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Pro Bowl Rosters Announced (1 Viewer)

Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
Peters stinks. He gets dominated by speed rushers and he is a feeble run blocker. I am a Bills fan and the team would have been better had they cut him when held out. Not only is he not a Pro Bowler he is not even a good O Lineman.
 
my question marks:

NFC:

WR-Steve Smith didn't have a Pro Bowl year.......Calvin Johnson CERTAINLY DID (note that TO didn't make it!)
What are you smoking??? Smith leads him in recpt and yardage in two fewer games. That's 20 more yards per game. God created Steve Smith in his image and then thought about some playmates for him.
First of all, CJ plays for the Lions and did incredible in spite of being on an 0-14 team where the offense had nearly 5 different QBs during the year. 2nd: CJ didn't have the benefit of a running game and the other team could try to stop him. CAR 4th in rushing....DET 31st

and lastly, Why is it that S.Smith missed those 2 games?????????

Answer: Because he was a punk and cheap shot'd one of his OWN teammates. IMO, this clearly should have been the deciding factor for choosing CJ over Steve Smith.
1. Has no bearing. Being behind every game leads itself to more passing and garbage time stats. Being the only talent on the Lions means he will automatically get a lionshare of the looks.2. CAR's rushing game effectiveness shortens the game and reduces the need to pass.

3. Lucas thought he was being a bad ### monster. He should have checked the closet for Steve Smith first. Heck, Smith should have punked him twice. Once for not giving him the proper respect and a second time for the abortion of a performance at CB this year. Seriously, he served his time and still put up better numbers this year.

 
Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
Peters stinks. He gets dominated by speed rushers and he is a feeble run blocker. I am a Bills fan and the team would have been better had they cut him when held out. Not only is he not a Pro Bowler he is not even a good O Lineman.
Agreed. Only reason Peters is in over Long is that Peters made it last yr & Long is a rookie. IMO, Peters is the least deserving player on either side. He reported fat & out of shape after his holdout & was a liability all year. Rewatch the play where Losman fumbled to lose game last week & see who the DE blows around to track down Losman. Enough said.
 
Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
Titans should have had both T's in-combined-->4 penalties, 0 holding, 0 sacks allowed, led the way for the 5th best rushing offense. Team has best record in NFL. Really makes you wonder what more voters could want.
 
Another snub I just noticed that seems awful bad to me, Josh Cribbs not making it as the AFC Special Teamer.
That's two you got wrong in the same thread.McKelvin & Washington both had better years; Josh missed a couple games and his averages are way down from last year (when he deservedly went).
Reading comprehension down? See the bold portion.
No he read that right and so did you - Cribbs had an abbreviated year - Washington had an outstanding year on Special teams as did McLovin. I would have put Cribbs in over McLovin, but I don't think this is that out of whack.
Nope, he's right, we both read it wrong.Cribbs is pretty unique in that he is not only a great return guy, but he's an awesome gunner. 23 special teams tackles last year, 22 this year. That is still less than Brendon Ayanbadejo (26), who is going for the third year in a row. Cribbs is the alternate for both returner and gunner - might be a first there.

 
Another snub I just noticed that seems awful bad to me, Josh Cribbs not making it as the AFC Special Teamer.
That's two you got wrong in the same thread.McKelvin & Washington both had better years; Josh missed a couple games and his averages are way down from last year (when he deservedly went).
Reading comprehension down? See the bold portion.
No he read that right and so did you - Cribbs had an abbreviated year - Washington had an outstanding year on Special teams as did McLovin. I would have put Cribbs in over McLovin, but I don't think this is that out of whack.
Nope, he's right, we both read it wrong.Cribbs is pretty unique in that he is not only a great return guy, but he's an awesome gunner. 23 special teams tackles last year, 22 this year. That is still less than Brendon Ayanbadejo (26), who is going for the third year in a row. Cribbs is the alternate for both returner and gunner - might be a first there.
Well maybe my comprehension IS down b/c Washington went as a special teamer. So what am I missing?
 
Let's see

1) Favre had to be in the game as Reebok certainly already had like 1 million or so Favre Pro-Bowl jerseys made ready to ship for Christmas.

2) Shayne Graham got totally ripped off. I mean how many other guys in the league can say they accounted for 100% of their team's offense in THREE different games this year?!?

3) Why aren't holders recognized? Holders are people too!

-QG

 
Another snub I just noticed that seems awful bad to me, Josh Cribbs not making it as the AFC Special Teamer.
That's two you got wrong in the same thread.McKelvin & Washington both had better years; Josh missed a couple games and his averages are way down from last year (when he deservedly went).
Reading comprehension down? See the bold portion.
No he read that right and so did you - Cribbs had an abbreviated year - Washington had an outstanding year on Special teams as did McLovin. I would have put Cribbs in over McLovin, but I don't think this is that out of whack.
Nope, he's right, we both read it wrong.Cribbs is pretty unique in that he is not only a great return guy, but he's an awesome gunner. 23 special teams tackles last year, 22 this year. That is still less than Brendon Ayanbadejo (26), who is going for the third year in a row. Cribbs is the alternate for both returner and gunner - might be a first there.
Well maybe my comprehension IS down b/c Washington went as a special teamer. So what am I missing?
Leon Washington made the AFC pro bowl as a kick returner; Brendon Ayanbadejo made it as a special teamer.
 
Getting snubbed is no big deal...half the guys named won't play anyway.

And I can't remember the last time I even watched the game itself.

 
RBM said:
=Smackdown= said:
Native said:
Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
:lmao: I have a feeling Jake will make many trips - he's getting the rookie snub here.Ronnie Brown getting in is a joke

Favre over Pennington is a bigger joke.
Pennington? Pennington? How do you mention him before RiversAnd Ryan Clady has been just as good if not better than Long
Clady should have gotten in. Pennington has done a remarkable job this year, he's been better than Rivers IMO. We all know he doesn't have a cannon and Miami doesn't throw much, but he's been extremely effective and is a key reason the Dolphins are sniffing the playoffs. Rivers, despite leading one of the most talented teams in the league has lead his team to a 6-8 record in a horrible division.

Penny, despite playing in one of the best divisions, has led his team to sniffing the playoffs.

I wouldn't put either in, as I would have gone with Ben, but IMO it's Ben-Pennington-Rivers-Favre.

