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Potential NFL competitive integrity issue brought to light in Rams @ Saints game (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Doug B
- Start date
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I'm having a real hard time with this one.
I mean, I get your point, but IMO he did make a determination, and then he decided to not throw a flag for two different penalties.
Ironically, before the game some Rams fans were lobbying the league to have him removed. Team was 0-8 in his games prior to today.
I'm pretty sure we'll never find out what he was thinking. IIRC, league issues statements about whether a call was correct or not, but they don't allow individual officials to comment.
Only part I disagree with is the last sentence. We do know what would have happened. Saints would have run the clock down to almost zero and then kicked a FG.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
JaxBill
Footballguy
I didn't agree with the overturn of the first one but that's not my point.
My point was that the second game turned heavily on reviews and penalties. Heck one KC drive was mostly penalty yardage.
It seems like the NFL has more games where officiating is pivotal. Watching at home, whenever there's a big play, I'm looking for a late flag.
Sure thing. I really do feel awful for you guys. Like I said, it's the worst, most consequential blown call since Don Denkinger. I can think of some really painful losses for my teams over the years, but I don't think any of them compare to what you've just gone through, especially because this is a team that was on track to win a Super Bowl.
I guess, but the reviews were just a function of a lot of really close calls. BTW, forgot the other terrible officiating was the non-call of OPI on the screen to Watkins that set up the last KC TD. Oh and this.
On this we are in agreement. It's like a chicken/egg thing between the players constantly pleading for it and the refs constantly calling it.
JaxBill
Footballguy
One last kvetching about officiating-
All season we heard about player safety and protecting players. When the infamous 3rd down noncall happened i thought "He's definitely early and it's a shot to the head. Even if they rule this uncatchable it has to be defenseless receiver or helmet to helmet."
Then in 2nd game Edelman took a high shot on the INT return. Another NE WR (Dorsett?) took a hit to the head when going up between 2 defenders.
It seems like player safety has gone totally out the window in playoffs for everybody but QB
All season we heard about player safety and protecting players. When the infamous 3rd down noncall happened i thought "He's definitely early and it's a shot to the head. Even if they rule this uncatchable it has to be defenseless receiver or helmet to helmet."
Then in 2nd game Edelman took a high shot on the INT return. Another NE WR (Dorsett?) took a hit to the head when going up between 2 defenders.
It seems like player safety has gone totally out the window in playoffs for everybody but QB
Catbird
Footballguy
Instead, its about your paranoid belief that instead of the ref blowing a call, this was a purposeful attack on the poor Saints that you imagine everyone hates (apparently including the ref who didn't bother to even shade a call against them through the rest of the game - maybe because he knew this opportunity to get them was coming)?.
It was just a blown call. Unfortunate, but they happen all the time. I completely agree that this was a most unfortunate time and blatant miss, but there is no evidence to support your assault on the integrity of the league.
And I really like the Saints
Tanner9919
Footballguy
dude how many games was Payton on the good end of the Referee stick? in the end it all works out as a wash anyways. I dont hear a coach say 'yeah we got away with one there, the refs screwed up we shoulda lost but somehow we won!'.
you play men's softball? I've been doing it for 30+ years. it's always the same thing , you win with some iffy calls, you lose with some iffy calls. but it's largely a 50/50 split..
if you want to ask about integrity, ask how/why it is that seemingly every time the Pats get in to OT, they ALWAYS win the coin toss, score a TD and go home.how do they always win the coin toss? or , should I ask Kraft and his paid refs?
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
Lolif you want to ask about integrity, ask how/why it is that seemingly every time the Pats get in to OT, they ALWAYS win the coin toss, score a TD and go home.how do they always win the coin toss? or , should I ask Kraft and his paid refs?
Doug B
Footballguy
Not relevant to what I'm discussing here. Tie-ins to past and future events aren't germane -- calling the obvious calls correctly in the moment is the issue. IMHO, what happened yesterday is very unlike and not at all comparable to a "stuff happens" ordinary 'bad call'.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
I had no real rooting interest in the outcome of either game, and have no real interest in debating what happened. But you had four great teams and two great games yesterday, and the story of the weekend is going to be ####ty officiating, which is a real shame for the game. 
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/20/nfl-rams-saints-bill-vinovich-pass-interference-call/
he sucked for both teams
he sucked for both teams
Doug B
Footballguy
And it is possible for the league to do a lot better and clean up bad officiating. As it looks now, though ... there's no impetus to do so.
Bad calls don't have to be "part of the game" unless that's what we settle for.
ComfortablyNumb
Footballguy
I thought this thread might be discussing how the NFL can allow any home team to have such an enormous home field advantage as the Saints had yesterday. How is it competitive integrity when the visiting team can't even hear themselves in the huddle, or hear the snap count, let alone have any possibility of calling an audible at the line? I know, the Saints "earned" the home field advantage, but does it not tilt the competitive integrity balance a bit too far?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
It was a blown call plain and simple. If it happened in the first quarter there is not much fuss but it was the pivotal play of the game in crunch time. With so many questionable PI calls this one should have been an easy one. I really don`t know how the ref could have missed this one as it was not even close.
