What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Peterson/Taylor to share the load (1 Viewer)

The only reason I can think of is that they're tanking this season. They're more than one playmaker away from winning the Superbowl, where the NFC has no chance. They've got a great playmaker on offense who's still young, and they don't want to get him injured or give him the Larry Johnson treatment. They've got the makings of a great defense, but they're still a couple players away. If they can showcase Taylor, and trade him to one of the teams that really needs a running back, they might be able to get an early first round pick, plus whatever they get from trading Taylor, find a quarterback, and build a real contender. This team has an offensive line and a running back, and they have a defense, but they need to improve their quarterback, defensive backs, and receivers. I'm sure their ideal case would be to have a New Orleans type turnaround by adding a Brees/Schaub/McNabb? type of quarterback next offseason, adding a top defensive back in the draft or possibly trading for one, and picking up a receiver and some depth on defense. If they could keep this core together next year, they'd be able to legitimately contend for a title, which just won't happen this year. In the meantime, get Peterson some experience, get him used to a 16 game season, but don't let him get hurt.
Agree 100%. Sucks for fantasy owners this year, but it makes perfect sense. Childress must have management buy in on this approach because a coach that truly needed to win now would be running AP into the ground. Once the season is over, they can make the moves necessary to move in the right direction. Use the season to evaluate everything and address the most glaring needs. This team could make a big leap next year if they do the right things, and then we'll be hailing Childress as a genius.
No, Chili is just nuts. See KR duty as a way to protect the future of your franchise?
:football: None of this makes any sense as long as AP is returning kicks. Besides, don't they have about a million speedy wideouts that are never going to be anything in their careers anyway?ETA: Is there something in the water in Minnesota? I mean, you have McHale come in and absolutely ruin the Timberwolves and run the best player they will ever have out of town by refusing to trade for real talent, and then this ###-clown Childress claim he's saving his star RB by having him return kicks. I mean, do people get there and then get ######ed, or does Minnesota have a state policy off only hiring sports managers with aggressive brain tumors? I mean, we are talking about the state that thought Jessie Ventura would make a good governor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow...wow.As a Peterson owner myself, I've started him every week and I'm fine w/ him getting 100+ on however many touches he gets. The kick return duty has me very worried though, as he has been injury-prone his whole career anyways. I'm crossing my fingers every week about his 15 touches, let alone his 5 touches meeting defenders at full speed.
He has not been injury prone his whole career. He had the same minor injuries that any other RB that ran 25-30 times a game would get versus 8+ guys in the box. Minor ankle issue his Sophmore season. He hurt his shoulder his Freshman year and played through it. The broken collarbone could have been avoided and was his own fault for doing a "victory dive" into the endzone. Don't believe everything you read for gods sake.
Has Peterson ever returned kicks in college?
He returned some kicks at OU. Maybe 10-15 in his career. It's just another way to get your best player the ball in his hands (not that I agree with what Chili is doing).
 
I've changed my mind. I like the false sense of security he's lulling his opponents into.

Watch out for this team in the second half of the season. It wouldn't be fair to the rest of the league if he unleashed the full fury of his genius in the first ten or games. Expect the other shoe to drop soon. :goodposting:

Suckers! :sadbanana:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ScoobyDoo said:
I hope it doesn't happen, but if AP goes down like Greenway because Chili uses him on kickoffs when there are plenty of carries that he can get in this offense I just wonder what the excuse is going to be? The Greenway excuse was he wasn't good enough not to be on special teams. What's the excuse now? Why are they risking THE only skill player they have on kick returns? Something he did not do in college. This isn't Dante Hall or Devin Hester we're talking about.
Agree. Childress = Moronically loyal to veterans IMO. Thus, since AP is dying for touches (per AP quotes), he's throwing him this bone. Honestly, I just don't buy the "protect AP for future years" theory, though it makes sense to me. I think all coaching staffs think VERY short term, knowing this year could be it for them.
 
