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QB Deshaun Watson, CLE (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
daveR
Footballguy
The "fact" that nothing happened? How do you prove a negative? That said, wouldn't the "preponderance of the evidence" always fall on the side of the plaintiff? After all, that person will have a testimony, whereas the defendant will only have a denial. Just wondering how the lawyers here see it.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
First off, no. Testimony of both the plaintiffs and the defendants should start off on equal footing and then it comes down to credibility to push it to one side or the other.
Also the standard for a civil trial is “more likely than not” that the defendant is at fault.
TheWinz
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
MarkMaske@MarkMaske
From our story... A source on Deshaun Watson’s side of the case said the NFL “probably” will seek a suspension of a full season.
====================
Pete Smith@_PeteSmith_
This is why he's not getting a year. The Browns would benefit.
C.E.@cde_48
Question…if he’s suspended for the entire season, he won’t be able to hit FA until a year later since it won’t be counted as an accrued season, his cap charge won’t count this year, and the Browns could roll the savings from suspension, into 2023, correct?
=====================================
Pete Smith@_PeteSmith_
The league - We wanted to give him a year! The NFLPA - We made our point about the hypocrisy in how players are punished versus owners!
Expectation: 6-8 games.
---------------------------------------
Pete Smith@_PeteSmith_
The leaks feel a bit like choreography between the league and the NFLPA so both sides look like they are serving their respective clientele and we end up with a pre-negotiated, compromised suspension for Deshaun Watson.
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DropKick
Footballguy
I'll admit that this is some conjecture here but... Watson is a young man who, as an elite athlete, has probably been coddled his whole life and this could lead to a sense of entitlement. He may truly believe there was nothing wrong with his advances (etc.). I recall the survivor contestant, Dan, who was ejected for inappropriate touching. It was amazing how he, when confronted with the accusation, seemed oblivious to his own actions.
This leads me to discount Watson's side of the story. Ultimately it boils down to his actions and, how far he went over the line. He created situations where he is (nearly?) unclothed and alone with the masseuse when he hits on her. I'm sure he got mixed results. I've seen a report that one masseuse, who did not sue, admits to having sex with Watson on three occasions. On the other hand, I doubt that this horny young man accepts that "no means no" when the reaction is negative.
With this many complaints, Watson won't prove innocence. We may be past the point of criminal charges so this, eventually, should get resolved civilly. I suspect the sticking points include the level of compensation as well as the victim's right to tell their stories or the insistence that Watson admit to his wrong doing. I could see this dragging out...
All that being said, I'm not sure how some of the accusations did NOT result in criminal charges. Watson has taken a hit to his reputation, lost sponsorships and missed a season but has also signed a huge contract. The Browns, despite the turmoil, took him on because the QB position is key to success in the NFL. The NFL has had many other bad boys and, with few exceptions, the ability to play trumps all.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Pete Smith seems to get it. There has to be a compromise on both sides.
Imagine this is appealed and lawyers dig back the Kraft stuff (and you know they'll use it, and so does the league)... They'll bring it all back up to the surface, and the MANY folks who maybe were too young or the outrage then wasn't as grand, will take note and say "waaaaait a minute"....
The punishment will serve both sides, it's logical. And I think Gruden's case may also play into this as well... the league losing that appeal means a LOT of unsavory info about the league will come out once again. Do they want to be double fisted? Probably not.
6-8 seems right.
Imagine this is appealed and lawyers dig back the Kraft stuff (and you know they'll use it, and so does the league)... They'll bring it all back up to the surface, and the MANY folks who maybe were too young or the outrage then wasn't as grand, will take note and say "waaaaait a minute"....
The punishment will serve both sides, it's logical. And I think Gruden's case may also play into this as well... the league losing that appeal means a LOT of unsavory info about the league will come out once again. Do they want to be double fisted? Probably not.
6-8 seems right.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think I said 6-8 from the beginning and while more has come to light since, it still sounds right to me.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
NFLPA is a relatively weak union, and they negotiated the rules that allow the NFL to mete out any punishment they want.
Pete Smith might have a great point. He might be 100% right about what the league *should* do.
But I’m not buying that there’s a secret prearranged “both sides feel good” deal that’s already been in the works. That sounds like NFL fan fiction and a pocket full of wishes for Browns fans/Watson shareholders.