Saints should be in the Super Bowl.
Saints should be in the Super Bowl.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Doesn't change the point: Get the obvious call correct in the moment. Don't have "regular season" reffing and "playoffs reffing". Don't have "helmet-to-helmet matters today, but not tomorrow". Just apply the rule book when there's no question about what you just saw from up close.https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/20/nfl-rams-saints-bill-vinovich-pass-interference-call/
he sucked for both teams
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I'm sorry, but yes they do. It's simply the human element that exists in human activity - with a dose of universal randomness thrown in for good measure.
We don't want space shuttles to blow up upon launch or bridges to fall down during rush hour - but they just do sometimes.
A referee missed a call yesterday. It's a big deal because of the timing. If the same thing happened in the second quarter of week 3 we'd grumble about it but accept that sometimes things happen and call off the Congressional investigation.
To expect we can get to a place where mistakes aren't made is simply unreasonable.
Doug B
Footballguy
Not "where mistakes aren't made" -- rather, "where a certain type of mistake isn't made".
On top of that, as I said upthread -- I don't believe it was a mistake in the sense of the SJ or BJ not seeing the play or having a bad angle.
Doug B
Footballguy
leave a whisper
Footballguy
IMO both teams headed to the SB took advantage of a weak & broken NFL
not sure how to fix it, but that no call needed to be corrected on the field ...... also, both teams must have the ball in OT at least once
not sure how to fix it, but that no call needed to be corrected on the field ...... also, both teams must have the ball in OT at least once
JohnnyU
Footballguy
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95% of you killed the impetus so that's what you settled for. We could have had full time refs.
I like this idea. Would make the coin flips interesting during the regular season. Do you want the ball first and access to the most time to score or do you want it second with the knowledge of what you have to do?
bostonfred
Footballguy
The saints have gotten jobbed in back to back years at the end of the game - once by diggs and then this year. I get it. They have every right to be mad about this non call.
But the simple fact is they threw the ball twice when they needed to run out clock, they couldn't stop a field goal drive, then they got the ball back with a chance to win and threw an interception, and then they didn't stop another field goal drive.
I feel bad seeing a team and their fans get this upset about an obvious missed call but it didn't decide the game. It could have, and should have, given them a great chance to win.
Every single game has crazy calls or weird bounces. The chiefs have a completely legitimate case about that roughing the passer call. That was garbage. The Patriots would be pretty upset if the longest off sides call in history had resulted in a game ending chiefs touchdown. Chiefs fans are upset with Dee Ford for lining up offside. Patriots fans didn't particularly like the close offensive pass interference and defensive pass interference calls that killed one drive and put the other at the 1. The Patriots had 3 straight reviews go their way. Which also means the referees originally called things incorrectly against them. The officiating wasn't perfect but you have to live with what you get.
That doesn't take the sting out today, but as long as human errors are part of the game, overcoming those human errors will be part of winning. The saints didn't.
But the simple fact is they threw the ball twice when they needed to run out clock, they couldn't stop a field goal drive, then they got the ball back with a chance to win and threw an interception, and then they didn't stop another field goal drive.
I feel bad seeing a team and their fans get this upset about an obvious missed call but it didn't decide the game. It could have, and should have, given them a great chance to win.
Every single game has crazy calls or weird bounces. The chiefs have a completely legitimate case about that roughing the passer call. That was garbage. The Patriots would be pretty upset if the longest off sides call in history had resulted in a game ending chiefs touchdown. Chiefs fans are upset with Dee Ford for lining up offside. Patriots fans didn't particularly like the close offensive pass interference and defensive pass interference calls that killed one drive and put the other at the 1. The Patriots had 3 straight reviews go their way. Which also means the referees originally called things incorrectly against them. The officiating wasn't perfect but you have to live with what you get.
That doesn't take the sting out today, but as long as human errors are part of the game, overcoming those human errors will be part of winning. The saints didn't.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Refs make mistakes. I don't think all the mistakes in the two games yesterday are really an issue. There were a lot. It's just stupid football. Meaningless in reality. They need to get rid of reviews altogether so the games don't get waddled down to zebra conferences to give us the enlightening info that the game clock is right.
The personal foul on the Brady shoulder hit was probably the worst call of the day. Especially given the point in the game. It really hurt KC. And of course that wasn't even reviewable. So what's the point if reviews can only fix some things and not others.
Unless the NFL determines the booth can review everything (and take the challenge flag away), it's stupid to review anything. They miss holding calls all the time, both called and uncalled. They miss illegal picks all the time. The call Personal Fouls on the retaliator all the time.
Make the booth have full power or get rid of reviews altogether.
