themselves out to be?

There has been a lot of evidence that this may be true, including previous incidents. If I was a Pats fan, I would be disappointed in my team if they felt that they had to do this to win. No matter how people try to defend this behavior, it boils down to this. Any team that would do this is obviously uncomfortable with their chances of winning using strictly conventional methods.

I love these kind of posts. Why shouldn't someone defend their team? That's why they are called fans. I suppose you are totally unbiased with regard to your team. Blind homerism is better than blind hate. So get off your pedastal, and get real. Every NFL team tries to get EVERY advantage they can.I recall more than a few instances where these type of things have happened before with other teams (including the Jets). How about speculation before the game that the Jets brought Caldwell or some other NE players in, so they could learn the Defensive plays of the Pats?

Guys who are making this out to be some kind of major crime are the one who need to take the glasses off. The media is guilty of making the Pats out to be choir boys, not NE fans or players. Real NE fans know that BB and the organization are warriors and not choir boys. Its a violent sport with ALOT at stake....NE fans and players realize that. Give NE a slap on the wrist and move on....

Please stop. You sound like a fool.This is a typical response of a child who gets caught doing something wrong.

Step 1- Denial.

Step 2- Try to shift blame. "It's someone else's fault." Or "Well everyone else is doing it too."

Step 3- Bring up someone else's alleged misdeeds to divert attention.

Incidentally, if the Jets did try to bring Caldwell in to "debrief" him, I wouldn't agree with that either if it was against the rules. By the way, has the league's front office made a point of sending out warnings to teams that the practice of bringing in players that have been cut from other teams is against the rules? Have they warned that this type of action is punishable? Are you trying to compare apples to oranges in an attempt to shift the attention away from where it currently is?

I've never once said in this thread that I think the Patriots are guilty. I can wait until the league investigation makes that claim. What I'm marveling at is the fact that at this phase of the game, Pats fans are squirming like greased eels, trying to justify this type of behavior or defend it. I actually hope the league finds out that the Pats didn't do this. Why? Because then it will be fun to watch the same people who defended this type of behavior in this thread come out and pound their chests about how they didn't need it in the first place.

Yet another great and intellegent post. You resort to stereotyping and name calling, and I'm the child. Where did I shift blame or deny anything? You attack NE fans for defending their team. Then you go on to state that NE fans think their players are choir boys. I was merely rebutting those facts. I brought up the Caldwell incident, not to be a deflection or denial, but a mere case in point that many things go on in the NFL that would be considered boderline or unethical. Do a little research and you will find a ton of simliar incidents have gone on many times before with ALL teams. In fact, behavior like this used to be common place and an everyday occurence. To think that ALL teams are not guilty of simliar tactics is truly foolish.Did I ever say it was OK? NO. In fact, I stated that we should penalize them and move on. To paint an entire fan base with broad sterotypical statements and to try and diminish the great accomplishments of an historic franchise is the true crime....and it happens every day on these boards, by haters just like you.

More gems

 

[Kit Fisto]

Or maybe just clever gamesmanship by the Pats.

Suppose they analyze the videotape and find the guy wasn't stealing signs at all...

That would be hysterical.

It's still illegal/against the rules/cheating to have the video equipment on the field or in the coaches box.

Last year, I saw a game where an injured player had a camera and was taking pictures of the game. I guess he thought of himself as an amatuer photographer. An NFL official came to him, explained that he couldn't have a camera on the sidelines, so he put it away. What if this is more of the same?We know it's illegal, no matter what he was doing, either stealing signs for future reference or simply getting game footage. But it won't cost a 1st rounder, a forfeit or tarnish the Patriots legacy like some drama queens in here want it to.

 

[Shrek]

Love the damage control/excuses by Pat fans in this thread. Seriously, they probably would have won anyway. But are some of you really such blind homers that you can't acknowledge that:

A) They may have gained an unfair advantage by doing something that the NFL has previously warned teams NOT to do, as it is cheating in their eyes, and

B) Your beloved organization isn't the bunch of choirboys they make themselves out to be?

There has been a lot of evidence that this may be true, including previous incidents. If I was a Pats fan, I would be disappointed in my team if they felt that they had to do this to win. No matter how people try to defend this behavior, it boils down to this. Any team that would do this is obviously uncomfortable with their chances of winning using strictly conventional methods.

I love these kind of posts. Why shouldn't someone defend their team? That's why they are called fans. I suppose you are totally unbiased with regard to your team. Blind homerism is better than blind hate. So get off your pedastal, and get real. Every NFL team tries to get EVERY advantage they can.I recall more than a few instances where these type of things have happened before with other teams (including the Jets). How about speculation before the game that the Jets brought Caldwell or some other NE players in, so they could learn the Defensive plays of the Pats?

Guys who are making this out to be some kind of major crime are the one who need to take the glasses off. The media is guilty of making the Pats out to be choir boys, not NE fans or players. Real NE fans know that BB and the organization are warriors and not choir boys. Its a violent sport with ALOT at stake....NE fans and players realize that. Give NE a slap on the wrist and move on....

Please stop. You sound like a fool.This is a typical response of a child who gets caught doing something wrong.

