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I hate to say it, but I am starting to think that Cutler is a bit of punk. He is incredibly arrogant, that much is obvious. I just hope that he grows up, allows his play on the field to do the talking for him, and learns to lead the team. Because right now, I don't get the feeling that he is the leader of that team, and they desperately need him to be.Despyzer said:
I'm glad JWB does it, because it saves me a lot of effort.Yeah, I understand you're not obsessed - it's completely understandable to come to the defense of your favorite player. I guess my point is that, like you said, people are going to stubbornly hold onto their own views, so at times your efforts to sway others are almost certainly in vain. Were it me, I guess I wouldn't put in the effort.Just Win Baby said:I'm not obsessed. He is just my favorite player and happens to be a player who is continually underrated and unfairly criticized. When I see it, I respond to it. As I suspect many would for their favorite players.thatguy said:I try to put thought and facts in my posts as much as possible, to avoid just coming across as a homer. (Though I'm sure most feel that is what I am anyway.) I agree a lot of it falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately, a lot of posters around here already have their minds made up about players, and in many cases they don't really have a good basis for it... yet many stubbornly hold onto those opinions no matter what the player does or what facts or evidence is shown to contradict their opinions. For evidence of this, just look at the Rivers is Terrible thread that is still going after more than 2 years... during which he has a stellar winning percentage, has put up very strong numbers, and has taken his team to the AFC Championship game.
he didn't do it soon enough.you can't really hold it against the voters for something rivers accomplishes after, right?The chargers look better. Big win today. If they make it, they AFC West team may not be the pushover it seemed they'd be. AFC is looking super tough right now. NFC is a bit of a joke comparatively speaking.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
be serious
JWB, let me ask these two questions: 1) Which three quarterbacks do you want to see represent the AFC in the Pro Bowl? 2) Which three quarterbacks do you think earned the opportunity to represent the AFC in the Pro Bowl based on their play in 2008?If you answer the first question with Manning, Favre, Rivers, I'll accept that. If you answer the second question with Manning, Favre, Rivers, I won't accept that. You can't argue that Rivers should be in the Pro Bowl based on merit and this load of numbers and then put Favre in over Cutler.If we assume your high-minded merit-based Pro Bowl inclusion process, it's not Rivers out and Cutler in. It's Rivers out and Favre in.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
1. Rivers, Manning, Pennington2. Rivers, Manning, Pennington
Why would anyone not want the most deserving players to be selected?
your young QB looks good, looks like he has a bright future ahead of him.He is not favre.don't put cutler in the hall just yet
The point is that Rivers is more deserving than any other AFC QB except possibly Manning. So if Favre had to get in as a sentimental choice, it shouldn't have happened at Rivers' expense. Cutler should have been the guy left out.That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
Yes, I absolutely hold it against the voters. They had no business voting Cutler or Favre in over Rivers. Period.And I hold it against the NFL for structuring their selection process to be complete with only 15 of 17 regular season weeks complete... meaning 1/8 of the season remains at that point, and more like 1/4 or less remained when votes were submitted. It's a joke.he didn't do it soon enough.you can't really hold it against the voters for something rivers accomplishes after, right?The chargers look better. Big win today. If they make it, they AFC West team may not be the pushover it seemed they'd be. AFC is looking super tough right now. NFC is a bit of a joke comparatively speaking.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
Sorry, I can't follow your thinking here... it doesn't make sense to me.Rivers and Manning should clearly have been in. I would rank Cutler third. Favre wouldn't even be a consideration at this point.Perhaps I threw you off with my post about Cutler and Rivers that you quoted. That was not to imply that Cutler might not be deserving, just that he is not as deserving as Rivers. Some said earlier in the thread that it was about winning, and so my post about Cutler was related to that. If Cutler was chosen above Rivers because he led his team to a better record, despite the fact that Rivers outperformed him on the field, that logic will no longer apply when the Chargers win the division next week.JWB, let me ask these two questions: 1) Which three quarterbacks do you want to see represent the AFC in the Pro Bowl? 2) Which three quarterbacks do you think earned the opportunity to represent the AFC in the Pro Bowl based on their play in 2008?If you answer the first question with Manning, Favre, Rivers, I'll accept that. If you answer the second question with Manning, Favre, Rivers, I won't accept that. You can't argue that Rivers should be in the Pro Bowl based on merit and this load of numbers and then put Favre in over Cutler.If we assume your high-minded merit-based Pro Bowl inclusion process, it's not Rivers out and Cutler in. It's Rivers out and Favre in.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