ScoobyDoo said:
I hope it doesn't happen, but if AP goes down like Greenway because Chili uses him on kickoffs when there are plenty of carries that he can get in this offense I just wonder what the excuse is going to be? The Greenway excuse was he wasn't good enough not to be on special teams. What's the excuse now? Why are they risking THE only skill player they have on kick returns? Something he did not do in college. This isn't Dante Hall or Devin Hester we're talking about.
Agree. Childress = Moronically loyal to veterans IMO. Thus, since AP is dying for touches (per AP quotes), he's throwing him this bone. Honestly, I just don't buy the "protect AP for future years" theory, though it makes sense to me. I think all coaching staffs think VERY short term, knowing this year could be it for them.
The "protect" theory goes right out the window if he's returning kicks. Newsflash, returning kicks is dangerous. Maybe it's not as dangerous as playing running back, but playing running back is his job.I just don't get it.
 
OU#1 said:
Cookiemonster said:
Wow...

wow.

As a Peterson owner myself, I've started him every week and I'm fine w/ him getting 100+ on however many touches he gets. The kick return duty has me very worried though, as he has been injury-prone his whole career anyways. I'm crossing my fingers every week about his 15 touches, let alone his 5 touches meeting defenders at full speed.
He has not been injury prone his whole career. He had the same minor injuries that any other RB that ran 25-30 times a game would get versus 8+ guys in the box. Minor ankle issue his Sophmore season. He hurt his shoulder his Freshman year and played through it. The broken collarbone could have been avoided and was his own fault for doing a "victory dive" into the endzone. Don't believe everything you read for gods sake.
Not just what I read, but that I only got to watch him play in college a couple times 'cause he was always injured.
 
mr. furley said:
prymetyme25 said:
FFdork said:
I don't have any problem with using both backs.

What I don't understand why Peterson would get so few touches in the 2nd half when he's your most explosive player and you need points fast. I can only assume that his pass blocking is suspect. Even if that's the case, figure out a way to get the ball into the hands of your best playmaker.
I think all of us in the free thinking world don't understand this.
as i'm often reminded in the Shark Pool: there's a reason that these guys are NFL head coaches and we're sitting at home playing fantasy football. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING! :eek: woo :no: :cry: :lmao:

okay.. maybe not Childress

in fairness to Brad, though, i've always said, 'if a guy is going good and the defense can't stop him.. you might want to sit him down for a while and bring in his backup who is just coming off an injury. and when the backup has 7 rushes for -3 yards you don't just want to give up on him.. you want to give him a chance to get lathered up and see what he can do... cause you already know the other guy is hot and can't be stopped. you don't need to see what he can do anymore.'

:bag:
IF YOU ARE WINNING............I am dumber for just reading that
 
mr. furley said:
prymetyme25 said:
FFdork said:
I don't have any problem with using both backs.

What I don't understand why Peterson would get so few touches in the 2nd half when he's your most explosive player and you need points fast. I can only assume that his pass blocking is suspect. Even if that's the case, figure out a way to get the ball into the hands of your best playmaker.
I think all of us in the free thinking world don't understand this.
as i'm often reminded in the Shark Pool: there's a reason that these guys are NFL head coaches and we're sitting at home playing fantasy football. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING! :no: woo :lmao: :cry: :cry:

okay.. maybe not Childress

in fairness to Brad, though, i've always said, 'if a guy is going good and the defense can't stop him.. you might want to sit him down for a while and bring in his backup who is just coming off an injury. and when the backup has 7 rushes for -3 yards you don't just want to give up on him.. you want to give him a chance to get lathered up and see what he can do... cause you already know the other guy is hot and can't be stopped. you don't need to see what he can do anymore.'

:bag:
IF YOU ARE WINNING............I am dumber for just reading that
It's a little tough to decipher sometimes, but my :eek: meter was tripping on that one.
 
Holee Crap!

The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.

At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.

Please, Please, Please!!

 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
This would be effing crazy.
 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
No, not McKinnie. A young, stud LT is very hard to come by. Unless he's due a $12M/yr contract... What would the return be?
 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
No, not McKinnie. A young, stud LT is very hard to come by. Unless he's due a $12M/yr contract... What would the return be?
McKinnie sucks. Trade him.
 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
Well TB has 4 Qbs.. maybe Sims is headed to the Vikings.
 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
I can see the Vikings possible parting with Taylor, but why McKinnie? They have a solid left side of the line so why would they want to lose that?
 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
AND McKinnie? I'll be suprised. I'd love for Taylor to get shipped out of town though.
 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
Well TB has 4 Qbs.. maybe Sims is headed to the Vikings.
I hope not.
 
