Planned Parenthood leaked video (1 Viewer)

[BigSteelThrill]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

Of whether a fetus is a person? Yes, there is.

It has been clearly determined that it is not a person.

 

[Henry Ford]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

Of whether a fetus is a person? Yes, there is.

It has been clearly determined that it is not a person.

That is a lie. It has been clearly determined in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others. And don't bring the US or the supreme court in here, unless you are willing to admit that you'd be staunchly against abortion if the supreme court overturned themselves and ruled that it was illegal.

I'm not going to suggest to you that there's been a definitive answer that it isn't a person at 23 weeks, but can we agree that it isn't a person 4 minutes after fertilization and then start discussing when it becomes one?

 

[jonessed]

I don't support killing living babies out of the womb.

Look, you think they're babies. Most of us who are pro-choice don't think they are babies. That's the crux of our disagreement, and we're never going to see eye to eye on this. Never. So why are we wasting time discussing the details of what Planned Parenthood does? You didn't need these so-called "revelations" to despise them. Of course you're going to despise them because you think they're abetting the murder of innocents. We don't. You find everything they do as horrific. We don't. What's to gain from further argument or discussion?

That's the weird thing. I'm not even pro-life. Killing a living baby outside of the womb is unconsciable though. How long does it have to live for to be called a baby? Minutes?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

Of whether a fetus is a person? Yes, there is.

It has been clearly determined that it is not a person.

That is a lie. It has been clearly determined in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others. And don't bring the US or the supreme court in here, unless you are willing to admit that you'd be staunchly against abortion if the supreme court overturned themselves and ruled that it was illegal.

When you get the law changed to grant person-hood to it then you will have a point.

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

We can tell far earlier than 16 weeks using blood tests.

There you go. 7-8 weeks in we can determine sex.

 

[CBusAlex]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

That is a lie. There's really no question in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others.

 

[shader]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

Of whether a fetus is a person? Yes, there is.

It has been clearly determined that it is not a person.

That is a lie. It has been clearly determined in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others. And don't bring the US or the supreme court in here, unless you are willing to admit that you'd be staunchly against abortion if the supreme court overturned themselves and ruled that it was illegal.

I'm not going to suggest to you that there's been a definitive answer that it isn't a person at 23 weeks, but can we agree that it isn't a person 4 minutes after fertilization and then start discussing when it becomes one?

Your life began at fertilization. That, in fact, is when every life begins. So, that's where the discussion begins and ends for me. I'll let you have fun making up completely subjective "personhood" arguments. I'd prefer they included an age that didn't involve crushing organs, arms and legs. That would be progress.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Here's something odd I've noticed in reading these discussions. The pro abortion folks are pretty determined to make clear *they* personally do not think these fetuses are more than tissue, these are not persons or children's or boys or girls. - Question: what if the doctors doing the aborting or doing the chopping up do actually view them as persons? Is that possible?

So?

There's no "so" here. I'm just asking if it's possible, or does that happen, do some or any abortion doctors think like that?

 

[matuski]

New video

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/30/call-it-research-not-business-planned-parenthood-doc-says-in-latest-sting-video/?intcmp=hpbt1

ouch. Anyone defending Planned Parenthood at this point...

They have been flat out awesome to several people I care about.

When they stop helping women that need it, I'll stop supporting them.

What does that have to do with anything?

If an organization did amazing things with the right hand and horrific things with the left hand, would that organization still be one to be defended?

What horrific things are they doing again?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Here's something odd I've noticed in reading these discussions. The pro abortion folks are pretty determined to make clear *they* personally do not think these fetuses are more than tissue, these are not persons or children's or boys or girls. - Question: what if the doctors doing the aborting or doing the chopping up do actually view them as persons? Is that possible?

So?

There's no "so" here. I'm just asking if it's possible, or does that happen, do some or any abortion doctors think like that?

Just trying to figure out why it matters what the doctor believes or not.

 

[matuski]

Here's something odd I've noticed in reading these discussions. The pro abortion folks are pretty determined to make clear *they* personally do not think these fetuses are more than tissue, these are not persons or children's or boys or girls. - Question: what if the doctors doing the aborting or doing the chopping up do actually view them as persons? Is that possible?

I've yet to meet someone that is pro abortion. Do we have them in this thread?

 

[Henry Ford]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

Of whether a fetus is a person? Yes, there is.

It has been clearly determined that it is not a person.

That is a lie. It has been clearly determined in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others. And don't bring the US or the supreme court in here, unless you are willing to admit that you'd be staunchly against abortion if the supreme court overturned themselves and ruled that it was illegal.

I'm not going to suggest to you that there's been a definitive answer that it isn't a person at 23 weeks, but can we agree that it isn't a person 4 minutes after fertilization and then start discussing when it becomes one?