If the league wants to suspend Watson for a year, they will. As for Pete’s rationale of “a year suspension helps the Browns”, to me that’s the #1 reason they *would* suspend him for a year. The league is looking at every aspect of this, likely including how they can help the Browns ownership best weather the storm.
This is about punishing Watson. why would the league want to punish the Browns?
I’ve been on the “8 reduced to 6” train from the jump, but at this point, with additional cases coming out, a year seems plausible. We’ll see what happens.
Pete Smith might have a great point. He might be 100% right about what the league *should* do.
But I’m not buying that there’s a secret prearranged “both sides feel good” deal that’s already been in the works. That sounds like NFL fan fiction and a pocket full of wishes for Browns fans/Watson shareholders.
If the league wants to suspend Watson for a year, they will. As for Pete’s rationale of “a year suspension helps the Browns”, to me that’s the #1 reason they *would* suspend him for a year. The league is looking at every aspect of this, likely including how they can help the Browns ownership best weather the storm.
This is about punishing Watson. why would the league want to punish the Browns?
I’ve been on the “8 reduced to 6” train from the jump, but at this point, with additional cases coming out, a year seems plausible. We’ll see what happens.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The threat that the NFLPA made to bring up past indiscretions of the NFL is a primary concern of the league.
The league has successfully gaslighted stories, but some came out like the concussion CTE/scandal. Cost them nearly a billion and counting. They do not like unsavory stories coming out.
Smith 'speculation' that the league and the NFLPA have been in negotiations over the suspension 'seems' plausible.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
In the negotiating category, I can see the league offering a take it or leave it, one year suspension with no appeal and no further punishment. Or Watson can not accept it and the league adds on language that states “based on their investigation so far” and “subject to additional discipline.” Basically, sit for a year and be done or open yourself up to missing more games. Even with the new structure of the CBA, that doesn’t mean both sides have to let things get through arbitration, appeals, etc.
That's about where I am/was too.
At this point, from a football only standpoint, I'll just say, I feel like the Browns should have just stayed the course with Mayfield, and the Texans may have pulled off the best trade of the last 20 years.
If Watson does miss all season, and the Browns are forced to start Brisset in the loaded AFC, the Texans are getting a top-10 pick in 2023, maybe top-6, and Watson, being 2 years removed from last playing, might be a shell of his former self, with a ton of baggage hanging over every snap he takes.
massraider
Footballguy
I read this in the Danny Snyder thread, like he was going to air a bunch of dirt if he wasn't happy.
Where's this coming from?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
How many people do you know that have logged 66 massages inside of 17 months? Even Robert Kraft has to stand back in awe of that.
Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
Isn’t that one a week average or just about? A lot for normal people but I don’t know if that is a lot for a professional athlete?
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
I thought it was 66 massage therapists, not 66 massages.
massraider
Footballguy
I have multiple people I know that get a massage once a week. 66 in a year and a half is completely reasonable
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I think the variance is in play here, most would settle on the one or two that are doing the best sports massage.
massraider
Footballguy
Copy that.
I think it's a weird thing to get hung up on. One doesn't need to point to 66 different masseuse (masseuses? Meeses?) as a sign of guilt. It's the 24 that all agree he's a sketchy creeper, THAT'S the sign.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I believe this is the case. It’s massages from at least 66 massage therapists on 17 months. I am sure some of them were utilized more than once. I do not recall seeing the total number of massages he received being reported.
Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
This has been brought up multiple times. It is a very common practice by every team in the league to structure players contracts in this fashion. Most likely has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
No way, seriously? 66 different women, for sure i thought some of these women saw him more than once, I must be so naive.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
How many are due $230M guaranteed?
He's in complete rare air and I'm not going to take any offense to those that want to try and defend him but the evidence is overwhelming and a lot of folks that get paid big money to report on these things seem to feel Watson is deserving of a lengthy punishment.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Greetings old friend, thanks for the post.
I'm not a lawyer and neither is Rich Eisen, it's just one of those things.
-I am not going to debate folks from Cleveland, you/they have suffered enough. I don't hold the fan base responsible for the ludicrous $230M given to Watson, desperation knows very few boundaries. Miami was just as close as anyone trading for him so the moral compass of MOST owners doesn't point to 12:00 North so please have mercy on me, I'm not against anyone posting in here.
