Phenoms going under (1 Viewer)

[Touchdown There]

That was actually a real screen shot of Mike's account? I assumed it was a fake and a joke. What lawyer would let Mike send out a screenshot of his checking account?

It was a fake I did in 2 minutes in Paint to show how easy it is. Looked real?

Looks nothing like the real thing.

Weird fatjerry, because it is an actual screenshot of my Wells Fargo account with the numbers changed. Don't be all pissy.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I'm really surprised this happened, I have been in his leagues for the past three years, including baseball and football. Anytime that I ever won money I received the money promptly and he was a regular here on the forums. I know his brother is the play by play announcer for the Pirates and his dad has a decent amount of money, why couldn't he just have borrowed if from them? There's no way anyone is going to get their money back if he files bankruptcy it's even a longer shot to get the money back from a lawsuit. I agree that we should pursue legal action against this guy and I find the fact that he is deciding whether or not to pursue the Web Developer for legal action to be laughable.

His brother is what?

no nans: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/personality/dan-zangrilli/

Pre- and post- game announcer. Not the play by play (who has been there 20+ years).

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

That was actually a real screen shot of Mike's account? I assumed it was a fake and a joke. What lawyer would let Mike send out a screenshot of his checking account?

It was a fake I did in 2 minutes in Paint to show how easy it is. Looked real?

Looks nothing like the real thing.

Could you post a snapshot of what the real thing looks like?

 

[Detroit Fan 365]

I'm really surprised this happened, I have been in his leagues for the past three years, including baseball and football. Anytime that I ever won money I received the money promptly and he was a regular here on the forums. I know his brother is the play by play announcer for the Pirates and his dad has a decent amount of money, why couldn't he just have borrowed if from them? There's no way anyone is going to get their money back if he files bankruptcy it's even a longer shot to get the money back from a lawsuit. I agree that we should pursue legal action against this guy and I find the fact that he is deciding whether or not to pursue the Web Developer for legal action to be laughable.

His brother is what?

no nans: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/personality/dan-zangrilli/

Well now we have someone else we can contact.

 

[GregR]

I mentioned this before, but for all those saying "he just spent the money it happens". What mike did is the VERY definition of Embezzlment... the state of Utah is in the midst of persecuting a person for the exact same thing.. Interesting note, she stole 1.3 million, and if mike is looking for 600k along with the 681 k he currently has, that is 1.3 million as well

Regardless, in the state of Utah, anything more 9,999.00 taken is a class two felony, punishable by up to 20 years in prison for the first offense.

Take into account if he used any of that money to purchase stock/software/ski vacation, that is wire fraud, for each purchase he made.

The more publicity this gets, the more pressure he will be under.

Bankruptcy will not keep him out of jail, especially considering they are actively persecuting guys like mike. If he cuts a deal for a shorter jail sentence in exchange for making everyone whole, so be it, but it baffles me that so many people think mike will just declare bankruptcy and give the finger to everyone, he is in deep trouble from a variety of angles

Walk, I'm not a lawyer but I suspect it could only be embezzlement if he took the money out of the company for other than legitimate company use.

So far haven't seen any actual evidence of where the money went to, just people speculating about it.

If he did take the money for himself, yes, probably embezzlement.

If he did not, if he actually paid the software company what he said for what would have been a legitimate (if unwise) business expense, then I don't believe there is much chance it could be considered embezzlement. Though depending on the laws dealing with fraud and what, if any, guarantees he made about the escrow, it could be considered fraud.

Again, I'm not a lawyer to say for sure. But I don't think anyone can claim with certainty it was embezzlement when there's no evidence yet of where the money actually went.

 

[Detroit Fan 365]

I'm really surprised this happened, I have been in his leagues for the past three years, including baseball and football. Anytime that I ever won money I received the money promptly and he was a regular here on the forums. I know his brother is the play by play announcer for the Pirates and his dad has a decent amount of money, why couldn't he just have borrowed if from them? There's no way anyone is going to get their money back if he files bankruptcy it's even a longer shot to get the money back from a lawsuit. I agree that we should pursue legal action against this guy and I find the fact that he is deciding whether or not to pursue the Web Developer for legal action to be laughable.