Step 1- Denial.

Step 2- Try to shift blame. "It's someone else's fault." Or "Well everyone else is doing it too."

Step 3- Bring up someone else's alleged misdeeds to divert attention.

Incidentally, if the Jets did try to bring Caldwell in to "debrief" him, I wouldn't agree with that either if it was against the rules. By the way, has the league's front office made a point of sending out warnings to teams that the practice of bringing in players that have been cut from other teams is against the rules? Have they warned that this type of action is punishable? Are you trying to compare apples to oranges in an attempt to shift the attention away from where it currently is?

I've never once said in this thread that I think the Patriots are guilty. I can wait until the league investigation makes that claim. What I'm marveling at is the fact that at this phase of the game, Pats fans are squirming like greased eels, trying to justify this type of behavior or defend it. I actually hope the league finds out that the Pats didn't do this. Why? Because then it will be fun to watch the same people who defended this type of behavior in this thread come out and pound their chests about how they didn't need it in the first place.

Yet another great and intellegent post. You resort to stereotyping and name calling, and I'm the child. Where did I shift blame or deny anything? You attack NE fans for defending their team. Then you go on to state that NE fans think their players are choir boys. I was merely rebutting those facts. I brought up the Caldwell incident, not to be a deflection or denial, but a mere case in point that many things go on in the NFL that would be considered boderline or unethical. Do a little research and you will find a ton of simliar incidents have gone on many times before with ALL teams. In fact, behavior like this used to be common place and an everyday occurence. To think that ALL teams are not guilty of simliar tactics is truly foolish.Did I ever say it was OK? NO. In fact, I stated that we should penalize them and move on. To paint an entire fan base with broad sterotypical statements and to try and diminish the great accomplishments of an historic franchise is the true crime....and it happens every day on these boards, by haters just like you.

More gems

I would save some of these to make a sig, but the hardest part would be deciding which ones would make the cut. I love them all.

 

[AB in DC]

Or maybe just clever gamesmanship by the Pats.

Suppose they analyze the videotape and find the guy wasn't stealing signs at all...

That would be hysterical.

It's still illegal/against the rules/cheating to have the video equipment on the field or in the coaches box.

Against the rules, yes. Cheating, if there's no evidence of stealing signs, no.That's why I predict that the there will be nothing more than a fine.

("predict" is in bold because some people seem not to have noticed this in my previous post.)

 

[AB in DC]

Or is this like the Michael Vick fiasco, where the league is simply out to make an example of them, whether they are guilty or not?

I sure hope this is sarcasm. If a guilty plea and a possible one-year prison term is just the league simply out to make an example of him, then we're clearly in the realm of .

5) The best was saved for last. Now you, and you alone, get to determine at what threshhold the Pats warrant "larger penalties"?

The threshold is actual evidence and common sense. Anyone who thinks this is debatable has completely lost touch with reality.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

 

[AB in DC]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

Haven't you been paying attention? He's not jumping to conclusions, it's just "hypothetical".

 

[AB in DC]

Info on the video dude:

According to an internal ESPN memo, the Patriots employee shooting Sunday’s game against the New York Jets was 26-year-old Matt Estrella, a video assistant in his fourth year with the team. The New Bedford native began his Patriots career as a video intern in 2004 and assumed his current full-time role in 2005. He’s a Fitchburg State grad who majored in communications and media with a concentration in video production.

Thanks for posting some actual information here.

 

[Banger]

So basically, everyone on this thread has already decided that the Pats are guilty without seeing a single shred of evidence? Nice.

Worth repeating.Here are the only FACTS that we know:1) Someone on the field had a videocamera confiscated.2) That person was believed to have field credentials from the Patriots.That's it. Everything else on this thread is speculation and charatcter assassination.Hell, for all we know, it was someone affiliated with NFL Films who the Patriots' PR department hired to shoot some movies. That's about as likely as it being someone on the actual coaching staff. But everyone automatically assumes the worst, because hey, it's the Patriots, so it has to be something ditry and underhanded.My prediction is that the Patriots will get fined $50,000 for violating an NFL rule, and that's it. For there to be any larger penalty, there needs to be some seriously damning evidence on that videotape, as well as evidence that the Patriots football staff knew and approved of what was going on.

and Vick owned the house but had no idea what was going on....

 

[JMJ]

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/14088132/detail.html

NFL Demands Answers From Belichick On Spying Charge

NFL Investigating Accusations Coach Signals Were Taped

3:25 pm EDT September 11, 2007

BOSTON -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick has been summoned to New York by the NFL Commissioner, SportsCenter 5 reported Tuesday.

SportsCenter 5 reporter Mike Dowling said Belichick has been called for a meeting Friday with Commissioner Roger Goodell to answer allegations that a Patriots employee was videotaping New York Jets' coaches signals during the season opener on Sunday.

That's against National Football League rules.

The NFL is investigating the charges after NFL security confiscated a video camera and tape from the Patriots employee during New England's 38-14 victory Sunday.

"The rule is that no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game," the league said in a statement from spokesman Greg Aiello. "Clubs have specifically been reminded in the past that the videotaping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals on the sidelines is prohibited.