 
RBM said:
=Smackdown= said:
Native said:
Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
:goodposting: I have a feeling Jake will make many trips - he's getting the rookie snub here.Ronnie Brown getting in is a joke

Favre over Pennington is a bigger joke.
Pennington? Pennington? How do you mention him before RiversAnd Ryan Clady has been just as good if not better than Long
Clady should have gotten in. Pennington has done a remarkable job this year, he's been better than Rivers IMO. We all know he doesn't have a cannon and Miami doesn't throw much, but he's been extremely effective and is a key reason the Dolphins are sniffing the playoffs. Rivers, despite leading one of the most talented teams in the league has lead his team to a 6-8 record in a horrible division.

Penny, despite playing in one of the best divisions, has led his team to sniffing the playoffs.

I wouldn't put either in, as I would have gone with Ben, but IMO it's Ben-Pennington-Rivers-Favre.
But that record is not all on Rivers. He cannot help that Tomlinson is a shell of his former self...and that without Merriman, that D is awful. He can just go out and do his job.Which he has done remarkably well.

And yes...its an easy division, that accounts for 6 of the 16 games this year...same with the AFC East...thats 6 games. The East got 8 games against 2 of the worst divisions in football...the AFC West got to play the NFC South, the AFC East...2 of the better divisions in football. And with having the record they did last year, SD pulled Indy and Pitt.

Miami because of their record got Houston and Baltimore.

Comparing schedules...SD's is much tougher.

 
BassNBrew said:
Nemesis said:
my question marks:

NFC:

WR-Steve Smith didn't have a Pro Bowl year.......Calvin Johnson CERTAINLY DID (note that TO didn't make it!)
What are you smoking??? Smith leads him in recpt and yardage in two fewer games. That's 20 more yards per game. God created Steve Smith in his image and then thought about some playmates for him.
First of all, CJ plays for the Lions and did incredible in spite of being on an 0-14 team where the offense had nearly 5 different QBs during the year. 2nd: CJ didn't have the benefit of a running game and the other team could try to stop him. CAR 4th in rushing....DET 31st

and lastly, Why is it that S.Smith missed those 2 games?????????

Answer: Because he was a punk and cheap shot'd one of his OWN teammates. IMO, this clearly should have been the deciding factor for choosing CJ over Steve Smith.
1. Has no bearing. Being behind every game leads itself to more passing and garbage time stats. Being the only talent on the Lions means he will automatically get a lionshare of the looks.2. CAR's rushing game effectiveness shortens the game and reduces the need to pass.

3. Lucas thought he was being a bad ### monster. He should have checked the closet for Steve Smith first. Heck, Smith should have punked him twice. Once for not giving him the proper respect and a second time for the abortion of a performance at CB this year. Seriously, he served his time and still put up better numbers this year.
Overall I think it really doesn't make sense to say CJ should make it over Smith & Visa versa.. The thing is the 4 WR's that made it & Calvin & Greg Jennings all deserved to make it. Problem is they only take 4.. All 4 that made it were worthy but if CJ made it over Smith then I would be saying the same thing.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I guess Lechler got in over Scifres because he had more total punt yards.
Scifres has been the best punter in the NFL for the last few years (no snub to Lechler intended), him not being the starting punter this year (leads the league in net punt yards and fewest touchbacks) was the biggest exception in my opinion.
 
Pennington has done a remarkable job this year, he's been better than Rivers IMO. We all know he doesn't have a cannon and Miami doesn't throw much, but he's been extremely effective and is a key reason the Dolphins are sniffing the playoffs.

Rivers, despite leading one of the most talented teams in the league has lead his team to a 6-8 record in a horrible division.

Penny, despite playing in one of the best divisions, has led his team to sniffing the playoffs.

I wouldn't put either in, as I would have gone with Ben, but IMO it's Ben-Pennington-Rivers-Favre.
Rivers has attempted a whopping 15 more passes than Pennington this year... roughly 1 more attempt per game. I guess that has made all the difference in why his numbers (QB rating, yards, ypa, TDs, TD/int ratio, etc.) are superior across the board, despite facing a tougher schedule.Pennington has done a great job, but not a better job than Rivers. The Chargers have disappointed, but not because of Rivers.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I guess Lechler got in over Scifres because he had more total punt yards.
Scifres has been the best punter in the NFL for the last few years (no snub to Lechler intended), him not being the starting punter this year (leads the league in net punt yards and fewest touchbacks) was the biggest exception in my opinion.
I think your stats might be off.Scifres has 1,921 net punt yards, which is good for 21st...and among frequent punters, Hunter Smith and Mitch Berger each have fewer touchbacks (though it's close, 2 to 3). Lechler, comparatively, is 1st in yards, 1st in net yards, 3rd in inside-20.ETA: Sorry--after a bit, I realized you meant Scifres led in Net Avg, not Net Yards, which is true. He's 0.5 ahead of Lechler. I think the key is that Lechler has 80 punts (3rd) and Scifres has 46 (T23rd).
 
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Pennington has done a remarkable job this year, he's been better than Rivers IMO. We all know he doesn't have a cannon and Miami doesn't throw much, but he's been extremely effective and is a key reason the Dolphins are sniffing the playoffs.

Rivers, despite leading one of the most talented teams in the league has lead his team to a 6-8 record in a horrible division.

Penny, despite playing in one of the best divisions, has led his team to sniffing the playoffs.

I wouldn't put either in, as I would have gone with Ben, but IMO it's Ben-Pennington-Rivers-Favre.
Rivers has attempted a whopping 15 more passes than Pennington this year... roughly 1 more attempt per game. I guess that has made all the difference in why his numbers (QB rating, yards, ypa, TDs, TD/int ratio, etc.) are superior across the board, despite facing a tougher schedule.Pennington has done a great job, but not a better job than Rivers. The Chargers have disappointed, but not because of Rivers.
Perhaps the receivers have something to do with the better yardage? Penny has the luxury of throwing to a couple ok TEs, Camirillo, Ginn and Bess. Not a horrible group I guess, but hardly spectacular. Rivers has Gates, VJ, Chambers and a few others. Not the best group, but given the choices, which do you take? Penny's TD/INT ratio is about the same as Rivers. Rivers is the better QB, but Penny does deserve credit. Comeback player of the year, but that's it.

