I don't now that he deliberately tried to scam people, but he screwed up big-time and doesn't have the means to make things right.
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Phenoms going under (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnW1970
- Start date
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
I accidentally bought a new house the other day. It happens. Someone has to pay, why should it be me?
It's seriously laughable how naive some of you are. This is how people like this get away with things. You just won't admit that people will steal money if it's sitting there, especially if they were a "nice guy." Hate to break the news to you, but con men are always the nicest people in the world when they can get something from you.
It's time for a reality check, there is zero chance that he paid 650k IN ADVANCE for a website. Nobody ever hires a job for 200k (or whatever he said) and then pays an extra 450k when it isn't even done yet. I mean you must believe anything if you swallow that one. Either he intentionally stole the money, or he lost it on something else (gambling, another business, whatever). It's simply impossible for the money to be gone for the reason he has given. I mean he actually says he's considering legal action. For what? How'd they get the 650k for something that doesn't even work? He sent him the money because they sent him a bill 450k over what was quoted, for something that doesn't work yet? Lmao.
Having met a number of scammers, they always do 3 things. 1-act like your best friend, 2-stall, stall, stall, 3-never admit they've done anything wrong in their lives. It's not like the movies where they admit things, they never do up to and including be in jail for life. He will stall for months and months, by which time 95% of the people will just give up. This is just textbook con man stuff.
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Hooper31
Footballguy
I might be wrong here, but from my perception you really want this to be a totally planned scam where nobody gets anything back. Why is that?
Further, its sort of weird that you've posted in this thread more than anyone else, but you have no dog in this fight if I remember correctly. Or did you have money in a Phenoms league? Please let me know if I'm wrong there.
I've been trying to follow this as I'm curious to see what happens long term. I played in one of his leagues about 10 years ago and used to banter a bit with Mike Z in the Free For All.
cstu
Footballguy
I want it to be an honest business mistake, but none of the story makes sense. He even gave you guys a lawyer's Gmail address. C'mon.
While I didn't get scammed here, I do have a lot of money at LeagueSafe. Mike needs to be punished so it discourages anyone else from doing this again.
It's seems that a lot of the people are like you and think that since they chatted online with him and he seemed nice that he can't possibly be a thief.
Hooper31
Footballguy
I didn't say that he can't possibly be a thief. Sure, he could be. There's varying degrees of doubt. None of us can know for sure. Every transaction that we make across the Internet is going to have a degree of suspicion until its final. EBay, Craigslist, etc. However, after you've watched a person/company build a brand over 10 years I don't think its too much to give the guy the benefit of the doubt until you learn more of the facts. If you think participants have been taken in an elaborate long-con, well, okay. I doubt that's the story. If you feel better calling me naive, again, okay. We'll just disagree.
I doubt stalling because of some theoretical 3 year limit has much to do with what is going on.
I have no idea what he did with the rest of the money. None.
But I do not see much reason to turn over the commissioner access to 3 contract leagues (so far) to Phenoms customers as part of an ongoing scam. Guilt maybe, but not attempting to hide "theft".
I also find the commentating of the Account Balance and Dynast Deposit (that never showed before) as more consistent with trying to facilitate partial payment/reimbursement than obfuscation. That would be better realized by going completely dark. Nor does it seem like it would really help avoid prosecution or civil liability.
This does not mean he is being honest with what he did with the missing money. Or that anyone will will actually GET any money.
I just find one explanation more credible for that information to appear: it would be necessary for partial payment.
I have no idea what he did with the rest of the money. None.
But I do not see much reason to turn over the commissioner access to 3 contract leagues (so far) to Phenoms customers as part of an ongoing scam. Guilt maybe, but not attempting to hide "theft".
I also find the commentating of the Account Balance and Dynast Deposit (that never showed before) as more consistent with trying to facilitate partial payment/reimbursement than obfuscation. That would be better realized by going completely dark. Nor does it seem like it would really help avoid prosecution or civil liability.
This does not mean he is being honest with what he did with the missing money. Or that anyone will will actually GET any money.
I just find one explanation more credible for that information to appear: it would be necessary for partial payment.
