Points per first down (1 Viewer)

[wgoldsph]

I'd like to argue for a rule that I believe we should all be adopting, and that is points per first down.  NFL offenses are built around getting to the first down marker and yet fantasy doesn't reward this at all.  Players are known third down targets, "chain movers", image the increased value to Cooper Kupp with an extra 89 points last year.  You can find cheap options like the steady hands of Jackobi Meyers to man your flex spot.  We should be doing everything to ensure that real NFL value is reflected in fantasy.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I nominated it, and my league voted it in for 2021.

Our QBs were a tiny bit heavy, so we only applied it to Ru/Re yards (which QB do get) 

We love it. It’s not much (.1/1) it just adds one more variable to root for. We always try to make it performance-based, and a 1 yard 1st down should be worth more than just the 1 yard.

Games are often decided by tenths of a point. Every .1 helps. 

 

[Desert_Power]

PPFD > PPR

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

PPFD > PPR

 

eeh….i wouldn’t want a trade-off. I could see maybe .5 PPR, + .5 if it’s a 1st down, if I’m setting up a league from scratch. 

 

[wgoldsph]

eeh….i wouldn’t want a trade-off. I could see maybe .5 PPR, + .5 if it’s a 1st down, if I’m setting up a league from scratch. 

This is exactly what I play.  It's a great system.

 

[IHEARTFF]

eeh….i wouldn’t want a trade-off. I could see maybe .5 PPR, + .5 if it’s a 1st down, if I’m setting up a league from scratch. 

Seems decent yeah

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

I lobbied for this in my .5 PPR league four years ago and they looked at me like I was from Mars.   Main concern was that the usual expert rankings and weekly grades weren't doing this and people were unwilling to do the research to determine who should get the bump and fade.

I do feel like it has gained some traction in the FF community in the past year or two.   Fully customized expert rankings helps.  I think it's definitely a fair conversation (and preferred) for any startup league.   I'm thinking I might be able to revisit the topic in a couple years.

Coming from 1/2 PPR, I'm not sure if .25 PPR + .25 PPF -or- .50 PPR + .50 PPF is the way to do it.   I'm thinking the more conservative .25 might be the best way to start out.   Either option beats the pants off of full PPR.   catching a ball for -3 yard loss = 0.7 points.    Making a clutch 1-yard run on 4th & 1 to keep the chains moving = 0.1 points.    Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

 Main concern was that the usual expert rankings and weekly grades weren't doing this and people were unwilling to do the research to determine who should get the bump and fade.

I died inside reading this sentence. 

Why's everyone so gosh darn lazy?

 

 

[BoltBacker]

I've always thought this should be a rule.

Said it for years but I'll say it again. With computerized scoring we should really be using contextual scoring in FF imo. If you score a TD in a game where both teams are +/-5 points it's a HUGE play. If you score a TD in a game at the end of the 4th quarter when one team is up by 20+ points it just doesn't mean as much. 

There might be nothing I hate in football as much as, "Well that makes projections harder" argument. 

 

[BoltBacker]

I died inside reading this sentence. 

Why's everyone so gosh darn lazy?

 

I've never understood this line of thinking. 

It kind of reminds me of NFL "analysts" that get completely bent out of shape because there will be a week #18 to the NFL season and they will have to "work" an extra week out of the year. JFC. Just be glad that you are a remora on the NFL multi-billion dollar shark.

It's like any change that requires an inkling of extra thought or effort must be the worst outcome possible and should be avoided at all costs.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

I've never understood this line of thinking. 

It kind of reminds me of NFL "analysts" that get completely bent out of shape because there will be a week #18 to the NFL season and they will have to "work" an extra week out of the year. JFC. Just be glad that you are a remora on the NFL multi-billion dollar shark.

It's like any change that requires an inkling of extra thought or effort must be the worst outcome possible and should be avoided at all costs.

I'm glad that all of us posting in FF forums in March are in total agreement.      I just need to work on the fringe lunatic sector of my league that sets fantasy football aside until July.

One consideration with PPF, do you give anything to QBs for passing first downs?   Otherwise, you're kind of making the running QB that much more of a fantasy cheat code, right?   There's probably not a massive number of rushing first downs for the best rushing QBs, but if the main idea of PPF is to better reflect what's going on in the game, I'm not sure that pumping more value into rushing QBs relative to less mobile QBs is ideal, considering it's already such a massive advantage in fantasy.   So, if it's .25 PPF for rushing/receiving FDs, maybe a token .10 PPF should go to passing FDs just to keep things balanced.   Hate to say it, but you probably have to take it one step further and make sure the explosive play bonus is there (if it isn't already), or perhaps even consider beefing it up to ensure that a dink and dunk QB (or RB/WR) isn't gaining an advantage on those players that do their damage on less frequent explosive plays.

It's kind of delicate ecosystem for people that stress out about keeping things balanced.      

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I've never understood this line of thinking. 

It kind of reminds me of NFL "analysts" that get completely bent out of shape because there will be a week #18 to the NFL season and they will have to "work" an extra week out of the year. JFC. Just be glad that you are a remora on the NFL multi-billion dollar shark.

