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I took the question as implying that we were in control of a team and we could choose one WR to put on our team for one game. So every WR would be playing on the exact same team. Kind of like the old QB theoretical that asked "If you had to pick one QB to win a game for you, who would it be?"
I was the poll creator and my thought was who would you take without a team he's playing for. Sort of like you can pluck this guy out of the air and show up with him to play a Super Bowl with. The team is non-existent in this circumsatnce. Evaluate the WR based on how good he is. However, an interesting point has been raised that some would take Moss if they knew their QB was going to have a live arm and T.O if their QB had more of an average arm. I didn't account for that. But you can assume that all of these guys will be playing with the same team and QB.
I thought his nickname was "Big Play" Torry Holt ?
Maybe I'm wrong.
What if your half a brain was able to remember all the times that Owens screwed over his teammates and coaches? The risk is not worth the reward, especially when you consider how great these other WRs are in this discussion.
TO v. SSTO reception to target % / McNabb (Garcia) completion %2003: 54.8 / 57.42004: 61.1 / 64.02005: 51.1 / 59.1As you can see, TO's catch percentage always lags his QB's completion percentage.SS reception to target % / Delhomme completion %2003: 62.4 / 59.22004: 75 * / 58.22005: 68.7 / 60.2Here are the targets per game for the two of them.2003: TO 9.7, SS 8.8
I'm not making the case that Delhomme targets Smith more. I'm making the case that he's very good at completing passes to his #1 receiver, and his #1 receiver catches the ball very well. I'm not making the case that Owens isn't targetted, or catches the ball as well as Smith. I'm making the case that he's better at the wide receiver position than Smith. That's not a criticism of Smith, who I think is an elite receiver. I think it's just that Delhomme is freakishly good at finding the open man and hitting him in stride. In fact, I think he's got the ability to be one of the top QBs in the NFL if he can start spreading the ball around better, but for now, it seems like he's really good at hitting the guy who's open.
Can't believe we're still talking about this. Awesome.
So Delhomme is freakishly good at completing passes to Smith, but then his accuracy evaporates when he throws to Muhammy or the rest of his teammates. Remember that Moose caught only 58.5% of his targets when Delhomme's completion % was 58.2. Sorry, but the that myth has been busted. The reason Smith's reception % was so high wasn't Delhomme, it's because Smith can get open and catch the ball at an elite level.
Here we go again with myths that have taken on a life of there own.a) Smith's numbers for his last 16 games in 2003 had him at rough 100-1400-10. Delhomme had a tight leash when he assumed the starting role in 2003. Most FBG's disregarded the obvious evidence of Smith's last 16 games in 2003 and missed the mark in predicting his output in 2005. I argued this in depth last year and was mocked by most of the staff for predicting Smith's success in 2003.
I'm not arguing that Owen's isn't great. He does have some attributes that are superior to Smith. However the bottom line is that Smith is just more productive on a per target basis. The extent of this better production surprised me as I researched it. From a receiving standpoint, I'd put them on par together. When I include the threat of Smith running the back and returning punts, it adds up to wanting Smith more than Owen's for ONE game. Regarding your statement's above, Smith can even top that.- Delhomme's inability to start in this league without Smith on the roster.
Sorry that I showed up late to the game and brought some stats to back up an opinion. This seemed to derail this thread with the exception of Bfred who's not afraid to bring it and back it up. I'll try to get things back on track...Moss is the greatest evah, he is a freak. Moss may even be better than Reggie Bush. If you think otherwise, you've never watched a football game in your life and have been oVVned.Wow, this is getting good.