-But optics, facts, reality says that things are not going to end well for Watson and Cleveland in 2022, and if they don't get this cleaned up soon, they risk carrying part of this or more into 2023. That's sorta the reality of where we are no matter who writes segments from the CBA, etc...it's really not for most of us to judge, it never has been. Goodell is going to drop his gavel and just like in moments past we're not going to like it, most of us.
-He suspended Brady for 4 games, a full 1/4 of the season over some air in the football...hard to imagine Watson getting a light suspension.
Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
I wasn’t defending him.How many are due $230M guaranteed?
He's in complete rare air and I'm not going to take any offense to those that want to try and defend him but the evidence is overwhelming and a lot of folks that get paid big money to report on these things seem to feel Watson is deserving of a lengthy punishment.
There are probably some guys that get paid big money that think he is not going to face a big suspension. They are all guessing. Some are educated guesses but no one knows. Someone will be right and someone will be wrong.
It doesn’t matter if he makes 230 million or 130 million or 30 million. The point I was making and that has been made each time someone brings up the scenario of him or the Browns protecting his money because of the impending suspension is almost certainly NOT accurate. Every team in the league does this with contracts of all sorts. Browns have done this with Amari Cooper and I believe Denzel Ward this year with their new contracts.
"More than once" discussion could be what Deshaun's attorney wants to be brought up.
If the massage was such a traumatic horrible incident, why did you take him as a client again? OR of course it could be a few massages made him feel comfortable and brought the creep out in him.
Really an interesting twist
If the massage was such a traumatic horrible incident, why did you take him as a client again? OR of course it could be a few massages made him feel comfortable and brought the creep out in him.
Really an interesting twist
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Would Robert Kraft still be the owner of the Patriots if he had been linked to 66 pleasant afternoons over 17 months?
Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
Are you saying there were 66 massages in question of inappropriate conduct or 66 massages in 17 months?Would Robert Kraft still be the owner of the Patriots if he had been linked to 66 pleasant afternoons over 17 months?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Since you posted this, i feel comfortable in posting or paraphrasing Rich Eisen again, this week he mentioned on his show that 18 of these 22 going back to Oct last year when Miami wanted him, 18 were willing to settle for 100K but Watson wanted all or nothing.
-Eisen brought up and is worth noting that NONE of those 18 women have fallen out of rank or file screaming about "Where's my money?" and his larger point was if these women were coaxed into the attorney making a commercial out of squeezing money form Watson, we would have heard about it by now. It's hard to keep everyone on the same page in these type of lawsuits, i encourage folks to stream some of Eisen's clips on Youtube, I found them pretty interesting this week.
Good post Bri
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Some did. Per NYT: 66 different women. So there were more than 66 massages.
https://www.nytimes.com/article/deshaun-watson-sexual-assault-lawsuit.html
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
"Are you saying"...honestly are you kidding me? I don't make this stuff up, it came out this week he has been linked to 66 where he was telling them it was 40 or whatever absurd number.
I'm not looking for disciples. If some of you feel Watson did nothing wrong or want to defend him, be my guest. I am not trying to shut down anyone wanting to post things they feel are important. That's mostly what we have here in recent days/weeks...this is a tough topic we're forced into, just being blunt. And I don't want to pour gasoline on it, it's not fair to the Browns fans here.
Here is what is posted in the The Atlantic...verbatim
Content warning: This story contains details about alleged sexual abuse. The content may be difficult to read and emotionally upsetting.
Despite publicly saying he worked with about 40 massage therapists, Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson booked massage appointments with 66 women from 2019 through 2021, according to a report from the New York Times.
The report contains accounts from some of those therapists that suggest the quarterback, who's currently facing 24 active civil lawsuits accusing him of sexual assault and sexual misconduct, engaged in questionable behavior when seeking massages.
The 24 plaintiffs' attorney Tony Buzbee said, in a statement released Wednesday, that the Houston Texans were being added to the suits.
"Based on what we have learned from the Houston Police Department, we will soon be joining the Houston Texans organization and others as defendants in the ongoing lawsuits against Deshaun Watson," the statement reads.