His brother is what?

no nans: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/personality/dan-zangrilli/

Pre- and post- game announcer. Not the play by play (who has been there 20+ years).

Okay, so I was wrong about play by play, but he is affiliated with the Pirates.

 

[IC FBGCav]

That was actually a real screen shot of Mike's account? I assumed it was a fake and a joke. What lawyer would let Mike send out a screenshot of his checking account?

It was a fake I did in 2 minutes in Paint to show how easy it is. Looked real?

Looks nothing like the real thing.

Could you post a snapshot of what the real thing looks like?

I have interacted with you before. Pm me your email I will forward it to you. Please delete it after you look at it.

 

[Johnny Ryall]

To the guys in here plugging their own sites, sorry but no way I do that again. I joined two Phenoms leagues this year (1 dynasty startup & 1 redraft), which was the 1st time I paid to play online. I didn't make the playoffs in either so technically I'm only out next year's dynasty deposit ($50, which I plan to file a charge back tonight). I consider it lesson learned.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I'm really surprised this happened, I have been in his leagues for the past three years, including baseball and football. Anytime that I ever won money I received the money promptly and he was a regular here on the forums. I know his brother is the play by play announcer for the Pirates and his dad has a decent amount of money, why couldn't he just have borrowed if from them? There's no way anyone is going to get their money back if he files bankruptcy it's even a longer shot to get the money back from a lawsuit. I agree that we should pursue legal action against this guy and I find the fact that he is deciding whether or not to pursue the Web Developer for legal action to be laughable.

His brother is what?

no nans: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/personality/dan-zangrilli/

Pre- and post- game announcer. Not the play by play (who has been there 20+ years).

Okay, so I was wrong about play by play, but he is affiliated with the Pirates.

Sorry, he's not one of the six radio/tv guys listed on the Bucs official website. My reaction was more directed toward Unlucky (what kind of bs...).

 

[Dizzy]

That was actually a real screen shot of Mike's account? I assumed it was a fake and a joke. What lawyer would let Mike send out a screenshot of his checking account?

It was a fake I did in 2 minutes in Paint to show how easy it is. Looked real?

Looks nothing like the real thing.

Really? Looks exactly like my Wells Fargo on-line banking... only with a crap load more money in it.

 

[17seconds]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money. I would think that even if I didn't win anything. It's not about what I'm getting. It's not about getting everything you can. That has already been done.

should I get back my dynasty deposit for next year?

 

[BassNBrew]

Also for those complaining about people who didn't cash charging back their CC's please stop.

They entered the leagues under the pretense that they would have a chance to win money, they weren't delivered what they paid for.

Everyone who can should be charging back their CC's. Hate to break it to the "winners" but the odds are you're not getting paid anything. Charge everything you can back, you were scammed and not given the product you paid for.

This is not true. If there are funds to be recovered and split amongst the winners, anyone who lost could potentially have their chargeback taken out of pool of money to pay the winners, screwing them over even more. This of course is all dependent on how much money remains and where it is located, but none of us know right now and won't until more information comes out. If you lost and initiate a chargeback you are stealing from either the winners, paypal, or your credit card company, none of which are acceptable to me.

Disagree…you paid for a competition that would hold funds to payout the winners after 16 weeks. You did not get what you paid/contracted for so you are entitled to a refund.

 

[ArbyMelt]

I'm really surprised this happened, I have been in his leagues for the past three years, including baseball and football. Anytime that I ever won money I received the money promptly and he was a regular here on the forums. I know his brother is the play by play announcer for the Pirates and his dad has a decent amount of money, why couldn't he just have borrowed if from them? There's no way anyone is going to get their money back if he files bankruptcy it's even a longer shot to get the money back from a lawsuit. I agree that we should pursue legal action against this guy and I find the fact that he is deciding whether or not to pursue the Web Developer for legal action to be laughable.