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hamhocs
Footballguy
It wasn't 40-60 percent. He said 20-40 percent. At the end of the day, a $90 first place prize for a $100 league is a crappy deal. Until I see otherwise, I'm assuming he's a bad dude and not a bad businessman. The only proof I have of anything is his gambling tendencies which he documented himself. That was a few years ago. Gambling is an addiction that gets worse over time. One day you're putting $10 on a game and it's not long until that $10 bet turns into $100. Mike was already to the point of losing thousands in a day. His words. You can make your own assumptions from that. I have mine.
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That is most likely the root of the problem. He kept losing money and was playing a shell game with other people's money until it got to the point there were no longer enough money to even do that.
Billy Ball Thorton
Footballguy
Dude, why do you have so much interest here. Your all over this thread. I suspect you have very close ties here to Mike. First defending him and now trying to gauge people feelings in an event of partial payment.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
No, the more likely "root of the problem" is excessive / out of control gambling. It's already documented the guy loves to play online poker. Perhaps he isn't very good at it. The smart direction to look is that one.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
really? I've seen my share of degenerate gamblers. They are pathetic and need help. If anyone wants to turn a blind eye to the gambling angle when it's well documented in his case, then knock yourself out.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I was pointing out that you were "disagreeing" with some one that was saying the same thing that you were. Read the bolded text.really? I've seen my share of degenerate gamblers. They are pathetic and need help. If anyone wants to turn a blind eye to the gambling angle when it's well documented in his case, then knock yourself out.
he'd still be a screw-up and criminally irresposible. He shouldn't have spent the money in the first place...
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I'd like to add something else to this discussion regarding all of you out there who commish leagues and distribute money (outside of leaguesafe). You will stay out of trouble if you keep the league funds separate from your personal funds. I keep all FF money in PayPal. I simply don't want to mix it with my money. I don't care if it's not earning anything, but I only commish 2 FF leagues and 1 baseball league. If I was running something larger, then perhaps another bank account altogether would be the right choice.
True or not, all we have is .....
He used our money for a personal benefit. Yes I look at the "software" as a personal expenditure. He was trying to increase his personal income by reducing costs. He was the only person with access to all of our money and he used it for a personal purchase. Replace "software" with whatever you'd like...car, boat, hooker rampage, wsop seat.... It doesn't matter.
Based on what we know, he spent our money sometime between August and now. Let's hypethetically say the software was completed. Our money is still gone without anything left to pay out the prize pool. He would not see any gains until next season.
Anyone defending him is blinded by their good heart. I'm guessing you have been scammed time and time again and don't even know it. The guy stole our money and knew exactly what he was doing when he did it. For those of you defending him, ask yourselves, what would you have done the moment the software guy said "hey, we need an extra 400-600 thousand dollars." The fact that the hard to believe software development story failed is irrelevant. It's all about the decision to dip into someone else's pocket when you needed to get out of a pickle.
A thief who steals food because he's hungry is still a thief.
He used our money for a personal benefit. Yes I look at the "software" as a personal expenditure. He was trying to increase his personal income by reducing costs. He was the only person with access to all of our money and he used it for a personal purchase. Replace "software" with whatever you'd like...car, boat, hooker rampage, wsop seat.... It doesn't matter.
Based on what we know, he spent our money sometime between August and now. Let's hypethetically say the software was completed. Our money is still gone without anything left to pay out the prize pool. He would not see any gains until next season.
Anyone defending him is blinded by their good heart. I'm guessing you have been scammed time and time again and don't even know it. The guy stole our money and knew exactly what he was doing when he did it. For those of you defending him, ask yourselves, what would you have done the moment the software guy said "hey, we need an extra 400-600 thousand dollars." The fact that the hard to believe software development story failed is irrelevant. It's all about the decision to dip into someone else's pocket when you needed to get out of a pickle.
A thief who steals food because he's hungry is still a thief.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Hooper31
Footballguy
Don't count on it. From my limited understanding attorneys have nothing to gain by giving their opinion and can potentially be held liable for giving their opinion. Again, very limited understanding.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Agreed, jon_mx is making logical points and he is getting bashed for no reason. Seems to happen in all threads larger than 2 pages. It probably says more about human nature than the Shark Pool specifically.