 
So catching the ball more consistently for more yardage, more first downs, and more yds per game means nothing since Moss got the end result of the hard work with TDs?
You do know that coverage constantly being rolled to Moss is why Welker is able to get open for so many short passes, right? Moss is such a dangerous deep threat, and NE is so efficient at running their system, that just about any good possession receiver could do what Welker is doing. He is a good possession receiver; nothing more, nothing less.
To further his point, Welker came to play EVERY week where Moss cashed it in for the first 4 or 5 weeks after Brady went down. When he finally realized that Cassell could play.
Did I imagine Moss' big day the same GAME where Brady got hurt, of his big game in their 4th game of the season?
At the time of Brady's injury there was no guarantee that he was done for the year and MOST of the yardage in that game was from the first throw that Cassell attempted. Don't forget that he was also playing against a horrible KC defense. Game 4 was against San Fran.... ANOTHER STELLAR D FOR SURE. Ok I'll admit, I was taking a bit of a pot shot at Randy and I don't truly believe he CRUISED through the beginning of the season but I DO think that a lot of voters (based on his history of doing that in the past) may have taken that into account.Some of those early struggles for him would have to be linked to the lack of targets he got from Captain Checkdown. Another factor that may have gone into the decision to leave him off the roster is that this would be a DOWN season for him based on what we know he can do. People don't look at the stats as much maybe as they should and they remember a HUGE performance (like Marshall's first game back) or in Reggie Wayne's case they remember who is throwing him the ball.

I wouldn't really have a problem with either Welker or Moss going ahead of Reggie Wayne and to a lesser degree Brandon Marshall.

I would vote Welker over Moss because I think he is the one who moves them between the 20s and Moss gets the glory looks in the endzone.

 
.................. he's been better than Rivers IMO.
False. Regardless of the QB you're talking about.
If he's been the best QB in the league, he'd be in the pro bowl. They never get this wrong.
I repeat what I asked earlier in the thread. Does anyone know if it has ever occurred that the NFL leader in TD passes was not chosen for the Pro Bowl, assuming he is healthy? Same question for QB rating.
 
Rivers getting left off might be the biggest snub of all time. Favre my ###
:thumbup: Not only should Favre not have made it ahead of him, no AFC QB should have made it ahead of him, Manning and Cutler included. Rivers should be the AFC starter.
I think Philriv's Q score hurt him.Brett Favre is a national treasure, a household name, and people like him. He can also throw the ball more than four yards without looking like a little girl, which works in his favor.

The perception that PhilRiv is the emotional equivalent of Boo Radley on meth probably cost him some fan votes. No father would point at PhilRiv and say, "Try to play and be like that guy, son. He seems to really have his head screwed on straight."

PhilRiv is the kind of guy who, if you were playing tennis with him at a club, would argue the line calls and taunt you if you were losing. That is to say, he's not a gentleman.

As I voted, I wanted to watch Brett Favre play one more time this season. I didn't want to see PhilRiv.
Clearly Q score was higher for Manning and Favre. But your description of Rivers just shows you don't really know much about him. His reputation is overblown and undeserved.
I had a girlfriend who had class with ole Phil at NCSU... she said he was cocky and kinda rude in general but not a complete ##### like he seems to be portrayed in the media.
 
RBM said:
=Smackdown= said:
Native said:
Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
:nerd: I have a feeling Jake will make many trips - he's getting the rookie snub here.Ronnie Brown getting in is a joke

Favre over Pennington is a bigger joke.
Pennington? Pennington? How do you mention him before RiversAnd Ryan Clady has been just as good if not better than Long
Clady should have gotten in. Pennington has done a remarkable job this year, he's been better than Rivers IMO. We all know he doesn't have a cannon and Miami doesn't throw much, but he's been extremely effective and is a key reason the Dolphins are sniffing the playoffs. Rivers, despite leading one of the most talented teams in the league has lead his team to a 6-8 record in a horrible division.

Penny, despite playing in one of the best divisions, has led his team to sniffing the playoffs.

I wouldn't put either in, as I would have gone with Ben, but IMO it's Ben-Pennington-Rivers-Favre.
Slow the train buddy... the AFC East is NOT a great division. They played the AFC and NFC West this year.... that is 8 games of bad football. In fact the Pats schedule was ranked the easiest to start the season. The Jets are TERRIBLY inconsistent... The Pats have no pass defense... The Bills (come on... too easy)...Pennington has been good and has led a team that NOBODY thought would be in this position but he should NOT make it over Phillip Rivers. Pro Bowl seems to be mostly about stats and not necessarily value. Pennington IMHO should get more MVP votes than Rivers because he has been more valuable this year but Rivers should beat him out for the pro bowl.

 
Favre even being considered is ridiculous...but making him a starter and leaving off Rivers altogether shows this voting to be a complete farce (farvce?)

Brees should be on there somewhere as well.

 
Favre even being considered is ridiculous...but making him a starter and leaving off Rivers altogether shows this voting to be a complete farce (farvce?)Brees should be on there somewhere as well.
Brees made it in the NFC, along with Warner and Eli. Warner is the starter.
 
My post for our Roundtable column this week:

Pretty weak OLB group in the NFC this season, so, though Derrick Brooks is getting in on name recognition mostly (he's not even an every-down player any more), it's hard to argue too much. I'd have found a way to recognize Karlos Dansby as an OLB or argue for Thomas Davis' quiet breakout season. Jon Beason is definitely deserving at the reserve ILB spot; there's a strong argument that he's played better than Patrick Willis. Bradie James and London Fletcher get honorable mentions and E.J. Henderson would have been right there had he stayed healthy.

With rare exception, this group looks very solid.
Ware :shrug:
 
I know it is all opinions and stuff, but I :pickle: at those saying Pennington should have made it. Don't get me wrong, he has a nice year and has helped in the Dolphins turnaround, but no way should he have made it over Manning, Cutler, Rivers, Favre or even Roethlisberger.

In fact, I am shocked at some of the boneheads on ESPN saying Cutler shouldn't have made it. I guess the fact that Denver's defense is terrible and that they are on their like 7th starting RB has escaped their minds. Without Cutler, the Broncos would be lucky to have won more than 3 or 4 games, instead of being on the verge of winning their division. Plus, he is 2nd in the AFC in TD passes, and is almost impossible to sack (yes, they have a great line, but his ability to avoid the rush and sacks is tremendous).