Your life began at fertilization. That, in fact, is when every life begins. So, that's where the discussion begins and ends for me. I'll let you have fun making up completely subjective "personhood" arguments. I'd prefer they included an age that didn't involve crushing organs, arms and legs. That would be progress.

Dismissing as ridiculous and subjective the strongly held opinions, backed by science and philosophy, of pro-choice Americans is how your side of this debate got in the mess it's in.

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

That may be a "you" thing and not an "always" thing.

 

[shader]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

Of whether a fetus is a person? Yes, there is.

It has been clearly determined that it is not a person.

That is a lie. It has been clearly determined in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others. And don't bring the US or the supreme court in here, unless you are willing to admit that you'd be staunchly against abortion if the supreme court overturned themselves and ruled that it was illegal.

I'm not going to suggest to you that there's been a definitive answer that it isn't a person at 23 weeks, but can we agree that it isn't a person 4 minutes after fertilization and then start discussing when it becomes one?

Your life began at fertilization. That, in fact, is when every life begins. So, that's where the discussion begins and ends for me. I'll let you have fun making up completely subjective "personhood" arguments. I'd prefer they included an age that didn't involve crushing organs, arms and legs. That would be progress.

Dismissing as ridiculous and subjective the strongly held opinions, backed by science and philosophy, of pro-choice Americans is how your side of this debate got in the mess it's in.

LOL

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Call me an awful person but I just don't care what they do with the remains here.

I'm not some pro PP person here or anything, but this isn't even really hitting my outrage radar even if they are making straight cash off this.

You donate organs and you don't get any of the proceeds when you die, not sure how this is different.

About the only time you can get money for something in your body is when you are alive (blood, semen, eggs, ???) It's just one of the weird lines we've drawn as a society.

If I could make some money selling a relative's organs after they died I'd be all in. Put that #### on ebay and throw a party.

Different things going on. Then say you see a video of the doctor who did the surgery going to lunch with the parts buyer, and haggling over wine for your relative's organs. Maybe showing some respect and adhering to basic ethics and policies would be nice.

 

[matuski]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

He said "another boy" referring to the sex of the fetus.

Another quote out of context.

 

[matuski]

Shader wading into these debates is always something to behold.

 

[Henry Ford]

Dismissing as ridiculous and subjective the strongly held opinions, backed by science and philosophy, of pro-choice Americans is how your side of this debate got in the mess it's in.

LOL

Yes, just like that.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

That may be a "you" thing and not an "always" thing.

Oh I see I'm imputing it, it's not being connoted by the person saying it? Ok, next time you see a friend with a son, say, "So how's your male doing" and see how that goes. Or maybe if you have a friend who has a child you can get a balloon that says "It's a male!"

 

[CBusAlex]

Personally, I'm just surprised that Saints has like 100 posts in this thread and hasn't tried to bring it back around to Hillary yet.

 

[matuski]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

That may be a "you" thing and not an "always" thing.

Oh I see I'm imputing it, it's not being connoted by the person saying it? Ok, next time you see a friend with a son, say, "So how's your male doing" and see how that goes. Or maybe if you have a friend who has a child you can get a balloon that says "It's a male!"

You realize you have repeatedly misquoted this ... right?

 

[Henry Ford]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

That may be a "you" thing and not an "always" thing.

Oh I see I'm imputing it, it's not being connoted by the person saying it? Ok, next time you see a friend with a son, say, "So how's your male doing" and see how that goes. Or maybe if you have a friend who has a child you can get a balloon that says "It's a male!"

I bet if you think about bedside manner and whether people like doctors who speak in strictly clinical words, you can think of a reason that a doctor would say "it's a boy" rather than "it's potentially a male child, if we give it a few more months!" other than believing that a human being exists at conception and trying to convey that belief.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

He said "another boy" referring to the sex of the fetus.

Another quote out of context.

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally, I'm just surprised that Saints has like 100 posts in this thread and hasn't tried to bring it back around to Hillary yet.

Ok, ok, I'll try harder.

 

[shader]

Shader wading into these debates is always something to behold.

Arguing 101, attack the people you are debating with

 

[CBusAlex]

Shader wading into these debates is always something to behold.

Arguing 101, attack the people you are debating with

At what level do we learn to just respond with " "? Does Christo teach that course?

 

[matuski]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

He said "another boy" referring to the sex of the fetus.

Another quote out of context.

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

For the 3rd time.

The doctor is referring to the sex of the fetus.

So.. not.

 

[matuski]

Shader wading into these debates is always something to behold.

Arguing 101, attack the people you are debating with

I'm not attacking you, I am always happy to see you do your thing.