According to the New York Times, Watson asked several of the therapists to sign an N.D.A. he received from a Houston Texans staff member, and in his deposition he said the team arranged for some of the massages to happen at "a place" at The Houstonian. Per the Times, "he used the fitness club, dined there and also set up massages in hotel rooms."
Buzbee cited those details and said the team "facilitated Deshaun Watson's conduct."
"In many cases the Texans provided an opportunity for this conduct to occur," the statement reads. "We believe the Texans organization was well aware of Watson's issues, but failed to act. They knew or certainly should've known."
The Texans told the NYT via a statement that they first learned of the allegations against Watson in March 2021, have cooperated with investigators and "will continue to do so."
Tuesday's report also contained the account of one woman who said Watson purchased 30 bottles of her $40 skin cleanser, and had a few appointments with the quarterback during the summer of 2020. She told the Times that when Watson booked an appointment she told him she was licensed only to give him a back facial.
However, during the sessions, Watson got fully undressed and directed her toward his groin. She told the Times there was no sexual contact, but she believed that he was seeking more than a professional massage.
Watson, who sat out last season while on the Texans' roster, has denied any wrongdoing and said any sexual encounters with the women suing him were consensual. Grand juries in Harris County and Brazoria County declined to indict Watson.
Watson signed a fully guaranteed five-year, $230 million contract with the Browns as part of his trade to Cleveland. One of Watson's accusers, Ashley Solis, said in a recent segment on HBO's "Real Sports" that the contract is "like a big screw you."
Watson met with NFL officials earlier this month. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said last week the league is nearing the end of its investigation into Watson, though he did not offer a timeline on when to expect a disciplinary ruling.
-Just posting what has already been written. You can judge for yourself.
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Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
First of all, relax! I’m not trying to argue with you! Most of what I know about this case, I get from this site, this thread. I honestly have not read any articles on this matter in about a month. I was only asking a legitimate question about something you posted. Trust me, I’m not looking to be your disciple or anyone else’s.
The latest I had heard is there are 24 complaints against him. I was asking you if there really were “66 massages”, “66 masseuses” or “66 complaints” over a 17 month period of time.
If it 66 massages over 17 months, I really don’t think that is a crazy number for a professional athlete. If it was 66 masseuses, that’s definitely extreme. Etc.
Carry on sir! I’ll leave you be.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
My bad, I understand what your saying, that's why I posted the Atlantic article in my last post.
=The whole thing is just icky and seems unfair for the City of Cleveland/fans/regular folks EXCEPT the owner did give hm $230M...Watson literally got a RAISE by sitting out last year AND being accused of sexual assault/misconduct, it's embarrassing or should be for most NFL fans.
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foxco
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
I don't see anyone defending his actions. Most are speculating about how this might play out.
daveR
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Really? Do you know the Robert Kraft story?
He arraigned for a 'massage' at the upscale hotel he was staying at but they were booked so he booked 'massages' for his 8 man team who wanted to 'celebrate' the Patriots playoff win.
All 8 were caught ON TAPE entering the 'spa', smiling and joking with arms raised like an NFL referee signaling a successful kick. Then according to police reports the women serviced the men, orally and with hands to their genitals and ######'. Get that mental picture in your head.
That very night Robert Kraft arranged yet ANOTHER massage at the same spa. When he showed up the police notified him he and his entire 8-man team had been caught ON TAPE. At that point Robert Kraft turned to the officer and said.
'Do you know who I am?'
In the span of less than 24 hours Robert Kraft arranged 3 massages for himself and at least an additional 8 'massages' for his team for a grand total of 11 massages in less than 24 hours.
Robert Kraft is the 'rub and tug' queen.
The funny part is, even though he was caught ON TAPE gettinng a hand job Robert Kraft wasn't booked, wasn't charged, served no time, got off without any public investigation because 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?' got his tape declared inadmissable in court because 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM' or 'Mr. 11 BOOKED MASSAGES IN LESS THAN 24 HOURS' got his tape and the tapes of his 'ORAL, HAND, and ANALLY' serviced team removed from prosecution.
The hystercial part of 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM ROBERT KRAFT THE RUB AND TUG QUEEN' is he got the women who serviced him fined TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.