 
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BobbyLayne said:
Leon Washington made the AFC pro bowl as a kick returner; Brendon Ayanbadejo made it as a special teamer.
Ah - I thought they were both categorized as special teams.Learn something new every day! Gracias!
 
Since it hasnt been mentioned in a couple pages:

Woodley should have made it over Suggs (Im guessing Suggs returning both his INTs for TDs is why he made it)

Casey Hampton should have made it over Shaun Rogers

Hard to categorize Aaron Smith vs. a 4-3 DE, but I think he deserved it over Freeney. Freeney has 4 more sacks than Smith (which he should, in his scheme), but Smith has a surprising 29 more tackles

 
.................. he's been better than Rivers IMO.
False. Regardless of the QB you're talking about.
If he's been the best QB in the league, he'd be in the pro bowl. They never get this wrong.
I repeat what I asked earlier in the thread. Does anyone know if it has ever occurred that the NFL leader in TD passes was not chosen for the Pro Bowl, assuming he is healthy? Same question for QB rating.
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
 
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :thumbup: , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
 
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :useless: , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
now that's impressive. Rivers has thrown for 3515 yards

LT has 406 receiving

Sproles - 279

Tolbert - 171

Hester - 72

RBs - 928

928 / 3515 = 26.4%

I personally don't think that's an issue, a good QB utilizes his playmakers and works the offense, whatever it takes.

 
-OZ- said:
Ghost Rider said:
candymanvandyfan said:
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :wall: , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
now that's impressive. Rivers has thrown for 3515 yards

LT has 406 receiving

Sproles - 279

Tolbert - 171

Hester - 72

RBs - 928

928 / 3515 = 26.4%

I personally don't think that's an issue, a good QB utilizes his playmakers and works the offense, whatever it takes.
The Pro Bowl QBs have better WRs. Cutler has Marshall and Royal. Favre has Coles and Cotchery. Peyton has Wayne, Harrison, and Gonzalez. Rivers has Jackson, Floyd, and Chambers.When a QB has average WRs and good receiving RBs, it stands to reason he will throw to the RBs more often than other QBs who have better WRs. :wall:

Also, with regard to the notion that he has inflated his QB rating with throws to the RBs, consider Rivers' splits:

Pass Thrown Behind line - 104.3 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 1-10 yds. - 91.6 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 11-20 yds. - 100.9 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds. - 102.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds. - 93.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 41+ yds. - 127.1 QB Rating

He has been very good no matter where he throws the ball.

 
-OZ- said:
Ghost Rider said:
candymanvandyfan said:
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :P , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
now that's impressive.
Haha, I meant 9 yards per reception. Obviously. :P
 
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :goodposting: , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
now that's impressive. Rivers has thrown for 3515 yards

LT has 406 receiving

Sproles - 279

Tolbert - 171

Hester - 72

RBs - 928

928 / 3515 = 26.4%

I personally don't think that's an issue, a good QB utilizes his playmakers and works the offense, whatever it takes.
The Pro Bowl QBs have better WRs. Cutler has Marshall and Royal. Favre has Coles and Cotchery. Peyton has Wayne, Harrison, and Gonzalez. Rivers has Jackson, Floyd, and Chambers.When a QB has average WRs and good receiving RBs, it stands to reason he will throw to the RBs more often than other QBs who have better WRs. :goodposting:

Also, with regard to the notion that he has inflated his QB rating with throws to the RBs, consider Rivers' splits:

Pass Thrown Behind line - 104.3 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 1-10 yds. - 91.6 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 11-20 yds. - 100.9 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds. - 102.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds. - 93.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 41+ yds. - 127.1 QB Rating

He has been very good no matter where he throws the ball.
This analysis ignores the effect that these long handoffs have on the game. Do you think Phil's numbers would be better or worse if he hadn't had over 900 yards "passing" to his running backs? Do you think the team would have won more games or fewer games if the Chargers had thrown the ball down the field more often? I think the Chargers would have won more often with an offense that wasn't so risk averse and centered around the short passing game, but I think PhilRiv's numbers would have been much worse. I also think throwing down the field more would open up the running game for the Chargers a little bit.

My own opinion is that Trent Edwards or Jeff Garcia could have made all those same passes that PhilRiv made if either of them were at the head of the Chargers offense. Those two shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl either.

The Chargers offense with a HOF running back and a premier tight end couldn't manage more than the 14th most yards per game in the NFL.

See this article, which lauds Antonio Gates as one of the top ten Tight Ends of all time. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/77912-t...nd-the-afc-west

See this article which identifies LT as one of the five best running backs of all time. http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Top-10-Great...e&id=949033

This article shows putative picks by five prominent football writers and analysts. All five said they would have voted for Cutler and Manning. Four of them would have voted for Rivers. One would have voted for Big Ben. None of them, interestingly, indicated that they would have voted for Favre, even after the season the Jets have had as a result of him being there.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story?id=09000d...mp;confirm=true

Here's another way to think of the Favre pick, though. Thomas Jones is starting for the AFC at Running back. Do you think Brett Favre did anything to help that this year? I do. LT didn't make it to the Pro Bowl. Do you think PhilRiv had anything to do with that? I do.

As a fan, I cast my ballot for Cutler, Manning and Favre. By no measurable crieria except completion percentage and wins should Favre be in the Pro Bowl, but Brett Favre is an American hero, a gritty legend and someone who people want to watch play football. PhilRiv is just the guy who happens to be quarterbacking the Chargers because they got rid of Drew Brees.

I am sure for these and a number of other reasons, PhilRiv was not selected this year for Pro Bowl participation.

 
Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :P , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
now that's impressive. Rivers has thrown for 3515 yards

LT has 406 receiving

Sproles - 279

Tolbert - 171

Hester - 72

RBs - 928

928 / 3515 = 26.4%

I personally don't think that's an issue, a good QB utilizes his playmakers and works the offense, whatever it takes.
The Pro Bowl QBs have better WRs. Cutler has Marshall and Royal. Favre has Coles and Cotchery. Peyton has Wayne, Harrison, and Gonzalez. Rivers has Jackson, Floyd, and Chambers.When a QB has average WRs and good receiving RBs, it stands to reason he will throw to the RBs more often than other QBs who have better WRs. :confused:

Also, with regard to the notion that he has inflated his QB rating with throws to the RBs, consider Rivers' splits:

Pass Thrown Behind line - 104.3 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 1-10 yds. - 91.6 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 11-20 yds. - 100.9 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds. - 102.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds. - 93.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 41+ yds. - 127.1 QB Rating

He has been very good no matter where he throws the ball.
This analysis ignores the effect that these long handoffs have on the game. Do you think Phil's numbers would be better or worse if he hadn't had over 900 yards "passing" to his running backs? Do you think the team would have won more games or fewer games if the Chargers had thrown the ball down the field more often? I think the Chargers would have won more often with an offense that wasn't so risk averse and centered around the short passing game, but I think PhilRiv's numbers would have been much worse. I also think throwing down the field more would open up the running game for the Chargers a little bit.