 

[shader]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

He said "another boy" referring to the sex of the fetus.

Another quote out of context.

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

For the 3rd time.

The doctor is referring to the sex of the fetus.

So.. not.

Where has he argued differently?

 

[matuski]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

He said "another boy" referring to the sex of the fetus.

Another quote out of context.

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

For the 3rd time.

The doctor is referring to the sex of the fetus.

So.. not.

Where has he argued differently?

seriously I love you.

 

[shader]

Henry that's some Jesuitical reasoning, I would love to hear you convince a jury that a "boy" is not a "child".

Okay.

When a fetus is at about 16 weeks, we can tell whether it's a male or female fetus. At that time, the doctor generally says "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." Abortion is legal generally until viability - until the fetus is a child as defined under the law (viability outside the womb) at approximately 24 weeks. So when we agree legally that "it's a boy" and "it's not yet a child" that's what we're talking about.

Henry the doctor says "boy" not "male." The former is personal, the latter clinical.

It's almost like you read my post.

The quote is the doctor saying he's a "boy." Yes, reading your post that connotes a belief in the person saying in her personal view he's a child.

He said "another boy" referring to the sex of the fetus.

Another quote out of context.

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

For the 3rd time.

The doctor is referring to the sex of the fetus.

So.. not.

Where has he argued differently?

seriously I love you.

I"m in the middle of a big downtime at one of our hospitals. Still finding time to express my extreme outrage. Perhaps I'm not reading this closely enough. I honestly can't tell what you and Saints are arguing over. I'll go back later and read it.

 

[Henry Ford]

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world, vis-a-vis when life begins, is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people. They're mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and they are - generally - the last people willing to provide a legal procedure that a lot of very reasonable people agree should be legal.

In performing this job, like any other, they use words. They use them clinically, and they use them colloquially. Not every expression is an expression of deep, underlying conflict in the soul of the person making the statement.

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. I understand that it upsets you, and I'm not telling you that I don't think you're allowed to be upset by something that bothers you. But it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

 

[shader]

Shader wading into these debates is always something to behold.

Arguing 101, attack the people you are debating with

At what level do we learn to just respond with " "? Does Christo teach that course?

Why yes he does. I've always enjoyed it.

 

[shader]

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world, vis-a-vis when life begins, is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people. They're mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and they are - generally - the last people willing to provide a legal procedure that a lot of very reasonable people agree should be legal.

In performing this job, like any other, they use words. They use them clinically, and they use them colloquially. Not every expression is an expression of deep, underlying conflict in the soul of the person making the statement.

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. I understand that it upsets you, and I'm not telling you that I don't think you're allowed to be upset by something that bothers you. But it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

The Nazi's were mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers too. I'm sure very clinical terms were used by Mengele when they did human experiments..

Dang it I wasn't going to use that analogy. I just couldn't resist.

 

[Henry Ford]

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world, vis-a-vis when life begins, is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people. They're mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and they are - generally - the last people willing to provide a legal procedure that a lot of very reasonable people agree should be legal.

In performing this job, like any other, they use words. They use them clinically, and they use them colloquially. Not every expression is an expression of deep, underlying conflict in the soul of the person making the statement.

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. I understand that it upsets you, and I'm not telling you that I don't think you're allowed to be upset by something that bothers you. But it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

The Nazi's were mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers too. I'm sure very clinical terms were used by Mengele when they did human experiments..

Dang it I wasn't going to use that analogy. I just couldn't resist.

I'm sure they were. Good thing we have these people using the non-clinical terms we've all been discussing, or we just couldn't think of another way to differentiate them from Nazis.

 

[joffer]

Personally, I'm just surprised that Saints has like 100 posts in this thread and hasn't tried to bring it back around to Hillary yet.

maybe she's pro abortion

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world, vis-a-vis when life begins, is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people. They're mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and they are - generally - the last people willing to provide a legal procedure that a lot of very reasonable people agree should be legal.

In performing this job, like any other, they use words. They use them clinically, and they use them colloquially. Not every expression is an expression of deep, underlying conflict in the soul of the person making the statement.

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. I understand that it upsets you, and I'm not telling you that I don't think you're allowed to be upset by something that bothers you. But it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

Henry, you overstate my beliefs. I'm just sticking to the facts. This conversation does not upset me, it does not rile me, I'm very happy here in my armchair universe conversing with someone with somewhat different, somewhat similar views. To me this is academic and it seems to me such a conversation should or could be held on a rational basis.

You've used a lot of words here but I've waded through them and arrived at this:

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. ...it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

You're a lawyer, does anyone really ever believe they're a "murderer"? There's always a reason, right?