Sorry, but that's just a silly argument IMO. That's like saying you'd rather have Trent Dilfer in his prime over Dan Marino because Dilfer won a Super Bowl. Or perhaps you'd rather have Doug Williams over Marino? Ward's Super Bowl line: 5 receptions, 123 yards, 1 TD
No its good that you have. I was just commenting on the good discussion. Hey, I'm here to learn like everybody else. I had Smith as #3 myself and wasn't that certain of my choice, Moss.Sorry that I showed up late to the game and brought some stats to back up an opinion. This seemed to derail this thread with the exception of Bfred who's not afraid to bring it and back it up. I'll try to get things back on track...Moss is the greatest evah, he is a freak. Moss may even be better than Reggie Bush. If you think otherwise, you've never watched a football game in your life and have been oVVned.Wow, this is getting good.
Those statistics only prove that Smith catches a higher percentage of passes thrown his way, nothing more, nothing less. How about the fact that 8% of T.O.'s receptions are for TDs while only 5.6% of Smith's are for TDs? I would think that TDs would be a pretty important measure of productivity when evaluating an actual game.Furthermore, I think that yards per target is probably a better measure of production than just receptions per target. Smith bests Owens here 9.03 yards to 8.35 yards.
Maybe Delhomme just needs to get Smith more involved...Smith: 18 redzone ops, 7 TDs
I agree with everything in this paragraph except that this myth has been busted. You're correct, Smith gets open and catches the ball at an elite level. You're correct that Smith is better than Muhammad. And you're correct that he has a higher reception % than other receivers. All of those things make him a good receiver. Now put him in front of Jeff Garcia, and see what happens. I just don't see him being nearly as productive as he was with Delhomme, or as Owens was.
I'm not sure why you would suddenly decrease the sample size down to just this past season first of all. Secondly, doesn't limiting things to redzone ops just mean that T.O. has an even larger edge outside of the redzone in TDs per target? I'm not sure why you would shrink the data to just the redzone when the full numbers give a more complete picture. Once again, I think I'll take the guy that is more of a threat to score from anywhere. They're both great WRs and I'm sure that there are plenty of ways to bend and group stats to make the argument for either guy. I just wanted to demonstrate that just because you supplied those particular statistics to the debate, it did not signal the end of the debate. I just happen to prefer T.O.'s size. I believe that it makes him tougher to double team and benefits the running game more. Like I said previously though, I wouldn't blink an eye if I had to take Smith instead.Maybe Delhomme just needs to get Smith more involved...Smith: 18 redzone ops, 7 TDs
Owens: 10 redzone ops, 3 TDs
Once again, Smith is more productive than Owens. Seriously people, stop running with these preconceived ideas. Could the reason TO's TD to catch ratio is higher is the fact that he drops more passes and it's impossible to drop a TD catch after the fact.
The sample size isn't significant, but Reggie Brown caught 64.3% of his targets in common games with TO.
Yes, I think Smith has evolved, and is continuing to evolve, into an elite receiver. And his development path may be like Owens'. I agree that Smith was outstanding at the end of 2003, and that he's better than Muhammad. None of what you said contradicts the notion that Delhomme is making Smith's numbers better than they would be with a quarterback who wasn't as adept at hitting his #1 receiver.
Delhomme's inability to start without Smith on the roster? That's like claiming that David Patten is the only reason the Patriots won a Superbowl, because of Tom Brady's inability to start until he got there in 2001. Then they won a bunch of Superbowls, and then once he left, the team fell apart. By your argument, I'll say that Smith is at least as good as Patten. Or we can agree that while Delhomme wasn't drafted as a starter, Carolina paid him like one to get him there because it was clear he was emerging. And like a lot of good young QBs, he had good accuracy and good field vision, but maybe doesn't go through his progressions very quickly. Or maybe it's just that his other receivers haven't been very good.