My own opinion is that Trent Edwards or Jeff Garcia could have made all those same passes that PhilRiv made if either of them were at the head of the Chargers offense. Those two shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl either.

The Chargers offense with a HOF running back and a premier tight end couldn't manage more than the 14th most yards per game in the NFL.

See this article, which lauds Antonio Gates as one of the top ten Tight Ends of all time. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/77912-t...nd-the-afc-west

See this article which identifies LT as one of the five best running backs of all time. http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Top-10-Great...e&id=949033

This article shows putative picks by five prominent football writers and analysts. All five said they would have voted for Cutler and Manning. Four of them would have voted for Rivers. One would have voted for Big Ben. None of them, interestingly, indicated that they would have voted for Favre, even after the season the Jets have had as a result of him being there.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story?id=09000d...mp;confirm=true

Here's another way to think of the Favre pick, though. Thomas Jones is starting for the AFC at Running back. Do you think Brett Favre did anything to help that this year? I do. LT didn't make it to the Pro Bowl. Do you think PhilRiv had anything to do with that? I do.

As a fan, I cast my ballot for Cutler, Manning and Favre. By no measurable crieria except completion percentage and wins should Favre be in the Pro Bowl, but Brett Favre is an American hero, a gritty legend and someone who people want to watch play football. PhilRiv is just the guy who happens to be quarterbacking the Chargers because they got rid of Drew Brees.

I am sure for these and a number of other reasons, PhilRiv was not selected this year for Pro Bowl participation.
They have been injured on and off all year and did horribly. Are you really trying to justify Rivers' numbers this year based on the positive performances of Gates and LT? You realize this isn't 2007 right?
 
Because of injuries, neither Tomlinson nor Gates were near the player this year that they had been in years past. Anyone who has watched this play this year knows this.

 
LT didn't make it to the Pro Bowl. Do you think PhilRiv had anything to do with that? I do.
I'd ask this question rhetorically, but your lack of reasoning in this thread causes me to ask it legitimately: You do know that Tomlinson has made the Pro Bowl with Rivers as his quarterback, right? In fact, Tomlinson had arguably had one of the greatest seasons that any RB has ever had with Rivers as his quarterback.I get where you're coming from. You love Cutler because he's a Vandy guy. But what I don't get is why you think that Rivers being good somehow makes Cutler worse.
 
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Over 1/4 of PhilRiv's passing yards so far this year came on cheapy little disguised long handoff stuff to his backfield, yards that padded his stats, increased his completion percentage and inflated his passer rating. Nobody wants to see that in the Pro Bowl. PhilRiv is an average quarterback with a good supporting offensive cast. The Chargers running backs and fullbacks catch the dumpoffs and run with the ball extremely well. You don't really have to be a great quarterback to do that and doing that doesn't make you a great quarterback.
I hate sticking up for a punk like Rivers :unsure: , but SD's top 3 RBs are averaging only 9 catches per reception and 54 yards per game this season.
now that's impressive. Rivers has thrown for 3515 yards

LT has 406 receiving

Sproles - 279

Tolbert - 171

Hester - 72

RBs - 928

928 / 3515 = 26.4%

I personally don't think that's an issue, a good QB utilizes his playmakers and works the offense, whatever it takes.
The Pro Bowl QBs have better WRs. Cutler has Marshall and Royal. Favre has Coles and Cotchery. Peyton has Wayne, Harrison, and Gonzalez. Rivers has Jackson, Floyd, and Chambers.When a QB has average WRs and good receiving RBs, it stands to reason he will throw to the RBs more often than other QBs who have better WRs. :pickle:

Also, with regard to the notion that he has inflated his QB rating with throws to the RBs, consider Rivers' splits:

Pass Thrown Behind line - 104.3 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 1-10 yds. - 91.6 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 11-20 yds. - 100.9 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 21-30 yds. - 102.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 31-40 yds. - 93.8 QB Rating

Pass Thrown 41+ yds. - 127.1 QB Rating

He has been very good no matter where he throws the ball.
This analysis ignores the effect that these long handoffs have on the game. Do you think Phil's numbers would be better or worse if he hadn't had over 900 yards "passing" to his running backs? Do you think the team would have won more games or fewer games if the Chargers had thrown the ball down the field more often?
First of all, I didn't post any analysis, I posted splits and simply pointed out that he has been great this year no matter where on the field he has thrown the ball. That is fact, not opinion.Secondly, IMO players can only be judged on what they have done, not on speculation about what they might do in other situations (e.g., with different playcalling, with other teammates, on other teams, with better health, etc.). Basically, what you are doing is speculating, and there is no way to know or prove if you are right or wrong, though all evidence we do have suggest you are wrong.

Third, I believe your two questions here are basically combining to ask this hypothetical: if Rivers had not thrown as heavily to his RBs, wouldn't his numbers be worse?

Well, let's look at his numbers throwing to RBs and throwing to others. (These are from FBG.)

Targeting RBs: 97/126 (77.8%), 928 yards (7.4 ypa), 6 TDs, 0 interceptions, 112.8 QB rating

Targeting WRs/TEs: 179/294 (60.9%), 2587 yards (8.8 ypa), 22 TDs, 11 interceptions, 98.8 QB rating

7 attempts don't show up for some reason; I don't know why (thrown out of bounds with no reasonable target?)