His brother is what?

no nans: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/personality/dan-zangrilli/

Well now we have someone else we can contact.

According to the article about his dad posted earlier, this is not his brother. His brother's name is Mark, who is easily googlable. He has been in FF leagues with Mike. More

http://www.cpewc.com/awards/awards_archive/tech_achievement/2011ta.html

 

[TheWalk84]

I mentioned this before, but for all those saying "he just spent the money it happens". What mike did is the VERY definition of Embezzlment... the state of Utah is in the midst of persecuting a person for the exact same thing.. Interesting note, she stole 1.3 million, and if mike is looking for 600k along with the 681 k he currently has, that is 1.3 million as well

Regardless, in the state of Utah, anything more 9,999.00 taken is a class two felony, punishable by up to 20 years in prison for the first offense.

Take into account if he used any of that money to purchase stock/software/ski vacation, that is wire fraud, for each purchase he made.

The more publicity this gets, the more pressure he will be under.

Bankruptcy will not keep him out of jail, especially considering they are actively persecuting guys like mike. If he cuts a deal for a shorter jail sentence in exchange for making everyone whole, so be it, but it baffles me that so many people think mike will just declare bankruptcy and give the finger to everyone, he is in deep trouble from a variety of angles

Walk, I'm not a lawyer but I suspect it could only be embezzlement if he took the money out of the company for other than legitimate company use.

So far haven't seen any actual evidence of where the money went to, just people speculating about it.

If he did take the money for himself, yes, probably embezzlement.

If he did not, if he actually paid the software company what he said for what would have been a legitimate (if unwise) business expense, then I don't believe there is much chance it could be considered embezzlement. Though depending on the laws dealing with fraud and what, if any, guarantees he made about the escrow, it could be considered fraud.

Again, I'm not a lawyer to say for sure. But I don't think anyone can claim with certainty it was embezzlement when there's no evidence yet of where the money actually went.

Embezzlment does not need to prove it could have been work related, embezzlment is when an entrusted person uses the funds for anything other than what it was meant for. In the current Utah case involving Embezzlment the woman supposedly paid a marketing firm, bought items to impress clients, and took clients on vacation as a way to further the business.

Most cases of Embezzlment invovle some form of a person trying to grow their own business or personal status, ultimately the reason won't matter.

He was an entrusted source who took the money and used something other than what it was intended to be used for, there are no other interpretations that can be made...

 

[TheWalk84]

Also working against him I believe is all of his by-laws are stock by-laws that are used by many others... Having general terms and agreements in a case like this will ultimately neautrilize what by-laws are initially intended for to protect him...

 

[fatness]

a few updates:

MyFantasyLeague's official twitter said they were shocked and appalled by what happened with Phenoms and they were meeting together today to discuss what they can do to help this situation (perhaps provide free hosting next year for phenom members?)

Mike has informed some members via email that he planning on filing bankruptcy for the company if he can't get 600K in the next two weeks

And the promised 20% to 40% payout heads toward 0.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

That was actually a real screen shot of Mike's account? I assumed it was a fake and a joke. What lawyer would let Mike send out a screenshot of his checking account?

It was a fake I did in 2 minutes in Paint to show how easy it is. Looked real?

Looks nothing like the real thing.

Could you post a snapshot of what the real thing looks like?

I have interacted with you before. Pm me your email I will forward it to you. Please delete it after you look at it.

For those who were confused like me, it looks like basically a copy and paste from Quickbooks or something. Pasted with formatting preserved, so the account dropdown is still there and working in the email (in the sense that when you click it, it expands and you can pick different accounts) but it's not actually linked to anything (so if you do select a different account from the dropdown, none of the numbers actually update or anything).

Thanks for sharing, it makes a lot more sense now.

 

[artyshellz]

I'm in the championship of Alpha 63 this weekend. I'm not surprised by this, good thing I only played in one $50 league with phenoms this year.