ScoobyDoo said:
H.K. said:
Letting AP return kicks is the dumbest move out of all this mess.
It's moronic.
Yeah, that was the part that surprised me the most. Childress was an idiot when he was with the Badgers; obviously he's learned very little since then, other than "how to get hired".
 
From Childress:

”I think you’re mindful of that when you have a two running back attack, that you’re not going to use somebody all the way throughout,” Childress said. “And that’s the great thing about having two guys that you feel equally good about and equally explosive about. I think Chester ripped off a 35-yard run yesterday as well [actually 37 yards]. You do that changeup and it benefits both people and it benefits our football team.”
Saying that Peterson and Taylor are equally explosive is like saying Janet Reno and Jessica Alba are equally hot. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to lunch. I can't decide between Thai Food and a bowl of rusty nails. Both sound tasty.
 
tietzjd said:
Yep till AP gets 20 touches again , EDGE will be in his place starting. Might just use KJ over him too.
10 Team League13 Man Roster 1 QB- 2 RB - 2 WR - 1 TE 1 K 1- Def

Vince Young (9.10)

FPW(1.10),Edge(3.10)AP(4.1)KJ (11.10)

Harrison (2.1),Coles (7.10) S. Moss (8.10), S. Homes (10.1)

Heap (5.10) Gonzo (6.1)

Gostkowski (13.10)

IND DEF

But what about this Fast Parker Willie character?

 
mr. furley said:
prymetyme25 said:
FFdork said:
I don't have any problem with using both backs.

What I don't understand why Peterson would get so few touches in the 2nd half when he's your most explosive player and you need points fast. I can only assume that his pass blocking is suspect. Even if that's the case, figure out a way to get the ball into the hands of your best playmaker.
I think all of us in the free thinking world don't understand this.
as i'm often reminded in the Shark Pool: there's a reason that these guys are NFL head coaches and we're sitting at home playing fantasy football. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING! :X woo :X :cry: :lmao:

okay.. maybe not Childress

in fairness to Brad, though, i've always said, 'if a guy is going good and the defense can't stop him.. you might want to sit him down for a while and bring in his backup who is just coming off an injury. and when the backup has 7 rushes for -3 yards you don't just want to give up on him.. you want to give him a chance to get lathered up and see what he can do... cause you already know the other guy is hot and can't be stopped. you don't need to see what he can do anymore.'

:goodposting:
IF YOU ARE WINNING............I am dumber for just reading that
:yucky:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
From Childress:

”I think you’re mindful of that when you have a two running back attack, that you’re not going to use somebody all the way throughout,” Childress said. “And that’s the great thing about having two guys that you feel equally good about and equally explosive about. I think Chester ripped off a 35-yard run yesterday as well [actually 37 yards]. You do that changeup and it benefits both people and it benefits our football team.”
Saying that Peterson and Taylor are equally explosive is like saying Janet Reno and Jessica Alba are equally hot. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to lunch. I can't decide between Thai Food and a bowl of rusty nails. Both sound tasty.
:goodposting:Peterson looks to be at least 1 level above where Taylor is. probably 2.
 
From Childress:

”I think you’re mindful of that when you have a two running back attack, that you’re not going to use somebody all the way throughout,” Childress said. “And that’s the great thing about having two guys that you feel equally good about and equally explosive about. I think Chester ripped off a 35-yard run yesterday as well [actually 37 yards]. You do that changeup and it benefits both people and it benefits our football team.”
Saying that Peterson and Taylor are equally explosive is like saying Janet Reno and Jessica Alba are equally hot. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to lunch. I can't decide between Thai Food and a bowl of rusty nails. Both sound tasty.
:lmao:Peterson looks to be at least 1 level above where Taylor is. probably 2.
Fine. So maybe Taylor is Hillary Clinton :goodposting:
 
tietzjd said:
Yep till AP gets 20 touches again , EDGE will be in his place starting. Might just use KJ over him too.
10 Team League13 Man Roster 1 QB- 2 RB - 2 WR - 1 TE 1 K 1- Def

Vince Young (9.10)

FPW(1.10),Edge(3.10)AP(4.1)KJ (11.10)

Harrison (2.1),Coles (7.10) S. Moss (8.10), S. Homes (10.1)

Heap (5.10) Gonzo (6.1)

Gostkowski (13.10)

IND DEF

But what about this Fast Parker Willie character?
:goodposting: Did I miss something here? Why is this post here?