Now, obviously it wouldn't be reasonable to say he should never have thrown to his RBs. So how much could Rivers have thrown to them and not been subject to this criticism? Well, let's just look at the 3 QBs who made the Pro Bowl ahead of him:

Manning: 101 of 548 attempts (18.4%)

Cutler: 52 of 522 attempts (10%)

Favre: 98 of 451 attempts (21.7%)

IMO it seems fairly obvious that Denver's attempts to the RBs were lowered by their string of injuries and revolving door at RB. IMO it is reasonable to take the median, Manning. So if we lowered Rivers' attempts to the RBs to 18.4%, that is 79. If Rivers attempted 47 more passes to his WRs and TEs, and we project out his current performance by position, we get:

RBs: 61/79, 585 yards, 4 TDs, 0 interceptions

WRs/TEs: 208/341, 3001 yards, 26 TDs, 13 interceptions

That totals to 269/427 (adding back the 7 unknown targets), 3586 yards, 30 TDs, and 13 interceptions. That's a 100.3 QB rating. So Rivers would still lead the league in TDs and QB rating.

Now, I anticipate you'll say if he threw less to the RBs, he would be less successful throwing to the WRs and TEs. Perhaps... but that also means his throws to the RBs could be more productive. All of this is speculation, which goes back to my earlier point. You can't justify that what I projected above is any less likely than a worse projected performance (or a better one, for that matter).

The whole exercise is silly, which is why your line of thinking is off base.

 
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I think the Chargers would have won more often with an offense that wasn't so risk averse and centered around the short passing game, but I think PhilRiv's numbers would have been much worse. I also think throwing down the field more would open up the running game for the Chargers a little bit.
How was the Chargers offense so risk averse? Let's compare Rivers' throws downfield to the other 3 QBs who made the Pro Bowl ahead of him:Rivers: 163/427 (38.2%) attempts 11 or more yards downfield

Cutler: 194/522 attempts (37.2%) 11 or more yards downfield

Manning: 163/548 attempts (29.7%) 11 or more yards downfield

Favre: 125/451 (27.8%) 11 or more yards downfield

Do you have similar criticism of Cutler, Manning, and Favre? And their risk averse offenses?

And perhaps you aren't too familiar with the Chargers' performance this season. If you were, you would probably know their offense hasn't been their problem.

My own opinion is that Trent Edwards or Jeff Garcia could have made all those same passes that PhilRiv made if either of them were at the head of the Chargers offense. Those two shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl either.
This is laughable and baseless speculation which is far off base IMO.
The Chargers offense with a HOF running back and a premier tight end couldn't manage more than the 14th most yards per game in the NFL.

See this article, which lauds Antonio Gates as one of the top ten Tight Ends of all time. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/77912-t...nd-the-afc-west

See this article which identifies LT as one of the five best running backs of all time. http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Top-10-Great...e&id=949033
Now I know you aren't familiar with the Chargers performance this year. Gates is a top TE of all time and LT is a top RB of all time based on previous seasons, not this season. Both of them missed significant time in offseason, preseason, and in season practice due to injury and played hurt much of the season. What they did in the past to justify their all time rankings has nothing to do with how well they have performed this season, and thus nothing to do with how well Rivers has played this season.LT is having the worst season of his career, and Gates is having his worst season since 2003, his rookie season. This entire part of your argument is completely off base.

This article shows putative picks by five prominent football writers and analysts. All five said they would have voted for Cutler and Manning. Four of them would have voted for Rivers. One would have voted for Big Ben. None of them, interestingly, indicated that they would have voted for Favre, even after the season the Jets have had as a result of him being there.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story?id=09000d...mp;confirm=true
Good, so they agree Rivers should have made it. This is the best part of your post, possibly because it's the only part that isn't your opinion.
Here's another way to think of the Favre pick, though. Thomas Jones is starting for the AFC at Running back. Do you think Brett Favre did anything to help that this year? I do. LT didn't make it to the Pro Bowl. Do you think PhilRiv had anything to do with that? I do.
:pickle: This is laughable. So you blame Rivers for LT not making the Pro Bowl. Based on what? Rivers led a dominant passing game all season. What do you think he should have done but failed to do in order to help LT make the Pro Bowl?

Do you really think it is reasonable to give all credit/blame to the QBs, without regard to playcalling or performance of the OL? Or (gasp) performance of the RB himself?

As a fan, I cast my ballot for Cutler, Manning and Favre. By no measurable crieria except completion percentage and wins should Favre be in the Pro Bowl, but Brett Favre is an American hero, a gritty legend and someone who people want to watch play football. PhilRiv is just the guy who happens to be quarterbacking the Chargers because they got rid of Drew Brees.

I am sure for these and a number of other reasons, PhilRiv was not selected this year for Pro Bowl participation.
This is a good illustration of why fans should not participate in the voting process, if the NFL ever wants to the Pro Bowl to actually come close to representing the best players in the NFL in any given season.
 
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I think the Chargers would have won more often with an offense that wasn't so risk averse and centered around the short passing game, but I think PhilRiv's numbers would have been much worse. I also think throwing down the field more would open up the running game for the Chargers a little bit.
How was the Chargers offense so risk averse? Let's compare Rivers' throws downfield to the other 3 QBs who made the Pro Bowl ahead of him:Rivers: 163/427 (38.2%) attempts 11 or more yards downfield

Cutler: 194/522 attempts (37.2%) 11 or more yards downfield

Manning: 163/548 attempts (29.7%) 11 or more yards downfield

Favre: 125/451 (27.8%) 11 or more yards downfield

Do you have similar criticism of Cutler, Manning, and Favre? And their risk averse offenses?

And perhaps you aren't too familiar with the Chargers' performance this season. If you were, you would probably know their offense hasn't been their problem.

My own opinion is that Trent Edwards or Jeff Garcia could have made all those same passes that PhilRiv made if either of them were at the head of the Chargers offense. Those two shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl either.
This is laughable and baseless speculation which is far off base IMO.
The Chargers offense with a HOF running back and a premier tight end couldn't manage more than the 14th most yards per game in the NFL.

See this article, which lauds Antonio Gates as one of the top ten Tight Ends of all time. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/77912-t...nd-the-afc-west

See this article which identifies LT as one of the five best running backs of all time. http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Top-10-Great...e&id=949033
Now I know you aren't familiar with the Chargers performance this year. Gates is a top TE of all time and LT is a top RB of all time based on previous seasons, not this season. Both of them missed significant time in offseason, preseason, and in season practice due to injury and played hurt much of the season. What they did in the past to justify their all time rankings has nothing to do with how well they have performed this season, and thus nothing to do with how well Rivers has played this season.LT is having the worst season of his career, and Gates is having his worst season since 2003, his rookie season. This entire part of your argument is completely off base.