The photographer was accused of illegally videotaping Jets' defensive coordinator Bob Sutton's hand signals, apparently to relay onto the field.

Jets head coach Eric Mangini, a former Patriots defensive coordinator, claimed he saw the spying, but he was remaining mum about the investigation.

"Those are all league-related matters and anything that deals with an issue like this or anything on a team-by-team basis, they all go to the league," Mangine said.

Patriots cornerback Ellis Hobbs is saying he's offended by the accusation.

"We take pride in what we do. We know the rules of the game. By no facet or shape or form have we ever tried to cheat or anything like that because we don't need to," Hobbs said in a statement.

Patriots spokesman Stacey James declined comment.

The Green Bay Packers claimed that a similar incident happened with the same employee during a Nov. 19 game last year. The camera man was escorted off the field.

If the NFL finds the Patriots are guilty of spying on another team, the team could be fined or have to forfeit a draft pick.

 

[g5jamz]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

I guess the link just above this post is the NFL simply inviting the Pats to come in and ask advice on camera angles and style for their upcoming Thursday games later in the year. Maybe you're right...it's nothing.

 

[j3r3m3y]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

It's really not.

Using a video camera to assist in stealing signals is.

 

[j3r3m3y]

Or maybe just clever gamesmanship by the Pats.

Suppose they analyze the videotape and find the guy wasn't stealing signs at all...

That would be hysterical.

It's still illegal/against the rules/cheating to have the video equipment on the field or in the coaches box.

Against the rules, yes. Cheating, if there's no evidence of stealing signs, no.That's why I predict that the there will be nothing more than a fine.

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

 

[g5jamz]

Or maybe just clever gamesmanship by the Pats.

Suppose they analyze the videotape and find the guy wasn't stealing signs at all...

That would be hysterical.

It's still illegal/against the rules/cheating to have the video equipment on the field or in the coaches box.

Against the rules, yes. Cheating, if there's no evidence of stealing signs, no.That's why I predict that the there will be nothing more than a fine.

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

What would be hilarious would be if the NFL rules the Pats forfeit that game...yeah...I know...never happen, but it would definately set an example.

 

[AB in DC]

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

No, it isn't. Intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage is cheating. But if he wasn't filming the Jets' signals -- say, if he was just filming something for a video montage -- then breaking the rules is not cheating.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

No, it isn't. Intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage is cheating. But if he wasn't filming the Jets' signals -- say, if he was just filming something for a video montage -- then breaking the rules is not cheating.

OK, Bill Clinton.

 

[AB in DC]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

I guess the link just above this post is the NFL simply inviting the Pats to come in and ask advice on camera angles and style for their upcoming Thursday games later in the year. Maybe you're right...it's nothing.

The trolls are really out in force here. The NFL invited Arthur Blank to meet with them to discuss the Vick case. Does that mean that Arthur Blank was a cheater? Or a dog killer?

 

[j3r3m3y]

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

No, it isn't. Intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage is cheating. But if he wasn't filming the Jets' signals -- say, if he was just filming something for a video montage -- then breaking the rules is not cheating.

www.dictionary.comcheat /tʃit/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[cheet] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–verb (used with object)

1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.

–verb (used without object)

4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.

5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

7. Informal. to be sexually unfaithful (often fol. by on): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.

Check out #5. You are trying to hard to defend them.

I am not saying they in fact cheated, because I don't have proof that this story is true.

But if they intentionally broke the rules, they cheated. There really is no wiggle room.

 

[g5jamz]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

I guess the link just above this post is the NFL simply inviting the Pats to come in and ask advice on camera angles and style for their upcoming Thursday games later in the year. Maybe you're right...it's nothing.

The trolls are really out in force here. The NFL invited Arthur Blank to meet with them to discuss the Vick case. Does that mean that Arthur Blank was a cheater? Or a dog killer?

WTF does that have to do with anything? Blank and the Falcon organization were never part of any dogfighting or gambling operations.

 

[AB in DC]

WTF does that have to do with anything? Blank and the Falcon organization were never part of any dogfighting or gambling operations.

For all we know, Belichick isn't part of any cheating operations.But they'll still want to interview him to find out what he knows -- just like they interviewed Blank to find out what he knew about Vick.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

WTF does that have to do with anything? Blank and the Falcon organization were never part of any dogfighting or gambling operations.

For all we know, Belichick isn't part of any cheating operations.But they'll still want to interview him to find out what he knows -- just like they interviewed Blank to find out what he knew about Vick.

Good call. Because it may have been the waterboy who put the A/V intern up to the videotaping scheme.

 

[Marc Levin]

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

No, it isn't. Intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage is cheating. But if he wasn't filming the Jets' signals -- say, if he was just filming something for a video montage -- then breaking the rules is not cheating.

Maybe intentionally breaking rules to gain an advantage is cheating in your book, but intentionally breaking N.F.L. rules is definitely sanctionable by the N.F.L.. The guy could have been taking video tape of hisd kid picking a booger out of his friend's nose, but he is a Pats employee, on the sideline, and is not allowed to have a video camera.As to the second part above,

This exact same photographer was escorted from a stadium last year - I think G.B.? - on suspicion of the same thing (no link - N.Y. Times article and Providence Jouirnal article I read this a.m. stated that. I am sure a New Yorkie can confirm the article).