The personal foul on the Brady shoulder hit was probably the worst call of the day. Especially given the point in the game. It really hurt KC. And of course that wasn't even reviewable. So what's the point if reviews can only fix some things and not others.
Unless the NFL determines the booth can review everything (and take the challenge flag away), it's stupid to review anything. They miss holding calls all the time, both called and uncalled. They miss illegal picks all the time. The call Personal Fouls on the retaliator all the time.
Make the booth have full power or get rid of reviews altogether.
Doug B
Footballguy
In a different conversation, your points are granted. But what does any of this have to do with getting the obvious call right in the moment? It's an issue completely divorced from events that came before and events that came after.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I think that watering it down to "stupid football" and "meaningless in reality" is far from accurate. You are giving zero value to the massive economic impact that a team making the Super Bowl has in regards to their communities. We are talking tens of millions of dollars of merchandising, entertainment, and dining dollars lost by the team, players, corner shops, sports bars, restaurants in a community. We are also talking about the massive amount of money that an egregious call could cause in the world of sports betting. There is no easy answer to the problem--and yes--mistakes are always made--but they have far more impact than what you are characterizing them as having.
Ref's could be lifting weights and doing fitness rather than sitting in a office all week. Much more likely to be in position to make a call.
Ref's could be studying film or sitting in classes discussing rules during the week rather than preparing for a court case.
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Perhaps, but I highly doubt referees are routinely out of position because they are out of shape. I just don’t know if the things you mentioned make a difference on Sundays.
This thread needs the old tin foil hat emoji.
The Saints got a bad call happen to them, so did KC, so did the Rams, so did New England. They just occurred at different times of the game, but each effected the outcome. It happens, refs are only human. Nobody feels worse or is more upset about a missed call than the officials themselves.
The refs didn't make the Rams drive down field to sent the game to OT, the refs didn't make Brees throw an INT, the refs didn't make KC run a dopey defense. There is no conspiracy to get LA in the Super Bowl(that's preposterous) and there is zero competitive integrity issues at hand.
Sorry Saints, and Chiefs fans to a lesser extent, your teams lost. They both had plenty of chances to win after the bad calls, and blew it. Get over it. The right 2 teams are in the Super Bowl, and hopefully we won't have to spend most of the next 2 weeks talking about this.
The Saints got a bad call happen to them, so did KC, so did the Rams, so did New England. They just occurred at different times of the game, but each effected the outcome. It happens, refs are only human. Nobody feels worse or is more upset about a missed call than the officials themselves.
The refs didn't make the Rams drive down field to sent the game to OT, the refs didn't make Brees throw an INT, the refs didn't make KC run a dopey defense. There is no conspiracy to get LA in the Super Bowl(that's preposterous) and there is zero competitive integrity issues at hand.
Sorry Saints, and Chiefs fans to a lesser extent, your teams lost. They both had plenty of chances to win after the bad calls, and blew it. Get over it. The right 2 teams are in the Super Bowl, and hopefully we won't have to spend most of the next 2 weeks talking about this.
Doug B
Footballguy
travdogg ... none of that is relevant to the point of this thread. Is it really that difficult to narrow down the discussion to one specific instance of whistle-swallowing, and questioning about same? Not the game's outcome, not the calls before and the chances after ... but the one singular event.
Doug B
Footballguy
For this particular play, two officials were actually in perfect position to make the call.
I see people are really misunderstanding what happened. It wasn't a call that was hard to make out, hard to see, occluded by bodies, or anything like that. It wasn't officials being out of position. It was:
1) an official (or two) seeing a play,
2) recognizing one or both of (a) pass interference and/or (b) helmet-to-helmet contact,
3) and then making a conscious decision not to apply the rules of the game in the moment
The DB, Nickell Robey-Coleman, admitted to purposefully laying out Tommy Lee Lewis because he was beaten on the play. He admitted to being prepared to accept the penalty that he was pretty sure was coming. So, in the moment, the official's decision not to throw the flag rewarded a flagrant, obvious, and out-in-the-open breach of the rules.
Do the rules even matter? Fans and observers, in aggregate, don't seem to think so in a lot of cases -- "part of the game", "human element", and so on.
I don't understand your point. Nobody is arguing it shouldn't have been a flag, but you seem to be arguing that its the only play that mattered in the entire game, and was the only missed call that happened, and that the refs may have done it on purpose(maybe someone else made that argument) so if this thread only exists to talk about that play being a bad call, then I really don't know why this thread exists, other than sour grapes.
Doug B
Footballguy
It's not outrage. It's just me wondering why getting obvious calls correct is seen as unimportant. I see that your answer is "that's just how the game is" and "we've seen it all before**".
So ... when we watch an NFL game, what are we really watching?
...
** Disagree about seeing this degree of whistle-swallowing before, BTW. There was nowhere to hide here -- the foul was committed out in the open, the ball was there, all eyes were on the two players involved.
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