This article shows putative picks by five prominent football writers and analysts. All five said they would have voted for Cutler and Manning. Four of them would have voted for Rivers. One would have voted for Big Ben. None of them, interestingly, indicated that they would have voted for Favre, even after the season the Jets have had as a result of him being there.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story?id=09000d...mp;confirm=true
Good, so they agree Rivers should have made it. This is the best part of your post, possibly because it's the only part that isn't your opinion.
Here's another way to think of the Favre pick, though. Thomas Jones is starting for the AFC at Running back. Do you think Brett Favre did anything to help that this year? I do. LT didn't make it to the Pro Bowl. Do you think PhilRiv had anything to do with that? I do.
:hophead: This is laughable. So you blame Rivers for LT not making the Pro Bowl. Based on what? Rivers led a dominant passing game all season. What do you think he should have done but failed to do in order to help LT make the Pro Bowl?

Do you really think it is reasonable to give all credit/blame to the QBs, without regard to playcalling or performance of the OL? Or (gasp) performance of the RB himself?

As a fan, I cast my ballot for Cutler, Manning and Favre. By no measurable crieria except completion percentage and wins should Favre be in the Pro Bowl, but Brett Favre is an American hero, a gritty legend and someone who people want to watch play football. PhilRiv is just the guy who happens to be quarterbacking the Chargers because they got rid of Drew Brees.

I am sure for these and a number of other reasons, PhilRiv was not selected this year for Pro Bowl participation.
This is a good illustration of why fans should not participate in the voting process, if the NFL ever wants to the Pro Bowl to actually come close to representing the best players in the NFL in any given season.
JWB, your continuous defense of Rivers borders on obsession - I tend to agree with you, but I think much of your posts and the thought you put into them fall on deaf ears. Rivers should have been in ahead of Favre, hands down, and one could make the argument that he deserved to be in ahead of Cutler. Unfortunately for him, his reputation as a punk precedes him. And FWIW, I really don't have a problem with the guy - he's just very competitive, which, frankly, is what you want out of your QB.
 
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Matt freaking Cassel is more deserving of a Pro Bowl berth than Favre. He has his team at the same record despite a worse defense and lacking the AFCs leading rusher.

 
JWB, your continuous defense of Rivers borders on obsession - I tend to agree with you, but I think much of your posts and the thought you put into them fall on deaf ears. Rivers should have been in ahead of Favre, hands down, and one could make the argument that he deserved to be in ahead of Cutler. Unfortunately for him, his reputation as a punk precedes him. And FWIW, I really don't have a problem with the guy - he's just very competitive, which, frankly, is what you want out of your QB.
I'm not obsessed. He is just my favorite player and happens to be a player who is continually underrated and unfairly criticized. When I see it, I respond to it. As I suspect many would for their favorite players. :lmao:I try to put thought and facts in my posts as much as possible, to avoid just coming across as a homer. (Though I'm sure most feel that is what I am anyway.) I agree a lot of it falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately, a lot of posters around here already have their minds made up about players, and in many cases they don't really have a good basis for it... yet many stubbornly hold onto those opinions no matter what the player does or what facts or evidence is shown to contradict their opinions. For evidence of this, just look at the Rivers is Terrible thread that is still going after more than 2 years... during which he has a stellar winning percentage, has put up very strong numbers, and has taken his team to the AFC Championship game.
 
Rivers should have been in ahead of Favre, hands down, and one could make the argument that he deserved to be in ahead of Cutler. Unfortunately for him, his reputation as a punk precedes him.
According to the Nashville Scene, you may have the wrong punk.
Vanderbilt favorite son Jay Cutler may be one of the NFL's more promising young quarterbacks, but he's not winning many friends. Word out of Denver is that he's largely disliked by his own team, due to a terminal bout of arrogance.
Somehow, this didn't keep Cutler out of the Pro Bowl.
 
JWB, your continuous defense of Rivers borders on obsession - I tend to agree with you, but I think much of your posts and the thought you put into them fall on deaf ears. Rivers should have been in ahead of Favre, hands down, and one could make the argument that he deserved to be in ahead of Cutler. Unfortunately for him, his reputation as a punk precedes him. And FWIW, I really don't have a problem with the guy - he's just very competitive, which, frankly, is what you want out of your QB.
I'm not obsessed. He is just my favorite player and happens to be a player who is continually underrated and unfairly criticized. When I see it, I respond to it. As I suspect many would for their favorite players. :thumbup:I try to put thought and facts in my posts as much as possible, to avoid just coming across as a homer. (Though I'm sure most feel that is what I am anyway.) I agree a lot of it falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately, a lot of posters around here already have their minds made up about players, and in many cases they don't really have a good basis for it... yet many stubbornly hold onto those opinions no matter what the player does or what facts or evidence is shown to contradict their opinions. For evidence of this, just look at the Rivers is Terrible thread that is still going after more than 2 years... during which he has a stellar winning percentage, has put up very strong numbers, and has taken his team to the AFC Championship game.
JWB, I hear you. Your defense of Rivers is understandable and fine. No objection. Good discussion.Consider my point of view on this thing. Using your numbers, 126 of PR's 427 passes went to Running Backs. That's 29.5% of the time. I personally prefer to watch Quarterbacks who can and do throw the ball down the field. While it is fine to applaud the seeming efficiency of the short passes of players like Garcia, Pennington and Rivers, I think it degrades overall offensive performance for any number of reasons and is less enjoyable to watch. You don't need a great quarterback to throw to the running back 29.5% of the time. You need an efficient quarterback, which I am quick to admit that Rivers is. Using your numbers, it shakes out this way:Rivers: 126 of his 427 attempts (29.5%) went to Running BacksFavre: 98 of his 451 attempts (21.7%) went to Running BacksManning: 101 of his 548 attempts (18.4%) went to Running BacksCutler: 52 of his 522 attempts (10%) went to Running BacksThat's almost a 20% delta from top to bottom. 29.5% is just too many long handoffs and around the line of scrimmage stuff for my liking. I don't want to watch anybody do that in the Pro Bowl. I want to see somebody huck it down the field to Andre Johnson.
 
Taken from another site....