:lmao:

 
Strong rumors of Taylor getting traded and he is obviously already being outplayed.

I am not sure why these threads keep coming up. AD might not start week 6 or 7 but beleive me by the end of the season if he continues to perform he will be their starter. CT will keep him fresh and I tend to think that may be a good thing. AP definitely should not be on special teams at all.

 
Holee Crap!The Tampa Tribune reports that there is talk in Minnesota of a deal that would send RB Chester Taylor and T Bryant McKinnie to the Bucs.At the 3-1, the Bucs are in win-now mode and need help after injuries to Cadillac Williams and Luke Petitgout, but deals of this magnitude in the NFL rarely occur, especially in season. The Vikes could afford to part with Taylor as rookie Adrian Peterson has been strong out of the gate.Please, Please, Please!!
This would be effing crazy.
That would be ####!
 
From Childress:

”I think you’re mindful of that when you have a two running back attack, that you’re not going to use somebody all the way throughout,” Childress said. “And that’s the great thing about having two guys that you feel equally good about and equally explosive about. I think Chester ripped off a 35-yard run yesterday as well [actually 37 yards]. You do that changeup and it benefits both people and it benefits our football team.”
Saying that Peterson and Taylor are equally explosive is like saying Janet Reno and Jessica Alba are equally hot. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to lunch. I can't decide between Thai Food and a bowl of rusty nails. Both sound tasty.
How many times you gonna use that joke?
 
Strong rumors of Taylor getting traded and he is obviously already being outplayed. I am not sure why these threads keep coming up. AD might not start week 6 or 7 but beleive me by the end of the season if he continues to perform he will be their starter. CT will keep him fresh and I tend to think that may be a good thing. AP definitely should not be on special teams at all.
I don't think it matters if he's the 'starter' or not if he's the one producing. Like Rhodes/Addai last year, Rhodes was the starter but Addai put up the numbers
 
From Childress:

”I think you’re mindful of that when you have a two running back attack, that you’re not going to use somebody all the way throughout,” Childress said. “And that’s the great thing about having two guys that you feel equally good about and equally explosive about. I think Chester ripped off a 35-yard run yesterday as well [actually 37 yards]. You do that changeup and it benefits both people and it benefits our football team.”
Saying that Peterson and Taylor are equally explosive is like saying Janet Reno and Jessica Alba are equally hot. Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to lunch. I can't decide between Thai Food and a bowl of rusty nails. Both sound tasty.
How many times you gonna use that joke?
Twice :X
 
H.K. said:
bostonfred said:
The only reason I can think of is that they're tanking this season. They're more than one playmaker away from winning the Superbowl, where the NFC has no chance. They've got a great playmaker on offense who's still young, and they don't want to get him injured or give him the Larry Johnson treatment. They've got the makings of a great defense, but they're still a couple players away. If they can showcase Taylor, and trade him to one of the teams that really needs a running back, they might be able to get an early first round pick, plus whatever they get from trading Taylor, find a quarterback, and build a real contender. This team has an offensive line and a running back, and they have a defense, but they need to improve their quarterback, defensive backs, and receivers. I'm sure their ideal case would be to have a New Orleans type turnaround by adding a Brees/Schaub/McNabb? type of quarterback next offseason, adding a top defensive back in the draft or possibly trading for one, and picking up a receiver and some depth on defense. If they could keep this core together next year, they'd be able to legitimately contend for a title, which just won't happen this year. In the meantime, get Peterson some experience, get him used to a 16 game season, but don't let him get hurt.
Agree 100%. Sucks for fantasy owners this year, but it makes perfect sense. Childress must have management buy in on this approach because a coach that truly needed to win now would be running AP into the ground. Once the season is over, they can make the moves necessary to move in the right direction. Use the season to evaluate everything and address the most glaring needs. This team could make a big leap next year if they do the right things, and then we'll be hailing Childress as a genius.
OK fine, but I think you can get him 14-18 touches a game without killing him this year. Geting him 10 in the first half and sending him to the sidelines isn't a good way to get him ready for 08 and beyond.
 
Maybe the Vikes would get Gruden in return.
Hell no.What would the Vikings possibly get in return for the trade? Draft picks are about all the Bucs have to offer.I can't imagine McKinnie's contract allows him to be tradeable. They just re-upped him at the beginning of last year.And as bad as he is, anything else on the team is worse.
 