If they broke a rule w/o a good explanation, expect to lose a draft pick, but expect that draft pick to be a pretty low one. If the NFL thinks they were trying to steal signals, expect it to be a mid-range one - a 4th or 5th.

Jim Rome was funny today while blasting "Hoodie" for this.

 

[j3r3m3y]

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

No, it isn't. Intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage is cheating. But if he wasn't filming the Jets' signals -- say, if he was just filming something for a video montage -- then breaking the rules is not cheating.

Maybe intentionally breaking rules to gain an advantage is cheating in your book, but intentionally breaking N.F.L. rules is definitely sanctionable by the N.F.L.. The guy could have been taking video tape of hisd kid picking a booger out of his friend's nose, but he is a Pats employee, on the sideline, and is not allowed to have a video camera.As to the second part above,

This exact same photographer was escorted from a stadium last year - I think G.B.? - on suspicion of the same thing (no link - N.Y. Times article and Providence Jouirnal article I read this a.m. stated that. I am sure a New Yorkie can confirm the article).

If they broke a rule w/o a good explanation, expect to lose a draft pick, but expect that draft pick to be a pretty low one. If the NFL thinks they were trying to steal signals, expect it to be a mid-range one - a 4th or 5th.

Jim Rome was funny today while blasting "Hoodie" for this.

Why do I do often find myself arguing the same point as you Mark?

 

[Pittsburgh United]

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07254/816573-66.stm

Tomlin not surprised by New England rumors

Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

New Steelers coach Mike Tomlin did not accuse New England of cheating, but said the rumors have been around and "where there is smoke, there's fire.''

Tomlin, at his press conference today, responded to the allegations that the Patriots have used cameras illegally to focus on opposing coaches along the sideline in order to steal their signals.

"In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instances to my knowledge," Tomlin said. "But usually, where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

 

[Marc Levin]

Intentionally breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

No, it isn't. Intentionally breaking the rules to gain advantage is cheating. But if he wasn't filming the Jets' signals -- say, if he was just filming something for a video montage -- then breaking the rules is not cheating.

Maybe intentionally breaking rules to gain an advantage is cheating in your book, but intentionally breaking N.F.L. rules is definitely sanctionable by the N.F.L.. The guy could have been taking video tape of hisd kid picking a booger out of his friend's nose, but he is a Pats employee, on the sideline, and is not allowed to have a video camera.As to the second part above,

This exact same photographer was escorted from a stadium last year - I think G.B.? - on suspicion of the same thing (no link - N.Y. Times article and Providence Jouirnal article I read this a.m. stated that. I am sure a New Yorkie can confirm the article).

If they broke a rule w/o a good explanation, expect to lose a draft pick, but expect that draft pick to be a pretty low one. If the NFL thinks they were trying to steal signals, expect it to be a mid-range one - a 4th or 5th.

Jim Rome was funny today while blasting "Hoodie" for this.

Why do I do often find myself arguing the same point as you Mark?

1) Who's Mark?2) I deflated the argument by accepting his argument (that intentionally breaking the rules is not cheating), yet still showed that the label doesn't matter. You showed the label is appropriate. That is a 1-2 punch that should lay the "intentionally breaking rules isn't cheating" argument to rest.

 

[j3r3m3y]

1) Who's Mark?

As someone who also has an uncommonly spelled common first name, I apologize Marc.This one's on me:

 

[Marc Levin]

1) Who's Mark?

As someone who also has an uncommonly spelled common first name, I apologize Marc.This one's on me:

Jeremy . . errr j3r3m3y

 

[shakeybarn]

I'd like everyone on this thread, to lay down on their blankets for 30 minutes. ...and when you awake I will have milk and cookies, and we'll make glitter art when you're done.

(thread overly digressed to name calling, argument on the schemantics of the argument, etc...)

 

[Marc Levin]

I'd like everyone on this thread, to lay down on their blankets for 30 minutes. ...and when you awake I will have milk and cookies bottles of Stella Artois, and we'll make glitter art on some naked strippers when you're done.

(thread overly digressed to name calling, argument on the schemantics of the argument, etc...)

OK - NOW this invitation belongs on a FF message board.

 

[shakeybarn]

I'd like everyone on this thread, to lay down on their blankets for 30 minutes. ...and when you awake I will have milk and cookies bottles of Stella Artois, and we'll make glitter art on some naked strippers when you're done.

(thread overly digressed to name calling, argument on the schemantics of the argument, etc...)

OK - NOW this invitation belongs on a FF message board.

Touche... well ... very well done. Make mine Sierra Nevada.... Stella... get this gives me heartburn. No kidding, two brews do... Stella and Amstel Light. I like Stella but me gullet doesn't.

 

[shakeybarn]

I'd like everyone on this thread, to lay down on their blankets for 30 minutes. ...and when you awake I will have milk and cookies bottles of Stella Artois, and we'll make glitter art on some naked strippers when you're done.

(thread overly digressed to name calling, argument on the schemantics of the argument, etc...)