I'll find another service, and just like this year, I won't spend more than $50.

My reasoning is that it's hard to find live auction leagues that use MFL.

If you guys know any good alternatives lemme know.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

Also for those complaining about people who didn't cash charging back their CC's please stop.

They entered the leagues under the pretense that they would have a chance to win money, they weren't delivered what they paid for.

Everyone who can should be charging back their CC's. Hate to break it to the "winners" but the odds are you're not getting paid anything. Charge everything you can back, you were scammed and not given the product you paid for.

This is not true. If there are funds to be recovered and split amongst the winners, anyone who lost could potentially have their chargeback taken out of pool of money to pay the winners, screwing them over even more. This of course is all dependent on how much money remains and where it is located, but none of us know right now and won't until more information comes out. If you lost and initiate a chargeback you are stealing from either the winners, paypal, or your credit card company, none of which are acceptable to me.

Disagree…you paid for a competition that would hold funds to payout the winners after 16 weeks. You did not get what you paid/contracted for so you are entitled to a refund.

exactly, people didn't get what they paid for. Everyone should chargeback and do it as soon as possible.

 

[Drunken Benson]

IMO stick with the large, reputable companies (CBS,Yahoo, etc. for season-long, FD and DK for dailies) or you're always running the risk that they guy behind the website is going to walk with your money.

CBS and Yahoo offer dynasty FF leagues that they manage the prize money for? We really don't have any option if we want to play dynasty/keeper leagues for real money. I took to dynasty twitter and ended up with 2 cheap $50 dynasty leagues, that's it. What Mike offered was something unique that you couldn't really find at a "reputable" company.

also from what i've been told aren the payouts at cbs/yahoo etc. terrible?

CBS is brutal, but Yahoo pays 90% on all leagues. $20, $100, $250 leagues. I've played there for 4 years now; pretty good experience so far. My main complaint is that the only option is shallow 10-team redraft leagues, but they added auction leagues this year at least. They are probably the only place I will play, going forward.

 

[IC FBGCav]

IMO stick with the large, reputable companies (CBS,Yahoo, etc. for season-long, FD and DK for dailies) or you're always running the risk that they guy behind the website is going to walk with your money.

CBS and Yahoo offer dynasty FF leagues that they manage the prize money for? We really don't have any option if we want to play dynasty/keeper leagues for real money. I took to dynasty twitter and ended up with 2 cheap $50 dynasty leagues, that's it. What Mike offered was something unique that you couldn't really find at a "reputable" company.

also from what i've been told aren the payouts at cbs/yahoo etc. terrible?

CBS is brutal, but Yahoo pays 90% on all leagues. $20, $100, $250 leagues. I've played there for 4 years now; pretty good experience so far. My main complaint is that the only option is shallow 10-team redraft leagues, but they added auction leagues this year at least. They are probably the only place I will play, going forward.

I would like to play all my leagues there but collusion is a problem and they do not monitor it well.

 

[Drunken Benson]

CBS is brutal, but Yahoo pays 90% on all leagues. $20, $100, $250 leagues. I've played there for 4 years now; pretty good experience so far. My main complaint is that the only option is shallow 10-team redraft leagues, but they added auction leagues this year at least. They are probably the only place I will play, going forward.

I would like to play all my leagues there but collusion is a problem and they do not monitor it well.

Interesting. I have seen around 5 lopsided trades, protested them (click the "protest'' button), and all have been disallowed. I have done well there, many of the players are not the brightest. (Phenoms was, on the other hand, a shark magnet. Maybe it's just as well they are gone.)

 

[Davewhit]

Would like to join a league next year with some of the Phenoms guys if anyone is interested. Was my first year playing here (lucky me right?), but like Bensons said, it was good comp and made it challenging and fun. Was actually in a couple gamma leagues with you Bensons. First year doing an auction too on Phenoms and got hooked. Don't think I'll ever go back to snake drafts.