I reduced the sample size to this season because we are talking about "NOW". Obviously TO wins hands down when discussing total careers. Last season both were performing at an elite level and had a full season under their belt with their current QB. Expanding from the redzone, Smith is still superior in finding paydirt.TO: 95 targets, 6 TDs - 6.5%
Well I think we were both exaggerating some of those points relative to Garcia and Delhomme. I will say the Smith has been a bigger impact player for the Panthers, but Philly was the better team beforehand if both players are removed from the equation.I do think your giving Delhomme too much credit for Smith's success. In 2003 Muhammy caught 54% of his targets, Smith caught 62.4%. Muhammy only improved to 58% when he was the focal point in 2004. Smith has keep that percentage over 60% for the last three years regardless of the circumstances. Although I'm not prepared to statiscally support it, I would contend that Garcia/McNabb are just as accurate if not more accurate the Delhomme. Smith's hands and in route adjustments make Delhomme look better then he is.
please explain how Randy Moss has been better in the playoffs than TO.BTW - your other stats are really menaingless; when TO came into the league he was not as dominant early on. Of course that says nothing about who the best player would be for one game today.
I seriously have no idea how you came up with those numbers. First of all, here are YPG and TDs per game for career (I used games started):
First off, the question asked IIRC, was if you could have either on your team (not for 1 game - but to deal with for an entire season) and at what point during the year was this questions asked (I honestly don't remember) Was it pre-suspension? pre-"rip my QB from the SuperBowl"?And for those spewing numbers that may put Moss slightly ahead of TO, keep in mind one thing:
Your stats don't make any sense either. The only way you could come up with the TO number is if you divided his 10535 career yards by his 128 "starts". But he's actually played in 142 games. So you're including the yards in those extra 14 games.
Moss: 85.3 .82
TO: 82.3 .79
Smith: 89.5 .52
Ward: 65.0 .48
Here is from last season per game started:
Moss: 67.0 .53
TO: 109 .86
Smith: 97.7 .75
Ward: 65 .73
So for career TO is 3rd in yards per game but there's nowhere near 30 yards lower per game or anything even remotely close to that. He's second in TDs per game just barely behind Moss and considerably ahead of both Smith and Ward. And last season isn't even a contest. He flat out dominated everyone until he was suspended and de-activated. As great as Smith was last year he would have finished a pretty decent second behind Owens projected over the entire season. And let's not forget that Owens was playing with a QB that had a sports hernia and other injuries for those 6 games he played as well.
So if you could please provide the method of how you came up with your stats, that would be much appreciated.
The question as I recall had to do with the ability of the players and nothing more. I'm not totally sure as it was preseason last year, before Moss was hurt and before TO was a complete cancer to Philly. You are absolutly fooling yourself if you think that Moss, even if just standing there not running, does not occupy 2 or 3 defenders when healthy. You are also fooling yourself if you think he still does not block down field at all. Did you not watch the Oak/NE game last year when NE put 3 guys on him dang near the whole game? Did you not watch the playoff game 2 yers ago when Moss not only palyed hurt vs. GB, but caught 2 TD passes and threw the key block on Minn 1st TD on the long pass the the RB? I could go on and on....
You're right, I hadn't thought of that. I could recalculate but I'm fairly certain that the rankings wouldn't change a whole lot.Your stats don't make any sense either. The only way you could come up with the TO number is if you divided his 10535 career yards by his 128 "starts". But he's actually played in 142 games. So you're including the yards in those extra 14 games.
Moss: 85.3 .82
TO: 82.3 .79
Smith: 89.5 .52
Ward: 65.0 .48
Here is from last season per game started:
Moss: 67.0 .53
TO: 109 .86
Smith: 97.7 .75
Ward: 65 .73
So for career TO is 3rd in yards per game but there's nowhere near 30 yards lower per game or anything even remotely close to that. He's second in TDs per game just barely behind Moss and considerably ahead of both Smith and Ward. And last season isn't even a contest. He flat out dominated everyone until he was suspended and de-activated. As great as Smith was last year he would have finished a pretty decent second behind Owens projected over the entire season. And let's not forget that Owens was playing with a QB that had a sports hernia and other injuries for those 6 games he played as well.
So if you could please provide the method of how you came up with your stats, that would be much appreciated.