OK - NOW this invitation belongs on a FF message board.

Touche... well ... very well done. Make mine Sierra Nevada.... Stella... get this gives me heartburn. No kidding, two brews do... Stella and Amstel Light. I like Stella but me gullet doesn't.

Oh, and if said entertainment is named Stella... that's fine, she won't be cause for heartburn.

 

[Marc Levin]

Stella... get this gives me heartburn. No kidding, two brews do... Stella and Amstel Light. I like Stella but me gullet doesn't.

You trying to intentionally piss off Chase?

 

[Marc Levin]

I'd like everyone on this thread, to lay down on their blankets for 30 minutes. ...and when you awake I will have milk and cookies bottles of Stella Artois, and we'll make glitter art on some naked strippers when you're done.

(thread overly digressed to name calling, argument on the schemantics of the argument, etc...)

OK - NOW this invitation belongs on a FF message board.

Touche... well ... very well done. Make mine Sierra Nevada.... Stella... get this gives me heartburn. No kidding, two brews do... Stella and Amstel Light. I like Stella but me gullet doesn't.

Oh, and if said entertainment is named Stella... that's fine, she won't be cause for heartburn.

Just rugburn.OK - we are now on the right track to getting this closed or moved to the FFA.

 

[Shrek]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

I guess the link just above this post is the NFL simply inviting the Pats to come in and ask advice on camera angles and style for their upcoming Thursday games later in the year. Maybe you're right...it's nothing.

At this point, they haven't been caught doing anything. It may end up being that they did cheat, but it's premature to say that now.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Picking up a waived player from an opposing team is NOT deemed against the rules...Reche Caldwell or not. Oh...but we forget that the Pats brought in Tim Dwight didn't we.

Pats got caught cheating and should get penalized...period.

They have what...two number 1s in 2008? One will do.

Link to where the Pats got caught cheating?

I guess the link just above this post is the NFL simply inviting the Pats to come in and ask advice on camera angles and style for their upcoming Thursday games later in the year. Maybe you're right...it's nothing.

Sorry, you must have misread my post. I asked for a link where the Pats got caught cheating. Not the link where Belichick is being questioned about the allegation. Didn't mean to confuse you.

 

[HellToupee]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patrio...mp;postcount=29

Here is a video still from the game of the alleged camera man at the Jets game

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/patriots/?p=1576

According to an internal ESPN memo, the Patriots employee shooting Sunday’s game against the New York Jets was 26-year-old Matt Estrella, a video assistant in his fourth year with the team. The New Bedford native began his Patriots career as a video intern in 2004 and assumed his current full-time role in 2005. He’s a Fitchburg State grad who majored in communications and media with a concentration in video production.

 

[yabahos]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patrio...mp;postcount=29

Here is a video still from the game of the alleged camera man at the Jets game

This is actually a better link for those that can't identify Dan Koppen. Also note that in the article (last line in second paragraph) Wilbur states -According to multiple reports, however, the cameraman in question was on the Patriots' sideline, which would indeed deem the follow photograph a moot point.

Anyway its still an interesting read. As is this blog regarding the Pittsburgh new conference - here

 

[code]

This is actually a better link for those that can't identify Dan Koppen. Also note that in the article (last line in second paragraph) Wilbur states -

According to multiple reports, however, the cameraman in question was on the Patriots' sideline, which would indeed deem the follow photograph a moot point.

Anyway its still an interesting read. As is this blog regarding the Pittsburgh new conference - here

Wow, that guy really looks like he's trying to be inconspicuous...

 

[Pittsburgh United]

This is actually a better link for those that can't identify Dan Koppen. Also note that in the article (last line in second paragraph) Wilbur states -

According to multiple reports, however, the cameraman in question was on the Patriots' sideline, which would indeed deem the follow photograph a moot point.

Anyway its still an interesting read. As is this blog regarding the Pittsburgh new conference - here

Wow, that guy really looks like he's trying to be inconspicuous...

OK this is great. I assumed the guy in question was on the Pats sideline with a high-powered lens. This dude here is basically standing about 12 feet away from the playcaller, holding a betamax camera and a microphone on one of those boom thingies. Nothing like a bit of determined subtlety.

 

[IAmTheBruteSquad]

Man alive!!! No wonder Romeo and C. Weis can't get any wins!!! They didn't take the most important piece of the puzzle with them....the signal-stealing, undermining, low-down-dirty-dog of a cameraman!!!! As if the NFL needed any more controversy this year... And the Patriots of all teams!! I love the NFL!!!

 

[TheLimeChicken]

Hey, if they broke the rule, then they deserve the penalty.

But can someone explain to me the honest practical difference between videotaping from the sidelines and the COMMON practice of placing a coach/scout in the press box with a set of binoculars who tries to steal opposing coaching signals? Because teams do that all the time. One is "cheating" and one isn't but isn't it really kind of an arbitrary distinction between the two? Both methods employ technology to steal opposing signal calls. Period.