 

[artyshellz]

I'm 100% with you Dave. Someone should start up some live auction leagues. The money isn't everything for me, I'll play for $20.

Sure Mike is an idiot, but we shouldn't let him hold us down.

There are some positives to build upon.

Auction at ESPN.

Run the league on MFL.

Only thing we should do different is use leaguesafe.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Ugh, I had never heard of Phenoms before, but having been through WCOFF and Antsports I understand the pain. Sorry to hear about this guys.

 

[robcards]

This is not true. If there are funds to be recovered and split amongst the winners, anyone who lost could potentially have their chargeback taken out of pool of money to pay the winners, screwing them over even more. This of course is all dependent on how much money remains and where it is located, but none of us know right now and won't until more information comes out. If you lost and initiate a chargeback you are stealing from either the winners, paypal, or your credit card company, none of which are acceptable to me.

People who file a chargeback with their cc company are NOT stealing from the league winners because the league winners weren't going to see those winnings anyway. Even if the winners were to receive the 20% that Mike stated in his email (spoiler: they won't, the first thing any lawyer would tell Mike is to not pay a dime back), then the non-winners entered a contest that was not what they signed up for, and certainly are entitled to a chargeback.

 

[17seconds]

a few updates:

MyFantasyLeague's official twitter said they were shocked and appalled by what happened with Phenoms and they were meeting together today to discuss what they can do to help this situation (perhaps provide free hosting next year for phenom members?)

Mike has informed some members via email that he planning on filing bankruptcy for the company if he can't get 600K in the next two weeks

And the promised 20% to 40% payout heads toward 0.

Come on chet, help us

 

[17seconds]

Where is a decent place to play dynasty? Phenoms was the only option I was aware of.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

IMO stick with the large, reputable companies (CBS,Yahoo, etc. for season-long, FD and DK for dailies) or you're always running the risk that they guy behind the website is going to walk with your money.

CBS and Yahoo offer dynasty FF leagues that they manage the prize money for? We really don't have any option if we want to play dynasty/keeper leagues for real money. I took to dynasty twitter and ended up with 2 cheap $50 dynasty leagues, that's it. What Mike offered was something unique that you couldn't really find at a "reputable" company.

Agreed. My point wasn't that the big sites offer a perfect substitute. It's just that if you're not playing on a big site like those I mentioned, you have to know that you're putting your money at risk.

 

[JohnnyU]

Where is a decent place to play dynasty? Phenoms was the only option I was aware of.

I've been running $100 entry fees dynasty leagues for about 12 years (Fantasy Legends I & 2) and turned over FLL3 and FLL4 over to two other commishs to cut back on the leagues I run. I've always paid out winners a week after our Super Bowl (week 16). I keep all funds separate in PayPal. We've replaced a few owners over the last decade, but not many. I can't imagine running hundreds of leagues, even if I wanted to. I personally don't like to play in leagues that cost more than $100 either. I've been ripped off a couple of times (Presidential II league run by Aquil Salahudeen, he owes me $700). I remember my first experience with a deadbeat commish, it happen to be the first Fantasy Legends League (called something else in the beginning I believe), the one I eventually took over and was my first league I was commissioner. He tried to take our money. We tracked him down and if memory serves he lived in Minnesota and was close to me. Lets just say we got in touch with him and got our money back. The rest is history as far as the Fantasy Legends Leagues go. FBGs like Steelers 4 Life, Arikias, Boone22, and Bada Bing, who were original members (and still in FLL1), can probably remember this better than I do.

 

[fuzzy]

I should clarify, any other site I join I am going to insist on full transparency and third party holding of funds…

That said, as I have stated earlier, I lost thousands to Mike this year, but what I am most upset about is losing the competition and camaraderie, Deep rosters, and simplicity...

Not sure if I will ever find it, but I will always be looking

Yes, they do exist. Check my sig.

Fuzzy, do you use an escrow service?