I agree that he is the most deserving, but you've made it clear you don't buy into the whole sentimental vote crap, so it certainly shouldn't be at Cutler's expense is all I'm saying. Neither of them should have been left out just so Favre could get in.The point is that Rivers is more deserving than any other AFC QB except possibly Manning. So if Favre had to get in as a sentimental choice, it shouldn't have happened at Rivers' expense. Cutler should have been the guy left out.That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
Agreed.I agree that he is the most deserving, but you've made it clear you don't buy into the whole sentimental vote crap, so it certainly shouldn't be at Cutler's expense is all I'm saying. Neither of them should have been left out just so Favre could get in.The point is that Rivers is more deserving than any other AFC QB except possibly Manning. So if Favre had to get in as a sentimental choice, it shouldn't have happened at Rivers' expense. Cutler should have been the guy left out.That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
I think it ends week 11 or 12, 15 sounds too high. I remember fan balloting ending late one week and then I think the others had to have it in by that very next TuesdayYes, I absolutely hold it against the voters. They had no business voting Cutler or Favre in over Rivers. Period.And I hold it against the NFL for structuring their selection process to be complete with only 15 of 17 regular season weeks complete... meaning 1/8 of the season remains at that point, and more like 1/4 or less remained when votes were submitted. It's a joke.he didn't do it soon enough.you can't really hold it against the voters for something rivers accomplishes after, right?The chargers look better. Big win today. If they make it, they AFC West team may not be the pushover it seemed they'd be. AFC is looking super tough right now. NFC is a bit of a joke comparatively speaking.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
Have you ever seen a lock HOFer get the nod over someone?then why do you act so surprised and borderline offended that Favre is in over Cutler?BTW did you vote?
didn't seem to help LT this year
in over RIVERSManning and Rivers are the only two that should have been locks for the pro-bowlthe third spot was a tossup with Pennington, Cutler and even Casselif Favre was going to knock anyone out, it should have been Cutler because Rivers >>> Cutler
I said week 15 because the results were announced after week 15. I can see no reason why the voting should not be condensed, voting could be opened after week 16 and could continue for 4 weeks, then results could be announced during the week before the conference championships or the week before the Super Bowl. The point is, Pro Bowl selections should be based on full seasons, not partial seasons. The fact that they aren't, and that fan voting can actually change the results of the process, is what makes Pro Bowl selections a poor metric for evaluating players.I think it ends week 11 or 12, 15 sounds too high. I remember fan balloting ending late one week and then I think the others had to have it in by that very next TuesdayYes, I absolutely hold it against the voters. They had no business voting Cutler or Favre in over Rivers. Period.And I hold it against the NFL for structuring their selection process to be complete with only 15 of 17 regular season weeks complete... meaning 1/8 of the season remains at that point, and more like 1/4 or less remained when votes were submitted. It's a joke.he didn't do it soon enough.you can't really hold it against the voters for something rivers accomplishes after, right?The chargers look better. Big win today. If they make it, they AFC West team may not be the pushover it seemed they'd be. AFC is looking super tough right now. NFC is a bit of a joke comparatively speaking.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
I didn't want to vote for Tomlinson this year. I was torn as superman became human in 2008. what clinched it for me is how a real lot of people here(fans) thought Sproles was better or the better option at one point. If he's not the best option on his own team, how far has he fallen?(He was but just that anyone could even think as such was shocking). It just didn't feel like Tomlinson's year to me. Maybe I have to get used to him not being superman. Maybe it is 100% me and not LT2's fault as he still did well but that's how I felt at the time.