Dragon1952
Footballguy
Not sure how he can stall much when there is already an FBI investigation under way.cstu said:
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Let's not make a federal case out of this now boys ...
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
The legal questions I'd still like to know are
- Whether there is anything in this form of operation that protects prize money from other creditors?
- Is there any such "legal construct" as separate funds even if they are in separate bank accounts?
- If the LLC owes someone $XXX for whatever service or merchandise would that creditor's claim carry any greater or lesser weight than prize winners?
- Would a bankruptcy court dip into prize pools for web site developers?
- Are prize winners even creditors?
- What about future prize winners in contest that haven't concluded?
cstu
Footballguy
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Who's to say that Mike didn't have a separate account for his league deposits? What keeps you personally out of trouble is integrity and ethics, not because you have a separate account for league deposits....
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I've been reading this thread for weeks... Sorry to all of you as this sucks.
With that being said, odds are strongly in favor of a degenerate gambler who was basically using Phenoms this year as a pyramid scheme. It was dried up as the football season was finishing up and he was toast.
The website thing is complete bull####, 1% < this is a real story...
small chance he had just building a scam all along, but kinda doubt that.
80% chance of a loser gambler who ####ed a bunch of people
19% chance of a scam to steal from everyone
1% chance the website story is real
Good luck in your endeavors, I hope Mike gets what he deserves.
With that being said, odds are strongly in favor of a degenerate gambler who was basically using Phenoms this year as a pyramid scheme. It was dried up as the football season was finishing up and he was toast.
The website thing is complete bull####, 1% < this is a real story...
small chance he had just building a scam all along, but kinda doubt that.
80% chance of a loser gambler who ####ed a bunch of people
19% chance of a scam to steal from everyone
1% chance the website story is real
Good luck in your endeavors, I hope Mike gets what he deserves.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Soaring Eagle
Footballguy
Bump
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Soaring Eagle
Footballguy
any updates?
Short Corner
Footballguy
A pyramid scheme where he has to payout 4 months after receiving payment then go thru an 6-8 month dead period? Yeah that seems likely.
I think he had basketball and other leagues. So it was quite possible he kept robbing Peter to pay Paul. I am not sure I would call it a pyramid scheme, but he did take money. It was a viable business if he did not lose/spend money elsewhere.
Banger
Footballguy
also, in pyramids you build and build and get more people involved over time and then at some point you pull the plug. I'm sure most players started off with a team or two and then grew over time, told their friends, etc..
Max Power
Footballguy
https://www.utb.uscourts.gov/
Just checked the State of Utah's bankruptcy fillings again. Didn't see Mike.
Anyone receive a payout yet?
Just checked the State of Utah's bankruptcy fillings again. Didn't see Mike.
Anyone receive a payout yet?
If he hasn't filed bankruptcy then has anyone gone after him for money owed? I would suspect there are some people not too far away from Utah ( or in UT) that could file against him in small claims court if nothing else? I realize it wouldn't be worth chasing a guy half way across the country for $1000. Are there people owed huge sums of $$ in this or is it all people less than 5K or so?
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Not worried about getting money from Mike anymore. Can't squeeze blood from a rock. Whatever money he took is likely spent on whatever vice Mike has/had. And I'm not interested in his rehab. His reasons for his business failure. We all got our own problems. He has his own demons to conquer, I won't commiserate. The one comfort I have is the knowledge that the FBI investigation will come to a head, just when he thinks it's all behind him. And it'll hit him like a ton of bricks. Sleep well Mike, enjoy the silence.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
It looks like Phenoms filed for bankruptcy protection yesterday:
https://www.utb.uscourts.gov/
Case # 15-20303Filed 1-15-15
https://www.utb.uscourts.gov/
Case # 15-20303Filed 1-15-15
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
yep, complete liquidation and since the business doesn't have any assets than the fees that were collected (and are likely gone) very little chance anyone gets paid out.
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