I do not use League Safe or an escrow account. I never really thought about it as this is the first time I have been asked. The payments go into my business account and then I transfer them into what used to be an ING account (Now Capital 360) every few days during the draft season. Every penny gets transferred into those accounts (I don't take my share until everything is paid out.) Members that leave money in their accounts during the offseason stays in the Capital 360 accounts. As some noted on this thread - it is a lot of work but it is for about 8-9 months out of the year. I used to teach (kids - lots of them lol), I was an accountant (long hours) - I know I am blessed with what I do. I don't need to go work for someone else and the profits combined with my web development business suits me just fine. It was a life long dream to operate a profitable business and not work for someone else - don't know how anyone else would want to blow that dream! Yea, I guess addiction can do that. As noted before, I don't gamble. The most I paid for a fantasy football league has been $300 but I prefer to stay in the $100 range for my own leagues. Anyhow, I guess that was a long answer to the escrow service or League Safe question. I could look into these options if necessary.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

This is Mike:

I didn't see your message board post until today on the league website. However, at the time of the draft, the illegal roster was corrected. So, the owner had a legal roster. Secondly, had he gotten 0 points from those picks, he still would have won. Thirdly, I made similar corrections in other playoff league drafts where illegal picks were made. Unfortunately, due to the flex spots, the computer software allowed illegal picks in the first place as it improperly enforced the roster requirements. I'll listen to all arguments and consider rule changes related to this.MikeCommissioner, Phenoms FF

So he last posted November 14th. About a month ago. And he's IN Tim's FFA league??

Just taking a look in the rear-view mirror. How's it going back there, suckers?

That's an unfortunately ironic final posting.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Also for those complaining about people who didn't cash charging back their CC's please stop.

They entered the leagues under the pretense that they would have a chance to win money, they weren't delivered what they paid for.

Everyone who can should be charging back their CC's. Hate to break it to the "winners" but the odds are you're not getting paid anything. Charge everything you can back, you were scammed and not given the product you paid for.

This is not true. If there are funds to be recovered and split amongst the winners, anyone who lost could potentially have their chargeback taken out of pool of money to pay the winners, screwing them over even more. This of course is all dependent on how much money remains and where it is located, but none of us know right now and won't until more information comes out. If you lost and initiate a chargeback you are stealing from either the winners, paypal, or your credit card company, none of which are acceptable to me

Maybe. But you may also be preventing any additional money being paid to a bad web developer that billed significantly more than estimated for a project that was never completed. If the story is true, then this developer is also demanding a piece of any remaining funds as well. And who knows how many other creditors there are. There's no guarantee it goes to the winners.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

The notion that any settlement a Phenoms league owner could obtain on CC chargebacks (or any other claim) could include potential winnings is hilariously naive. Best case, we get our original buy in of entry fees and/or deposits for dynasties.

 

[BassNBrew]

The notion that any settlement a Phenoms league owner could obtain on CC chargebacks (or any other claim) could include potential winnings is hilariously naive. Best case, we get our original buy in of entry fees and/or deposits for dynasties.

Exactly.

Let's say this went to bankruptcy court and there ended up being funds leftover. Do you think the court is more likely to

a) give all the participants money back at an equal amount

b) or figure out the amount BigassTDs the higher scorer in week 6 gets

 

[sdp1226]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

No it's not, it's not even close.

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

No it's not, it's not even close.

Let's put it in simple terms. You pay an entry fee to play an entire season for the right to win some money. If you paid your entry fee and you didn't win any money, then you don't deserve any money if all of what was supposed to be paid out to the winners is eventually paid to the winners after legal action is taken.

 

[fatness]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

No it's not, it's not even close.

Let's put it in simple terms. You pay an entry fee to play an entire season for the right to win some money.

And there was no opportunity to win money.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

It doesn't matter anymore who won or lost this weekend or next. We all lost. Phenoms breached its contract to everyone on that site promising our funds would be protected until they were rightfully dispersed. I'm theoritcally entitled to a lot more than my original buy-in, but since we all got conned, I'm ok with everyone getting their money back as this transaction was entirely fraudulent. If we are being fair. I've seen some playoff teams already dump their roster wholesale to waivers. There's no fair way to determine who gets what based on "woulda won's" or "shoulda lost's". Of course, I'm pessimistic that anybody recieves a penny.