The NFL didn't punish 'DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM' the 'RUB AND TUG QUEEN ROBERT KRAFT' at all. Nothing.
No suspension,
No fines.
Why?
DO YOU KNOW WHO HE IS?
11 booked massages in less than 24 hours the rub and tug queen that is who he is.
Yep, yer right. Watson has nothing on Robert Kraft.
11 massages booked in less than 24 hours that is a clip of over 4,000 massages per year. No criminal charges, no trials, no time served, no punishment from the league, no public outcry.
TheWinz
Footballguy
Did Kraft himself get 11 "massages" in one day, and over 4K in a year? You sure are making it sound like that for dramatic effect. Also, I am not familiar with the case, but did any of Kraft's victims say he did anything they disapproved of?
By the way, I am a Patriots hater and would love to see Kraft jailed, but it sounds like Kraft went to hookers and Watson went to "not" hookers. Big difference.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Oh my gosh. You are absolutely correct. You are soo right to be furious at that mistake.
Robert Kraft only booked 3 massages for himself in less than 24 hours for a clip of over 1,000 'massages' personal 'massages' per year.
We can only go on the actual number of 'massages' that we know of that he personally booked so you are right.
He may have booked MORE personal 'massages'.
Glad you pointed out 'THE RUB AND TUG QUEEN' 'could' have booked much more. You are so right to be furious about that, lol. ROBERT KRAFT as an example of Internet outrage is classic.
TheWinz
Footballguy
I am not furious at your "mistake". I was just pointing out that you were trying to make it sound like he booked 4K massages for himself in a year. Another thing you did was extrapolate for no reason. If I eat a cheeseburger in 5 minutes, would you say I ate 1 cheeseburger in 5 minutes, or would you say I eat cheeseburgers at a clip of 105,120 per year?
Also, you never answered whether or not Kraft's victims were willing participants. As I said, I truly don't know, and was really asking if you knew.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yes Kraft went to a message parlor where that “extra” was the norm.
What he did was Illegal but there weren’t any “victims” unless you want to extrapolate into him being part of the sex worker trade by participating and supporting it.
ETA: what some in here keep failing to acknowledge for whatever reason is that many of Watsons accusers claim that they were legit message therapists that he “forced” himself on.
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daveR
Footballguy
Except that he's not making the rulings anymore. So, instead of the old ways of the commish being both the owners' rep AND king of discipline, he must adhere (mostly) to the independent judge's ruling. If I understand, it'll look a lot like a court case where the league will present things and ask for a "sentence", while Watson's legal team will present counter arguments. IMO, this is a precedent setting case for a new system. It remains to be seen how hard everyone wants to pursue it, but certainly asking for year-long (or, even permanent) suspension makes sense from the standpoint of those presenting the case. Shoot for the stars & settle for the moon.
TheWinz
Footballguy
Agreed. There are 2 different occupations here - massage therapist and hooker. A massage therapist who provides the "extra" service is a hooker; not a massage therapist. Kraft visited hookers. Watson visited massage therapists (but some of them may have been hookers, for all I know).
ghostguy123
Footballguy
You are forgetting about the whole "consent" part.
Had Watson had 66 paid for rub and tugs he probably wouldn't be in any trouble and very well would not face any league discipline.
-OZ-
Footballguy
And that, is the entire difference. Although had Kraft been a player he most likely would have been suspended for a while.
daveR
Footballguy
You are right. I am not convinced that there was force involved. In fact, I don't remember that being an accusation even. This is the point on which things turn and I (we) will never know the truth. We can speculate and try to reconstruct the scene, but there will always be questions unless both sides publicly agree. Personally, I can't construct the scene wherein the therapist is completely naïve, unaware, devoted to her craft to such an extent that she can do it without arousal, yet helpless to decline his suggestions. It seems to me that such a person is strong and weak, aware and naïve, willing and unwilling, etc. That is, the person described would be four people. Again, I want to be clear that this is my personal assessment and (as ever) I could be completely out in left field.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Sorry but your misinterpreting “forced” too literally- that’s why it was in quotes. As to the rest of your post - once again I’m at a loss on your perspective.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I did not write that...I posted a story form the Atlantic, I keep getting quoted which is fine but I didn't actually write that, agree that it doesn't make a whole lotta sense, that section/sentence you quote.