Ok, great, it was an open question, you answered it. In my view, "boy/girl" is not clinical. It's hard to imagine a physician or scientist looking at "a petri dish of aborted remains" and saying that is a "boy" when the word "male" would be clinically apt.

And I guess my point to you was that most people, say on a jury, would think like myself.

Now I think you and others may be underestimating what some may think in the world. Are there those who believe that population control is a good thing? Yeah I know that's an ideology, it exists. I don't know that that physician is one, but those people are out there.

 

[Apple Jack]

Has anybody mentioned Hitler yet?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Personally, I'm just surprised that Saints has like 100 posts in this thread and hasn't tried to bring it back around to Hillary yet.

maybe she's pro abortion

Well she has said the videos are "very disturbing" and called for a Congressional investigation. But hey folks there's another thread for that. Actually two threads. No three, four... ok there are several other threads for that.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has anybody mentioned Hitler yet?

Lessee, Malthus, Sanger, Hillary.... yeah Hitler would be next. Whatcha got?

 

[Henry Ford]

Actually I put it in context. "a petri dish of aborted remains ... Another boy!"

Does the doctor think she is aborting boys or not?

Just try for a moment to think that these people aren't monsters. If you have to imagine they're other people, fine, but just try. I understand that their beliefs and philosophies and understanding of the world, vis-a-vis when life begins, is at odds with yours, but that's not the only characteristic of these people. They're mothers, and fathers, and sisters, and brothers, and they are - generally - the last people willing to provide a legal procedure that a lot of very reasonable people agree should be legal.

In performing this job, like any other, they use words. They use them clinically, and they use them colloquially. Not every expression is an expression of deep, underlying conflict in the soul of the person making the statement.

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. I understand that it upsets you, and I'm not telling you that I don't think you're allowed to be upset by something that bothers you. But it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

Henry, you overstate my beliefs. I'm just sticking to the facts. This conversation does not upset me, it does not rile me, I'm very happy here in my armchair universe conversing with someone with somewhat different, somewhat similar views. To me this is academic and it seems to me such a conversation should or could be held on a rational basis.

You've used a lot of words here but I've waded through them and arrived at this:

"another boy" is "just a cigar" as they say. The sex of the fetus is being provided, in a less-than-perfectly-clinical way. ...it doesn't mean that a clinician actually believes that she is a murderer when she says this.

You're a lawyer, does anyone really ever believe they're a "murderer"? There's always a reason, right?

Ok, great, it was an open question, you answered it. In my view, "boy/girl" is not clinical. It's hard to imagine a physician or scientist looking at "a petri dish of aborted remains" and saying that is a "boy" when the word "male" would be clinically apt.

And I guess my point to you was that most people, say on a jury, would think like myself.

Now I think you and others may be underestimating what some may think in the world. Are there those who believe that population control is a good thing? Yeah I know that's an ideology, it exists. I don't know that that physician is one, but those people are out there.

Yes. Lots of people believe they are murderers. Many people lie about it, but I'd say probably 90+% of the murderers out there believe that they're murderers. And a large number of people who aren't actually murderers think they are, too.

And you could be right about what people on a jury would think. I disagree, and I have some experience with juries, but not all of that experience is winning.

 

[Henry Ford]

Has anybody mentioned Hitler yet?

Close. We got Mengel.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

...Cecile Richards is president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

...While predictably these videos do not show anything illegal on Planned Parenthood’s part, medical and scientific conversations can be upsetting to hear, and I immediately apologized for the tone that was used, which did not reflect the compassion that people have come to know and expect from Planned Parenthood.

There, was that so difficult?

 

[General Malaise]

Henry Ford, I'd hire you to be my lawyer every day of the week and twice on Saturday.

 

[SIDA!]

Not humans, just boys and girls.

Of course it's human, it's not an elephant. The question is whether it's a human being or not. A person. Being male or female doesn't change the outcome of that discussion for either side of the debate.

There's really no question of that

That is a lie. There's really no question in YOUR eyes. But you can't speak for everyone. I fully disagree, as do millions of others.

No...millions of people lie to themselves so that they can look in the mirror and sleep at night.

Out of curiosity...when do YOU think this human material becomes a human being?

 

[tommyboy]

Far as I can tell, the only people on the planet defending PP are all in this thread

 

[timschochet]

Far as I can tell, the only people on the planet defending PP are all in this thread

While that would give me and some others here great pride and honor, it really isn't true.

 

[GreenNGold]

I don't understand the recent debate at all. Assuming the abortion has already happened, why wouldn't you want the fetus to be used for medical research? At least some good could come out of it then even if you oppose the abortion itself?

 

[matuski]

Far as I can tell, the only people on the planet defending PP are all in this thread

Only place you hear it being attacked is in the right wing nutjob corners of the world.

Not much defending needed.