 

[jon_mx]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

No it's not, it's not even close.

Let's put it in simple terms. You pay an entry fee to play an entire season for the right to win some money. If you paid your entry fee and you didn't win any money, then you don't deserve any money if all of what was supposed to be paid out to the winners is eventually paid to the winners after legal action is taken.

From the court's perspective, it is not even clear if this is legal under Federal or Utah's law. Federal law does have some specific exceptions for FF, but states have all interpreted the rules different and some have made up their own rules. The court is not going to care who won a league or may not even care who paid an entry fee. The court is not in the business or enforcing illegal contracts.

 

[ROCKET]

How about any owner that wouldn't have won any $$ who is fortunate enough to get the entry fee rebated to their cc ( if there is any, I don't see it happening) man up and send the money to the winner of their league?

Anyone who doesn't has about the same amount of decency and integrity as Mike.

 

[jon_mx]

How about any owner that wouldn't have won any $$ who is fortunate enough to get the entry fee rebated to their cc ( if there is any, I don't see it happening) man up and send the money to the winner of their league?

If a court does pay out money, they will likely take the simple way out and divide it based on what was paid in. They are highly unlikely to bother to try to figure out how much each person might have won.

 

[ROCKET]

How about any owner that wouldn't have won any $$ who is fortunate enough to get the entry fee rebated to their cc ( if there is any, I don't see it happening) man up and send the money to the winner of their league?

If a court does pay out money, they will likely take the simple way out and divide it based on what was paid in. They are highly unlikely to bother to try to figure out how much each person might have won.

Agreed, but what does that have to do with any losing owners doing the right thing with the $$ they get rebated on cc's?

 

[ROCKET]

How about any owner that wouldn't have won any $$ who is fortunate enough to get the entry fee rebated to their cc ( if there is any, I don't see it happening) man up and send the money to the winner of their league?

If a court does pay out money, they will likely take the simple way out and divide it based on what was paid in. They are highly unlikely to bother to try to figure out how much each person might have won.

Agreed, but what does that have to do with any losing owners doing the right thing with the $$ they get rebated on cc's?

ETA: I see your point. Also if any losing owner ever receives a dime they were not entitled to thru a lawsuit they should do the right thing with it and kick it back to the winners. I have basically dismissed the chances of that even happening so I didn't mention that scenario.

 

[Shutout]

You guys in any Masters leagues? They appear to be doing the same thing Phenoms was (minus the theft so far).

I am in 70 leagues over there. They sent me a snap shot of their bank account and told me their accounting procedures when I brought this subject up with them.

Here is a snapshot of Mike's Wells Fargo account: http://postimg.org/image/ryr3m9cv1/

Their was not fake like that one. It was done so I could toggle between the account balances.

How do you toggle in a "snapshot"? Elaborate on how this was done because it makes no sense right now.

It is was a cut and paste of their money market account. In the top right you can change between accounts. I can see the balances of two other accounts when I hit the drop down button.

Cut and paste with a drop down menu? Sorry, but your explanation has gone from bad to worse. I am a DBA, and if they sent you something offline, it is not actually connecting to the bank's database. There is no way they gave you a login to their bank account, so all you have right now is your lying eyes. At the same time, the owner of Master's has been asked twice if he uses an escrow and there has been no response. Simple as this, do not sign up for any league that does not use an escrow service like leaguesafe.com.

Is this a joke? Leaguesafe can do the same thing Phenoms did. It is all a trust issue, leaguesafe isn't federally backed.

How do you know? If they have the funds secured in bank accounts under the max for FDIC insurance, then they are fully insured.