The difference is having the record. If you're allowed to tape, you have a library of the signs for every call. If you're not, then you have to rely on your own memory and what you can pick up in-game. This puts the would-be sign stealers in a much fairer position with respect to the players.As a general rule, there's nothing wrong with stealing signs. It's a time-honored tradition in American sports. But when you let teams compile electronic records, then you put teams in the position of having to develop a system flexible and simple enough to be changed every week without confusing the players, while at the same time complex enough that it can't be cracked during the game. Not an easy task, I imagine.

The current rule doesn't protect the careless, but it does prevent football from having to hire Intelligence Coordinators.

Sorry if I'm repeating anything as I haven't read the rest of the thread beyond this point, but...Teams DO change up signals on a weekly basis, there's no team in the NFL that's using the same play calling signals from week to week. Heck, there aren't any D3 college teams out there simplified enough to keep signal calling consistent on a weekly basis.

Another thing, I haven't read all the articles or heard all the reports, but from what I gather we have one guy with one camera here. Is this one guy with his one camera able to focus in clearly on every coach sending in signals from the Jets sideline? If three guys are sending in signals (and I promise you there are no fewer than that, maybe even more) obviously two of those are dummy signals. How do the Pats even know they've got the right set?

I'm slowly being won over to the idea that a some sort of sanctions are probably in order here, but that's based solely on the fact that rules were broken, I'm still struggling to see where the Pats would have gained any type of clear and obvious advantage.

Signals change, so I'm not seeing the potential for a great deal of advance use here (plus with the Packers game also being known...What they were going to memorize signals for a game that's happening in another 7-8 years?).

Can anyone convince me that there's a probability that having this kind of set up would really, truthfully, let a team know exactly what they're about to face? Because even from the levels that I've been involved with the game (and it ain't all that high a level) it just wouldn't work. Reading a signal, interpreting the signal, relaying that information to the field, making adjustments on the field, movement of personnel to fit those adjustments...Really, I can't see it working within the confines of the play clock.

This is a complex game, stealing and interpreting signals might be easy at the Pop Warner level, but as complicated as this stuff is, with multiple dummy signs, and constantly changing signals it's going to be tough, short of having a Navajo code breaker on the payroll, to come up with anything useful during the course of a single game.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being naive here, but if they broke a rule (which it seems they obviously did) then certainly sanctions are in order, but I'm hard pressed to come up with a scenario where they, or any other team, is going to get such a huge advantage from "sign stealing".

...and since we do live in an innocent until proven guilty society (at least I do) I'll wait for this to flesh out. Apparently there were somewhat credible rumors earlier in the day that this was a tape belonging to a local weekly Patriots television show that uses such footage, sanctioned by the NFL. Team credentials explained by the fact that the show is owned and produced by the Patriots themselves (I'd assume most NFL cities have similar shows). Now this was later proven to be incorrect, but it shows that even if I can't think of it there probably are some plausible reasons for what happened that may absolve the Patriots. I doubt it, but I'll reserve judgment until everything shakes out.

 

[crnerblitz]

First of all, I have seen nothing credible to say this is true. Who is this mystery cameraman? A Pats official? Says who.

Its a 2nd offense because some yahoo in GB says it is? I'll wait to see the report from the NFL security department.

I agree that the main use would be for a later game. They play the Jets twice but what would be their motivation to tape the GB signals? They think they were going to meet GB in the Super Bowl.

Right now, this is just an accusation/rumor. If proven true it is a cheap move and the Pats will take their punishment and give up the 5th round pick. at those saying the Pats should get fined a 1st round pick.

Yeah, cause thats what that ole softy Sheriff Goodell is known for. If its proven good luck with that.

I'll bet you $50, no matter the outcome, the Pats would not lose a draft pick above a 3rd rounder.

Now its above a 3rd rounder? So you went from saying they might only lose a 5th rounder to now saying it's sure to not be a 1st or 2nd rounder. You are soooo crawfishing here!!!!! And not even by one round, or two rounds, but three rounds!Still I'll take the bet. I assume that anything equalling a second rounder on the pick chart is also acceptable. For example a 3rd, and 4th or so on and so fourth. Regardless I'm in.

 

[HellToupee]

whole bucnh of posts disappeared

 

[AB in DC]

But if they intentionally broke the rules, they cheated. There really is no wiggle room.

When Chad Johnson wore "Ocho Cinco" on his uniform, or proposed to a cheerleader, or used the ball as a pillow after scoring a touchdown -- all of which were intentional violationx of NFL rules -- would you say that he was cheating?

 

[cobalt_27]

But if they intentionally broke the rules, they cheated. There really is no wiggle room.

When Chad Johnson wore "Ocho Cinco" on his uniform, or proposed to a cheerleader, or used the ball as a pillow after scoring a touchdown -- all of which were intentional violationx of NFL rules -- would you say that he was cheating?

You are kidding, aren't you? Or, are you just drunk?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

But if they intentionally broke the rules, they cheated. There really is no wiggle room.

When Chad Johnson wore "Ocho Cinco" on his uniform, or proposed to a cheerleader, or used the ball as a pillow after scoring a touchdown -- all of which were intentional violationx of NFL rules -- would you say that he was cheating?

 

[g5jamz]

But if they intentionally broke the rules, they cheated. There really is no wiggle room.