Perhaps the Vikings were showcasing Chester this past weekend and giving him more carries than AP.

I think the Viks would be fine with AP and Mewelde Moore backing him up. Vikings could use a draft pick or WR help.

 
The best part is when Childress says he needs to keep some fresh legs on his running backs. He had no problems at all running Chester Taylor into the ground last year. Either he's lying or he's an egomaniac. I don't really see any other options.

I don't think Childress is very fond of Mewelde Moore. There is no way he trades his guy in Chester Taylor.

 
Chester Taylor 2006 - 303 carries + 42 receptions

#10 in the league in # of carries

eta: that's in 15 games though i seem to remember him missing 1 or two or at least chunks of 1 or 2 games

 
Last edited by a moderator:
NatronIsMean said:
All I have to say is that the Bears better be ready to out-bid Minnesota for a QB free agent this off season. They already have us beat at RB to say the least, and their defense is stout. The Bears cannot f'ing mess around with QBs anymore, and we KNOW Chicago's ownership scout's offensive skill players horribly.
You mean out bid for Harrington? Shhh, don't let the Bears know we are going after Harrington 'cause they might outbid us! :confused: The Bears DO need another partial season QB to go with the rest.I have a feeling Chili is going to torture us all season with AP/CT. They don't call him an offensive mastermind for nothing. Huh? They DON'T call him that? Oh, never mind.
 
Maybe the Vikes would get Gruden in return.
Hell no.What would the Vikings possibly get in return for the trade? Draft picks are about all the Bucs have to offer.I can't imagine McKinnie's contract allows him to be tradeable. They just re-upped him at the beginning of last year.And as bad as he is, anything else on the team is worse.
Dufresne, I know you're a Minny homer, do you think there is no chance that a trade for Chester Taylor goes down?
 
ScoobyDoo said:
H.K. said:
Letting AP return kicks is the dumbest move out of all this mess.
It's moronic.
Completely agree. If AD is that explosive that you need kickoffs to get him more touches, you should already be feeding him the rock extensively in your otherwise pathetic offensive attack. I can only think of 3 reasons Chilly would do what he's doing with AD:1. Out of the concerns about AD's durability, he promised himself that he'd limit AD's touches all season in order to prevent an injury while the rookie learns the ropes.2. He strongly believes in rewarding hard-working veterans who have been productive (which Taylor has) even if a younger player is better and really should unseat them.3. He wants to trade Taylor and is trying to boost his value.Each of these reasons are BS, and Chilly wont get by with either much longer if the Vikes keep losing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
All I have to say is that the Bears better be ready to out-bid Minnesota for a QB free agent this off season. They already have us beat at RB to say the least, and their defense is stout. The Bears cannot f'ing mess around with QBs anymore, and we KNOW Chicago's ownership scout's offensive skill players horribly.
You mean out bid for Harrington? Shhh, don't let the Bears know we are going after Harrington 'cause they might outbid us! :shrug: The Bears DO need another partial season QB to go with the rest.I have a feeling Chili is going to torture us all season with AP/CT. They don't call him an offensive mastermind for nothing. Huh? They DON'T call him that? Oh, never mind.
Hey, that might work on Jerry Angelo, but not me ;-)We're both in the same boat... the only consolation is that I REALLY think Favre will be gone after this year. With age and the immaculate year (relatively speaking) that he's enjoying, this would be a nice way for him to go out. We'll see, but otherwise it'll be the teams with good/great QBs (GB and DET) and the teams without...
 
Maybe the Vikes would get Gruden in return.
Hell no.What would the Vikings possibly get in return for the trade? Draft picks are about all the Bucs have to offer.I can't imagine McKinnie's contract allows him to be tradeable. They just re-upped him at the beginning of last year.And as bad as he is, anything else on the team is worse.
Dufresne, I know you're a Minny homer, do you think there is no chance that a trade for Chester Taylor goes down?
If they can't get at least a 4th for him, I'd say there's little chance he leaves. Even though he hasn't been used much, he's a cheap insurance policy, is pretty good, and seemed to get himself out of the doghouse with his hard work in the pre-season.But then, geting inside the heads of those that run the Vikings right now is a scary proposition, so I'm better off saying "I don't know". :unsure:
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top