I think you have some sort of an affiliation with Master's. This Mike guy did the same thing when other leagues went down. There was a forum thread and Mike came in to post how awesome his site is and how he would never do what others have done. Déjà vu, all over again.

There is nothing stopping the owner of leaguesafe of empting the accounts and taking the money like Mike. As for Masters I can give a #### less if anyone plays there or not. I was concerned about my money and wrote to them. I am simply passing that along here Homer. You seem to have the agenda not me. People know me here and know I have no affiliation with that site.

That's not the case at all.

I have set up a few leagues with Leaguesafe and I researched them before I did several years ago and, at the time I set them up, they were set up to collect deposits which are FDIC secured and held in a bank in Montana or the Dakotas (I forget the exact name but I recall thinking at the time it was odd it was not one of the more known banks...which I checked into and verified).

I would also speculate that there is a great chance that they are not holding "lazy" money so these deposits are probably going into very short-term C.D.'s, etc, and they are using capital to pay winnings, sitting on short term small rakes off these safe investments, and trickling in revenue there.

My company does this on a huge scale (lots of revolving accounts that are constantly coming due, reinvesting, etc. Simple software makes it very manageable and with enough money flowing, you can scrape off income that makes it worthwhile.

ALso, I know you can say this about anyone and be wrong but I know the history of the Leaguesafe people and I would be SHOCKED if they pulled a stunt like this (of course, can be wrong, for sure).

 

[JohnnyU]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

No it's not, it's not even close.

Let's put it in simple terms. You pay an entry fee to play an entire season for the right to win some money. If you paid your entry fee and you didn't win any money, then you don't deserve any money if all of what was supposed to be paid out to the winners is eventually paid to the winners after legal action is taken.

From the court's perspective, it is not even clear if this is legal under Federal or Utah's law. Federal law does have some specific exceptions for FF, but states have all interpreted the rules different and some have made up their own rules. The court is not going to care who won a league or may not even care who paid an entry fee. The court is not in the business or enforcing illegal contracts.

If that is true, then it's up to the integrity of the league to disperse the money to the winners if they are refunded their entry fees. If they don't, then they are no better than Mike.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

How about any owner that wouldn't have won any $$ who is fortunate enough to get the entry fee rebated to their cc ( if there is any, I don't see it happening) man up and send the money to the winner of their league?

Anyone who doesn't has about the same amount of decency and integrity as Mike.

Excellent idea. I HIGHLY doubt people who can somehow justify to themselves that they deserve to get their money back, after losing their league, is going to do that, though.

 

[thetman]

How bout somebody (me) who lost in football with a few $50 leagues, but is in first place of a $200 basketball league? I'm trying to get my entry fees charged back to me.

 

[jon_mx]

I don't think people who didn't win money should get money.

Agreed. That's just as fraudulent as what Mike did.

No it's not, it's not even close.

Let's put it in simple terms. You pay an entry fee to play an entire season for the right to win some money. If you paid your entry fee and you didn't win any money, then you don't deserve any money if all of what was supposed to be paid out to the winners is eventually paid to the winners after legal action is taken.

From the court's perspective, it is not even clear if this is legal under Federal or Utah's law. Federal law does have some specific exceptions for FF, but states have all interpreted the rules different and some have made up their own rules. The court is not going to care who won a league or may not even care who paid an entry fee. The court is not in the business or enforcing illegal contracts.

If that is true, then it's up to the integrity of the league to disperse the money to the winners if they are refunded their entry fees. If they don't, then they are no better than Mike.

What if the winner of the league is Mike (which in my case is possible)?

 

[Steve Tasker]

I keep seeing people referencing FDIC-insured accounts as if that somehow means that the FF player deposits are safe from fraud. FDIC insured just means that the depositor is insured to a certain extent if the bank fails. The depositor is Mike (or Phenoms Enterprises LLC, or some other legal construct). If the bank fails, the FDIC doesn't pick through all of the dollars in Mike's account to determine who is owed what in fantasy football winnings....the FDIC just gives Mike the money.

These funds need to be held in escrow.