Jake Long - 14 Starts - 5 Penalties for 40 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 15.5 yards

Joe Thomas - 14 Starts - 6 Penalties for 35 yards - 2.5 sacks allowed for 11.5 yards

Jason Peters - 13 Starts - 8 Penalties for 55 yards - 11.5 sacks allowed for 106.5 yards

How did Peters get in over Long?
Peters stinks. He gets dominated by speed rushers and he is a feeble run blocker. I am a Bills fan and the team would have been better had they cut him when held out. Not only is he not a Pro Bowler he is not even a good O Lineman.
Agreed. Only reason Peters is in over Long is that Peters made it last yr & Long is a rookie. IMO, Peters is the least deserving player on either side. He reported fat & out of shape after his holdout & was a liability all year. Rewatch the play where Losman fumbled to lose game last week & see who the DE blows around to track down Losman. Enough said.
:thumbup: What's really sick is that there is an article on NFL.com already about how Peters is still upset about his contract. My guess is that he now thinks that he deserves a huge contract even more than before since he's a 2 time Pro Bowler now. :rolleyes: The O-line has been a disaster all season thanks in large part to him. I have no idea how he got voted in. What a joke. Maybe some team out there will be dumb enough to just see his two Pro Bowl nominations and trade for him this offseason. He's going to hold out for a new contract again and I really don't want to see him in a Bills uniform ever again after this season.ETA: In fact, gotta love this quote from Peters in the NFL.com article:

It is overwhelming," he said. "This is what you play the game for, to get to Hawaii. It is an honor."
Yup, sounds like Peters. You don't play the game to win or win a championship, you play to go to the Pro Bowl. A game that nobody cares about. :unsure:
 
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JWB, your continuous defense of Rivers borders on obsession - I tend to agree with you, but I think much of your posts and the thought you put into them fall on deaf ears. Rivers should have been in ahead of Favre, hands down, and one could make the argument that he deserved to be in ahead of Cutler. Unfortunately for him, his reputation as a punk precedes him. And FWIW, I really don't have a problem with the guy - he's just very competitive, which, frankly, is what you want out of your QB.
I'm not obsessed. He is just my favorite player and happens to be a player who is continually underrated and unfairly criticized. When I see it, I respond to it. As I suspect many would for their favorite players. :goodposting:I try to put thought and facts in my posts as much as possible, to avoid just coming across as a homer. (Though I'm sure most feel that is what I am anyway.) I agree a lot of it falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately, a lot of posters around here already have their minds made up about players, and in many cases they don't really have a good basis for it... yet many stubbornly hold onto those opinions no matter what the player does or what facts or evidence is shown to contradict their opinions. For evidence of this, just look at the Rivers is Terrible thread that is still going after more than 2 years... during which he has a stellar winning percentage, has put up very strong numbers, and has taken his team to the AFC Championship game.
JWB, I hear you. Your defense of Rivers is understandable and fine. No objection. Good discussion.Consider my point of view on this thing. Using your numbers, 126 of PR's 427 passes went to Running Backs. That's 29.5% of the time. I personally prefer to watch Quarterbacks who can and do throw the ball down the field. While it is fine to applaud the seeming efficiency of the short passes of players like Garcia, Pennington and Rivers, I think it degrades overall offensive performance for any number of reasons and is less enjoyable to watch. You don't need a great quarterback to throw to the running back 29.5% of the time. You need an efficient quarterback, which I am quick to admit that Rivers is. Using your numbers, it shakes out this way:Rivers: 126 of his 427 attempts (29.5%) went to Running BacksFavre: 98 of his 451 attempts (21.7%) went to Running BacksManning: 101 of his 548 attempts (18.4%) went to Running BacksCutler: 52 of his 522 attempts (10%) went to Running BacksThat's almost a 20% delta from top to bottom. 29.5% is just too many long handoffs and around the line of scrimmage stuff for my liking. I don't want to watch anybody do that in the Pro Bowl. I want to see somebody huck it down the field to Andre Johnson.
Did you miss this part of my earlier post?
Let's compare Rivers' throws downfield to the other 3 QBs who made the Pro Bowl ahead of him:Rivers: 163/427 (38.2%) attempts 11 or more yards downfieldCutler: 194/522 attempts (37.2%) 11 or more yards downfieldManning: 163/548 attempts (29.7%) 11 or more yards downfieldFavre: 125/451 (27.8%) 11 or more yards downfield
I did a quick check of the rest of the top 15 QBs in QB rating, and Rivers throws downfield a higher percentage of the time than all of them. I'm guessing he does so more often than any QB in the NFL, I just don't feel like looking at all of their individual splits to confirm it. So Rivers "hucks it down the field" more than anyone. :)I think the likely explanation for this is that Rivers more often throws to his RBs in his throws from 1-10 yards downfield than the other QBs. Those other QBs throw more often in that range than Rivers does, and when they do, they target their WRs and TEs more than Rivers does. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to object to Rivers throwing to his RBs instead of his WRs/TEs in the 1-10 yard range, especially when the Chargers RBs are talented receivers, like Tomlinson and Sproles. But to each his own.
 
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Just Win Baby said:
thatguy said:
JWB, your continuous defense of Rivers borders on obsession - I tend to agree with you, but I think much of your posts and the thought you put into them fall on deaf ears. Rivers should have been in ahead of Favre, hands down, and one could make the argument that he deserved to be in ahead of Cutler. Unfortunately for him, his reputation as a punk precedes him. And FWIW, I really don't have a problem with the guy - he's just very competitive, which, frankly, is what you want out of your QB.
I'm not obsessed. He is just my favorite player and happens to be a player who is continually underrated and unfairly criticized. When I see it, I respond to it. As I suspect many would for their favorite players. :lmao: I try to put thought and facts in my posts as much as possible, to avoid just coming across as a homer. (Though I'm sure most feel that is what I am anyway.) I agree a lot of it falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately, a lot of posters around here already have their minds made up about players, and in many cases they don't really have a good basis for it... yet many stubbornly hold onto those opinions no matter what the player does or what facts or evidence is shown to contradict their opinions. For evidence of this, just look at the Rivers is Terrible thread that is still going after more than 2 years... during which he has a stellar winning percentage, has put up very strong numbers, and has taken his team to the AFC Championship game.
Yeah, I understand you're not obsessed - it's completely understandable to come to the defense of your favorite player. I guess my point is that, like you said, people are going to stubbornly hold onto their own views, so at times your efforts to sway others are almost certainly in vain. Were it me, I guess I wouldn't put in the effort.
 
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