It's like any change that requires an inkling of extra thought or effort must be the worst outcome possible and should be avoided at all costs.

We have very little turnover in my league over the last ~16 years. One such departure once accused me and another league member of “trying to rig the league so we’d have an advantage” when we (Independant of each other) proposed scoring changes.

Both the proposals were minor tweaks to balance scoring between QB/WR/RB in some way, and to reward players for metrics since our league site added them.

His paranoiac outburst was seemingly easier to digest than having to do a little extra work on his rankings. 

And out the door he went, quit in a rage, easily replaced by a dude who’s been with us 10 years.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

One consideration with PPF, do you give anything to QBs for passing first downs?   

no, because in our system the QB was already scoring a bit heavy (.1/2, 6 pt TD, .1/3 completions)

- giving PPC and PPF would make QBs far too inflated. 

Otherwise, you're kind of making the running QB that much more of a fantasy cheat code, right?   

No - it’s all about balance between positions. And since implemented I’ve noticed that WR see the largest bump on average.  RBs may get 4-5 1sts in a game. A WR1 with 9 receptions could easily have 7 1sts. 

Anyway, I haven’t seen it as an issue - it actually brought WR/RB/TE into balance with QB in my league scoring. Context is important. As mentioned, we only do .1/1 for a 1st. It’s really to reward that 1 yard plunge for a critical 1st down (.2 points) vs a CEH running up his OG’s back for a 1 yard gain (.1 point). We felt these two things shouldn’t be scored equally because one is better. 

If it looks like PPF is going to inflate a position, It’s pretty easy to make other corresponding changes to maintain that balance. 

 

[BoltBacker]

 Otherwise, you're kind of making the running QB that much more of a fantasy cheat code, right?   

I actually agree with you that running QB's that register more first downs with their legs is a cheat code. My only disagreement is that it's not just a fantasy cheat code.... it's a cheat code in football, not just fantasy football.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

I actually agree with you that running QB's that register more first downs with their legs is a cheat code. My only disagreement is that it's not just a fantasy cheat code.... it's a cheat code in football, not just fantasy football.

It's a fair point on a question that's probably worth its own thread.   Is the fantasy scoring advantage for mobile QBs commensurate with the real world advantage in NFL games.   If you take Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, you'd probably say yes.   When you look at Jalen Hurts as a top 10 fantasy QB last season, I'd probably be more inclined to say it's too much.   However, there was definitely some Blake Bortles factor there with respect to crushing in garbage time.

Regardless, the PPF factor probably isn't going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back if you're otherwise content with the scoring.   But if you're going .5 PPF, it's probably worth noting that it's another 2 points per game you're putting on these guys that Stafford and Brady aren't seeing.   

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I actually agree with you that running QB's that register more first downs with their legs is a cheat code. My only disagreement is that it's not just a fantasy cheat code.... it's a cheat code in football, not just fantasy football.

And those QB are already a FF cheat code. If LJax runs 35 yards, in my league he’s gonna get 3.5 points for the run and .1 for the 1st down.

the .1 is hardly significant there. 

 

[zed2283]

Makes a lot more sense than PPR, which is dumb.

 

[King of the Jungle]

There are positives and negatives to all scoring systems. Are the first 7 yards less important than the last 3…hard to say. I get the achievement factor of the first down but the running back who had two hard earned runs for 4 yards should not be discounted greatly compared to the 2 yard out route by the slot receiver. I could see implementing in fractional scoring where each yard is fractionally rewarded and maybe a fraction based numeric reward for first down. Tough to find the perfect system.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

There are positives and negatives to all scoring systems. Are the first 7 yards less important than the last 3…hard to say. I get the achievement factor of the first down but the running back who had two hard earned runs for 4 yards should not be discounted greatly compared to the 2 yard out route by the slot receiver. I could see implementing in fractional scoring where each yard is fractionally rewarded and maybe a fraction based numeric reward for first down. Tough to find the perfect system.

On 3rd & 9, I would say so.   To me, PFF helps level the score for those 4 yards in a cloud of dust RBs.   Some of those 4 yards gains are on 1st & 10, and no, that's not worthy of the bonus.   But when it happens on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th & 2 and it moves the chains?   I like that they're now getting a small bonus they normally wouldn't get.   It helps level the score with pass-catching RBs.   An NFL offense succeeds by gaining yards and moving the chains.   As a RB, it shouldn't matter how you go about doing that.   Catching a ball is a means to that end, but so is trucking a guy after taking the handoff.

I should say that in a .5 PPR, I prefer taking it down to .25 PPR and adding the .25 PPF.   I like that a WR catching a 7-yard pass on 2nd & 20 is no longer automatically getting an auto .5 bonus, now it's just the .25.    If that same WR catches a 2-yard out for the first down, now I feel they've earned their half-point bonus for the first down reception.  

0.5 PPR:  1.2 points vs 0.7 points

.25+.25 PPF hybrid:  0.95 points vs 0.7 points  -- more in line with the actual contribution on the field