When Chad Johnson wore "Ocho Cinco" on his uniform, or proposed to a cheerleader, or used the ball as a pillow after scoring a touchdown -- all of which were intentional violationx of NFL rules -- would you say that he was cheating?

You are kidding, aren't you? Or, are you just drunk?

You forgot a 3rd option.

 

[Shrek]

Love the damage control/excuses by Pat fans in this thread. Seriously, they probably would have won anyway. But are some of you really such blind homers that you can't acknowledge that:

A) They may have gained an unfair advantage by doing something that the NFL has previously warned teams NOT to do, as it is cheating in their eyes, and

B) Your beloved organization isn't the bunch of choirboys they make themselves out to be?

There has been a lot of evidence that this may be true, including previous incidents. If I was a Pats fan, I would be disappointed in my team if they felt that they had to do this to win. No matter how people try to defend this behavior, it boils down to this. Any team that would do this is obviously uncomfortable with their chances of winning using strictly conventional methods.

I love these kind of posts. Why shouldn't someone defend their team? That's why they are called fans. I suppose you are totally unbiased with regard to your team. Blind homerism is better than blind hate. So get off your pedastal, and get real. Every NFL team tries to get EVERY advantage they can.I recall more than a few instances where these type of things have happened before with other teams (including the Jets). How about speculation before the game that the Jets brought Caldwell or some other NE players in, so they could learn the Defensive plays of the Pats?

Guys who are making this out to be some kind of major crime are the one who need to take the glasses off. The media is guilty of making the Pats out to be choir boys, not NE fans or players. Real NE fans know that BB and the organization are warriors and not choir boys. Its a violent sport with ALOT at stake....NE fans and players realize that. Give NE a slap on the wrist and move on....

Please stop. You sound like a fool.This is a typical response of a child who gets caught doing something wrong.

Step 1- Denial.

Step 2- Try to shift blame. "It's someone else's fault." Or "Well everyone else is doing it too."

Step 3- Bring up someone else's alleged misdeeds to divert attention.

Incidentally, if the Jets did try to bring Caldwell in to "debrief" him, I wouldn't agree with that either if it was against the rules. By the way, has the league's front office made a point of sending out warnings to teams that the practice of bringing in players that have been cut from other teams is against the rules? Have they warned that this type of action is punishable? Are you trying to compare apples to oranges in an attempt to shift the attention away from where it currently is?

I've never once said in this thread that I think the Patriots are guilty. I can wait until the league investigation makes that claim. What I'm marveling at is the fact that at this phase of the game, Pats fans are squirming like greased eels, trying to justify this type of behavior or defend it. I actually hope the league finds out that the Pats didn't do this. Why? Because then it will be fun to watch the same people who defended this type of behavior in this thread come out and pound their chests about how they didn't need it in the first place.

Yet another great and intellegent post. You resort to stereotyping and name calling, and I'm the child. Where did I shift blame or deny anything? You attack NE fans for defending their team. Then you go on to state that NE fans think their players are choir boys. I was merely rebutting those facts. I brought up the Caldwell incident, not to be a deflection or denial, but a mere case in point that many things go on in the NFL that would be considered boderline or unethical. Do a little research and you will find a ton of simliar incidents have gone on many times before with ALL teams. In fact, behavior like this used to be common place and an everyday occurence. To think that ALL teams are not guilty of simliar tactics is truly foolish.Did I ever say it was OK? NO. In fact, I stated that we should penalize them and move on. To paint an entire fan base with broad sterotypical statements and to try and diminish the great accomplishments of an historic franchise is the true crime....and it happens every day on these boards, by haters just like you.

:( Sorry if you think that "you sound like a fool" is name calling. There's a lot worse than that going on around the SP. But in all truth, you were sounding foolish, and you seem to not want to give it up.

Don't face reality. I wouldn't want to either if I was a Pats fan.

The fact is that now it's confirmed your team was breaking NFL rules. Of course, if I was a Pats fan, I, like you, would want my team to get a "slap on the wrist and move on". But that's not going to happen. They have some accounting for their actions to do. I can see, though, why Pats fans would feel that they either don't have to account for their actions, or want to justify it by saying "Everybody does it". If everybody does it, it will be found out eventually. But right now it's only your ###es that are in the frying pan, not "everybody else's". Account for yourselves first, worry about others later.

So bury your head in the sand and say that "it's blind haters" that are doing this too you. That sounds a lot like the crap that Kraft is now spewing about "When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that."

And if others are doing it, including my team, let me be clear. They should be punished too. Maybe these incidents went on in the past and maybe they didn't. Until proof is presented, it's all speculation. The only thing for certain here is that there is now a rule in place to prevent it, and the Patriots were well aware of that fact. So when you catch other teams doing it NOW THAT THE RULE RESTRICTING IT IS IN PLACE, you can complain about someone else. Until then, the Pats are the only ones who have been caught.

If you think that's just people being haters, you are the one who has a perception problem. This woud be the same if it was the Lions, the Cardinals, or the Seahawks. Cheating is cheating, no matter who is doing it. You and a lot of other Pat fans are just pissed that now people are calling past accomplishments into question. They have the right to, whether you like it or not.