like I said earlier, Rivers will get in it'll just take someone stepping out of the game first. The thing that gets me is how almost offended some SD fans are. At the moment, Cassel is giving him a run for this fictitious yet probable spot. Unsure of the exact date, Favre hasn't been good lately but wasn't he 8-3 or somesuch when the voting ended? After last year's Jets W-L record, a player that is already arguably the biggest name in sports goes to the media capital of the world and turns their franchise around.....he's getting in. The Jets blew out the best team in the NFL(Titans) around the time of the voting too. It did not look like Rivers team would make the playoffs. It seemed that they were underperforming, in fact IMO the Chargers and Cowboys were the biggest bust teams in 08. I expected big things and they were both flat. Now, he's still doing well and they can make the playoffs.(The Boys can back in) It definitely seems different than a few weeks ago. Aside from the HOF stuff giving Favre an edge, winning team vs "eh" team(at the time) would probably give Favre an edge too.Another point, I felt like alot of teams started slow this year. NFL teams are treating preseason as a joke more and more and it bit them this year. Colts were almost out of the division race in like week 6 or somesuch. They've won every game or almost every game since but, well there's one example. The Chargers D looked lost without Merriman. Weren't they 3-5 in the first half of the season? The Jags lost those linemen and that hurts but don't the backups get a ton of time in preseason? Shouldn't someone have been ready? I felt like their season was done in like week 2 or 3. That's pathetic when you're as talented a team as the Jags are. I think some coaches and players made a crucial mistake and brushed off preseason as unimportant and then in week 3 or so, realized their mistake. I didn't feel like voting for the leader of a struggling, underperforming team THEN.I remember the Titans threads where people thought their opponents were weak. Now the Colts, Vikes, Ravens, Bears are in the playoffs or close to. The Texans have the 2nd or 3rd best O in the NFL and clearly have won support. The very same teams now get the Titans respect for having beaten them. All you have to do is search here to see fans opinions change of the very same results. It's not like those wins have changed and the Titans won by more points or something. I think Rivers went thru something similar with fans opinions.
I think this is because many years the best games are late in the regular season and not actually in the playoffs. In theory, the Supe should be the gem, an overtime game for sure. As you know, it doesn't work out that way usually. The NFL PR machine wants people identifying its stars for the biggest games. If it's done by week 13 or so, then they have this for end of reg season and the playoffs. aren't hoops and MLB at like halfway thru their season? I think the NFL might actually be one of the later "all star" votes.While your theory is good and I agree it would provide better results(esp if people actually voted around here and next to no one does) it doesn't feed the PR machine as well. Star player playing well in big game=merchandise sales. I wouldn't doubt as we debate HOFers and such, some NFL guy is thinking how player X had the best late season run by selling 10 times more jerseys after a big game. There's guys like David Tyree that people flat out don't know until he makes the pro bowl for ST. Then when he makes that big catch in the Supe....wow that must have inflated jersey sales for him. Did Bradshaw do anything last night as the NFL's best rushing offense ran for 300 yards? Yet how many people keep touting him based on last year's playoff run? Remember all the Supe MVPs getting overpaid and then stinkin' on their next team? Fans latch onto players from about now til the end of the NFL year. They want their stars identified for this golden opportunity.
good snip, feeds the discussion wellBecause Favre didn't deserve it?
Cutler is in, so um, yeah. Second, I'm neither surprised nor offended. I simply said it's not right that Favre made it over Rivers. You're a pretty impossible guy to have a discussion with though. Carry on, or, I don't know, feel free to continue this completely unnecessary quasi-argument that is based on nothing.
Well, this sentiment business is why I asked you the two questions. Who do you want? Who earned it?You're either arguing theoretically for merit based selection or you're disappointed that PhilRiv isn't more popular. I am having trouble determining which. You seem to be accepting of the notion that it would be OK for Cutler to get screwed by Favre-based sentimentality, but not OK for Rivers to get screwed by it. I would only request that you re-examine your notions of justice and equity in a more detached way. This is the kind of silliness that makes people question the jury system.The point is that Rivers is more deserving than any other AFC QB except possibly Manning. So if Favre had to get in as a sentimental choice, it shouldn't have happened at Rivers' expense. Cutler should have been the guy left out.That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
Dude, I posted this in response to one of your other posts:Well, this sentiment business is why I asked you the two questions. Who do you want? Who earned it?You're either arguing theoretically for merit based selection or you're disappointed that PhilRiv isn't more popular. I am having trouble determining which. You seem to be accepting of the notion that it would be OK for Cutler to get screwed by Favre-based sentimentality, but not OK for Rivers to get screwed by it. I would only request that you re-examine your notions of justice and equity in a more detached way. This is the kind of silliness that makes people question the jury system.The point is that Rivers is more deserving than any other AFC QB except possibly Manning. So if Favre had to get in as a sentimental choice, it shouldn't have happened at Rivers' expense. Cutler should have been the guy left out.That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
Reading comprehension down?
That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
you're right I misunderstood, replied to cutler comments as if rivers.I quoted two previous ones just to sorta clarify my oops.
That's not silliness. While I'd favor Culter over Favre for the Pro Bowl, if Favre did make it in place of Culter, it wouldn't be nearly as egregious as Favre making it over Rivers.Well, this sentiment business is why I asked you the two questions. Who do you want? Who earned it?You're either arguing theoretically for merit based selection or you're disappointed that PhilRiv isn't more popular. I am having trouble determining which. You seem to be accepting of the notion that it would be OK for Cutler to get screwed by Favre-based sentimentality, but not OK for Rivers to get screwed by it. I would only request that you re-examine your notions of justice and equity in a more detached way. This is the kind of silliness that makes people question the jury system.The point is that Rivers is more deserving than any other AFC QB except possibly Manning. So if Favre had to get in as a sentimental choice, it shouldn't have happened at Rivers' expense. Cutler should have been the guy left out.That's certainly not a given yet... I think next week will be a good game.And given that Favre clearly doesn't belong, it doesn't seem necessary to argue for Rivers over Cutler.So now it appears likely that Cutler will have been selected to the Pro Bowl over Rivers, despite the fact that Rivers has outperformed him on the field and will likely have led his team to the division title over Cutler's team.
that's not what I said
And I stand by that sentiment. Pro Bowl selections SHOULD reward those who are the best at their position in a given season. Unfortunately, this often isn't the case. And as I said, I am not surprised by Favre getting in, because as you said he is a lock for the HOF, and that carries weight with the voting public. I just think it's a shame that Rivers got snubbed. It doesn't offend me, it just doesn't seem right. He has been a far better QB this year than Favre - as JWB said, he is probably the most deserving of any AFC QB.
He didn't go last year when voted in, or in 2001, 2002 or 2003 IIRC, so I doubt he goes this year.
He'll have to weigh whether he thinks he can get more ESPN coverage by going or not going.
It's really a crime that these guys didn't make it. Each was by far the best player in the NFL this season at his position.
it is not a seasonal award but voted upon in novemberalso, I'd take Brees' 5k or Manning over Rivers this year. Lechler averaged 3 more yards per punt and punted 23 more times
3 yards is significant. Do you know how many punters are within 3 yards of Scifres?The Rams punter averaged 50 yards per punt, the NFL record is 51.4 held by Sammy Baugh.
Gross yards per punt is a poor measure. Lechler plays for the Raiders, so he always punts with a full field ahead of him. Scifres has a shorter field, so he's pooching it inside the 20 more often. Notwithstanding Lechler's advantage, Scifres averages more net yards per punt. He also puts more of his punts inside the twenty, and has fewer punts returned.And if you've watched both guys punt, there shouldn't be any question at all about who gets better hang time.
I doubt Lechler has ever come close to the performance Scifres had last night.