Face it. Your organization got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Whether you like it or not, it will call into question their uncanny success over the last few years. Deal with it.

 

[1huskerfan]

Love the damage control/excuses by Pat fans in this thread. Seriously, they probably would have won anyway. But are some of you really such blind homers that you can't acknowledge that:

A) They may have gained an unfair advantage by doing something that the NFL has previously warned teams NOT to do, as it is cheating in their eyes, and

B) Your beloved organization isn't the bunch of choirboys they make themselves out to be?

There has been a lot of evidence that this may be true, including previous incidents. If I was a Pats fan, I would be disappointed in my team if they felt that they had to do this to win. No matter how people try to defend this behavior, it boils down to this. Any team that would do this is obviously uncomfortable with their chances of winning using strictly conventional methods.

I love these kind of posts. Why shouldn't someone defend their team? That's why they are called fans. I suppose you are totally unbiased with regard to your team. Blind homerism is better than blind hate. So get off your pedastal, and get real. Every NFL team tries to get EVERY advantage they can.I recall more than a few instances where these type of things have happened before with other teams (including the Jets). How about speculation before the game that the Jets brought Caldwell or some other NE players in, so they could learn the Defensive plays of the Pats?

Guys who are making this out to be some kind of major crime are the one who need to take the glasses off. The media is guilty of making the Pats out to be choir boys, not NE fans or players. Real NE fans know that BB and the organization are warriors and not choir boys. Its a violent sport with ALOT at stake....NE fans and players realize that. Give NE a slap on the wrist and move on....

Please stop. You sound like a fool.This is a typical response of a child who gets caught doing something wrong.

Step 1- Denial.

Step 2- Try to shift blame. "It's someone else's fault." Or "Well everyone else is doing it too."

Step 3- Bring up someone else's alleged misdeeds to divert attention.

Incidentally, if the Jets did try to bring Caldwell in to "debrief" him, I wouldn't agree with that either if it was against the rules. By the way, has the league's front office made a point of sending out warnings to teams that the practice of bringing in players that have been cut from other teams is against the rules? Have they warned that this type of action is punishable? Are you trying to compare apples to oranges in an attempt to shift the attention away from where it currently is?

I've never once said in this thread that I think the Patriots are guilty. I can wait until the league investigation makes that claim. What I'm marveling at is the fact that at this phase of the game, Pats fans are squirming like greased eels, trying to justify this type of behavior or defend it. I actually hope the league finds out that the Pats didn't do this. Why? Because then it will be fun to watch the same people who defended this type of behavior in this thread come out and pound their chests about how they didn't need it in the first place.

Yet another great and intellegent post. You resort to stereotyping and name calling, and I'm the child. Where did I shift blame or deny anything? You attack NE fans for defending their team. Then you go on to state that NE fans think their players are choir boys. I was merely rebutting those facts. I brought up the Caldwell incident, not to be a deflection or denial, but a mere case in point that many things go on in the NFL that would be considered boderline or unethical. Do a little research and you will find a ton of simliar incidents have gone on many times before with ALL teams. In fact, behavior like this used to be common place and an everyday occurence. To think that ALL teams are not guilty of simliar tactics is truly foolish.Did I ever say it was OK? NO. In fact, I stated that we should penalize them and move on. To paint an entire fan base with broad sterotypical statements and to try and diminish the great accomplishments of an historic franchise is the true crime....and it happens every day on these boards, by haters just like you.

Sorry if you think that "you sound like a fool" is name calling. There's a lot worse than that going on around the SP. But in all truth, you were sounding foolish, and you seem to not want to give it up.

Don't face reality. I wouldn't want to either if I was a Pats fan.

The fact is that now it's confirmed your team was breaking NFL rules. Of course, if I was a Pats fan, I, like you, would want my team to get a "slap on the wrist and move on". But that's not going to happen. They have some accounting for their actions to do. I can see, though, why Pats fans would feel that they either don't have to account for their actions, or want to justify it by saying "Everybody does it". If everybody does it, it will be found out eventually. But right now it's only your ###es that are in the frying pan, not "everybody else's". Account for yourselves first, worry about others later.

So bury your head in the sand and say that "it's blind haters" that are doing this too you. That sounds a lot like the crap that Kraft is now spewing about "When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that."

And if others are doing it, including my team, let me be clear. They should be punished too. Maybe these incidents went on in the past and maybe they didn't. Until proof is presented, it's all speculation. The only thing for certain here is that there is now a rule in place to prevent it, and the Patriots were well aware of that fact. So when you catch other teams doing it NOW THAT THE RULE RESTRICTING IT IS IN PLACE, you can complain about someone else. Until then, the Pats are the only ones who have been caught.

If you think that's just people being haters, you are the one who has a perception problem. This woud be the same if it was the Lions, the Cardinals, or the Seahawks. Cheating is cheating, no matter who is doing it. You and a lot of other Pat fans are just pissed that now people are calling past accomplishments into question. They have the right to, whether you like it or not.

Face it. Your organization got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Whether you like it or not, it will call into question their uncanny success over the last few years. Deal with it.

:(